The Hazards of Belief

Jan_de_Bakker

Again, thin end of the wedge, if the same happened and it was somehow connected with protecting Christianity (and im no defender of Christianity) I doubt people on here would be so "liberal" ..

silverharp

Peregrinus wrote: »

So we shouldn't investigate ways to combat racial and religious discrimination promote human rights, in case that might lead somebody to suggest some restriction on speech? Is that what you're saying here, or am I misunderstanding you?

define what free speech is and say that will be protected then look at the other stuff. There are clearly people out there that want to limit free speech into areas that were assumed to be free so there might be an incentive by these people to "look into" curbing it

recedite

Jan_de_Bakker wrote: »

Whats the definition of Islamaphobia here ?
I for one think its quite reasonable to fear Islam giving the amount of terror attacks attributed to it over the last decades ....at least to be concerned - not talking about a witch hunt.

Khalid is using her own definition;

On February 15, Iqra Khalid stated that the definition of Islamophobia is "the irrational hate of Muslims that leads to discrimination"

from Wiki
As opposed to a perfectly rational dislike of Islam, which could be termed "Islamomisia" (thanks to fundamentalist christianity for that)
Technically, Islamophobia really means a fear of Islam.

When you get lawmakers passing "motions" to suit their own definitions of words, things do tend to get confusing.

Jan_de_Bakker

Anyway .... we're all ****ed ...

And here was me hoping for a Rodenberry-esque future !! ha !

recedite

It was a common enough theme in Star Trek for an alien culture to try to seize control of the ship

oscarBravo

I guess we should be grateful that it's no longer our turn to be the people it's apparently perfectly rational to dislike.

PopePalpatine

oscarBravo wrote: »

I guess we should be grateful that it's no longer our turn to be the people it's apparently perfectly rational to dislike.

It boggles the mind how the alt-right could have radicalised any Irish people given their predecessors' hatred of the Irish.

recedite

oscarBravo wrote: »

I guess we should be grateful that it's no longer our turn to be the people it's apparently perfectly rational to dislike.

You misunderstand that cartoon, its not about disliking people, its about integrating them. That cartoon depicts a whole range of caricatures of mostly European nationalities, mostly armed and antagonistic towards each other, all going into a melting pot and being given US citizenship and equal rights. The rabid little Fenian guy is probably to the fore because the Fenians had managed to bring their gripe to the new world.

Its a pertinent political cartoon, and still valid today, except maybe the most troublesome little guy nowadays would be depicted with a bomb in his turban.

silverharp

Sargon not a fan of it , an attempt at a modern Blasphemy law?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nEGdKeT4B0

oscarBravo

recedite wrote: »

Its a pertinent political cartoon, and still valid today...

Wow.

recedite

oscarBravo wrote: »

Wow.

Are you not a fan of the secular republic then? Based on the ideals of the Enlightenment, with immigrants exchanging old religious and nationalistic based enmities for US citizenship, to live in peace with equal rights?

Sad that in your desperation to be the most politically correct person around, and to be the first to take offence on behalf of the underdog (even a rabid one) you are blind to what really matters.

silverharp

recedite wrote: »

Are you not a fan of the secular republic then? Based on the ideals of the Enlightenment, with immigrants exchanging old religious and nationalistic based enmities for US citizenship, to live in peace with equal rights?

Sad that in your desperation to be the most politically correct person around, and to be the first to take offence on behalf of the underdog (even a rabid one) you are blind to what really matters.

in the way that history rhymes when Irish terrorists in the US started attacking settlements in Canada it had the effect of fostering nationalism in Canda and spurred on confederation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenian_raids

Support for the Fenian Brotherhood's invasion of Canada quickly disappeared and there was no real threat after the 1890s. Nevertheless, the raids had an important effect on all Canadians.
The Fenian raids caused an increased anti-American feeling in Canada and the Maritimes because of the U.S. government's perceived tolerance of the Fenians when they were meeting openly and preparing for the raids.[16] The raids also aroused a martial spirit among Canadians by testing the militia's strength. Because of their poor performance, the militia took efforts to improve themselves. This was achieved without the huge cost of a real war.[21] The greatest impact of the Fenian raids was in the developing a sense of Canadian nationalism and leading the provinces into a Confederation. This was seen as necessary for survival and self-defense; the raids showed Canadians that safety lay in unity and were an important factor in creating the modern nation-state of Canada.

