The Hazards of Belief

Galvasean

kiffer wrote: »

1 in 5 women reported sexual contact before the age of 17... Then by the next paragraph sexual contact becomes abuse... How do the define abuse?

To be blunt I don't count sex between 'consenting' 16 year olds as being anything close to child abuse... I've a funny feeling this site might count it as such

I was thinking along these lines myself. Those numbers quoted in the site look incredibly high.

Flamed Diving

Dades wrote: »

^^ I don't believe those statistics. ^^

As in, I question their validity.

'Afourist'

Stercus Accidit

Jakkass wrote: »

Your basically saying, accept the study as it says without thinking about the finer detail.

I'm more concerned with the instant cynicism you met the claims with, it reminded me very much of how it used to be with these accusations, and how that worked out.
Fair enough, look into the study more before jumping to conclusions, but saying the claims are bogus or implying they are is also a conclusion.
You may argue you weren't jumping to any conclusions but it was clear you were defending the organisations in question, by casting doubt on the study, without good reason.

pH's article also shows us in detail how the churches and the synagogues in the USA have put measures in place to stop this from happening in their churches again. Isn't that to be praised?

About bloody time more like.

I'm quite aware that this has happened in the past, I question the figures and their accuracy nonetheless.

Aye question them, but don't imply they are bogus before those questions are answered.

As for "the church", what church, this study includes numerous different denominations.

Any church, I don't hold any in higher regard than another.

As would I, I hardly support adultery.

Just as long as any sexual activities (not necessarily adultery) was consenting and not based on an exploitation of position of power/influence. Really, until the forced celibacy is removed from the churches that enforce it, unnatural sexual behaviour will occur. I think it was Freud who said that the only unnatural sexual activity is no sexual activity.

Read the article. Please just do.

I made a statement with consideration to an extreme example outside of the scope of the article, fair enough, not completely relevant to the article.

Most already do cooperate with the police and authorities.

All of them already should be, I won't criticise them for doing so but I won't be singing their praises either for doing the bog standard bare minimum right thing that should always have been the case.

Why do you assume that I am supportive of this? I'm not here to defend the Catholic Church and their involvement in child abuse.

1 in 33 is actually quite low in comparison. It shouldn't be happening at all, but the churches in the US seem to be getting their acts together to deal with it.

Considering that 1 in 4 females in Ireland are sexually abused as children, this rate is very good.

I don't assume that, again I went to an extreme example not related directly to the churches in the article, fair point, but the underlying issues that lead to abuses of power of any kind all come back to a lack of transparency, and in the past the stigma of making an accusation, and the immunity and protection offered by churches to their members, combined again, with the unnatural life of celibacy imposed on many of them.
Sure, its a good thing that there is now greater protections in place, but I will still maintain that these are just moderation of the existing problem, and a forced and delayed reaction, with much of the damage already done.

robindch

Seems that the Mississippi Department of Human Services runs a number of no-sex-please-we're-Mississippians! events each year. This year, at the largest of these events, the state ran a competition to find the best "abstinence-only cheer". More from Arianna here, including a video:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sexual-justice/god-and-abstinence_b_213462.html

The winner was a team which cheered to tune of "Stop, don't touch me there! You know this is my no-no square".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8299991.stm

Two people have been reported dead and about 19 others taken to hospital after being overcome while in a sauna-like room at a spiritual retreat in Arizona.

Police said about 50 people were in a so-called "sweatbox" structure at the Angel Valley resort for about two hours before many became ill, reports say.

A Yavapai County sheriff's office spokesman said the two people who died were a middle-aged man and woman.

Police are investigating what may have happened, the Associated Press reports.

Homicide detectives are working to determine whether any criminal factors may have been a factor in the incident, AP quotes sheriff's spokesman Dwight D'Evelyn as saying.

Twenty-one people were taken by ambulance and helicopter to hospital on Thursday night, he said.

Two people were listed as being in a critical condition on Friday. Half a dozen others were said to have been discharged.

The 70-acre retreat near the town of Sedona, about 115 miles (185km) north of Phoenix, offers holistic treatments and spiritual retreats in a natural setting, according to its website.

