The Hazards of Belief

recedite

Elderly men of the cloth, obsessed with controlling what younger women do with their bodies. Reminds me of this.

kylith

looksee wrote: »

That is really sad. Sad as in pathetic.

Great way of getting the menfolk to help out around the house though. "Cut up those carrots for me, Muhammad. And then you can do the hoovering, the suction gives me impure thoughts. And that feather duster is giving me kinky notions too..."

recedite

Khalid Kelly finally blows himself up, plus a few others no doubt.
Good riddance to him. I can't quite agree with the journalist's comment though. Its like the journalist is saying he did what he did despite being a god fearing true believer.

He prayed and he was a true believer but obviously, along the way, he was brainwashed by these militant groups and he allowed that hate and misunderstanding of Islam to take over.

silverharp

recedite wrote: »

Khalid Kelly finally blows himself up, plus a few others no doubt.
Good riddance to him. I can't quite agree with the journalist's comment though. Its like the journalist is saying he did what he did despite being a god fearing true believer.

this is believed to be his car, might have gone off early so nobody else killed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYikKuk1Td4

Hotblack Desiato

The halfwitted sap couldn't even blow himself up properly.

Hotblack Desiato

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/earthquakes-in-italy-god-s-punishment-for-same-sex-unions-1.2856360

The Vatican has condemned the views of a Dominican friar who earlier this week suggested that the earthquakes which hit Italy this summer were “God’s punishment” for the enactment of same sex Civil Union legislation in Italy in May this year.

“From a theological point of view, these disasters are the result of original sin...We are in the presence of a divine punishment and a strong call to refind the principles of natural law...you can certainly think that the earthquake was a punishment for the sins of man...and two men together represents a sin against nature...”, said Fr Cavalcoli.

Asked specifically if the earthquakes were a punishment from God for the legalisation of gay unions, Fr Cavalcoli replied, “Yes, it can happen that way”.

Curiously, this is the second time in the last month that a public figure has suggested that this year’s earthquakes in Italy might be interpreted as some sort of “divine punishment”. Last week, deputy Israeli foreign minister Ayoub Kara suggested that the earthquakes were divine punishment for Italy’s abstention on a controversial UNESCO resolution regarding the status of Jerusalem’s holy sites.

robindch

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The halfwitted sap couldn't even blow himself up properly.

The IT did a longer piece on the former Mr Kelly and spoke to some locals in Ardagh, Co Longford, where he used to live. One local noted, probably without needing to, that "he never came into the pub".

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/longford-locals-shocked-khalid-kelly-lived-in-their-midst-1.2857082

recedite

robindch wrote: »

One local noted, probably without needing to, that "he never came into the pub"

It really is bizarre how some people have their heads in the sand. Kelly was not one for hiding his views or his religion.
I spoke with him in O'Connell St. in Dublin city centre one time, he had a stall on the footpath with two younger guys. I'm pretty sure it was him anyway, and they were trying to hand out leaflets to people. They seemed like nice guys, they weren't as loud or "aggressive" as your typical Christian fundamentalist would be in terms of attention seeking. So they were hardly noticed by most people. Actions speak louder than words I suppose.

robindch

recedite wrote: »

Actions speak louder than words I suppose.

"Bang" in his case.

silverharp

recedite wrote: »

It really is bizarre how some people have their heads in the sand. Kelly was not one for hiding his views or his religion.
I spoke with him in O'Connell St. in Dublin city centre one time, he had a stall on the footpath with two younger guys. I'm pretty sure it was him anyway, and they were trying to hand out leaflets to people. They seemed like nice guys, they weren't as loud or "aggressive" as your typical Christian fundamentalist would be in terms of attention seeking. So they were hardly noticed by most people. Actions speak louder than words I suppose.

Lee Rigby's killer in the background

recedite

I'm guessing that photo was taken in the UK?
Completely different style there; megaphones, placards, shouting.
We are a couple of decades behind in Ireland.

silverharp

recedite wrote: »

I'm guessing that photo was taken in the UK?
Completely different style there; megaphones, placards, shouting.
We are a couple of decades behind in Ireland.

I'd say so....erm yeah cant wait

recedite

One local noted, probably without needing to, that "he never came into the pub"

Heres some more local reaction from Ardagh, Co Longford, where he used to live.


The Spar shop; "He used to come in to buy a breakfast roll, but he never wanted any bacon on it. Strange. And that funny little hat he wore, what was that about?"


The Guard; "He'd often be out jogging in the middle of the night, in army boots and carrying a 20 Kilo rucksack full of rocks. I stopped him once when I saw he had a rifle as well, but it turned out he was partial to a bit of rabbit stew."



The Parish Priest; "A very nice man, very quiet. Kept himself to himself. He never came to mass; that was the only odd thing about him. He had a great sense of humour, he used to tell people that he was a muslim".