PopePalpatine

There's no uppity minorities or females in one's fantasies about being a Bronze Age ruler. :rolleyes:

Jan_de_Bakker

silverharp wrote: »

Sargon not a fan of it , an attempt at a modern Blasphemy law?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nEGdKeT4B0

Thats exactly what it is, lefties embrace it though as it's blasphemy against Islam ... if it were Christianity though it would be a very different story.

Astounding the way the modern left has aligned itself with Islam.

oscarBravo

Jan_de_Bakker wrote: »

Astounding the way the modern left has aligned itself with Islam.

Against bigotry ≠ with Islam.

recedite

oscarBravo wrote: »

Against bigotry != with Islam.

Wow.

robindch

Mod:

recedite wrote: »

Sad that in your desperation to be the most politically correct person around, and to be the first to take offence on behalf of the underdog (even a rabid one) you are blind to what really matters.

No need to personalize this (especially using the silly term "politically correct" :rolleyes:).

recedite

"Politically correct" is a valid phrase.
Take the proposition/equation "Against bigotry != with Islam" or its corollary
"Not with Islam = bigot". Signalling that you are a bigot is obviously less politic than signalling that you are "not a bigot".

However, if you consider that Islam itself is not a "good" or "correct" ideology, then you are going to be stuck with the label "= bigot", which may be the more "correct" choice, but its also the less "politic" one.

Pawwed Rig

I took the != to mean 'does not equal'. Am I wrong here?

oscarBravo

recedite wrote: »

Take the proposition/equation "Against bigotry != with Islam" or its corollary
"Not with Islam = bigot".

Your logic needs work.

A cat is not a dog.
Therefore, that which is not a cat is a dog.

That's not how corollaries work.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I took the != to mean 'does not equal'. Am I wrong here?

Nope.

robindch

recedite wrote: »

"Politically correct" is a valid phrase.

It may be, but when used by people who self-describe as "right wing", it has an unfortunate tendency to be used as a term of offence. Best avoid the term really.

I would also suggest that as you may not be privy to oscarBravo's private intentions in writing that post, your imputation that (s)he's doing this in order to curry some kind of favour with other forum posters (?) seems, at best, wildly over-confident and therefore, almost certainly wrong.

recedite

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I took the != to mean 'does not equal'. Am I wrong here?

Well that puts a completely different spin on it then. Its probably best not to use a programming language in text, unless you are posting on a forum specifically for computer programmers.

oscarBravo

recedite wrote: »

Well that puts a completely different spin on it then. Its probably best not to use a programming language in text, unless you are posting on a forum specifically for computer programmers.

My bad, it didn't occur to me that anyone wouldn't understand what I meant, particularly in context. I've edited my original post to hopefully make my meaning clearer.

Hotblack Desiato

Hazard: realising far too late it's all a load of old cobblers

Catholic doctrines ‘no longer make sense’, says Fr Tony Flannery

(did they ever? anyway...)

Redemptorist priest Fr Tony Flannery has questioned traditional Catholic Church teachings on God, Mary and the Trinity, which he said, “no longer make sense to the modern mind, and are being quietly rejected even by people who still attend church”.

Some of these doctrines, he said, “are not scripture based” and come from “a time when there was a very different understanding of the world and of humanity”.

So he's gone protestant, then?

Science revealed that “creation was not just an event of ancient history, but is an ongoing reality”, he said.

So “it makes more sense to many to view God as the spirit/energy/consciousness/presence in the whole of creation; a being that is in, and with all, aspects of creation including all humanity”, he said.

Or maybe a deist?

He felt however that “maybe the most problematic area of all Catholic doctrine is the teaching on Mary”. He wondered “how many of us really believe in the nativity stories and the virgin birth, and that Mary remained a virgin all her life and had no other children?”
People, he said, were “rejecting these doctrines as childish fantasies, and walking away from it all”.

Didn't even go there on the old transubstantiation thing...

robindch

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Catholic doctrines ‘no longer make sense’, says Fr Tony Flannery

At least he has the courage of his convictions to come out and say it.

Poor chap - gets to the end of his life only to realize he backed a non-existent horse.

