The Hazards of Belief

Hotblack Desiato

Anti-vaccine community behind North Carolina chickenpox outbreak

A North Carolina school with a large anti-vaccine community is at the heart of the state's largest chickenpox outbreak in decades, officials say.

On Friday 36 students at Asheville Waldorf School were diagnosed with the disease, the Asheville Citizen-Times newspaper reported.

The school has one of the state's highest rates of religious exemption, allowing students to skip vaccination.

US health officials say vaccinating is far safer than getting chickenpox.

"This is the biggest chickenpox outbreak state health officials are aware of since the vaccine became available," a North Carolina Department of Health spokesman told the BBC in an emailed statement.

Out of the Waldorf School's 152 students, 110 have not received the vaccine for the varicella virus, known to most as chickenpox, the Citizen-Times found.

And 67.9% of the school's kindergarten students had religious immunisation exemptions on file in the 2017-2018 school year, according to state data.

robindch

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

BBC]Out of the Waldorf School's 152 students, 110 have not received the vaccine for the varicella virus, known to most as chickenpox, the Citizen-Times found.

Not surprising that this happened at a Waldorf/Steiner outlet - they're well known for having very high vaccine exemption rates and the Waldorf/Steiner movement has been fixed within the hairs of skeptic movements for many years:

https://vaxopedia.org/2016/10/13/waldorf-schools-and-vaccines/
https://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/steiner.html
https://www.csicop.org/specialarticles/show/waldorf_steiner_and_education
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Waldorf_education

robindch

recedite wrote: »

They are an interesting group of people, and probably the most stupid in the world. But also very happy in their way of life.
https://pumpkinperson.com/2015/05/13/why-is-indias-iq-so-high/comment-page-1/

I'd be fascinated to see what other websites you're googling for at home, given that what I assume is another home-search returned this pumpkinperson website!

Regardless of the difficulty the author has in writing clear, grammatical English, or their interest in producing long multiple-choice questions, or their single-minded obsession with IQ (a number which more orthodox academics regard these days as crude and ineffective), there are some very strange postings indeed. This one, more or less at random, compares the cranial capacities of Ellen DeGeneres and Oprah Winfrey by means of screenshots + rulers.

https://pumpkinperson.com/2018/08/28/oprah-vs-ellen-cranial-capacity/

recedite

Indeed, that comparison was quite fascinating, was it not :pac:

Hotblack Desiato

It's now 40 years since the Jonestown massacre.

If you're so inclined, you can listen to Jones's final ramblings here or via the Wikipedia page. Listener discretion is advised, as they say.

Pawwed Rig

Do people normally get chicken pox vaccine? I never did and it is not part of the usual suite of vaccines given to kids afair

when my kids got it doctors were not overly concerned other than the prospect of scarring

Peregrinus

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Do people normally get chicken pox vaccine? I never did and it is not part of the usual suite of vaccines given to kids afair

when my kids got it doctors were not overly concerned other than the prospect of scarring

Chicken pox vaccination is not a routine childhood vaccination in Ireland, but it is in a number of countries, notably the United States.

In Ireland, people normally get vaccinated the natural way, by contracting the disease in childhood. In children it's not a threatening disease, and one infection typically confers lifelong immunity. Some parents make a point of exposing their children to chicken pox so that they will develop immunity.

(Immunity doesn't mean that you can't get, or carry, the infection; just that you won't suffer any symptoms. So you can be immune, and still serve as a vector of infection for others.)

In adulthood it's a much more serious disease. It can be lethal, and even if not itself lethal can lead to pneumonia, meningitis or encephalitis, each of which can itself be lethal. Infection in pregnant women can produce severe deformities in the infant.

So, yeah, introducing it to a population with zero natural immunity (and, of course, zero immunisation) could be catastrophic.

Pawwed Rig

But the quote

'US health officials say vaccinating is far safer than getting chickenpox' is BS then considering that the article is about children.
How it transmits to non immunized adults is the key issue that does not seem to be mentioned in the article

seamus

I feel we're a little behind the times on this. We consider chickenpox to be "just another thing kids get". 50 years ago they said that about the mumps and measles.

