The Hazards of Belief

mikhail

Fair point. The only remnant of that sort of teaching nowadays is probably a little Shakespeare in second level. However, I think children are taught certain biblical stories I mentioned, like the prodigal son, in religion class. Perhaps my memory fails me, and I'm confusing church and school (a common problem in this country!).

amacachi

I'd prefer not to limit kids to only learning about the bible and so on. I regret the whole time now that I have no idea about other cultures when the only thing mentioned in school is Christian stuff. I can forgive people for thinking that Europe is and was the only place that ever mattered or was civilised. It was secondary school before I learned about how it was the Greeks who came up with geometry and all that, then I find out it was done ages before that by middle easterners and Persians and all that. Then ya find out about how loads of old maths is translated from Sanskrit stuff from around India millenia ago and that's before even considering China. :pac:

Religion is only a part of it, knowledge rather than just being aware of other cultures and histories is important to me.

ShooterSF

Sad to see someone having to move town because of their beliefs and sadder to get a teeny feeling that xenophobia was at play too.

robindch

Fundamentalist islam has been on the rise in the Caucasus since the fall of Communism and has been instrumental in the ongoing misery in Chechnya, Ingushetia. Here's a tough report from the BBC in Dagestan:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15824831

There's a TV version of the above on Newsnight this evening at 2230h.

dmw07

robindch wrote: »

Fundamentalist islam has been on the rise in the Caucasus since the fall of Communism and has been instrumental in the ongoing misery in Chechnya, Ingushetia. Here's a tough report from the BBC in Dagestan:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15824831

There's a TV version of the above on Newsnight this evening at 2230h.

In fairness, even Stalin could not get rid of the extremist Chechens. They are an absolute mental race according to Russian friends. The Islamic community has slowly integrated with the locals over a period of hundreds of years. Since communism fell, their shenanigans have been tolerated. A reason why i find it hard to tolerate any religion tbh.

Below is the video of Russians unveiling to the world, The new soon to be rebuilt Grozny. It was done because the country was in such a state. I can only imagine what it is like now.

robindch

dmw07 wrote: »

In fairness, even Stalin could not get rid of the extremist Chechens.

He did his best. In 1944, he had the entire nation deported to Siberia and the Steppes of Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan at the cost of an unknown number of lives:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_%28Caucasus%29

dmw07 wrote: »

They are an absolute mental race according to Russian friends.

Russian behavior in the region, propelled by the usual paranoid concerns about the encroachment of Iranian and Turkish islam at the expense of Russian orthodox christianity, has been doing nothing to help the situation for at least 250 years.

I recall one report from the early part of the 19th century in which a Russian officer, who had just blown the leg off a Chechen fighter advancing upon his position, reported with fascinated horror that the dying man picked up the severed limb, hopped towards the officer's position and pitched it at him in a dying gesture of defiance.

BTW, Grozny (in cyrillic 'Грозный') means "terrible" or "appalling" in Russian. As in Иван Грозный, Ivan the Terrible. Less kak-handed management of local sensitivities might go a long way towards helping things.

Asne Seierstad's book Angel of Grozny: Inside Chechnya is worth reading in order to understand the horror of the place today. The current Chechen leader, Ramzan Kadyrov, is a violent islamic fundamentalist in the pay of the Russian government.

dmw07

robindch wrote: »

He did his best. In 1944, he had the entire nation deported to Siberia and the Steppes of Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan at the cost of an unknown number of lives:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_%28Caucasus%29

Russian behavior in the region, propelled by the usual paranoid concerns about the encroachment of Iranian and Turkish islam at the expense of Russian orthodox christianity, has been doing nothing to help the situation for at least 250 years.

I recall one report from the early part of the 19th century in which a Russian officer, who had just blown the leg off a Chechen fighter advancing upon his position, reported with fascinated horror that the dying man picked up the severed limb, hopped towards the officer's position and pitched it at him in a dying gesture of defiance.

BTW, Grozny (in cyrillic 'Грозный') means "terrible" or "appalling" in Russian. As in Иван Грозный, Ivan the Terrible. Less kak-handed management of local sensitivities might go a long way towards helping things.