According to local news reports, the sweatbox structure comprised a dome-shaped frame covered by tarpaulins and blankets, with steam generated by pouring water on to hot rocks.

The sweatbox is used in rituals by some Native American cultures.

kiffer

Deleted User wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8299991.stm

Hazards of saunas?

ZorbaTehZ

A man is facing the death penalty in Texas, after jurors in trial consulted the bible... yes, you read that correctly THE ****ING BIBLE!!!!!!!

http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?id=ENGNAU2009100913472

The passage in question is Numbers 35:16:

"And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death"

which apparently is relevant because he has been accused of striking the dead person with the butt of a rifle after shooting him.

.... :eek:

robindch

The "Quiverfull" families in the USA are producing kids at unbelievable rates, motivated by biblical instruction. It'll be interesting to see if this propagates down the generations, but at this rate, they'll overrun the USA within a century or two.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8287740.stm

With 10 and more kids around, you'd wonder how much one-on-one time any of them get with their parents.

Galvasean

robindch wrote: »

The "Quiverfull" families in the USA are producing kids at unbelievable rates, motivated by biblical instruction. It'll be interesting to see if this propagates down the generations, but at this rate, they'll overrun the USA within a century or two.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8287740.stm

With 10 and more kids around, you'd wonder how much one-on-one time any of them get with their parents.

From what I can tell their logic seems to be 'have enough kids and one is likely to be a success'.
I can forsee the lak of 'one-to-one time' leading to a high lebel of 'drop outs'

robindch

Galvasean wrote: »

I can forsee the lak of 'one-to-one time' leading to a high lebel of 'drop outs'

Maybe, but I wouldn't be sure. Personally, I'd expect them to be better than average at integrating with peer groups, and from that, perhaps better adapted to getting ahead in society at large? Who knows?

Anyhow, I hope some sociology department is following them generation-on-generation all the same. Should make interesting reading in a few hundred years!

Turtwig

What scares me the most is that each of these kids will have the right to vote and if these families produce more offspring than any other demograph. Fundie voting power and influence will grow, not a good thing.:(

pH

What can happen when your deeply held religious convictions cause you to complain about them sodomites.


Pauline Howe, a 67-year-old grandmother, was questioned by police after council officials decided that her complaint about a gay pride march amounted to a "hate incident".

...

Mrs Howe referred to homosexuals as "sodomites" and blamed "their perverted sexual practice" for sexually transmitting diseases as well as the "downfall of every Empire".

She argues that she is not homophobic, but was expressing her deeply held religious beliefs.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/6424895/Pensioner-questioned-by-police-after-complaining-about-gay-pride-march.html#

Sam Vimes

MrPudding

Doesn't get much better:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8346378.stm

Praying to your imaginary friend and getting busted.

MrP

Galvasean

pH wrote: »

She argues that she is not homophobic, but was expressing her deeply held homophobic religious beliefs.

Fixed that.

Mena

All I can really say is :rolleyes:

Hospital sees increase in eye condition after Knock 'visions'

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/1202/1224259894300.html

Stercus Accidit

I'd sue Joe Coleman if I were them.

And I was damn well expecting this, lol tbh.

toiletduck

I was just gonna post that. A real shocker to be sure...

MrPudding

Shame they did not carry out an IQ testy at the same time. It would be interesting to see the results.

MrP

Genghiz Cohen

Mena wrote: »

All I can really say is :rolleyes:

Hospital sees increase in eye condition after Knock 'visions'

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/1202/1224259894300.html

There are none so blind as those who stare at the sun....

Galvasean

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

I'd sue Joe Coleman if I were them.

And I was damn well expecting this, lol tbh.

Love to say I told ya so.
I'm pretty sure I said the apparitions were a result of retina damage at the time.

Turtwig

Can I go one futher and postulate that, because ours eyes* are the best indicators at the amount of sunlight hitting us, these people will be more prone to skin cancers?

Stretching I know...but hey.

*Supposedly the eye is the main determinant of the level of defense against the sun the body should be at.