To the typical/average sufferer, chickenpox generally poses little threat beyond a couple of days of discomfort.

It's the non-typical categories of people to whom it presents a greater threat - infants, pregnant women, immunocompromised people, people with lung diseases (such as CF), older people, etc.

Chickenpox is also effectively a lifelong illness, like herpes. The varicella zoster virus sits dormant in the body and can be reactivated at any time, resulting in shingles. Shingles too, can spread chickenpox to people who have not had it.

We downplay it, but there is no good argument for favouring infection above vaccination other than, "Ah sure, be grand".

robindch

seamus wrote: »

To the typical/average sufferer, chickenpox generally poses little threat beyond a couple of days of discomfort.

Chickenpox is also effectively a lifelong illness, like herpes. The varicella zoster virus sits dormant in the body and can be reactivated at any time, resulting in shingles. Shingles too, can spread chickenpox to people who have not had it.

Yes, as you say, chickenpox itself isn't a major problem. On the other hand, shingles can be literally a major pain in the ass for anybody who's ever suffered a dose on their S3 or higher nerve pathways, and especially those brave souls who've had to endure long-haul flights with S3 infections, for whom I have the deepest and most septic sympathies.

robindch

seamus wrote: »

A American missionary has been killed by arrows after illegally landing on an island inhabited by a protected and famously hostile indigenous population

Seems Mr Chau was there for Jesus after all.

According to diary entries released by his family, he was repeatedly warned off by not only the islanders themselves, but also by Jesus, who caused an arrow to be shot towards Chau, but which instead became lodged in Chau's bible. Authorities have said it might take some time to recover the body from the shallow grave it appears to have been placed in by the islanders.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/22/john-allen-chau-man-killed-by-tribe-north-sentinel-island-declare-jesus

Hotblack Desiato

In their culture, being arrowed to death and bunged in a shallow grave is a great honour :cool:

recedite

I hollered: ‘My name is John, I love you and Jesus loves you.’ I regret I began to panic slightly as I saw them string arrows in their bows. I picked up the fish and threw it towards them. They kept coming.

These words will go down in the annals of Famous Last Words.
Farewell John, and godspeed.

Hotblack Desiato

Is godspeed faster than leafspeed*? I don't think NASA ever defined it.



* that slightly annoying just-a-bit-slower-than-everyone-except-HGVs speed EV owners do to eke out the range

recedite

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Is godspeed faster than leafspeed*?

The EVs of course have phenomenal acceleration 0-60 mph. Its just that they tire easily, like a cheetah.


I like godspeed because it sounds respectful, but it has a whimsical edge which is suited to certain special occasions.

Anyway, I think we can probably deduce now that waving a fish at the Sentinelese is a terrible insult, or possibly waving the wrong species of fish is.
Science and the sum of human knowledge has progressed on by that small amount, and for that we thank John and his noble sacrifice.

Hotblack Desiato

Well, it's probable the average planetary IQ went up ever so slightly.

It went up a bit more than that when the "Jeesus will save me" guy climbed into a lion enclosure a while back.

Gotta love those fundie xtians, making the planet smarter just by removing themselves from the gene pool

Pawwed Rig

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It went up a bit more than that when the "Jeesus will save me" guy climbed into a lion enclosure a while back.

A while back being 13 years ago. See post number 1 of this thread

TomSweeney

https://twitter.com/UmmAlMumineen/status/1065955781831548928

I hope this enlightened guy is ok, he could easily be killed in the future.

TomSweeney

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Well, it's probable the average planetary IQ went up ever so slightly.

It went up a bit more than that when the "Jeesus will save me" guy climbed into a lion enclosure a while back.

Gotta love those fundie xtians, making the planet smarter just by removing themselves from the gene pool

Brilliant, you say it with such glee!!!

robindch

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

A while back being 13 years ago. See post number 1 of this thread

Yikes

smacl

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Gotta love those fundie xtians, making the planet smarter just by removing themselves from the gene pool

A firm contender for a Darwin award for sure.

