The Hazards of Belief

Hotblack Desiato

VRT offence as it's on a yellow plate, Customs & Excise can seize on the spot and arrest all onboard. Also according to Broadsheet comments, it's not been taxed in the UK since 2007, so probably no MOT either. Insurance...? good luck

RCC yet again demonstrating its disdain for "the laws of man".

Yellow_Fern

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

VRT offence as it's on a yellow plate, Customs & Excise can seize on the spot and arrest all onboard. Also according to Broadsheet comments, it's not been taxed in the UK since 2007, so probably no MOT either. Insurance...? good luck

RCC yet again demonstrating its disdain for "the laws of man".

Quite the generalization.

robindch

Odhinn wrote: »

I look forward to footage of a priest zooming along on some electrically powered scooter while chucking the holy water about the place,

More of a van than a scooter, but behold the priests of Tblisi on Paddy's day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g_h0J02EAI

And here's Patriarch Kirill (he of the famous 'shopped Breguet watch photo) doing a dry run, so to speak, in Moscow the other day:

https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1246077530664308736

Yellow_Fern

robindch wrote: »

More of a van than a scooter, but behold the priests of Tblisi on Paddy's day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g_h0J02EAI

And here's Patriarch Kirill (he of the famous 'shopped Breguet watch photo) doing a dry run, so to speak, in Moscow the other day:

https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1246077530664308736

and we are all grateful for it.

ohnonotgmail

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

and we are all grateful for it.

why, did it work?

Hotblack Desiato

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Quite the generalization.

:rolleyes: Do let us know which laws it's now OK to break.

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

and we are all grateful for it.

Who's "we" and why would they be grateful for what some orthodox priests are getting up to hundreds of miles away?

Bannasidhe

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

and we are all grateful for it.

Quite the generalisation.

Odhinn

They're upping their game
https://www.facebook.com/FRANCE24.English/videos/216116789714159/

Yellow_Fern

Odhinn wrote: »

They're upping their game
https://www.facebook.com/FRANCE24.English/videos/216116789714159/

Seriously tho, Catholics being Catholic. They do this every Corpus Christi so I don't see how it is a hazard of belief?

Odhinn

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Seriously tho, Catholics being Catholic. They do this every Corpus Christi so I don't see how it is a hazard of belief?

..blessings via helicopter every year?

Igotadose

As per the #IMPOTUS, Happy Good Friday to everyone.

https://twitter.com/waltshaub/status/1248699553374711810

B9K9

Now if there was a pope mobile atop this bad boy, would some theologian hazard a guess if even the pope hisself could impart blessings fast enough to make all the water holy enough to have a decent effect? Maybe a theologian with a side qualification in ag science, those guys know all about crop sprayin dosages and flow rates.

https://www.limerickpost.ie/site/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/In-action-the-new-HRET-fire-tender-which-Shannon-Airport-is-set-to-take....jpg

Odhinn

The stupid is real.

The UK's mobile networks have reported a further 20 cases of phone masts being targeted in suspected arson attacks over the Easter weekend.
Trade group Mobile UK said it had been notified of incidents in England, Wales and Scotland.
One of the targeted sites provides mobile connectivity to a hospital in Birmingham.
The figure represents a lower incidence rate than had been the case the previous weekend.
Mobile UK added it had received no reports of staff being targeted over the period.
Attacks on 5G masts pre-date the coronavirus pandemic. But there are concerns a surge in the amount of vandalism has been caused by conspiracy theories, which falsely claim the deployment of 5G networks has caused or helped accelerate the spread of Covid-19.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-52281315

Yellow_Fern

The stupid is very real.

Is the Covid-19 Pandemic Mother Nature’s Response to Human Transgression?
The coronavirus may not, in retrospect, prove to be the tipping point that upends human civilization as we know it, but it should serve as a warning that we will experience ever more such events in the future as the world heats up.

by Michael T. Klare

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2020/04/02/covid-19-pandemic-mother-natures-response-human-transgression

Bannasidhe

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

The stupid is very real.



https://www.commondreams.org/views/2020/04/02/covid-19-pandemic-mother-natures-response-human-transgression

MOD
Rather than link dump perhaps you would be kind enough to provide some points for discussion.