Asne Seierstad's book Angel of Grozny: Inside Chechnya is worth reading in order to understand the horror of the place today. The current Chechen leader, Ramzan Kadyrov, is a violent islamic fundamentalist in the pay of the Russian government.

I'm impressed with your knowledge! Cool. There is a long and checkered history in Chechnya as you know, in regards to ethnic cleansing. It's the turn of the Islamic people now. Part of the problem, and a small reason the Islamic community can do what they are doing is because the country people have been raping, murdering and generally violating other humans for a very long time. Stalin has a part to play in starting the ball rolling, in the recent trouble i feel as he set the breeding ground for people to fight amongst themselves.

This link shows some of the horror. Eye witness accounts of the treatment dished out in Checnya during 1991-1995*.
http://royconrad.com/english/genocide/genocide_1.htm

It's hard to hold back the tears reading through all of those personal notes, and i'm a bloke.

Check out http://royconrad.com for more from Roy.

A conflict that occurred as a result of Stalin's "relocation" operation.
You'll need google translator turned on;
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D0%B5%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BC_1951_%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0_%D0%B2_%D0%92%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BC_%D0%9A%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%85%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B5

Just to highlight when the in fighting possibly became the norm.

And some more recent conflicts told by the soldiers involved;
http://artofwar.ru/s/shtinow_s_b/text_0020.shtml
index for English speaking people
http://artofwar.ru/e/english/

But it's safe to say that without the help of a certain Russian, how shall i put this, eh disciple, the Islamic faith are following hot on the heals of others and are committing horrific crimes in the name of religion.

From your original post, comments like this stupefy me.
"If a man only gets secular education he will be heartless"
Pllllllllllleeease.

Cheers for the book link btw.

CiaranMT

What an arsehole:

wrote:

President Obama did not include any reference to God during his weekly address titled, “On Thanksgiving, Grateful for the Men and Women Who Defend Our Country.”
His remarks were void of any religious references although Thanksgiving is a holiday traditionally steeped in giving thanks and praise to God.
The president said his family was “reflecting on how truly lucky we truly are.”
For many Americans, though, Thanksgiving is a time to reflect on how blessed and thankful they are.

Fox 'News'

Dades

CiaranMT wrote: »

What an arsehole:

Who's the arsehole, the Fox guy? I thought the article was fairly tempered, for what I actually think is Very Big Deal (in a positive way).

dmw07

Dades wrote: »

Who's the arsehole, the Fox guy? I thought the article was fairly tempered, for what I actually think is Very Big Deal (in a positive way).

Tongue in cheek sarcasm at Obama for not saying saying god several times during the speech i presume. Possible reaction of a religious person upon hearing the speech perhaps. Either way, i chuckled and thought, he is a bit of a ledge for doing this in fairness. The Fox news reaction pretty much confirms as much. You know it's a big deal when they try to spin something.

It is nice to hear for a change. Hopefully the first of many speeches that speaks to the masses. All the masses and not just a special selected group

Improbable

http://christwire.org/2011/11/urgent-sign-the-white-house-ban-on-the-dangerous-video-game-skyrim/

Not quite so hazardous as some of the other stuff we've seen in here, but it goes to show how stupid people can be. I wouldn't be surprised if something like this actually existed. Thank heavens it's only Christwire.

Sarky

Huh, I do say that uncaring friends who won't meet me for coffee because of Elder Scrolls 5 are Skyrimming...

Galvasean

Not getting to play all the cool new games IS a hazard!

robindch

Islamists get biblical about a young Afghanistani rape victim -- marry the rapist, or face 12 years in prison and apparently, the promise of attempted murder by her family when she's released.

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-11-22/asia/world_asia_afghanistan-rape_1_gulnaz-rapist-jail?_s=PM%3AASIA
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/27/world/asia/afghanistan-rape-victim/index.html
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c04_1322177297

vibe666

Nigeria’s Millionaire Preachers

http://vimeo.com/31656466

looks like Christianity is doing a great trade in Nigeria.

