The Hazards of Belief

Hotblack Desiato

It's 1948 and you're sick of 16 years of DeValera and FF kowtowing to the RCC. You vote for the opposition, for change...

Archives show deference of Seán MacBride to Vatican on foreign policy

MacBride, a founder of the radical republican group Saor Éire and a chief of staff of the IRA during the 1930s, was leader of Clann na Poblachta and minister for external affairs in the first inter-party government, which held office from 1948 until 1951.

His first action after his appointment in February 1948 was to draft a message from the government to Pope Pius XII. He sought and received the approval of his cabinet colleagues for the message to be sent in the name of taoiseach John A Costello.

The message read: “On the occasion of our assumption of office and our first cabinet meeting, my colleagues and myself desire to repose at the feet of Your Holiness the assurance of our filial loyalty and devotion as well as our firm resolve to be guided in all our work by the teaching of Christ and to strive for the attainment of a social order in Ireland based on Christian principles. John A. Costello. Prime Minister.”

It had been assumed until now that the message was sent on the initiative of Costello, who was a devout Catholic, but the archives show that it was drafted and dispatched at the behest of MacBride.

It would be of tremendous assistance if Your Grace could obtain the views of the Youth Unemployment Commission concerning the proposed stoppage of the emigration of young girls. Should the commission support the raising of the age to over 21, I would be delighted.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/irish-state-secretly-intervened-in-italian-1948-general-election-1.2002970

The equivalent of more than €2 million in today’s money was secretly channelled through the Irish embassy to the Vatican in an effort to influence the outcome of the Italian general election in 1948, according to documents in the archives of the department of external affairs to be published next week.

Previous generations would be astounded at attitudes to churches in Ireland today

RikuoAmero

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

snip

Wasn't Ireland broke in 1948? And yet somehow, we had the money to spend on covert operations to manipulate foreign democratic elections?

TwoShedsJackson

The message read: “On the occasion of our assumption of office and our first cabinet meeting, my colleagues and myself desire to repose at the feet of Your Holiness the assurance of our filial loyalty and devotion as well as our firm resolve to be guided in all our work by the teaching of Christ and to strive for the attainment of a social order in Ireland based on Christian principles. John A. Costello. Prime Minister.”

Mortifying. Surely even in 1948 Ireland that must have set a record for obsequiousness.

Brian Shanahan

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Wasn't Ireland broke in 1948? And yet somehow, we had the money to spend on covert operations to manipulate foreign democratic elections?

Probably came out of the share of that year's Marshall Aid budget given to Ireland. Remember it was in 1948 that the US extended the Plan to neutral countries like Ireland.

Vivisectus

Maybe we helped fund Gladio :P

recedite

..my colleagues and myself desire to repose at the feet of Your Holiness the assurance of our filial loyalty and devotion..

Strange, they have not asked to lick the soles of his holiness's shoes while reposing at his feet.
But I suppose they didn't dare to ask for too much on the first date :pac:

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

But I suppose they didn't dare to ask for too much on the first date :pac:

Them fellas would allow all-comers to kiss their ring though...

MrPudding

This just in. Pope still a cnut.

Please excuse the Daily Telegraph link.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11239702/Brittany-Maynards-mother-hits-back-at-Vaticans-criticism-of-physician-assisted-suicide.html

MrP

RikuoAmero

MrPudding wrote: »

This just in. Pope still a cnut.

Please excuse the Daily Telegraph link.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11239702/Brittany-Maynards-mother-hits-back-at-Vaticans-criticism-of-physician-assisted-suicide.html

MrP

Well of course they had to condemn her. If they didn't, that would mean that people aren't their god's playthings, their lives his to do with as he pleases. Nope, gotta spread the word that we're just puppets.

Vivisectus

I wonder what it is about pain and the degrading slow failure of your body and it's functions that the church considers so spiritually uplifting. I have seen terminal bowel cancer, and I completely failed to see what is compassionate, holy, or inspirational about excruciating pain and hourly nappy changes.

But then again, we are talking about a church that has a long history of approving and encouraging self-harm.

robindch

Vivisectus wrote: »

I wonder what it is about pain and the degrading slow failure of your body and it's functions that the church considers so spiritually uplifting. I have seen terminal bowel cancer, and I completely failed to see what is compassionate, holy, or inspirational about excruciating pain and hourly nappy changes.

The hardline catholic religious belief here is that the pain gives the believer an opportunity to "offer up the pain" for the expiation of the sins of the believer, the sins of other people and other items for which god can be supplicated.