Yellow_Fern

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

The stupid is very real.

Is the Covid-19 Pandemic Mother Nature’s Response to Human Transgression?
The coronavirus may not, in retrospect, prove to be the tipping point that upends human civilization as we know it, but it should serve as a warning that we will experience ever more such events in the future as the world heats up.

by Michael T. Klare

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2020/04/02/covid-19-pandemic-mother-natures-response-human-transgression

It is remarkable how people are arguing the virus is some kind force sent by Gaia to curb human abuse of the planet. It is as mad as medieval monks blaming the Black Death on human sin!

We’re the virus’: The pandemic is bringing out environmentalism’s dark side
By Sierra Garcia on Mar 30, 2020

As of today, this March 17 tweet, which referred to the drop in air and water pollution during the global COVID-19 pandemic, has received nearly 300,000 likes and more than 70,000 retweets — as well as condemnation from some users.

“The problem is not people,” replied one user. “That’s some ecofash **** that leads to genocide.”

https://grist.org/climate/were-the-virus-the-pandemic-is-bringing-out-environmentalisms-dark-side/


The stupid is real.

nozzferrahhtoo

Always easy to call people we disagree with Stupid. I used to do it myself. The problem with that world view however is that many of the people who think that way are anything but stupid. They are often well read, articulate, intelligent, cogent and coherent human beings. There are people much more intelligent and educated then you or I, who believe religious claims about the universe. Newton himself, probably one of the least stupid individuals our species ever produced, believed some absolute tosh.

The thread title is "The Hazards of Belief" and that sums it up well. Their ideas are not stupid at all. They are in fact perfectly valid and intelligent ideas given what they believe about the nature of the universe. Their particular god sending plagues to account for the sins of mankind is right there in the Bible. Why would they not believe that a global pandemic is not more of the same?

The problem is that the idea there is such a god is unsubstantiated guff. But once that meme is installed on their neck-top computer, the ideas that follow on from it are consequently deranged or misguided perhaps but "stupid" not so much.

An analogy that is always useful here is to the parents, often in the US, who let their own children die of medical conditions that are very easy to mediate. All because medical intervention is, to their mind, an affront to their god. This might seem "stupid" and even "evil" to us of course, for good reason, but given what they believe it is a perfectly loving and coherent action. The death of their child is not an act of malice, evil, or hate. It is an act of love. Misguided love, but love none the less.

And the real noodle frying happens when you realise you would likely act the same way too. If you truly believed that mediating temporary physical suffering would jeopardise the well being of the ETERNAL soul of your loved child.... you would probably watch them die too without intervening. Because it would be the RIGHT thing to do.

Stupidity is not the problem here. It is unsubstantiated beliefs. And intelligence is not always an inoculation against infection by memetic nonsense any more than physical health stops you being prone to infection from malicious genetics like the common cold. In fact quite the contrary. Sometimes being physically or mentally healthy can leave you MORE prone to infections.

Bannasidhe

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

It is remarkable how people are arguing the virus is some kind force sent by Gaia to curb human abuse of the planet. It is as mad as medieval monks blaming the Black Death on human sin!

https://grist.org/climate/were-the-virus-the-pandemic-is-bringing-out-environmentalisms-dark-side/


The stupid is real.

The only reference to Gaia is the following:

Originally propounded by the environmental scientist James Lovelock in the 1960s, this notion has often been described as “the Gaia Hypothesis,” after the ancient Greek goddess Gaia, the ancestral mother of all life.

And while the continual use of the term 'Mother Nature' may be a bit cringe (like calling pets 'furbabies'), that doesn't distract from the central question which is to what extent is human abuse of the resources of the planet coupled with the negative impact we, as a species, are having on the climate a factor in pandemics.

I think it's a valid question and human activity can be linked to the spread of virus'. For example the Black Death arrived in Europe due to trade with China. It spread due to Venice being a trading hub.

What part of the hypothesis do you think is 'stupid'?

I assume you are also over in the Christianity forum telling those who believe the virus was sent by God (with no scientific hypothesis to back up that contention) that they are 'stupid'?