Galvasean

Anyone see that thing on the news this week about that fringe Amish guy who was basically attacking other Amish people, cutting their hair and beards (considered a grave offense to the Amish), he even locked a guy in a chicken coop for several days. I can't find any online sources. Anyone got more info? I only heard about it in passing.

Delirium

Here ya go.

robindch

Lock up your children, Harry Potter is SATANIC!!

Yoga too.

Says a retired vatican insider with a name like one of Sauron's lesser lieutenants.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/vatican-exorcist-father-gabriele-amorth-yoga-harry-potter-satanic-tools-article-1.984048

NY Daily News wrote:

The Vatican’s former chief exorcist says yoga and Harry Potter are tools of the devil.

“Practicing yoga is Satanic, it leads to evil just like reading Harry Potter,” Father Gabriele Amorth said this week. Those seemingly “innocuous” Potter books convince kids to believe in black magic, he said. “In Harry Potter the Devil acts in a crafty and covert manner, under the guise of extraordinary powers, magic spells and curses,” said Amorth.

As for yoga, it leads to Hinduism and “all eastern religions are based on a false belief in reincarnation,” the 86-year-old priest said.

Amorth made the hellraising remarks at a film festival in the Italian city of Umbria, where he was invited to introduce a movie about exorcism called “The Rite,” which stars Anthony Hopkins, the Telegraph of London reported. “Satan is always hidden and what he most wants is for us not to believe in his existence,” he said. “He studies every one of us and our tendencies towards good and evil, and then he offers temptations.” Science can’t explain evil, added Amorth, who claims to have performed 50,000 exorcisms before retiring in 2000. He is both founder and honorary president for life of the International Association of Exorcists.

No surprise, Amorth’s favorite movie is “The Exorcist.”

While the Jesuit’s remarks might strike many as the ravings of a man possessed, Pope Benedict once warned of “subtle seductions” in the Potter books that “dissolve Christianity in the soul.” The Pope has also warned that yoga “can degenerate into a cult of the body.”

robroy1234

So Amorth's response to the clerical sex abuse will be to blame the children themselves if they have read Harry Potter....Little wonder that the Church is struggling and with this deranged fella going on about science and evil - he and the Darth Benedict wants to drag the world back into the medieval times. 50,000 exorcisms, doubt it very much and this fella would be opposed to medical science coming and verifying each case...

CiaranMT

Aren't these people supposed to be educated?

mikhail

CiaranMT wrote: »

Aren't these people supposed to be educated?

They've spent lifetimes in an environment where everything there is to learn is viewed through a lens of a single 'truth'. To Euclid's axioms, they add "the Christian God exists, and this is its Church". It doesn't matter what they study, or how much: they may be educated, but their minds are in chains.

Knasher

Dades wrote: »

Who's the arsehole, the Fox guy? I thought the article was fairly tempered, for what I actually think is Very Big Deal (in a positive way).

I'd disagree, fox news also reported initially that George Bush mentioned god 7 out of 8 times and that Bill Clinton only had 4 out of 8 times. Additionally Obama only left god out of his online address and not his textual one. The only reason this is news is because it's Obama.

Galvasean

robindch wrote: »

Lock up your children, Harry Potter is SATANIC!!

Yoga too.

Says a retired vatican insider with a name like one of Sauron's lesser lieutenants.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/vatican-exorcist-father-gabriele-amorth-yoga-harry-potter-satanic-tools-article-1.984048

And to think, some cynics think the Vatican is out of touch with reality...

Calibos

CiaranMT wrote: »

Aren't these people supposed to be educated?

This is what amazes me. What do Cletus the Born Again wife beating trailer park denzien, the Pope and Tony Blair all have in common?

They've all used the old, 'Stalin and the Nazi's killed more people than religion because they were atheists' line.

I don't expect much from Cletus but to hear supposedly educated men like Blair and the Pope trott out the same old tired arguements and not some high faluten philosophical arguements always amazes me.

CiaranMT

Already posted in AH, Saudi cleric has a brain-fart:

This has angered the conservative religious elite - a key power base for any Saudi ruler.

Now, one of their number - well-known academic Kamal Subhi - has presented a new report to the country's legislative assembly, the Shura.