The Butcher; "He always came in here for his steaks. Never touched the sausages, even if they were on special offer. I'd tell him our home made craft sausages were the best in north east Longford, and he'd just be muttering something about "snackbars".

silverharp

^^^^^

there is something a bit Fr Ted about all that. whats the logic? he was a Muslim but he was also a Catholic Muslim?

recedite

I'm just poking fun at the "head in the sand mentality" that we, as a society, suffer from.
The guy was not crazy or stupid, no more than anyone else. So there was no official reason for officialdom to interfere with him.
We also have this assumption in society that religion in itself, is inherently good.
Put those two factors together, and you have the reason why a fundamentalist inspired terrorist threat can grow, completely out in the open, yet remain totally invisible as far as "society" is concerned.
Its not just in Ardagh either, its in the whole of Europe.

The question of how this guy came to be a true believer is fairly straightforward. He went to the middle east to make some money working as a nurse. Found he could sell alcohol at extortionate prices. Got arrested and jailed by Islamic police. While under the psychological trauma of being stuck in a Saudi prison, and probably lacking sleep too, he abandoned his own cultural upbringing, rebooted his values system, and adopted the ideology of his captors. Its a classic brainwashing scenario. There's no going back after that, except if he was required to undergo some serious therapy sessions back home. As the paper says

This is a classic psychological aberration that occurs when prisoners start to identify with the ideology of their captors. Kelly is not the first and certainly won't be the last to suffer from such a loss of cultural identity in a form of psychological trauma.

A similar thing happened with many captured US servicemen in Vietnam.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/nov/09/croydon-tram-crash-five-trapped-40-injured
A random insight into one person's mind:

Adil Salahi, whose property overlooks the track, said he heard a sudden noise. Salahi, 76, said: “It was about 6.10 to 6.15 and because I was praying I could not move and try to check what it is. I thought it was something in the garage doors. Then I thought it was some lorry.”[\quote]

MrPudding

recedite wrote: »

The Butcher; "He always came in here for his steaks. Never touched the sausages, even if they were on special offer. I'd tell him our home made craft sausages were the best in north east Longford, and he'd just be muttering something about "snackbars".

MrP

MrPudding

recedite wrote: »

I'm just poking fun at the "head in the sand mentality" that we, as a society, suffer from.
The guy was not crazy or stupid, no more than anyone else. So there was no official reason for officialdom to interfere with him.
We also have this assumption in society that religion in itself, is inherently good.
Put those two factors together, and you have the reason why a fundamentalist inspired terrorist threat can grow, completely out in the open, yet remain totally invisible as far as "society" is concerned.
Its not just in Ardagh either, its in the whole of Europe.

The question of how this guy came to be a true believer is fairly straightforward. He went to the middle east to make some money working as a nurse. Found he could sell alcohol at extortionate prices. Got arrested and jailed by Islamic police. While under the psychological trauma of being stuck in a Saudi prison, and probably lacking sleep too, he abandoned his own cultural upbringing, rebooted his values system, and adopted the ideology of his captors. Its a classic brainwashing scenario. There's no going back after that, except if he was required to undergo some serious therapy sessions back home. As the paper says A similar thing happened with many captured US servicemen in Vietnam.

Basically the plot for Homeland.

MrP

robindch

Prominently wealthy fundamentalist NZ preacher Brian Tamaki has announced that the recent earthquake in New Zealand was caused by god in retaliation for recent "iniquity" taking place in the country.

Lots of kiwis were unamused.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-38011627

robindch

High-flying, orange-dressed, gun-loving Indian god-woman and hindu nationalist, Sadhvi Deva Thakur, shows up at a wedding, asks for and gets a dance tune, then pulls out a gun and starts shooting in the air, but not high enough for one guest.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-38013000

Ms Thakur left the wedding as soon as possible and hasn't been seen since.

recedite

The colour orange has a strange effect on people.
Look at Trump. Remember Ian Paisley?
Even I have problems. When I go to the pub wearing jeans, no problem. But when I go wearing my patriotic orange kilt, it nearly always ends in a barfight.

Hotblack Desiato

Just tell them it's not orange, it's saffron - and traditionally that's where the dye came from, so only the very privileged could wear it.

robindch

robindch wrote: »

Following the BBC article, Mr Aniva has been arrested by police on the direct orders of the president:

Mr Aniva went on trial, was convicted and faces sentencing of up to five years tomorrow:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-38006053
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-38028065

silverharp

sure why not.....


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/21/germany-sharia-police-court-ruling?CMP=twt_gu

A German court has ruled that a group of Islamists did not break the law in forming “sharia police” street patrols and telling people to stop drinking, gambling and listening to music.