Yellow_Fern

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The only reference to Gaia is the following:



And while the continual use of the term 'Mother Nature' may be a bit cringe (like calling pets 'furbabies'), that doesn't distract from the central question which is to what extent is human abuse of the resources of the planet coupled with the negative impact we, as a species, are having on the climate a factor in pandemics.

I think it's a valid question and human activity can be linked to the spread of virus'. For example the Black Death arrived in Europe due to trade with China. It spread due to Venice being a trading hub.

What part of the hypothesis do you think is 'stupid'?

I assume you are also over in the Christianity forum telling those who believe the virus was sent by God (with no scientific hypothesis to back up that contention) that they are 'stupid'?

Pandemics have been on a very very long decline across the world. It is easily falsifiable that pandemics are not increasing. But the real problem with this crazy viewpoint is that belief and I stress belief, that nature is some kind of system that rewards what we as 2020 humans deem as moral pro nature behaviour. We have been a global lineage for over a million years and we have been wiping out species and transforming the planet for probably as long but only now we need to be wiped out by nature. What is this magic like force of mother nature that generates viruses? This is not a science based view point. It is supernatural philosophy. A New Age religion. Evolution does not have agency. Its random. The earth is a lump of rock flying through space. There is no nature force healing things. There is no mechanism to curb human abuse of the planet. These people don't under Darwinian thought at all.

Bannasidhe

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Pandemics have been on a very very long decline across the world. It is easily falsifiable that pandemics are not increasing. But the real problem with this crazy viewpoint is that belief and I stress belief, that nature is some kind of system that rewards what we as 2020 humans deem as moral pro nature behaviour. We have been a global lineage for over a million years and we have been wiping out species and transforming the planet for probably as long but only now we need to be wiped out by nature. What is this magic like force of mother nature that generates viruses? This is not a science based view point. It is supernatural philosophy. A New Age religion. Evolution does not have agency. Its random. The earth is a lump of rock flying through space. There is no nature force healing things. There is no mechanism to curb human abuse of the planet. These people don't under Darwinian thought at all.

Much wordy response but sadly short of facts.

At no point did that article engage in anthropomorphism of the planet so your claim the author 'believes' the 'lump of rock' is acting with deliberate intent is without foundation.

As for this comment "We have been a global lineage for over a million years and we have been wiping out species and transforming the planet for probably as long but only now we need to be wiped out by nature." - entirely without a shred of evidence. You simply cannot claim that the likes of Homo habilis or Homo erectus were 'wiping out species and transforming the planet' when we know very very little about them bar they were hominid. Ironically enough most of "our global lineage" was wiped out - could that have been by nature???

I suspect it's not these people who do not understand Darwin's theories.

Yellow_Fern

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Much wordy response but sadly short of facts.

At no point did that article engage in anthropomorphism of the planet so your claim the author 'believes' the 'lump of rock' is acting with deliberate intent is without foundation.

Well it is a critique! What do you expect? Look at the Tweet it mentions.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

As for this comment "We have been a global lineage for over a million years and we have been wiping out species and transforming the planet for probably as long but only now we need to be wiped out by nature." - entirely without a shred of evidence. You simply cannot claim that the likes of Homo habilis or Homo erectus were 'wiping out species and transforming the planet' when we know very very little about them bar they were hominid. Ironically enough most of "our global lineage" was wiped out - could that have been by nature???

It can be difficult to reconstruct Homo's relationship with megafauna hundreds of thousands of years ago with total precision but there is plenty of evidence it happened. It is not coincidence that Africa is the continent where humans evolved and is also the continent with the fewest mega fauna extinctions.

Smith, F. A., Smith, R. E. E., Lyons, S. K., & Payne, J. L. (2018). Body size downgrading of mammals over the late Quaternary. Science, 360(6386), 310-313.

I dont even need to reach back a million years. Even in Ireland we know humans were wiping out species from tiny insects to the largest mammals present here since the Bronze Age at least. Extinction is an inevitable part of evolution. So yes, the extinction of many Homo lineages was through nature, but it wasnt the Earth 'healing itself'.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I suspect it's not these people who do not understand Darwin's theories.