Some catholics - I'm looking at you here, Popette - also believe, for example, that "involuntarily" handicapped people in the broadest sense (autistic, otherwise mentally handicapped, physically handicapped, pre-term natural abortions etc) are actually "catholics in spirit" as they are believed to have elected, before birth, to undergo what's perceived as a miserable life, or no life at all, for the same expiation-related reasons.

Hardline catholicism is a very cold place indeed.

kylith

robindch wrote: »

The hardline catholic religious belief here is that the pain gives the believer an opportunity to "offer up the pain" for the expiation of the sins of the believer, the sins of other people and other items for which god can be supplicated.

While Jesus sits up on the cloud wondering what he bothered becoming incarnate for if humans planning to suffer for their own sins. After all wasn't that supposed to be what he was for? To suffer for mankind's sins so we didn't have to?

Mr. CooL ICE

OT, but what does Popette actually mean? I keep seeing references in this forum, but googling says it's a young female music fan

TwoShedsJackson

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

OT, but what does Popette actually mean? I keep seeing references in this forum, but googling says it's a young female music fan

It's a hardline Catholic relative of robindch's, his aunt I think.

obplayer

ID Christian Faith-Healers: 12 Kids Died Since 2011, No One Doing Anything

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ir6kSN_Q4us

robindch

Somebody with a chip on their shoulder, an angle grinder and a very, very long extension lead went for a midnight climb near Killarney last night:

http://www.thejournal.ie/cross-carrauntoohil-cut-down-1794036-Nov2014

.

Hotblack Desiato

A dreadful act of cultural vandalism, by self-serving morons seeking to impose their blinkered ideology upon society.





The erection of the cross in the first place, I mean...

Nodin

robindch wrote: »

Somebody with a chip on their shoulder, an angle grinder and a very, very long extension lead went for a midnight climb near Killarney last night:

http://www.thejournal.ie/cross-carrauntoohil-cut-down-1794036-Nov2014

.

Anyone know why this cross, of the many in the country, was singled out?

Hotblack Desiato

Anyone know why any of our national peaks were desecrated by crosses without planning permission in the first place?

No reason to pick this one apart from it's the highest peak in Ireland, and it's a good start...

Pherekydes

Next stop, the Phoenix Park.

Kivaro

Nodin wrote: »

Anyone know why this cross, of the many in the country, was singled out?

Wait a second.
Isn't this location very near where that idiot county councillor wanted a cross in the council chambers in Killarney?

Maybe this same idiot couldn't get the cross down the hill after cutting it down.

Hotblack Desiato

Kivaro wrote: »

Wait a second.
Isn't this location very near where that idiot county councillor wanted a cross in the council chambers in Killarney?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/cross-on-summit-of-carrauntoohil-cut-down-1.2011907

Mr Culloty said Christianity and Catholicism was the religion of the majority of the people and references to it were enshrined in the Constitution.

But he claimed both the Taoiseach and the President had last Christmas made speeches without reference to God, making it “very clear what is coming down the tracks”. This he explained was a reference to the State moving away from its Christian ethos and people having “to give up everything in an attempt to become secular”.

He said he saw the removal of the cross as part of a drive to “allow what is not normal and to become normal”. He said he meant abortion, gay marriage and “assisted dying” as issues which were not normal.

Mr Culloty said it was his job to promote his faith “in a respectful way” and the special place of Christianity and Catholicism would not be removed from Irish life until the people of Ireland ever choose to change the constitution and honour “the Koran” or any other religious symbol in place of the cross.

Seems he can't comprehend the idea that a constitution doesn't need to 'honour' a religion at all... and shouldn't.

PopePalpatine

Jaysus, he sounds like one of the far-right headbangers from t'udder forum.

RikuoAmero

I just don't get it. So that guy, Cullotty, would be fine with Ireland having any religion enshrined in the constitution, even if it's a false religion from his point of view...but to remove religion entirely and have no mention of it? Oh no, can't have that!

the_monkey

So Katie Taylor thanks God again for her victory --- yep thats right Katie , God let's ISIS murder all those men,women and children - but he steps in to make sure you win a "let's see who can cause the max brain damage" contest.

PopePalpatine

Turkey looks as if it's off my list of holiday destinations for the time being: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30183711

Hotblack Desiato

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/crumlin-referrals-for-embryo-screening-halted-on-legal-advice-1.2012400

Our Lady’s Children’s Hospital in Crumlin, Dublin, stopped referring patients abroad for a controversial reproductive treatment after receiving legal advice that the referrals could be unconstitutional.