The ultra-conservative Muslim group around the German Salafist convert Sven Lau sparked public outrage with their vigilante patrols in the western city of Wuppertal in 2014, but prosecutors have struggled to build a case against them.

The city’s district court ruled that the seven accused members of the group did not breach a ban on political uniforms when they approached people while wearing orange vests bearing the words “Sharia Police”.

Judges said there could only be a violation of the law – originally aimed against street movements such as the early Nazi party – if the uniforms were “suggestively militant or intimidating”, a court spokesman said.

robindch

Lancet paper suggests that perpetuating the Santa myth might not be good for children:

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/nov/23/belief-in-santa-could-affect-parent-child-relationships-warns-study

Let the war on christmas commence!

Hotblack Desiato

robindch wrote: »

Let the war on christmas commence!

This early?

Peregrinus

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

This early?

It's Thanksgiving in the US. The War on Christmas™ officially begins tomorrow.

[Neville Chamberlain voice]: "This morning I handed an elf representing Santa Claus and Baby Jesus a final Note stating that, unless we heard from them by 11 o'clock that they were prepared at once to withdraw from all department stores and shopping malls, a state of war would exist between us.

I have to tell you now that no such undertaking has been received, and that consequently we are at war with Christmas".

silverharp

seems reasonable :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/MEMRIReports/status/803513927506202624

Penn

silverharp wrote: »

seems reasonable :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/MEMRIReports/status/803513927506202624

"Did you beat your wife black and blue?"
"No, purple and blue"
"Oh, that's fine then."

looksee

There is some serious rubbish - mixed in with rather more rational stuff - on that MEMRI site. If they want men to have 4 wives, well let them get on with it, it is not important, but the stuff that 'Researcher' is fulminating on, and the guy ranting about Zionism is really worrying. Its arguable of course that it is no different to what the fundamentalist Christians rant about, really we could do very well without any of them.

robindch

A mother describes losing her son to ISIS.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37973246

recedite

robindch wrote: »

A mother describes losing her son to ISIS.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37973246

Its poignant and sad. But I think the article glosses over the fact that her son wasn't just "lost to ISIS"; he was ideologically a part of ISIS, even before he left the UK. Technically, he was lost to a coalition drone strike.

Hotblack Desiato

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/public-perception-of-muslim-numbers-in-europe-higher-than-reality-1.2906334

Public perception of Muslim numbers in Europe higher than reality

The public perception of the number of Muslims living in European countries including the Netherlands, Germany, France and Belgium, is much higher than the reality, according to a new international survey by pollsters, Ipsos Mori.

The mistaken perception plays into public debate on a range of contentious issues such as immigration, social welfare, employment and security, and increases the popular pressure on governments to modify their policies in response.

The survey of 40 countries, entitled Perils of Perception 2016, shows that in the Netherlands, where immigration will be a hot topic in the March general election, the average estimate is that Muslims make up 19 per cent of the population – whereas the reality is just 6 per cent.

At the same time, the average public perception among the Dutch is that the Muslim population will grow to 26 percent by 2020 – while official estimates say the real figure will be 6.9 percent, less than one-third of the figure most people anticipate.

The survey shows that the widest gap between perception and reality is in France, where presidential elections next April and May are expected to lead to gains for the anti-immigrant National Front.

There, the public perception is that Muslims account for 31 percent of the population, whereas the reality is 7.5 percent. By 2020, most people believe that will have risen to 40 percent, whereas the real figure is expected to be 8.3 percent.

That problem of perception is replicated in Germany, Belgium and Italy, as well as in the UK and US.

In Germany, where chancellor Angela Merkel opened the gates to migrants from Iraq and Syria, the perception of Muslims as a proportion of the population is 21 per cent, while the reality is 5 per cent.

In Belgium, which has become a major source of violent jihadists, the perception is 23 per cent while the reality is 7 per cent. And in Italy, the perceived figure is 20 per cent and the actual figure 3.7 per cent.

In the UK, respondents put the current Muslim population at 15 per cent, three times the actual 4.8 per cent figure – and by 2020 expect that to have increased to 22 per cent, whereas the reality is expected to be 6.1 per cent.

And in the US – where president-elect Donald Trump has suggested a ban on immigration by Muslims – the perceived Muslim population at home is put at 17 per cent, as against an actual figure of just 1 per cent.

The perception in the US is that the Muslim population will reach 23 per cent by 2020, whereas official forecasts say the real 2020 figure will be 1.1 per cent.

recedite

General "Public perception" is still noticeably more accurate than some Muslim perceptions; "enclaves of Islam see UK as 75% Muslim"

And for balance; "The survey that was done, referred to some Asian students in one school who believed that 50 to 90% of Britain was “Asian”."

silverharp

reminds me I remember seeing a headline that in a survey Americans thought ~15% of the population was gay. With overestimating Muslims there is a bit of the "near far away" about it , if you live in a European city they might well have to live their life in a city which is approaching 20% and some are even higher so its your reality. where European governments need to give a steer is what their long term policy is and be clear about long term robust projection of what the Muslim population will be in a particular country in 20,50 or 100 years even and have clear discussions over it.