Nice, a veiled ad hominem. I never attacked you.

Bannasidhe

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Well it is a critique! What do you expect? Look at the Tweet it mentions.


It can be difficult to reconstruct Homo's relationship with megafauna hundreds of thousands of years ago with total precision but there is plenty of evidence it happened. It is not coincidence that Africa is the continent where humans evolved and is also the continent with the fewest mega fauna extinctions.

Smith, F. A., Smith, R. E. E., Lyons, S. K., & Payne, J. L. (2018). Body size downgrading of mammals over the late Quaternary. Science, 360(6386), 310-313.

I dont even need to reach back a million years. Even in Ireland we know humans were wiping out species from tiny insects to the largest mammals present here since the Bronze Age at least. Extinction is an inevitable part of evolution. So yes, the extinction of many Homo lineages was through nature, but it wasnt the Earth 'healing itself'.




Nice, a veiled ad hominem. I never attacked you.

'Mentioning a tweet' is neither here not there. Your 'critique' was based on the premise that the author of the article contends 'Gaia' is deliberately and willfully punishing humans. The article does not do this so your critique is without foundation.

Steady on with the goal post moving, travelling that quickly through millenia to try and find a point in time that suits your claim could result in soft tissue damage. It is not 'difficult' to reconstruct early hominids relationship with megafauna - it is damn near impossible. There is not 'plenty' of evidence.

You are making grandiose claims but supplying not one shred of evidence zooming from the late Pleistocene to the Bronze Age notwithstanding.

We do not know why early hominids went extinct so no-one can claim any particular reason is 'true'.

This article suggests a hypothesis. Which may have merit or be complete hogwash. Rather than making claims about what may or may not have happened to insects/large mammals in Bronze Age Ireland why not deal with what it actually says?

Which is that the activity of humans is causing a chain reaction in the environment which in turn is 'attacking' humans. Yes, the whole romantic 'Mother Earth' stuff is a bit gag inducing, but nonetheless many scientists do believe that humans are the agents of our own misfortunes on a global scale.

Do you disagree?
Is it your contention that the activities of humans has no baring on either the environment, climate crises, or spread of pandemics?

No ad hom, mere an observation. Many people invoke Darwin's name without ever cracking open the pages of his work.

smacl

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

What is this magic like force of mother nature that generates viruses? This is not a science based view point. It is supernatural philosophy. A New Age religion. Evolution does not have agency. Its random. The earth is a lump of rock flying through space. There is no nature force healing things. There is no mechanism to curb human abuse of the planet. These people don't under Darwinian thought at all.

Viruses have been around rather longer than we have. What has changed primarily about humanity which favours viral pandemics is global population size and density. Over the last couple of hundred years our population size has grown tenfold and become concentrated in cities, which makes us an ideal breeding ground for all sorts of infection.

No new age religion, conventional religion or any other irrational belief system required.

Yellow_Fern

smacl wrote: »

Viruses have been around rather longer than we have. What has changed primarily about humanity which favours viral pandemics is global population size and density. Over the last couple of hundred years our population size has grown tenfold and become concentrated in cities, which makes us an ideal breeding ground for all sorts of infection.

No new age religion, conventional religion or any other irrational belief system required.

Very reasonable point of view. I wouldn't have a problem with this because your statement is a million miles from these environmentalists invoking religious language 'we are the virus or mother earth is healing itself' by applying human moral values to a valueless biological process.

Yellow_Fern

Bannasidhe wrote: »

'Mentioning a tweet' is neither here not there. Your 'critique' was based on the premise that the author of the article contends 'Gaia' is deliberately and willfully punishing humans. The article does not do this so your critique is without foundation.

It is not just gag inducing. It is a supernatural concept. Gaia and mother nature are interchangable for the purpose of this discussion.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Steady on with the goal post moving, travelling that quickly through millenia to try and find a point in time that suits your claim could result in soft tissue damage. It is not 'difficult' to reconstruct early hominids relationship with megafauna - it is damn near impossible. There is not 'plenty' of evidence.

Well I think most archaeozoologists would disagree.