Galvasean

From today's Indo:
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/asia-pacific/rogue-elephant--on-a-rampage--kills-11-villagers-1969674.html

WILDLIFE officials in southern Nepal are hunting an elephant that has reportedly killed 11 people in the past two weeks, including one who was trying to worship it as an incarnation of Ganesh, the Hindu elephant god.

......

......

The elephant is also reported to have killed an 18-year-old man who tried to pray to it, and offered it a garland of flowers.

Flamed Diving

He angered Ganesh!

Dades

The elephant is also reported to have killed an 18-year-old man who tried to pray to it, and offered it a garland of flowers.

I couldn't help but think of the Darwin Awards after reading that article. :pac:

robindch

As a god, are you allowed to persecute your own believers in good faith?

Seems a tad shortsighted to me.

pts

Looks like Scientology's hatred of psychology has tragic consequences again:

Celebrity florist 'may have accidentally drowned daughter then killed herself'

5uspect

Ah Islam, the peace loving religion.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0102/breaking3.htm

GLaDOS

5uspect wrote: »

Ah Islam, the peace loving religion.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0102/breaking3.htm

Just stumbled across, this article, nothing new, but I thought it was nicely written, especially regarding religious tolerance

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/ian-odoherty/i-have-no-respect-or-tolerance-for-sharia-1235057.html

I have no respect or tolerance for Sharia



So the story gets more interesting. The so-called "Qatif Girl", the truly heroic woman who now faces 200 lashes after being gang-raped had more than just the authorities of this savage kingdom to worry about -- it has recently emerged that her own brother tried to kill her when he realised she had been repeatedly violated.

Here in the West, if a brother discovers his sister has just been gang-raped he will have murder on his mind, for sure, but it would be directed towards those responsible, not his sister.

But in the twisted world of male Islamic pride, the poor girl who had been through an experience so traumatic that it is actually impossible to even contemplate, the family's spurious "honour" maintained precedence.

Although a world where "honour" consists of killing a rape victim is a world where "honour" has a very different meaning from how we understand it.

And that sense of honour being besmirched is what has driven those charming Sudanese chaps to go completely mental at the "leniency" shown to Gillian Gibbons.

Once their Friday prayers to the most merciful Allah were over, they spent the day demanding that the woman -- who was surely misguided in going to such a backwards hell-hole in the first place -- be executed by firing squad.

But what has been particularly nauseating has been the British government's handling of the affair. According to the Foreign Office, they were "very disappointed" at the verdict.

Really? Why didn't they simply say that the next aid bundle to Sudan, worth nearly £200m, was off the table and if anything further happened to the woman then crippling sanctions would be applied?

But no, instead we got a load of mealy-mouthed rubbish about how this was a localised incident, that it didn't represent Islam and hopefully we can all hold hands and sing songs around the proverbial camp fire. But the problem is that this is representative of Islam.

Anywhere in the world where Sharia law is practised, such barbaric and disgusting practises take place on a regular basis.

Don't believe me? Well, Iran has been in the news for the most recent example of a woman being sentenced to death by stoning. But they are also partial to hanging gay people and women with too much attitude.

And they quite like a bit of eye-gouging as well, when the mood takes them, such as the woman who had her eyes gouged out in a public square because she fought off a man who tried to rape her. Check that out on the internet when you fancy losing your lunch.

Or what about precious little Palestine, where 50 women have been killed by their own families this year alone, and where the beating of women who aren't sufficiently "modest" is common under the fanatics of Hamas.

Or Afghanistan, where women are routinely raped and murdered by family and strangers with impunity? Or Chechnya? Or Somalia? Or anywhere Sharia is practised.

And yet we are constantly instructed by the multicultural, liberal, chattering classes to show "respect" and "tolerance" towards Muslims who want to practise their cultural heritage in Western countries.

Well, you know what? I don't have any respect or tolerance for not just the actions, but also the mentality.

And before you start to think that this is something that is happening thousands of miles away, refer yourself back to the case of Birmingham woman Banaz Mahmoud, who was kidnapped, raped and tortured by her uncles last year before being killed and buried in a suitcase. Her crime? She had a boyfriend. She was one of at least 12 women killed by their families in Britain last year to protect their "honour".