The aim was to get it to drop plans to reconsider the ban.

The report contains graphic warnings that letting women drive would increase prostitution, pornography, homosexuality and divorce.

A Saudi woman who has campaigned for women drivers told the BBC that the report was completely mad.

She said the head of the Shura had assured women campaigners that he was still open to hearing the case for lifting the ban.

robindch

News just in from Kentucky where a christian church which has voted to banning interracial couples denies accusations of racist:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/01/kentucky-church-bans-interracial-couples

The Raw Story wrote:

A tiny church in rural Kentucky has voted to ban interracial couples from joining its congregation, pitting members against each other in an argument over race. Members at the Gulnare Free Will Baptist Church in Kentucky voted on Sunday on the resolution, which says the church "does not condone interracial marriage". The church member who crafted the resolution, Melvin Thompson, said he is not racist and called the matter an "internal affair".

"I am not racist. I will tell you that. I am not prejudiced against any race of people, have never in my lifetime spoke evil about a race," said Thompson, the church's former pastor who stepped down earlier this year. "That's what this is being portrayed as, but it is not."

Dean Harville, the church's secretary, disagreed - he said the resolution came after his daughter visited the church this summer with her boyfriend from Africa. Stella Harville and Ticha Chikuni, now her fiancé, visited the church in June and Chikuni sang a song for the congregation. The two had visited the church before. Harville said he was counting the church offering after a service in August when he was approached by Thompson, who told him Harville's daughter and her boyfriend were no longer allowed to sing at the church.

"If he's not racist, what is this?" Harville said.

The vote by members last Sunday was nine to six, Harville said. It was taken after the service, which about 35 to 40 people attended. Harville said many people left or declined to vote. The resolution says anyone is welcome to attend services, but interracial couples could not become members or be "used in worship services or other church functions".

Stella Harville, a 24-year-old graduate student at Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology in Indiana, called the vote "hurtful". "I think part of me is still in shock and trying to process what's been going on the past few days," she said. "I really hope they overturn this." The church's pastor, Stacy Stepp, said on Wednesday he was against the resolution. Stepp said the denomination's regional conference will begin working on resolving the issue this weekend.

The National Association of Free Will Baptists in Tennessee has no official position on interracial marriage for its 2,400 churches worldwide, executive secretary Keith Burden said. The denomination believes the Bible is inerrant and local churches have autonomy over decision making.

"It's been a non-issue with us," Burden said, adding that many interracial couples attend Free Will Baptist churches. He said the Pike County church acted on its own. Burden said the association can move to strip the local church of its affiliation with the national denomination if it's not resolved. "Hopefully it is corrected quickly," Burden said.

Turns out that the ban is to "promote greater unity":

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/11/30/kentucky-church-bans-interracial-couples/

amacachi

CiaranMT wrote: »

Already posted in AH, Saudi cleric has a brain-fart:

He has a point, I'd imagine there would be some correlation with some of them.

CiaranMT

amacachi wrote: »

He has a point, I'd imagine there would be some correlation with some of them.

I'd say they're less worried about that and more about keeping women under foot.

amacachi

CiaranMT wrote: »

I'd say they're less worried about that and more about keeping women under foot.

That's kinda what I was getting at...

Galvasean

robindch wrote: »

Turns out that the ban is to "promote greater unity":

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/11/30/kentucky-church-bans-interracial-couples/

muppeteer

Warning graphic video, if you can't handle blood do not watch. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b9f_1323155574

Came across this video of Day_of_Ashura. I had seen some of the self flagellation type rituals but never seen children being cut like this before:(.

Mark Hamill

muppeteer wrote: »

Warning graphic video, if you can't handle blood do not watch. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b9f_1323155574

Came across this video of Day_of_Ashura. I had seen some of the self flagellation type rituals but never seen children being cut like this before:(.

And I bet easychair and libertarians of his ilk think there is nothing at all wrong with what those parents are doing to their kids:rolleyes:

The Mad Hatter

Mark Hamill wrote: »

And I bet easychair and libertarians of his ilk think there is nothing at all wrong with what those parents are doing to their kids:rolleyes:

It might be an idea to post this in the other thread and see.