Staff at the National Centre for Medical Genetics, which is based at Crumlin, had to cease direct referrals for pre-implantation genetic diagnosis (PGD), though they are allowed to provide patients with information about services overseas.

PGD is used in conjunction with IVF to screen embryos for genetic disorders. Only those embryos diagnosed as free of a specific disorder are implanted into a woman to try to achieve a pregnancy. Controversially, the embryos that are not implanted in the woman are destroyed.

The centre stopped referring women abroad in 2006 and still adheres to this policy, even though two private clinics in the Republic have since been licensed to sample embryos as part of a PGD service.

The centre is under the governance of the hospital, which is chaired by the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin. Staff say the current chairman, Dr Diarmuid Martin, who has been in place since 2004, has never interfered in the centre’s work.

robindch

A creationist visits Chicago's Science Museum. Multifacepalmage ensues.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/11/24/christian-fundamentalist-goes-science-museum-audit-its-liberal-bias-makes-ass-self-video/

One eyed Jack

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/crumlin-referrals-for-embryo-screening-halted-on-legal-advice-1.2012400

Read the article, and this bit jumped out at me -

Mr Murphy reviewed documentation from Guy’s and St Thomas’s Hospital in London, a leader in the field, and came to the conclusion that PGD “inevitably and necessarily involves the destruction of human embryos”.

The destruction of embryos in this process would be unlawful in Ireland and would appear to involve a violation of Article 40.3.3 of the Constitution on the right to life, he advised.

I'm wondering did Mr. Murphy review the case of Roche -v- Roche & ors (2009) in coming to his conclusion?

Hotblack Desiato

From the judgement:

2. I am also satisfied that the frozen embryos do not enjoy the protection of the guarantees provided to the right to life of the unborn by Article 40.3.3 of the Constitution. I agree, for the reasons given in the judgments of Hardiman J. and Geoghegan J. that Article 40.3.3 does not extend to or include frozen embryos which have not been implanted. I do not think that the constitutional provision should be considered only as being intended to reinforce the effect of section 58 of the Offences against the Person Act, 1861. The people, in adopting the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution employed distinct, new and independent language.

In any case if the embryos are being sent to the UK for testing, wouldn't any destruction be taking place there? (although there are now clinics doing the testing here. Was thinking of another unrelated article I read today)

Brian Shanahan

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Read the article, and this bit jumped out at me -





I'm wondering did Mr. Murphy review the case of Roche -v- Roche & ors (2009) in coming to his conclusion?

So, basicly, what we have here is a pro-life fundie institution making a decision based on a man talking out of his rear end. Quelle suprise.

Sacksian

Feel free to move if it's not in the correct thread.

Basically, actor gets 26-years for possibly offending religious people. Not sure how binding the sentence is, as it seems to only apply in the region it was handed down.

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/nov/27/bollywood-veena-malik-sentenced-26-years-jail-religious-blasphemy-wedding

The actor Veena Malik has expressed anger at a 26-year jail term handed down by a Pakistani court after she acted in a scene loosely based on the marriage of the prophet Muhammad’s daughter.

The same sentence was extended to her husband, and to Mir Shakil-ur-Rahman, owner of the Jang-Geo media group which broadcast the TV show. All three were ordered to surrender their passports and fined 3m rupees (£8,000).

The offending scene involved Malik re-enacting her own wedding to businessman Asad Bashir Khan while a religious song played in the background.

SebBerkovich

robindch wrote: »

A creationist visits Chicago's Science Museum. Multifacepalmage ensues.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/11/24/christian-fundamentalist-goes-science-museum-audit-its-liberal-bias-makes-ass-self-video/

I managed about 36 seconds and from that i've learned that people need to push the boundaries a little more when doing parodies of right-wing creationists they're starting to embody the current parodies.

robindch

The American Atheists are launching a christmas campaign which seems designed specifically to get up the noses of the religious. Can't wait to see how this will go down. Or more likely up. In smoke.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11265926/American-Atheists-launch-provocative-campaign-in-religious-Deep-South.html

Daily Terrorgraph wrote:

Atheist activists are taking their campaigns to the Bible Belt this Christmas with a provocative billboard campaign that is expected to stir controversy in America's religious heartlands. The giant advertising hoardings in the Tennessee cities of Memphis, Nashville, St. Louis and Fort Smith, Arkansas show a mischievous-looking young girl writing her letter to Father Christmas: "Dear Santa, All I want for Christmas is to skip church! I'm too old for fairy tales," she writes.

