The Hazards of Belief

smacl

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Robert Tilton

People make youtube videos of him doing his schtick with his weird facial expressions, with added fart sounds. That's how I recognised him, and 'farting preacher' on youtube delivered the goods as it were.

Always makes me think of Ron White on a bean bag eating cheetos...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3rBBRIVYsc

smacl

I see Trump is back in the news, this time accused of inciting hatred towards Ilhan Omar. The accusations seem justified from where I'm sitting, typical Trump hate mongering tactics.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1116817144006750209?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1116817144006750209&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rte.ie%2Fnews%2Fworld%2F2019%2F0415%2F1042627-trump-tweet-controversy%2F

Pawwed Rig

No matter what bad stuff happens in US these days Trump is blamed. It is beyond farcical. He has even been blamed for the Smollet incident.

That is not to say the man is not a dope but every frigging story mentions Trump now.

ohnonotgmail

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

No matter what bad stuff happens in US these days Trump is blamed. It is beyond farcical. He has even been blamed for the Smollet incident.

That is not to say the man is not a dope but every frigging story mentions Trump now.

In this instance he was blamed because he did it. I dont see what your actual objection is.

Pawwed Rig

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I dont see what your actual objection is.

Hysteria around Donald Trump. He tweets about 9/11 - massive news story. He doesn't tweet about 9/11 - massive news story. It is beyond silly.

ohnonotgmail

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Hysteria around Donald Trump. He tweets about 9/11 - massive news story. He doesn't tweet about 9/11 - massive news story. It is beyond silly.

I dont see any hysteria in the linked article.

recedite

The Somali said something stupid. If a politician says something stupid, it will be highlighted by somebody somewhere, and then they only have themselves to blame.

"For far too long, we have lived with the discomfort of being a second-class citizen and, frankly, I'm tired of it, and every single Muslim in this country should be tired of it," she said.
"CAIR was founded after 9/11," she added, "because they recognised that some people did something and that all of us were starting to lose access to our civil liberties."

The article goes on to say

The civil rights group was in fact founded in 1994 but grew significantly after 2001.
The speech did not initially receive significant attention until the snippet in question was highlighted weeks later by controversial Australian personality Mohammad Tawhidi who refers to himself as the "Imam of Peace."

So not only did she trivialise the deaths of 3000 people, but she was wrong about the history of Cair. And it was an Imam who first called her out. The Donald just followed the Imam's lead.


The Imam has some more advice for devout fellow Muslims, including this gem; "if you don't want to be in photos, don't do photoshoots"
https://twitter.com/imamofpeace/status/1116244113005920257

smacl

recedite wrote: »

The Somali said something stupid.

Referring to somebody in the third person by their country of origin is pretty dumb too, not to mention unpleasant.

The Imam has some more advice for devout fellow Muslims

Given his fellow Muslims call this rather dodgy imam as "the fake Sheikh" I wouldn't say that advice will get much attention outside of his far right fan-boys.

Odhinn

recedite wrote: »

The Somali said something stupid..................

You mean the US senator. At least try to keep the mask on.

recedite

smacl wrote: »

Referring to somebody in the third person by their country of origin is pretty dumb too, not to mention unpleasant.

Truth justifies itself, it does not need to be dressed up in pleasantries. She is a Somali Muslim. That is at the heart of the issue.

The truth is, a real American would not have said what she said. Different mindset.

Odhinn

recedite wrote: »

Truth justifies itself, it does not need to be dressed up in pleasantries. She is a Somali Muslim. That is at the heart of the issue.

The truth is, a real American would not have said what she said. Different mindset.

Vile xenophobic nonsense.

recedite

Odhinn wrote: »

Vile xenophobic nonsense.

Can I escape this charge by stating that I am not an American? :pac:

smacl

recedite wrote: »

The truth is, a real American would not have said what she said. Different mindset.

Real American, as in Sioux, Cherokee, etc..? Sure the rest are all just ex-Imperial blow-ins that brought their racist baggage with them from Europe.

Can I escape this charge by stating that I am not an American?

I'm sure you'd fit right in.

Pawwed Rig

You downplay 9/11 and the opposition are gonna be all over you. Silly thing to do tbf

smacl

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

You downplay 9/11 and the opposition are gonna be all over you. Silly thing to do tbf

Given she's been receiving death threats, including a plan to assassinate her stopped by the FBI, I would suggest silly isn't really where this is at. Trump seems all to keen to encourage this far-right hate-fueled violence. Decent article yesterday in the Guardian covering the hate campaign directed at Ilhan Omar and the remarks she's made compared to those made by other American politicians. From the start of this article

Here’s a question for you. Which American politician publicly referred to the terrorists who carried out the 9/11 attacks as “those folks who committed this act,” seemingly downplaying its horrors? Was it Minnesota representative Ilhan Omar? No. Try George W Bush.