Odhinn

"Four men have been held over the killing of an Indian police officer in mob violence that erupted after rumours spread that cows had been slaughtered.
Subodh Kumar Singh was killed as police clashed with right-wing Hindu groups which said police failed to halt the killing of cows in Uttar Pradesh state.
Cows are considered holy by India's majority Hindu population and many states have now banned cow slaughter."


"Many states, including Uttar Pradesh, have actively started enforcing bans on cow slaughter after the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) formed India's federal government in 2014."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-46436569

robindch

Giulia Grillo, the Minister of Health in the populist-led Italian government, has fired all thirty expert members of the country's Higher Health Council, which provides expert medical opinion to the Italian government, in order to "give space to the new".

Ms Grillo holds, for example, a variety of views on the efficacy of vaccines having, earlier this year, removed the necessity to vaccinate children, then rapidly reversing her position when the new school year saw a measles epidemic strike Italian schools.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/04/politically-motivated-italys-m5s-sacks-peak-board-of-health-experts
https://www.newsweek.com/anti-vaccine-italian-government-sacks-entire-health-expert-board-1242759

Obi_Wan_Kenobi

Odhinn wrote: »

"Four men have been held over the killing of an Indian police officer in mob violence that erupted after rumours spread that cows had been slaughtered.
Subodh Kumar Singh was killed as police clashed with right-wing Hindu groups which said police failed to halt the killing of cows in Uttar Pradesh state.
Cows are considered holy by India's majority Hindu population and many states have now banned cow slaughter."


"Many states, including Uttar Pradesh, have actively started enforcing bans on cow slaughter after the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) formed India's federal government in 2014."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-46436569

A much bigger hazard in India
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus

- But I'm sure you won't thank this post.
That persecution/hate is just dandy isn't it ?

smacl

Obi_Wan_Kenobi wrote: »

A much bigger hazard in India
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus

- But I'm sure you won't thank this post.
That persecution/hate is just dandy isn't it ?

Type persecution of <x> into t'internet where <x> represents any sufficiently large population, and you get the same thing

Persecution of Muslims
Persecution of Christians
Persecution of atheists

What you're actually looking at is persecution of any minority by a majority, quite often a religious majority or racial majority who feel justified in their barbarism. Who'd be a hater?

oscarBravo

Obi_Wan_Kenobi wrote: »

That persecution/hate is just dandy isn't it ?

Why would persecution of anyone be just dandy?

Odhinn

Obi_Wan_Kenobi wrote: »

A much bigger hazard in India
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus

- But I'm sure you won't thank this post.
That persecution/hate is just dandy isn't it ?

...what are you on about?

Obi_Wan_Kenobi

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6471059/Irish-lecturer-stabbed-death-Paris-insulted-Mohammed-says-Pakistani-killer.html

That poor man in Paris, killed because he insulted a fairytale prophet.

Irish lecturer stabbed to death in Paris had 'insulted the Prophet Mohammed', says his Pakistani killer
John Dowling, 66, stabbed to death outside the Leonardo de Vinci university
Ali R., 37, was arrested at the scene and has admitted to killing the Irish lecturer
The Pakistani national claims Dowling had ‘insulted the Prophet Mohammed'
He also confessed he held a personal grudge against Dowling for failing him

Hotblack Desiato

All gods and prophets are fictional (well, prophets existed I suppose but their belief that they were a messenger of a god were deluded)

You trying to make out that some deluded belief is better than another? It isn't, and deluded belivers in religion A will be assholes towards believers in religion B. Substitute any value of A and any value of B. A is taught from the cradle to hate B. And some still think religion makes people better people?

silverharp

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

All gods and prophets are fictional (well, prophets existed I suppose but their belief that they were a messenger of a god were deluded)

You trying to make out that some deluded belief is better than another? It isn't, and deluded belivers in religion A will be assholes towards believers in religion B. Substitute any value of A and any value of B. A is taught from the cradle to hate B. And some still think religion makes people better people?

that would have to be true, how could it not be? different beliefs lead to different actions

TomSweeney

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

All gods and prophets are fictional (well, prophets existed I suppose but their belief that they were a messenger of a god were deluded)

You trying to make out that some deluded belief is better than another? It isn't, and deluded belivers in religion A will be assholes towards believers in religion B. Substitute any value of A and any value of B. A is taught from the cradle to hate B. And some still think religion makes people better people?

eh .. how is he trying to make that out ??
The story is a hazard of belief - that's it ... he was stabbed from a religious motive .... thats it!