The advertising campaign by the American Atheists group will run until Christmas Eve and is the first time the group has aimed its anti-God adverts directly at residential religious areas, having previously targeted urban audiences in big venues such as Times Square in New York. "Today's adults have no obligation to pretend to believe the lies their parents believed. It's OK to admit that your parents were wrong about God, and it's definitely OK to tell your children the truth," said David Silverman, the group's president, as he launched the campaign.

In a sign of the hostility the adverts are expected to generate, American Atheists said that it had failed secure a single billboard site in Jackson, Mississippi after leasing companies collectively refused to offer space, fearing a community backlash. "The fact that billboard companies would turn away business because they are so concerned about the reaction by the community shows just how much education and activism on behalf of atheists is needed in the South," added Danielle Muscato, the group's spokesperson.

America remains deeply religious relative to Europe, with not a single self-professed atheist among the 535 members of the US Congress. US presidential candidates are also expected to believe in God. However recent social surveys have shown a sharp rise in religious non-affiliation among young people, accompanied by a decline in attendance among mainstream Anglican, Episcopalian and Catholic churches over the past 30 years. According to the Pew research group, one third of Americans aged 18 to 29 now say they have "no religious affiliation", compared with less than 10 per cent of their grandparents' generation.

At the same time, America has seen a rise in the number of so-called "mega churches" where mostly Evangelical congregations of 10,000 or more worship with rock bands and charismatic preachers in converted baseball stadiums and other large venues. However recent research by Mark Chaves, a divinity and sociology professor at Duke University and author of "America Religion: Contemporary Trends", has indicated that Evangelical groups could now be succumbing to the same forces of secularisation as other churches. Using data from the University of Chicago's General Social Survey, Prof Chaves discovered that among White Evangelicals born in the decade 1981-90, some 22 per cent now say they have no religion, a figure close to the 24 per cent of mainstream Protestants born in the same decade who said the same.

The Black Oil

Pakistan - militants and government incompetence doing their best to hinder immunisation against polio.

Many people here think the polio vaccination campaign is a western conspiracy to sterilise their children - it's an idea the Taliban have been putting about for 10 years now.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-30133279

robindch

Hoist with his own petar', a popular, fundamentalist preacher in Pakistan is filmed making "blasphemous" comments - apology ensues - the apology is useless - the preacher disappears.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30317436

Hotblack Desiato

Celibate men say gay marriage bad, blah blah blah

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/bishops-say-same-sex-marriage-would-be-grave-injustice-1.2024464

Placing a heavy emphasis on the responsibility of a functioning, heterosexual relationship in the child rearing process, the publication states that the “upbringing of children is uniquely possible” through conventional, church-endorsed marital relationships.

How dare they say that our family isn't every bit as good as any other, just becase we didn't get married in church :mad:

MrPudding

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Celibate men say gay marriage bad, blah blah blah

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/bishops-say-same-sex-marriage-would-be-grave-injustice-1.2024464



How dare they say that our family isn't every bit as good as any other, just becase we didn't get married in church :mad:

He probably has a point, a very weak one bit a point none the less. A good family, in his eyes, would, presumably, promote his particular strain of religion. Other familes may not.
My own for example, fours kids. None catholic, none religious, and questioning everything, absolutely not
catholic.

MrP

Kivaro

One hazard of belief is that the vatican may forget where it has hidden the flock's money.

The Vatican's economy minister has said hundreds of millions of euro were found "tucked away" in accounts of various Holy See departments.

In an article for Britain's 'Catholic Herald Magazine', Australian Cardinal George Pell wrote that the discovery meant overall Vatican finances were in better shape than previously believed.

"In fact, we have discovered that the situation is much healthier than it seemed, because some hundreds of millions of euro were tucked away in particular sectional accounts and did not appear on the balance sheet," he wrote.

Some of the comments on the Indo article are funny:
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/hundreds-of-millions-found-tucked-away-in-the-vatican-30803648.html

RikuoAmero

Kivaro wrote: »

snip

"That money was only resting in my account!"
Gotta love Fr. Ted.

Hotblack Desiato

This is great news. Instead of a collection, everyone who goes to mass tomorrow morning is getting a dividend

lazygal

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

This is great news. Instead of a collection, everyone who goes to mass tomorrow morning is getting a dividend

I might go myself if the church decided to give away its wealth.

Brian Shanahan

Kivaro wrote: »

One hazard of belief is that the vatican may forget where it has hidden the flock's money.