Absolam

silverharp wrote: »

where European governments need to give a steer is what their long term policy is and be clear about long term robust projection of what the Muslim population will be in a particular country in 20,50 or 100 years even and have clear discussions over it.

Like they do with all the other religions?

silverharp

Absolam wrote: »

Like they do with all the other religions?

cute!

Absolam

silverharp wrote: »

cute!

My mom thinks so too! :cool:

Hotblack Desiato

Vacancy available for universityseminary president, excellent salary and benefits, catholic priests only need apply.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/st-patrick-s-college-in-maynooth-seeks-new-president-1.2907832

The new president at the college should be a “Roman Catholic priest who is in good standing and over 35 years of age”, the advertisement says.
It is also “desirable” he have a “doctorate and licentiate in Catholic theology or biblical studies or canon law or philosophy or ecclesiastical history; a qualification or experience in ministerial formation or other relevant experience; and, experience in human/estate/resource management.” Closing date for receipt of applications is January 25th.

Would have thought the age stipulation was entirely superfluous...

recedite

There are probably a few candidates on the gaydar, but are they sufficiently "doctrinally rigid" and of "good standing" :pac:

Hotblack Desiato

For some reason the IT has printed another piece by that gobshite from Barely Alive!

Our world is dominated by an aimless secularist view of life

With secularism now being made Ireland’s unofficial State religion, we need to ask...

...does he even know what the word means... It only gets worse from there.


If this isn't bad enough, Vincent "Atheism Kills" Twomey was in the other day as well, usual crap about abortion not really worth anyone's time reading, but I took one for the team as it were. Main "point" - empathy for the difficulties of women in crisis pregnancy is an emotive argument (but "teh poor baybees" isn't, obv) Oh, and the bible really is a source of objective morality, thou shalt not kill, so there. The end.

looksee

You feel that you would like to respond, then realise that there is absolutely no point.

PopePalpatine

It's like reading through ten drive-by posts by a certain Gaelgoir monk on this site, swiping at the latest progress in society and eulogising the RCC's iron fist.

TL;DR his prose is torturous. He almost made me miss John Waters.

robindch

Shock! Horror! More Shock!

The Daily Mail reports that students of Theology at the University of Glasgow have been provided with trigger warnings for a course on the bible:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/~/article-4089302/index.html

For good measure, the article also includes the terms "generation snowflake", "entitled millenials" and, of course, our old favourite, "politically correct".

silverharp

robindch wrote: »

Shock! Horror! More Shock!

The Daily Mail reports that students of Theology at the University of Glasgow have been provided with trigger warnings for a course on the bible:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/~/article-4089302/index.html

For good measure, the article also includes the terms "generation snowflake", "entitled millenials" and, of course, our old favourite, "politically correct".

that genuinely would have made a great Onion article a few years back.

TheChizler

I don't think the concept 'triggering' actually exists outside of articles giving out about how the left love it. No idea what it's supposed to mean.

robindch

TheChizler wrote: »

I don't think the concept 'triggering' actually exists outside of articles giving out about how the left love it.

The concept does exist outside of the right-wing media, but - in my experience at least - it's important or relevant only for a tiny, tiny number of individuals. One person in my case, and that was the admittedly extreme example of Rebecca Watson whom I met some years back.

But outside of the private and peculiar world of the right-wing media, the tabloids, and the tiny number of individuals who provide them both with material, the concept of "triggering" is as useful as a jellyfish in a spaceship.

looksee

It is possible to be 'triggered' -- I had a situation where an emotional 'trigger' sparked a pre-existing condition and put me in hospital, to my surprise. I am not a 'fragile' personality but I was under a considerable amount of stress for various reasons and a chance and entirely innocent comment by someone set up an astonishing instant link in my thoughts and tripped a heart condition, all within a few moments. It had never happened before and has not happened since, but it was a very strange sensation.

I do not think this business of 'being triggered' should be indulged though, it is not necessary in the vast majority of cases.

silverharp

I think the term now just means mock shock, Ive heard my son use it a few times with his online buddies. the reason it hit the news was that "Trigger warnings " were starting to appear in some university material and there issues about students being able to pass a course while being exempted from covering all parts of the course. On the face of it worth discussing regardless of how rare it might have been happening?

Trent Houseboat

Yeah, the alt-right really have devalued a real mental health term in pursuit of discrediting anyone who disagrees with them.