And before we start to think that these are isolated incidents by extremists, the Muslim Council of Britain, the supposed "moderate" wing of mainstream Islam, still claim that death is too good for Salman Rushdie and they regularly rail against gays.

Oh, and for the record, 40pc of British Muslims want Sharia to be instituted in Britain. Hardly a lunatic minority, surely?

While we don't have the same sort of problems here -- yet -- we still have a situation where Ali Selim, the chief spokesman for Irish Muslims and a supposed moderate, refuses to condemn Osama bin Laden, and thinks that what goes on with those two women in Sudan and Saudi are "internal matters" and none of our business.
And, of course, anyone who writes about this is immediately accused of being Islamophobic and racist.
Well, I am Islamophobic in the sense that I'm phobic towards the notion of treating women as third-class citizens, flogging people and killing them for having an independent thought.

I'm phobic towards the idea of killing Theo Van Gogh because he made a movie they didn't like. I'm phobic towards killing a Japanese translator because he worked on the Satanic Verses.

I'm also rather phobic to the notion that the Muslim world has the right to riot and kill each other because of a few unfunny cartoons in an obscure Danish publication.

As regards the spurious accusation of racism which is bandied about against anyone who criticises Islam, let me make this clear -- you cannot change the colour of your skin. Pigmentation is irrelevant. But you can dislike someone's superstition and in Islam's case, even among other superstitions, they are particularly horrible.

No, my Muslim friend, it's your religion and your Sharia law I am criticising. It has nothing to do with the colour of your skin. And you know what? In a free democracy we still have the right to say things like that.
- Ian O'Doherty

Dave!

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/01/10/malaysia.church.bombings/?imw=Y

2 more churches in Malaysia firebombed in 'Allah' row


(CNN) -- Two more churches in Malaysia were firebombed Sunday, bringing the total to six since a court ruled that non-Muslims can use the word "Allah" as a term for God.

No one has been hurt in the attacks, which began Friday. They follow a high court's ruling that Christians can use the word "Allah" in literature printed in the country's official language, Malay.

In Malay, the word for God is "Allah," as it is in Arabic.

But many in the predominantly Muslim country, including the government, believe the word should be exclusive to Islam.

The government has banned the use of the word in Christian literature, saying it is likely to confuse Muslims and draw them to Christianity.

It has also appealed the high court's ruling.

The bombings may be an attempt to intimidate judges to overturn the decision, said the Rev. Hermen Shastri, general secretary of the Council of Churches in Malaysia.

Political leaders from a range of parties deplored the attacks on the churches.
Video: Protests over 'Allah' ruling

Prime Minister Najib Razak visited one of the targeted churches on Saturday and called for calm.

Emphasizing his resolve to maintain ethnic and racial harmony in society, Najib also said the Muslim faith prohibits insulting other religions or destroying their sanctuaries.

In recent months, authorities in Malaysia have seized more than 20,000 Bibles because they refer to God as Allah.

The seizures have fed fears among minority groups, which see signs of encroaching Islamic fundamentalism in the predominantly Muslim but multiracial country.

A Roman Catholic weekly newspaper, The Herald, challenged the ban in court after the government threatened to revoke the newspaper's license for using the word in its Malay edition.

Hearings on the case went on for two years before the high court's ruling last week.

Malaysia has some of the tightest government restrictions on religion in the world, according to a study published last month by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life. The country was among the 10 most restrictive countries out of 175 in the survey.

But it had relatively low levels of social tension between religious groups, the report found. The Pew study covered events from mid-2006 to mid-2008.

Galvasean

The phrase, "Yo man, that is OUR word!" comes to mind.

Galvasean

Don't make deals with the devil, or else an earthquake will like, totally come and wreck your country about 200 years later.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2010/01/13/crimesider/entry6092717.shtml

Turtwig

Galvasean wrote: »

Don't make deals with the devil, or else an earthquake will like, totally come and wreck your country about 200 years later.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2010/01/13/crimesider/entry6092717.shtml

Didn't God make a deal with the Devil in the book of Job?