If humans are agents of misfortune it is due to poor human adapations to the variable environment. Enviroments dont have the ability to respond to us to reduce our numbers. We do that to our selves. But I would go further that we have remarkably little misfortune.

smacl

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Very reasonable point of view. I wouldn't have a problem with this because your statement is a million miles from these environmentalists invoking religious language 'we are the virus or mother earth is healing itself' by applying human moral values to a valueless biological process.

I think that world population growth is a huge threat to both humanity and the environment, where we need a healthy environment even to hope to sustain current population levels. Hans Rosling's video on world population makes for interesting viewing, where he is of the opinion that the world population will grow to and stabilize at about 11-12 billion which he believes will be sustainable. This stabilization depends to a very large extent on active family planning across all communities, particularly in poorer societies where it will lead to reduced poverty, improved economies and scalable growth. One of the major issues I have with religions such as Christianity is that the message to "Go forth and multiply" is still pushed and considered morally reasonable. What was an entirely reasonable aspiration a few millennia previously when the human population was relatively tiny now points to self destruction.

While you might argue that taking what many environmentalists say literally when referring to Mother Nature or Gaia is guff, I think you're misunderstanding what is intended as analogy and underlying message is largely reasonable.

Hotblack Desiato

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

It is remarkable how people are arguing the virus is some kind force sent by Gaia to curb human abuse of the planet.

Not remarkable at all. It's tame stuff indeed compared to what mainstream religions believe in, never mind the fruit loops who say that any catastrophe which happens is god's judgement on humanity because of abortion/gays/whatever you're having yourself.

Hotblack Desiato

And in other news...

Nigerian priest poised to leave German parish after death threats

A Nigerian priest has been forced to give up his parish in Germany after a series of racist acts, including death threats.

Fr Patrick Asomugha will step down from his parish in Queidersbach in the west of the country on Monday after "massive" intimidation against him, said Bishop Andreas Sturm.

The hostility towards Asomugha began in mid-2019.

The presbytery in Queidersbach, a town of some 3,000 inhabitants, suffered significant property damage after two break-ins, and the tyres on the priest's car were slashed.

In March, unknown persons placed a death threat on the door of his garage.

"Under these circumstances, I can no longer fulfil my duties as a priest in Queidersbach," said Fr Asomugha, who had been head of the parish of Saint Francis of Assisi since August 2017.

The source of the threats has not been identified, leaving the church with little option.

"It would be irresponsible to continue exposing Father Asomugha to the threat," said the diocese.

The local Catholic youth organisation expressed their "deep shame" and said it was "horrified to see that because of their skin colour, origin or other characteristics, people can no longer exercise their professional activity or have to leave their employment".

The priest will remain within the diocese of Speyer but will transfer to another mission.

In 2016, a German-Congolese Catholic priest left his Bavarian parish to protest against the racist attacks against him, also punctuated by death threats, due to his support for the reception of foreign refugees.

Give it a few years and it's inevitable we will see more African priests here, I hope they will get a better reception.

B9K9

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The only reference to Gaia is the following:



And while the continual use of the term 'Mother Nature' may be a bit cringe (like calling pets 'furbabies'), that doesn't distract from the central question which is to what extent is human abuse of the resources of the planet coupled with the negative impact we, as a species, are having on the climate a factor in pandemics.

I think it's a valid question and human activity can be linked to the spread of virus'. For example the Black Death arrived in Europe due to trade with China. It spread due to Venice being a trading hub.

What part of the hypothesis do you think is 'stupid'?

I assume you are also over in the Christianity forum telling those who believe the virus was sent by God (with no scientific hypothesis to back up that contention) that they are 'stupid'?

Is it not the case that the more people alive, the more opportunities for a rare genetic event, including cross-species ones?

And as well, the faster we move around the planet, the bigger the effect of what might in other centuries be a relatively inconsequential outbreak?

Adding these factors is like adding cat's mullakey and dog's malodion..

Yellow_Fern

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Not remarkable at all. It's tame stuff indeed compared to what mainstream religions believe in, never mind the fruit loops who say that any catastrophe which happens is god's judgement on humanity because of abortion/gays/whatever you're having yourself.

No not tame stuff compared with.. it is literally the same line of thought.