Mark Hamill

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

It might be an idea to post this in the other thread and see.

Done.

robindch

It's not often you see somebody within the catholic church standing up for gay/lesbian rights. Here's a priest who did and good on him for doing so.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/church-forces-catholic-school-to-accept-rejected-child-of-same-sex-parents/story-fn7x8me2-1226221982437

Herald Sun wrote:

A CATHOLIC school has been ordered to accept the daughter of a same-sex couple after the Church intervened.

Acting Bishop for the Wilcannia/Forbes diocese Kevin Manning said he was appalled by a decision taken by the Sacred Heart Primary School at Broken Hill to refuse a girl a kindergarten place on the basis of her parents' relationship. Bishop Manning told ABC radio the school has now offered the girl a place following his intervention.

He says the refusal came about because of a misunderstanding on the part of the school principal and parish priest as to the church's position on the issue. The refusal came on the same day that Federal Minister Penny Wong and her partner Sophie Allouache celebrated the birth of their daughter Alexandra.

The case had outraged gay and lesbian groups and prompted calls for intervention by the NSW Government to force the Catholic Education Office to allow the girl’s enrolment at the Broken Hill school. But in a demonstration of the challenges which same-sex parents and their children still face, the school’s decision to discriminate was not illegal, as churches are exempt from prosecution for breaches of the Anti-Discrimination Act.

One of the mothers told the ABC the principal had phoned her and said the women's relationship and living situation was the reason the application had been turned down. Trevor Rynne, principal of the Sacred Heart school, yesterday confirmed the girl had been rejected because of her parents' relationship but declined to comment further.

"It's a breach of the Anti-Discrimination Act, there's no question about it. But a religious school is probably exempt from that breach," said Stepan Kerkyasharian, president of the NSW Anti-Discrimination board. NSW Greens MLC John Kaye described the school’s actions as offensive and indefensible. He said the school received 85 per cent of its funding from the State Government and as such should not be able to discriminate.

dmw07

robindch wrote: »

It's not often you see somebody within the catholic church standing up for gay/lesbian rights. Here's a priest who did and good on him for doing so.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/church-forces-catholic-school-to-accept-rejected-child-of-same-sex-parents/story-fn7x8me2-1226221982437

SURE, it's all been a misunderstanding. Sure didn't the school misunderstand us when we said we are against same sex marriages. We are totally in favour of this, we're good people. It's all the schools fault :rolleyes:

Glad to see the parents didn't fall for the 360 decision when the pressure was on.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/state-politics/lesbian-parents-reject-school/story-e6frgczx-1226222311363

Also nice to see how the school is funded 85% by the tax payers of the country, yet it comes under the religious umbrella and is exempt from the same moral & discrimination laws and standards as the rest of us. Good to know that we are all the same eh.


And just to add, all it smacks of is doing the right thing when the media heat was on. Kevin Manning reason for doing this, "I've instructed (the school) to offer her the position," Bishop Manning said. Blaming a child for her parents' "sins" was not the attitude of the Catholic church, he said. He wasn't sticking up for gay/lesbian rights rights. He was wilting in the face of media furore and stuck up for a girl being discriminated because of her parents feelings for one another.

robindch

dmw07 wrote: »

Glad to see the parents didn't fall for the 360 decision when the pressure was on.

Fun to see the bishop's quote:

Kevin Manning wrote:

[...] no way in the world that we can persecute a child because of what their parents did.

Isn't that what "original sin" is all about?

Dades

Kevin Manning wrote:

[...] no way in the world that we can persecute a child because of what their parents did.

How does he know what they did. Was he peeking in their window the night before?

Links234

http://www.time.com/time/quotes/0,26174,2102507,00.html

seamus

Links234 wrote: »

http://www.time.com/time/quotes/0,26174,2102507,00.html

If ever there was one quote which could sum up everything which is wrong with religion, that's it.