Some of the comments on the Indo article are funny:
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/hundreds-of-millions-found-tucked-away-in-the-vatican-30803648.html

That's the same Mr. Pell who was transferred out of Australia recently because his continuing attempts to cover up sex abuse scandals, claim victims were lying and finally claim the rcc was too poor to pay compensation had finally become too embarrasing for the vatican.

Hotblack Desiato

How the Taliban groom child suicide bombers

recedite

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/bishops-say-same-sex-marriage-would-be-grave-injustice-1.2024464

It is thought that today’s comments from church officials marks the opening salvo in a concerted effort to sway public opinion against same-sex marriages ahead of next year’s referendum. According to the latest Irish Times/Ipsos MRBI poll, 67 per cent of Irish people support the notion of same-sex marriage being constitutionally enshrined, with just 20 per cent of respondents opposed to such a move.

Looks like public opinion is strongly against them, and yet they feel compelled to fire the opening salvo. By the end of this campaign, they are going to be shown up as a bunch of bigoted and irrelevant dinosaurs.
I wonder if they feel like the chaps lining up at the start at the infamous Charge of the Light Brigade in Crimea, or maybe they feel like leaders of lemmings as the swarm approaches the proverbial cliff.

marienbad

recedite wrote: »

Looks like public opinion is strongly against them, and yet they feel compelled to fire the opening salvo. By the end of this campaign, they are going to be shown up as a bunch of bigoted and irrelevant dinosaurs.
I wonder if they feel like the chaps lining up at the start at the infamous Charge of the Light Brigade in Crimea, or maybe they feel like leaders of lemmings as the swarm approaches the proverbial cliff.

Don't b so sure , this will be a lot closer than you think . Remember everyone opposed to it will come out and vote , whereas those in favour won't.

Big fight ahead .

recedite

marienbad wrote: »

Remember everyone opposed to it will come out and vote , whereas those in favour won't.

But surely there is a stronger incentive to vote for those who feel they will gain some extra rights, and those who support equal rights in general.
For people opposed to same sex marriage, there is nothing that they lose if it comes to pass, except perhaps the feeling of self-righteousness. And if they switch at the last minute, and vote yes just to get onto the winning side, they can still hold onto that self-righteous feeling. Nobody likes being the loser caught on the wrong side of history, even if they haven't fully moved with the times in their heart.

marienbad

recedite wrote: »

But surely there is a stronger incentive to vote for those who feel they will gain some extra rights, and those who support equal rights in general.
For people opposed to same sex marriage, there is nothing that they lose if it comes to pass, except perhaps the feeling of self-righteousness. And if they switch at the last minute, and vote yes just to get onto the winning side, they can still hold onto that self-righteous feeling. Nobody likes being the loser caught on the wrong side of history, even if they haven't fully moved with the times in their heart.

You are being reasonable and logical - both irrelevancies to the no side . Why would they oppose it now when it does absolutely no harm to them ?

This is about entrenched beliefs and those people tend to vote , the liberal crowd less so .Why do you think the Republicans control both houses in the US ? Because they get out their vote .

Brian Shanahan

marienbad wrote: »

You are being reasonable and logical - both irrelevancies to the no side . Why would they oppose it now when it does absolutely no harm to them ?

This is about entrenched beliefs and those people tend to vote , the liberal crowd less so .Why do you think the Republicans control both houses in the US ? Because they get out their vote .

I honestly think you've got it backwards here on the gay marriage vote. This is one issue where people will come out and register their vote in favour.

Oh and there are three reasons why the Republicans control both house and senate, 1) the skew that naturally gives smaller more rural (and more conservative) states and districts representation over what their population should allow, 2) gerrymandering, and 3) vote stealing and other illegal behaviour.

The fact of the matter is that the offices which control elections and districting for elections in the US are political in nature, and the Republicans have long been far better at doing the nasty deeds in these areas than the Democrats (especially after they absorbed the Dixiecrats who had 100 years of experience stealing votes off black folks), allowing their small base to be overrepresented at government level. Electoral results in the US very rarely reflect the democratic will of the people.

jank

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Oh and there are three reasons why the Republicans control both house and senate, 1) the skew that naturally gives smaller more rural (and more conservative) states and districts representation over what their population should allow, 2) gerrymandering, and 3) vote stealing and other illegal behaviour.

Oh please. Why do people always jump on the 'vote stealing' bandwagon. The Democrats got their asses handed to them because of the failing of the Obama administration, not because of any of the above. Anytime the GOP win an election we always hear the same thing about 'stealing the election'. Maybe just maybe the will of the American people was to get the GOP into both houses and nothing to do with wacky conspiracy theories.