Hotblack Desiato

I'm no fan of the clergy or religious orders, but I do feel a bit sorry for those who were kids in the 50s when being Irish and RC meant you were one of god's chosen people (why god made so many of his chosen people in a small impoverished country, most of whom had to leave it, was not explained)
Then Vatican II came along and they signed up, mostly barely adults if that, thinking they could change the world.
In the late 1960s laity and even some clergy thought that Pope Paul VI would permit contraception, maybe just maybe relax celibacy?!? but instead the bans were restated and the RC church began a drift back towards conservatism, copperfastened by the bishops and cardinals appointed by JPII and Benny.
So for the last 50 years the RC church has continued to move ever more out of step with its laity and crisis point has long been passed at this stage. The jig's up and Flannery (and all the others who don't dare speak out) know it.

silverharp

in the quiet words of the Virgin Mary.....


https://twitter.com/JPY_Kurdish/status/847643622094667778

Jan_de_Bakker

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-39475462

A former Dutch MP and prominent critic of conservative Islam, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, has cancelled a speaking tour of Australia and New Zealand citing security concerns.
The Somali-born author was to appear on Australian TV on Monday before starting her tour, titled "Hero of Heresy".
But she pulled out due to "a number of reasons including security concerns", event organiser Think Inc said.
Ms Hirsi Ali has faced death threats in the past.

Dangerous times for free speech, you would think the left and feminists would embrace Aayan Hirsi Ali with what she has been through.

Trent Houseboat

Jan_de_Bakker wrote:

Dangerous times for free speech, you would think the left and feminists would embrace Aayan Hirsi Ali with what she has been through.

One would assume from the article, and the theme of this entire thread, that the threats were from Islamists. Not really sure why you think it was da left or feminists. Unless of course we're playing a game of "Why aren't the feminists protesting X?", which has noting to do with this thread and looks like a childish attempt on your behalf to shoe-horn in an unrelated slight on a broad range of people. Dangerous times indeed when posters are using threats against others to score points.

Jan_de_Bakker

Nope, there are protest videos from feminists against her ... like this beauty
https://twitter.com/Sacha_Saeen/status/848686438715727872

YEah, aren't you lucky she doesn't speak for you - she does however speak for millions of women in the middle east/africa without a voice ..

Hotblack Desiato

Didn't see this mentioned here, but last week the Oireachtas Committee on Procedures and Privileges decided to continue to have a christian prayer at the start of each day.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/dáil-prayer-to-continue-while-dress-code-ruling-deferred-1.3029714

The prayer goes: “Direct, we beseech Thee, O Lord, our actions by Thy holy inspirations and carry them on by Thy gracious assistance; that every word and work of ours may always begin from Thee, and by Thee be happily ended; through Christ our Lord. Amen.”

recedite

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Oireachtas Committee on Procedures and Privileges decided to continue to have a christian prayer at the start of each day.

80% of those taking the online poll in that IT link think the Committee are wrong.

Hotblack Desiato

Oh dear.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/offbeat/easter-egg-hunt-spits-on-the-grave-of-cadbury-archbishop-1.3036031

Archbishop of York Dr John Sentamu accused the chocolate giant [Cadbury's] of “spitting on the grave” of its religious founder by removing references to Christianity’s most sacred festival from the spring event it runs nationwide with the conservation charity.

Church leaders criticised the National Trust for “airbrushing” Christianity out of its chocolate egg hunt, after a rebrand led to the renaming of the “Easter Egg Trail” as the “Great British Egg Hunt”.

Pity about them.

Aren't they aware of the pagan origins of Easter which long pre-date the nailed-up guy (rather an ironic death for a carpenter, n'est-ce pas?)

Nothing religious in itself about calling a festival Easter (unless you're a pagan) so none of the usual abrahamic faiths who get needlessly uptight about stuff should be getting uptight...

PopePalpatine

The funny thing is that John Cadbury was a Quaker who didn't celebrate Easter.

But who cares about the truth when you can earn some brownie points among the Torygraph classes? :rolleyes:

silverharp

jaypers

http://www.thejournal.ie/muslim-india-cow-3324712-Apr2017/

A MUSLIM MAN has died after he was attacked by hundreds of Hindu vigilantes while transporting cows in India, police said today, amid rising tensions over the slaughter of the sacred animal.