Delirium

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U2M6vsMy48

robindch

Archbish of Chicago: "Gay Pride? Sounds like the Ku Klux Klan to me!":

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2079641/Archbishop-Chicago-defends-comparison-Gay-Pride-parade-Ku-Klux-Klan.html

robindch

How it used to be in 1974

Here's Nodlaig's MacCarthy's hard-hitting interview with Mother Teresa.

http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1125717

Interesting to see (6:10) that the religious were worried at the time about declining numbers of religious.

5uspect

Horrific
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16427840

sonicthebadger*

5uspect wrote: »

Horrific
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16427840

The jury heard that witchcraft or sorcery - called kindoki - is practised in Congolese Christian churches.

Mr Altman said that taken out of the church's control "it may take on a feral and indeed evil character, as we suggest it did here".

Wot?

Some days I almost feel like I can't read any more of this kind of thing. But I refuse to stick my fingers in my ears (or indeed eyes). Good to see that the prosecution are refusing to allow a manslaughter plea.

fitz0

5uspect wrote: »

Horrific
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16427840

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35TbGjt-weA

Calibos

While nothing to do with religion and more to do with psychopaths the most shocking thing I read lately was about the Granny who tossed her two year old grand daughter over the 6 storey high guardrail in a shopping centre to get back at her son in law for some percieved slight. Its at times like those where I pine for the chinese system of a bullet to the back of the head and the cost of the bullet billed to the now deceased estate. Madam, you simply do not deserve to live anymore. Bye bye. Bang!!

Galvasean

fitz0 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35TbGjt-weA

Sadly, I end up thinking that most times I peep into this thread. Some* messed up stuff in this world.

*By some I mean loads

Delirium

Benny with the Magic Hat has said that gay marriage is a threat to the future of humanity.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/09/us-pope-gay-idUSTRE8081RM20120109

on the phone, so maybe someone could post text from the article on thread:)

Penn

koth wrote: »

Benny with the Magic Hat has said that gay marriage is a threat to the future of humanity.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/09/us-pope-gay-idUSTRE8081RM20120109

on the phone, so maybe someone could post text from the article on thread:)

No. Oh, alright then...

(Reuters) - Pope Benedict said Monday that gay marriage was one of several threats to the traditional family that undermined "the future of humanity itself."

The pope made some of his strongest comments against gay marriage in a new year address to the diplomatic corps accredited to the Vatican in which he touched on some economic and social issues facing the world today.

He told diplomats from nearly 180 countries that the education of children needed proper "settings" and that "pride of place goes to the family, based on the marriage of a man and a woman."

"This is not a simple social convention, but rather the fundamental cell of every society. Consequently, policies which undermine the family threaten human dignity and the future of humanity itself," he said.

The Vatican and Catholic officials around the world have protested against moves to legalize gay marriage in Europe and other developed parts of the world.

One leading opponent of gay marriage in the United States is New York Archbishop Timothy Dolan, whom the pope will elevate to cardinal next month.

Dolan fought against gay marriage before it became legal in New York state last June, and in September he sent a letter to President Barack Obama criticizing his administration's decision not to support a federal ban on gay marriage.

In that letter Dolan, who holds the powerful post of president of the U.S. Bishops Conference, said such a policy could "precipitate a national conflict between church and state of enormous proportions."

The Roman Catholic Church, which has some 1.3 billion members worldwide, teaches that while homosexual tendencies are not sinful, homosexual acts are, and that children should grow up in a traditional family with a mother and a father.

"The family unit is fundamental for the educational process and for the development both of individuals and states; hence there is a need for policies which promote the family and aid social cohesion and dialogue," Benedict told the diplomats.

Gay marriage is legal in a number of European countries, including Spain and the Netherlands.

Some Churches that have allowed gay marriage, women priests, gay clergy and gay bishops have been losing members to Catholicism, and the Vatican has taken steps to facilitate their conversion.

In 2009, Benedict decreed that Anglicans who leave their Church, many because they feel it has become too liberal, can find a home in Catholicism in a parallel hierarchy that allows them to keep some of their traditions.

The Vatican has since set up "ordinariates," structures similar to dioceses, in Britain and the United States to oversee ex-Anglicans who have converted and be a point of contact for those wishing to do so.