Here’s another one. Which American politician publicly called Benjamin Netanyahu “your prime minister” while addressing a crowd of Jewish American supporters. Since the statement assumes Jewish Americans carry a dual loyalty to both Israel and the United States, you might assume it was Ilhan Omar, based on all we’ve been told about her. In fact, it was Donald Trump.

She hasn't actually said anything more inflammatory on the topics she's been so heavily criticised on than those around her. But then I guess they're real Americans, not those Somalis with that mindset of theirs. :rolleyes:

robindch

recedite wrote: »

The truth is, a real American would not have said what she said.

An almost perfect example of the No True Scotsman fallacy:

https://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/no-true-scotsman/

A+A deserves better than that kind of silly trollery from you.

recedite

Not quite. The Scotsman analogy would hold true if I was saying she was "not an American" because of what she said.
Whereas I refer to her as a Somali because she was born in Somalia and is ethnically a Somali.

She may or may not have gained US citizenship since, and it may well happen that the next generation of her family will think like Americans. But she does not.

robindch

recedite wrote: »

Whereas I refer to her as a Somali because she was born in Somalia and is ethnically a Somali.

Ilhan Omar was granted US citizenship some twenty-odd years ago - and as an American citizen, she is therefore legally "American". The word "ethnic" has no agreed meaning in international law, so your claim that she is "ethnically" something or other is meaningless.

Relatedly, given that the majority of the inhabitants of Crimea were born in Ukraine (either as an SSR or as an independent country), your location-of-birth claim suggests that you believe most Crimeans are Ukrainians, despite your support for the flagrantly fake 2014 vote there and Putin's subsequent invasion and theft of the region.

recedite wrote: »

[...] it may well happen that the next generation of her family will think like Americans. But she does not.

The US is a country of obviously opposing opinions and beliefs - just like Somalia and, indeed, Ireland are - so I would almost be interested to hear from you what could possibly constitute "thinking like Americans", were it not certain to invite further word salad.

Your claim that Ilhan Omar said what no "real American" would have said remains, as above, an excellent instance of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

realdanbreen

Very sad to see an iconic building like Notre Dame burn down.

smacl

realdanbreen wrote: »

Very sad to see an iconic building like Notre Dame burn down.

It is, although the blaze is under control and Macron has publicly stated that they will restore the damage. That said, not sure what this has to do with atheism or a hazard of belief. Act of God maybe?

pauldla

realdanbreen wrote: »

Very sad to see an iconic building like Notre Dame burn down.

Indeed. Not the first time it's been damaged though, I believe, and as it's one of the most well-known buildings in the world they will hopefully be able to repair much of the damage. The artifacts it housed, however, are a different matter.

Not so much a 'hazard of belief' as a 'hazard of poor renovation standards', perhaps...?

smacl

recedite wrote: »

Not quite. The Scotsman analogy would hold true if I was saying she was "not an American" because of what she said.
Whereas I refer to her as a Somali because she was born in Somalia and is ethnically a Somali.

Utter rubbish. You said "The truth is, a real American would not have said what she said". The real American in your above statement is not Ilhan Omar, and this is about as clear cut an example of the 'No true Scotsman' fallacy as you are likely to encounter.

recedite

robindch wrote: »

The word "ethnic" has no agreed meaning in international law, so your claim that she is "ethnically" something or other is meaningless.

From your link...

the United Nations Minorities Declaration in its article 1 refers to minorities as based on national or ethnic, cultural, religious and linguistic identity, and provides that States should protect their existence. There is no internationally agreed definition as to which groups constitute minorities.

Somalis are a well known ethnic group native to East Africa.

Most of us have friends or relatives who emigrated to the US. We don't generally consider that they have ceased to be Irish. I don't think that is particularly controversial.
But if you want to create a lot of froth and fury over it, go right ahead without me.

magicbastarder

recedite wrote: »

The truth is, a real American would not have said what she said. Different mindset.

timothy mcveigh obviously wasn't 'a real american'; maybe we can get a dartboard out to arbitrarily decide his nationality.

recedite

magicbastarder wrote: »

timothy mcveigh obviously wasn't 'a real american'; maybe we can get a dartboard out to arbitrarily decide his nationality.

Now that is a proper example of the "no true Scotsman" logical fallacy, while simultaneously being an example of the strawman fallacy.
Well done!

oscarBravo

I'm working on the assumption, in the absence of compelling evidence to the contrary, that when recedite says "real American" what he means is "white and non-Muslim".