Flamed Diving

Malty_T wrote: »

Didn't God make a deal with the Devil in the book of Job?

Shhh...

GLaDOS

Wasn't sure where to post this, it's more the hazards of Atheism but thought it was an intresting insight into a typical American community

http://www.skepticmoney.com/is-rising-sun-high-school-filled-with-hate/

Galvasean

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Wasn't sure where to post this, it's more the hazards of Atheism but thought it was an intresting insight into a typical American community

http://www.skepticmoney.com/is-rising-sun-high-school-filled-with-hate/

I joined the guy's Facebook group:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&ref=search&gid=230219508056
Nice to see him getting support from around the world.

GLaDOS

Galvasean wrote: »

I joined the guy's Facebook group:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&ref=search&gid=230219508056
Nice to see him getting support from around the world.

Just joined it there too, I'm guessing you're the Sean from Ireland who left the comment

Galvasean

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Just joined it there too, I'm guessing you're the Sean from Ireland who left the comment

Complete and utter coincadence.

Turtwig

Galvasean wrote: »

Complete and utter coincadence.

Amazing coincidence too that he links to the palaeontology forum here on boards, JC'd be having a field day with all these coincidences.

Galvasean

I have fans now. Sweet.

Galvasean

It would seem the Egyptian football coach is selecting players based on their faith in Allah rather than playing abilities. That might explain why Mido, wideley regarded as one of Egypt's best players of recent years, can't get a game.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/egyptian-coachs-divine-selection-2016382.html

Shehata caused a stir this week by suggesting that his team selection is based on a player's religious motivations rather than his actual ability as a footballer, and that "pious behaviour" was his first priority when selecting his team.

"Without it, we will never select any player regardless of his potential," said Shehata. "I always strive to make sure that those who wear the Egypt jersey are on good terms with God."

Well, it seems to be working, having beaten Nigeria 3-1 they look set to qualify for the next round. A win against Mozambique would seal it with a game to spare.

sionnach

"I always strive to make sure that those who wear the Egypt jersey are on good terms with God."

Out of curiosity, how does he find out if players are on good terms with God? Does he know Joe Coleman?

ZorbaTehZ

robindch

Jesus blesses "precision aiming solutions" -- rifle sights to you and me.

Praise the Lord and pass the ammo belt!

ABC wrote:

U.S. Military Weapons Inscribed With Secret 'Jesus' Bible Codes

By JOSEPH RHEE, TAHMAN BRADLEY and BRIAN ROSS

Jan. 18, 2010 —

Coded references to New Testament Bible passages about Jesus Christ are inscribed on high-powered rifle sights provided to the United States military by a Michigan company, an ABC News investigation has found.

The sights are used by U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and in the training of Iraqi and Afghan soldiers. The maker of the sights, Trijicon, has a $660 million multi-year contract to provide up to 800,000 sights to the Marine Corps, and additional contracts to provide sights to the U.S. Army. U.S. military rules specifically prohibit the proselytizing of any religion in Iraq or Afghanistan and were drawn up in order to prevent criticism that the U.S. was embarked on a religious "Crusade" in its war against al Qaeda and Iraqi insurgents.

One of the citations on the gun sights, 2COR4:6, is an apparent reference to Second Corinthians 4:6 of the New Testament, which reads: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." Other references include citations from the books of Revelation, Matthew and John dealing with Jesus as "the light of the world." John 8:12, referred to on the gun sights as JN8:12, reads, "Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

Trijicon confirmed to ABCNews.com that it adds the biblical codes to the sights sold to the U.S. military. Tom Munson, director of sales and marketing for Trijicon, which is based in Wixom, Michigan, said the inscriptions "have always been there" and said there was nothing wrong or illegal with adding them. Munson said the issue was being raised by a group that is "not Christian." The company has said the practice began under its founder, Glyn Bindon, a devout Christian from South Africa who was killed in a 2003 plane crash.

'It violates the Constitution'

The company's vision is described on its Web site: "Guided by our values, we endeavor to have our products used wherever precision aiming solutions are required to protect individual freedom." "We believe that America is great when its people are good," says the Web site. "This goodness has been based on Biblical standards throughout our history, and we will strive to follow those morals."