Pehlu Khan, 55, died in hospital late on Monday, two days after a mob attacked his cattle truck on a highway in Alwar in the western state of Rajasthan.

...
At least 10 Muslim men have been killed in similar incidents across the country by Hindu mobs on suspicion of eating beef or smuggling cows in the last two years.
In 2015, a Muslim man was lynched by his neighbours over rumours that he had slaughtered a cow. Police later said the meat was mutton.

MrPudding

silverharp wrote: »

jaypers

http://www.thejournal.ie/muslim-india-cow-3324712-Apr2017/

When a person can be killed "on suspicion of eating beef" that is the point where someone needs to stop, think, and have a word.

MrP

robindch

The owners of the Supreme Court in Russia have asked the SC to determine whether the Jehovah Witnesses constitute an "extremist organization":

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39500648
http://www.rapsinews.com/judicial_news/20170405/278171927.html

While the bias of rulings issued by the Russian SC are not directly comparable to judgment rates issued by lower courts, the ~99% conviction rate seen in lower courts suggests that the SC may well find the government's case persuasive.

recedite

In 2004, a court in Moscow dissolved and banned a Jehovah’s Witnesses group on charges of recruiting children, encouraging believers to break from their families, inciting suicide and preventing believers from accepting medical assistance.

Its an interesting dilemma, whether or not a country should ban a cult from operating, if the ban is deemed to be in the public interest. IMO any such decision should depend on the amount of harm the cult is likely to cause to the individuals caught up in it. That versus "the right" of people to be crazy if they want to be.

recedite

PopePalpatine wrote: »

The funny thing is that John Cadbury was a Quaker who didn't celebrate Easter.

But who cares about the truth when you can earn some brownie points among the Torygraph classes? :rolleyes:

Well I think you'll have to cite some evidence that Quakers don't celebrate Easter (or at least that John Cadbury didn't, for some reason)
Otherwise I'll stick with the conventional wisdom.

PopePalpatine

recedite wrote: »

Well I think you'll have to cite some evidence that Quakers don't celebrate Easter (or at least that John Cadbury didn't, for some reason)
Otherwise I'll stick with the conventional wisdom.

Here you go:

In common with other Christian denominations derived from the 16th century Puritanism, many Friends do not observe religious festivals (e.g. Christmas, Lent, or Easter), but instead believe that Christ's birth, crucifixion, and resurrection, should be commemorated every day of the year.

recedite

Hmmm.... like all things Quaker, that evidence is a bit flaky.

Peregrinus

recedite wrote: »

Well I think you'll have to cite some evidence that Quakers don't celebrate Easter (or at least that John Cadbury didn't, for some reason)
Otherwise I'll stick with the conventional wisdom.

I'm not aware of any "conventional wisdom" to the effect that Quakers celebrate Easter. There may, of course, be individual Quakers who celebrate Easter, but the Quaker tradition is not to celebrate religious festivals.

Google seems to be aware of this, as evidenced by this, and this, and this, and this, all of which I found on the first page of results for a Google search for "Quakers Easter".

recedite

Peregrinus wrote: »

...and this, all of which I found on the first page of results for a Google search for "Quakers Easter".

Did you read the first guys answer there?

Well, there certainly is a Biblical basis for the resurrection, and it certainly merits celebration. If I'm a Quaker anymore, I'm a charismatic, liturgical Quaker. So this Holy Week, at the church (non-pastoral) I attend, there was a lot going on. On Thursday, I went to a Maunday Thursday Tenebrae service (service of shadows). On Friday, I went to a Good Friday Silent Retreat at the silent retreat center managed by the church. On Saturday, I attended the Easter Vigil, which involved walking in silence in the 200 acres the church manages with occasional stops for telling a story or singing, ending around a fire with scripture reading, followed by breaking the silence for passing the peace and having apple juice and hot cross buns. This morning, the church held its Easter service in the conference center it manages, which has this beautiful triangular room with mostly glass looking out at nature, instead of the farmhouse living room it usually meets in. It was all wonderful.