NIMAN

Not sure if correct forum, but anyone find it slightly ironic that Parisians gathered last night to say prayers after the burning down of Notre Dame cathedral?

Firstly, if God existed why did he let one of his churches, which took man 200 years to build, burn down?

What exactly are these prayers for? What is their aim?

recedite

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm working on the assumption, in the absence of compelling evidence to the contrary, that when recedite says "real American" what he means is "white and non-Muslim".

Not at all, the USA has many religions and is a multi-racial, though not multi-cultural, society.

Odhinn

recedite wrote: »

Not at all, the USA has many religions and is a multi-racial, though not multi-cultural, society.

Yet you saw fit to single out one of them with "The Somali said something stupid.". What's worse, you've been trying to down play it since.

smacl

recedite wrote: »

Not at all, the USA has many religions and is a multi-racial, though not multi-cultural, society.

Is that right kemo sabe?

oscarBravo

recedite wrote: »

Not at all, the USA has many religions and is a multi-racial, though not multi-cultural, society.

For the avoidance of doubt: a denial from you doesn't come close to "compelling evidence to the contrary".

Hector Savage

smacl wrote: »

Referring to somebody in the third person by their country of origin is pretty dumb too, not to mention unpleasant.

deflect deflect deflect ...

Given his fellow Muslims call this rather dodgy imam as "the fake Sheikh" I wouldn't say that advice will get much attention outside of his far right fan-boys.

Yeah, I think an Imam that grew up in Iran would know more of the hazards of radical Islam than yourself!
edit - Have you read his backstory ? seen what he has been through?
He used to be pretty radical himself, he knows the real dangers and is trying to reform the religion from the inside - very much like Maajid Nawaz, he gets more hate from the Islamists than from the far right.

Odhinn

Hector Savage wrote: »

deflect deflect deflect ...

"deflect" from what?

Hector Savage

No surprise that most on here are getting behind the Islamists.

Jesus Christ, why did I ****ing come back!!!

Odhinn

Hector Savage wrote: »

No surprise that most on here are getting behind the Islamists.

Jesus Christ, why did I ****ing come back!!!

What are you on about? Links and a cohesive argument please.

Hector Savage

Odhinn wrote: »

What are you on about? Links and a cohesive argument please.

You need links for the previous pages of this thread ???

Odhinn

Hector Savage wrote: »

You need links for the previous pages of this thread ???

No, I need to see a cohesive argument on your part.

Hector Savage

Odhinn wrote: »

No, I need to see a cohesive argument on your part.

Most people here are defending Ilhan Omar.
She dismissed 9/11.
She has spoken of Al Qaeda :

I know we've allready been down here, and I retracted some of what I said, but I can't ignore this.
If you don't think there is anything at least mildly wrong with the above video, then fair enough - each to their own.

I can't nor don't want to convince you.
But for me , it's enough to not trust her.

I trust this guy
https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1117395973137936384?s=20
His experiences count for a lot more than mine or yours - it's safe to say he knows what he's talking about.


But he's far right ... he's far right ...

https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1106450375517851648?s=20

yeah ... sure he is.

Odhinn

Hector Savage wrote: »

Most people here are defending Ilhan Omar.
She dismissed 9/11.
She has spoken of Al Qaeda :
(............).

So you're having a spasm because people don't rgree with your cherry picked "quotes"

smacl

Hector Savage wrote: »

If you don't think there is anything at least mildly wrong with the above video, then fair enough - each to their own.

I don't see anything wrong with the video. Could you enlighten us perhaps on what, specifically is wrong here?

Hector Savage

smacl wrote: »

I don't see anything wrong with the video. Could you enlighten us perhaps on what, specifically is wrong here?

No, if you can't see what's wrong here, there is nothing more I can say.

This forum , really hilarious - "atheists" that **** all over christianity, but wet themselves over Islam.

smacl

Hector Savage wrote: »

Yeah, I think an Imam that grew up in Iran would know more of the hazards of radical Islam than yourself!
edit - Have you read his backstory ? seen what he has been through?
He used to be pretty radical himself, he knows the real dangers and is trying to reform the religion from the inside - very much like Maajid Nawaz, he gets more hate from the Islamists than from the far right.

Of course he gets more hate from the Islamists that the far right, he's a puppet of the far right. Also, he's not even an Imam, from the previously linked article;

Tawhidi is not recognised as an Imam or Sheikh by either the Australian National Imams Council or its South Australian equivalent, nor is he affiliated with any Australian mosque or prayer centre. The only religious instruction he offers is a self-described "university standard" Islamic Studies class delivered from a rented classroom at the University of South Australia.