Spokespeople for the U.S. Army and the Marine Corps both said their services were unaware of the biblical markings. They said officials were discussing what steps, if any, to take in the wake of the ABCNews.com report. It is not known how many Trijicon sights are currently in use by the U.S. military. The biblical references appear in the same type font and size as the model numbers on the company's Advanced Combat Optical Guides, called the ACOG.

A photo on a Department of Defense Web site shows Iraqi soldiers being trained by U.S. troops with a rifle equipped with the bible-coded sights. "It's wrong, it violates the Constitution, it violates a number of federal laws," said Michael "Mikey" Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, an advocacy group that seeks to preserve the separation of church and state in the military.

'Firearms of Jesus Christ'

"It allows the Mujahedeen, the Taliban, al Qaeda and the insurrectionists and jihadists to claim they're being shot by Jesus rifles," he said. Weinstein, an attorney and former Air Force officer, said many members of his group who currently serve in the military have complained about the markings on the sights. He also claims they've told him that commanders have referred to weapons with the sights as "spiritually transformed firearm of Jesus Christ." He said coded biblical inscriptions play into the hands of "those who are calling this a Crusade."

According to a government contracting watchdog group, fedspending.org, Trijicon had more than $100 million in government contracts in fiscal year 2008. The Michigan company won a $33 million Pentagon contract in July, 2009 for a new machine gun optic, according to Defense Industry Daily. The company's earnings from the U.S. military jumped significantly after 2005, when it won a $660 million long-term contract to supply the Marine Corps with sights.

"This is probably the best example of violation of the separation of church and state in this country," said Weinstein. "It's literally pushing fundamentalist Christianity at the point of a gun against the people that we're fighting. We're emboldening an enemy."

kiffer

I imagine that there would be a fair few Christians annoyed about that too...
Maybe they should write WWJD so that you can see it while you're taking aim...
Though that might reduce the effectiveness of the soldiers by too much, of course for some it may actually increase their kill rates... "WWJD? Send them to heaven/hell! Shoot'em all and let God sort them out."

also: Hi Guys, I'm back for a while, anything interesting come up while I was not around?

Sam Vimes

http://www.umc.org/site/apps/nlnet/content3.aspx?c=lwL4KnN1LtH&b=2072519&ct=7810241

His two friends died but he survived and he thanked god. I think that he should either give credit where it's due, to the people who dug him out, or they should throw him back under the rubble. Sure if god really has a plan for him he'll save him again right :rolleyes:

I honestly don't understand how people can walk down a street littered with bodies in a country where tens of thousands of people have just died and thank god because one guy was lucky where his friends weren't. If that's how god makes his perfectly moral decisions I'm more than happy to fall short of his "standard"

Dades

Saw that. If I was an aid worker I'd have covered him back up.

Galvasean

Dades wrote: »

Saw that. If I was an aid worker I'd have covered him back up.

Aha! The moderator of A&A finally lets slip his secret lust to kill all believers....

and we have it all on tape!

cavedave

Earthquake survivors get solar-powered bibles

"self-powered and can play the Bible in the jungle, desert or ... even on the moon!"
In space no one can hear you preach!

johnmacward

cavedave wrote: »

Earthquake survivors get solar-powered bibles

"self-powered and can play the Bible in the jungle, desert or ... even on the moon!"
In space no one can hear you preach!

Last part of that article...

With tens of thousands of Port-au-Prince residents living outdoors because their homes have collapsed or they fear aftershocks from last week's quake, the audio Bible can bring them "hope and comfort that comes from knowing God has not forgotten them through this tragedy", the group said."

According to several media reports most of us probably heard, many Haitian's believe the quake was caused BY God, in punishment for past sins, hence the above message is of use to them, they think the head man is pissed and he ain't remembering there goodness.

What's interesting is the kind of doubling up of religious beliefs. The solar bible crowd believe that God didn't cause it but was there for them at all times in spirit (a bit useless as it turns out), those Haitian's believe that in fact God was definitely there, angered and in turn caused the quake.

There's gonna be one hell of a fight when each party explains themselves.