But I guess putting a false narrative - it's a nice way so you don't need to thank the post.
Imagine if he had been killed by some christian nutter ? - the post would have 20 thanks by now .... carry on "intellectuals" ...

smacl

TomSweeney wrote: »

eh .. how is he trying to make that out ??
The story is a hazard of belief - that's it ... he was stabbed from a religious motive .... thats it!

Not really though, is it? From the previous post;

The Pakistani national claims Dowling had ‘insulted the Prophet Mohammed' He also confessed he held a personal grudge against Dowling for failing him

Looking a little deeper we see from the Irish Times

Pascal Brouaye, the director of the university, told journalists at an impromptu press conference a few metres from the scene that the Pakistani student had been extremely unhappy when he was told that regulations prevented him repeating the year and that he had to leave the university.

and that the full quote from the original article was

Now Ali R. – the Pakistani national under arrest for the killing – has confessed that he held a personal grudge against the teacher after failing his exams last year, and particularly hated Mr Dowling.

But I guess putting a false narrative - it's a nice way so you don't need to thank the post.
Imagine if he had been killed by some christian nutter ? - the post would have 20 thanks by now .... carry on "intellectuals" ...

Seems to me that religion wasn't the primary motive at all, but hey, don't let that interfere with your own anti-islamic narrative now will you. :rolleyes:

recedite

smacl wrote: »

Seems to me that religion wasn't the primary motive at all, but hey, don't let that interfere with your own anti-islamic narrative now will you.

There's two motives here. One is that Prof Dowling "failed the student" and the other is that he insulted Islam.
Now given that loads of students fail their exams, and it's normally the students own fault, the first is not a great motive.
And given that Pakistanis are known to get very upset about blasphemers and regularly kill them, the second motive would appear to be more significant.
In reality the guy would have mixed the two motives together in his head. He would have used the blasphemy thing to justify the morality of the murder, in his own mind.


But as usual, SMACL seeks to deflect and to justify. He will do anything to excuse the despicable behaviour that stems from Islamic ideologies, and instead he prefers to continue lambasting the "racists" and the "Islamophobes".

smacl

recedite wrote: »

There's two motives here. One is that Prof Dowling "failed the student" and the other is that he insulted Islam.
Now given that loads of students fail their exams, and it's normally the students own fault, the first is not a great motive.
And given that Pakistanis are known to get very upset about blasphemers and regularly kill them, the second motive would appear to be more significant.
In reality the guy would have mixed the two motives together in his head. He would have used the blasphemy thing to justify the morality of the murder, in his own mind.


But as usual, SMACL seeks to deflect and to justify. He will do anything to excuse the despicable behaviour that stems from Islamic ideologies, and instead he prefers to continue lambasting the "racists" and the "Islamophobes".

Rubbish. If you look at the many hundreds of school shootings in recent years, you see a very large proportion are committed by unhappy or disaffected students and ex-students and a notable absence due to angry Pakistanis getting upset about Islam being insulted. If you wanted to pick on killers of school children and teachers by nominal religion, Christians lead by a few orders of magnitude. The number of U.S. students killed in school shootings so far this year is greater than the number of U.S. military personnel who have been killed in combat operations (Source). But hey, those Muslims, real psychos huh Rec?

recedite

What have school shootings in the USA got to do with this?
An Irish professor in France was stabbed in the chest and had his throat cut. It all seems a bit halal.

smacl

recedite wrote: »

What have school shootings in the USA got to do with this?

1: Students, from your post, go to schools and colleges.

recedite wrote: »

Now given that loads of students fail their exams, and it's normally the students own fault, the first is not a great motive.

2: Search for school killings and you get campus shootings in the US, which is where the vast bulk of fatalities and serious injuries of this type occur.