Google also throws up this and this

[FONT=arial,helvetica,verdana]Today, Quaker groups generally do not have a rigid testimony against their members observing Christmas or other special days. Many Friends churches and meetings have some special observance of Christmas. Practices vary widely[/FONT].
[FONT=arial,helvetica,verdana]Some Friends still do not celebrate Christmas as a matter of principle. Many are conflicted, wanting to hold up the testimony that each day is holy but also being drawn to special celebrations and joining with others in communal experiences that mark the season. Friends generally react strongly against the commercialism of the season, and endeavor to reflect the Quaker simplicity testimony in their observances.[/FONT]

Some of the websites give historical accounts of Quakers way back in the 1600s when they agreed with the Puritans that Christmas and Easter festivities should be banned. But even then, it was just the festivities they were against. They still believed in the significance of those days and they would have marked them with relevant bible readings etc..

smokingman

I was in a tesco car park in Arklow tonight waiting on my other half to get a few bits and two kids, about 12 and 7, came up to my car asking if I knew about "the good word of our lord". It was dark and they accused me of being "one of those atheists" when I asked where their parents were and why they were approaching strangers in a car park at night.

Even my own kids (all under 7) were incredulous that their parents or teachers didn't tell them about "stranger danger".

....seriously....wtf

recedite

On the one hand, putting your kids at risk.
On the other hand, saving the souls of strangers.
The dilemma of the true believer just trying to do the Lord's work.

Remember, Abraham was prepared to sacrifice his only son Isaac. The bible teaches us this.

robindch

robindch wrote: »

The owners of the Supreme Court in Russia have asked the SC to determine whether the Jehovah Witnesses constitute an "extremist organization"

Things not looking good for the JW's - at least three state-controlled television outlets reported on a small crowd of JW's which showed up outside the court last Wednesday morning, the day of the hearing.

Only it turned out - in true Russian style - that the "supporters" were actually students from a nearby university who'd been told to show up by an unknown man who'd also told them to avoid taking any photos and to avoid posting anything on social media about what they were doing, or who they were.

https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/russian-students-framed-as-jehovahs-witnesses-in-field-trip-to-crowd-courtroom-57684

The most likely explanation is that the SC didn't want any real JW's in the court while the court was in session, as well as providing an opportunity to make it look like the JW's actually had some support in the country.

recedite

robindch wrote: »

the "supporters" were actually students from a nearby university who'd been told to show up by an unknown man..

Usually in that kind of situation you would assume the unknown man was working on behalf of the Jehovahs Witnesses.
In the absence of evidence, you could speculate either way.
But the principles of Occam's Razor would tend towards assuming the rent-a-crowd not being recruited by the opposite side in any given dispute.

robindch

recedite wrote: »

In the absence of evidence, you could speculate either way. But the principles of Occam's Razor would tend towards assuming the rent-a-crowd not being recruited by the opposite side in any given dispute.

That point of view would have some credibility if it weren't Russia where this kind of government-sponsored rent-a-crowd is a common thing. Especially the rent-a-crowds operating under the instruction of the Kremlin which are typically instructed to avoid peppering social media with photos, as for example, are the regular and irregular Russian military units operating in East Ukraine - not always especially successfully, as it turns out.

robindch

Meanwhile Novaya Gazeta reports that, in Chechnya, gay men are being rounded up and tortured - English articles are here, here and here).

Ramzan Kadyrov, the region's erratic islamic fundamentalist president, said (in English) that this couldn't be happening as there were no gay men in Chechnya because they'd all been dealt with by their relatives.

Chechen authorities retaliated to the report by issuing a veiled threat to the reporters behind the story - at least one of whom is now in hiding after she received death threats.

Uncharacteristically, Putin in a mildly difficult spot here as the Russian "security" services have been pushing back against Kadyrov for many years as he operates outside of the country's strict power vertical and is, effectively, a law unto himself within Chechnya and carries unclear authority elsewhere as he provides men and materials to do Putin's dirty work in Syria, East Ukraine as well as the the occasional hit in Moscow.

Hotblack Desiato

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/ex-green-party-chief-trevor-sargent-to-become-a-priest-1.3050597

Former Green Party TD Trevor Sargent is to become a (Church of Ireland) priest.

"The boss is Jesus Christ, and when you forget that you go off the rails."

Well speak for yourself buddy.

Also the oul' catlick priests must be a bit jealous, Trev gets to keep his (second) wife and they're not even allowed one