As for the article this is drawn from, it was written by Chloe Patton who has significant experience in this area (doctorate, research fellow, and numerous citations in peer reviewed work )

I trust this guy
His experiences count for a lot more than mine or yours - it's safe to say he knows what he's talking about.

Why exactly do you trust this guy, other than his stance happens to be a good fit for your own worldview? Have you looked at him with a critical eye, or is this just blind faith? From where I'm sitting the allegations that this guy is a fake seem to stand up to scrutiny.

smacl

Hector Savage wrote: »

No, if you can't see what's wrong here, there is nothing more I can say.

This forum , really hilarious - "atheists" that **** all over christianity, but wet themselves over Islam.

I can't, please enlighten us. Second time of asking, what specifically is wrong with the video?

Mark Hamill

Hector Savage wrote: »

Most people here are defending Ilhan Omar.
She dismissed 9/11.
She has spoken of Al Qaeda :

Are you just bothered by her simply saying the phrase "Al Qaeda" without the reverence of the lecturer she references?

Also, did you watch the video, because she doesn't dismiss 9/11 anywhere in it. Both people in the video discuss about how when a Muslim does something violent, the discussion tends to be how Islam is violent, however when a white person does something violent, the discussion is about mental issues. This is a point raised on this and other forums, muslim mass murderer = terrorist, white mass murdered = lone gun maniac, and it's a valid point to make and question.

magicbastarder

NIMAN wrote: »

Not sure if correct forum, but anyone find it slightly ironic that Parisians gathered last night to say prayers after the burning down of Notre Dame cathedral?

Firstly, if God existed why did he let one of his churches, which took man 200 years to build, burn down?

What exactly are these prayers for? What is their aim?

I suspect I'm not alone in finding out slightly off putting that 36 hours later, there's already nearly one billion Euro pledged to restore a church.

Hector Savage

smacl wrote: »

I can't, please enlighten us. Second time of asking, what specifically is wrong with the video?

She is speaking about it with awe, laughing at the "Terrorism class" she took, clearly in awe of the whole fight against the west.
She hates the west and is an advocate of Sharia law.

IF you can't see how this isn't compatible with liberal western values then I can't say anything more.

If someone asked me why raping kids is wrong, i wouldn't bother explaining either ...

Hector Savage

magicbastarder wrote: »

I suspect I'm not alone in finding out slightly off putting that 36 hours later, there's already nearly one billion Euro pledged to restore a church.

Yeah God forbid!!!!!

*pun intended.

How dare they restore a historic building ~900 years old.
Its not just religion you know, it's art, history and architecture.

smacl

Hector Savage wrote: »

She is speaking about it with awe, laughing at the "Terrorism class" she took, clearly in awe of the whole fight against the west.

Not her awe though, she is laughing at the apparent awe of her lecturer. It hardly deserves the faux outrage you seem to be struggling to get out.

She hates the west and is an advocate of Sharia law.

Do you have any proof whatsoever of this? She's a US senator, which kind of suggests being very much part of the west.

IF you can't see how this isn't compatible with liberal western values then I can't say anything more.

You've provided nothing to support any of this though. You're having a rant at the black lady in the scarf because she's a Muslim and you clearly don't like Muslims, but you have failed entirely in finding anything to suggest there's any issue with her. I don't doubt you've nothing more to say because I don't think you had anything much to say in the first instance.

If someone asked me why raping kids is wrong, i wouldn't bother explaining either ...

Haven't seem a non-sequitur that big in a while. How about if someone was acting the bigot, would you need to explain that?

seamus

Hector Savage wrote: »

She is speaking about it with awe, laughing at the "Terrorism class" she took, clearly in awe of the whole fight against the west.

That's all in your head. You have completely bought into the narrative that the person who edited that video wants you to believe. This "awe" you claim to see, doesn't exist.

Her point is very clear in what they're discussing; in a terrorism class the lecturer's body language very clearly revealed his personal feelings on the topic.

Any honest terrorism class would discuss terrorism from Muslims, non-Muslim and state actors alike. But in this case, the lecturer was displaying a very clear discomfort with Islamic terrorism specifically, not with any other kinds.

Naturally then the discussion goes on to point out the obvious - that domestic (white) terrorism kills way more people in the USA, yet Islamic terrorism is the thing they lose their sh1t over.

This is free speech. This is the kind of honest discourse that anti-Muslim people would love to squash so that they can continue pretend that there's a Muslim horde battering on the gates rather than discuss the home-grown barbarians already living and murdering inside the city walls.

magicbastarder

someone who is in favour of sharia law managed to get elected as a US senator?
the US is much more inclusive than i'd suspected.