An Irish professor in France was stabbed in the chest, by his ex student, and had his throat cut.

FYP.

It all seems a bit halal.

Strange place to find humour. Takes all kinds.

recedite

smacl wrote: »

Strange place to find humour. Takes all kinds.

I'm not laughing, are you?

I suppose you're going to say there is nothing at all about the method of killing that seems in any way connected with Islam, or any previous Islamic killings, or Islamic ritual slaughter.

And instead, you just deflect to American gun crime.

smacl

recedite wrote: »

I'm not laughing, are you?

I suppose you're going to say there is nothing at all about the method of killing that seems in any way connected with Islam, or any previous Islamic killings, or Islamic ritual slaughter.

And instead, you just deflect to American gun crime.

So now it is a ritual killing? Seriously Rec? I assume you're able cite a bit of background on Islamic ritual slaughter as applied to people rather than food preparation to support your entirely bizarre statement above. Because there are no shortage of cases of pissed of students attacking teachers they despise, but I can't see any that involve killing them via Islamic ritual slaughter.

TomSweeney

Pathetic, desperately trying to find any defence.

oscarBravo

recedite wrote: »

An Irish professor in France was stabbed in the chest and had his throat cut. It all seems a bit halal.

He was stabbed several times in the chest and throat. If he had been stabbed by a non-Muslim, it would have been obvious that when you're stabbing someone who's facing you, the chest and throat are likely targets. But when it's a Muslim doing the stabbing, suddenly the victim "had his throat cut" and it's presented as "halal" and "ritual".

But I'm sure that has nothing whatsoever to do with prejudice.

TomSweeney

https://twitter.com/RitaPanahi/status/1071155543769669633

Hotblack Desiato

I'm not sure what your point is, is there anyone on this forum who doesn't think that sharia law is abhorrent?

TomSweeney

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I'm not sure what your point is, is there anyone on this forum who doesn't think that sharia law is abhorrent?

no point - apart from this threads purpose - it is one of the many hazards of belief though yeah ?

Will we split hairs ?

Hotblack Desiato

TomSweeney wrote: »

no point - apart from this threads purpose - it is one of the many hazards of belief though yeah ?

Will we split hairs ?

Not you, but another recent recruit to this forum seems to think Hinduism is great and all other religions are bad.

PopePalpatine

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I'm not sure what your point is, is there anyone on this forum who doesn't think that sharia law is abhorrent?

I can imagine a few are fans of the white flavour that sprouted out of the darkest depths of the Internet.

TomSweeney

Poor lad



https://www.bbc.com/news/46548994

A monk meditating in a forest in the Indian state of Maharashtra has died in a leopard attack, officials say.

Rahul Walke had been "meditating under a tree" in the Tadoba forest, which is a protected tiger reserve, officials told PTI news agency.

Walke had been attached to a Buddhist temple which is inside the forest, but he had walked to a spot quite far away from it to meditate.

Zubeneschamali

TomSweeney wrote: »

A monk meditating in a forest in the Indian state of Maharashtra has died in a leopard attack, officials say.
Rahul Walke had been "meditating under a tree" in the Tadoba forest

In fairness, we all have to go somehow, and this would look good on a headstone.


"Here lies Zube, killed by a leopard while meditating beneath a tree".

recedite

Killed by a tiger would have looked better.
I reckon I'd have a fair chance of fighting off a leopard, but then I'm not a vegan buddhist monk.


Still, it could have been worse; "Killed by a Honey badger" or "Hunted down by a sloth".

The Tadoba reserve is home to an estimated 88 tigers. It is also home to a large variety of other animals, including leopards, sloth bears, hyenas and honey badgers.

smacl

recedite wrote: »

Still, it could have been worse; "Killed by a Honey badger"

I'm guessing you haven't seen a honey badger in action. Here's one getting attacked by a bunch of lions;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvlalDNxccw

As for fighting off a leopard, unless you were armed, I wouldn't much fancy your odds there either.

Hotblack Desiato

Catholic Archbishop: If Your Religion Contradicts the Law, Ignore the Law

Allahu Akbar! Kill the infidel! It's only a law, right?