The Hazards of Belief

recedite

There's a whole thread about the "Victory" church in Firhouse.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055660864

jank

joseph brand wrote: »

While I agree with what you're saying (as always), I just feel like it's a step backwards.

Backwards from what? Isn't this exactly what atheists want? Privately funded religion?

ShooterSF

jank wrote: »

Backwards from what? Isn't this exactly what atheists want? Privately funded religion?

Ill assume backwards from an a-la-carte apathetic approach to belief lately, one slowly moving towards a general lessening in belief which is what we really "want" because after all everyone wants what they think is best for society. Doesn't mean we think it's possible or that we can't aim for a happy compromise of privately funded religion where people are free to do as they please, though I still want to see their tax returns!

joseph brand

ShooterSF wrote: »

Ill assume backwards from an a-la-carte apathetic approach to belief lately, one slowly moving towards a general lessening in belief which is what we really "want" because after all everyone wants what they think is best for society. Doesn't mean we think it's possible or that we can't aim for a happy compromise of privately funded religion where people are free to do as they please, though I still want to see their tax returns!

This.

I've heard and read that there are less people going to mass these days. So, one would imagine there's no need for new churches. As a modern society we are, moving away from superstition and we are now thinking for ourselves. (Hopefully)

Gbear

Good news from Germany (dunno if it's been posted already somewhere):


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18807040

Muslim and Jewish groups denounce German circumcision ruling
European Jewish and Muslim groups have joined forces to defend circumcision for young boys on religious grounds after a German regional court ruled it amounted to bodily harm.

A joint statement says the practice is fundamental to their faiths and calls for it to be awarded legal protection.

The ruling by the Cologne court - also criticised by the Israeli parliament - does not apply to the whole of Germany.

jank

joseph brand wrote: »

This.

I've heard and read that there are less people going to mass these days. So, one would imagine there's no need for new churches. As a modern society we are, moving away from superstition and we are now thinking for ourselves. (Hopefully)

Oh, so naive of you. Spend some time living in another country and you will see that there will be all sorts of various religious denominations even in outwardly very secular countries. Ireland is going through a transformation at the moment, gone is the blanket one religion for all in the Roman Catholic Church now enter a greater mix where people actually want to explore and see what other religious denominations are out there. It will always be that way.

After all isn't that thinking for yourself or thinking what you would like them to think? Thats a liberal society for you, got to take the rough with the smooth.

Ill assume backwards from an a-la-carte apathetic approach to belief lately, one slowly moving towards a general lessening in belief which is what we really "want" because after all everyone wants what they think is best for society. Doesn't mean we think it's possible or that we can't aim for a happy compromise of privately funded religion where people are free to do as they please, though I still want to see their tax returns

The jist I get from that is that some people will never be happy. Gone are the days of the RCC being quite a strong force in Ireland, enter new immigrants and diversity where shock horror new small/large? religious churchs appear. People are so irrational

What would your compromise be of privately funded religion in Ireland? Shut them up?

Although not sure why you would want to see their tax return as a private organisation. Can I have a peep of your tax return?

ShooterSF

jank wrote: »

The jist I get from that is that some people will never be happy. Gone are the days of the RCC being quite a strong force in Ireland, enter new immigrants and diversity where shock horror new small/large? religious churchs appear. People are so irrational

What would your compromise be of privately funded religion in Ireland? Shut them up?

Although not sure why you would want to see their tax return as a private organisation. Can I have a peep of your tax return?

Oh I won't be happy if I put my real hopes of happiness in a rational and critical thinking society but I know it for the pipe dream it is and what do you mean shut them up?

And I meant that I'd like to know if they are exempt from taxes like other cults in this country and if you genuinely are interested in my tax returns ill pm them to you or anyone that's interested. I have no problems with it. The rush for privacy these days is something else I don't really get but thats off topic...

jank

ShooterSF wrote: »

Oh I won't be happy if I put my real hopes of happiness in a rational and critical thinking society but I know it for the pipe dream it is and what do you mean shut them up?

You mentioned a compromise?

ShooterSF wrote: »

And I meant that I'd like to know if they are exempt from taxes like other cults in this country and if you genuinely are interested in my tax returns ill pm them to you or anyone that's interested. I have no problems with it. The rush for privacy these days is something else I don't really get but thats off topic...

Well, the law in the country is that religious organisations exempt from taxes so presumably yes. I would prefer if it were scrapped and NFP organisations didnt have to pay taxes.

Sure PM me your tax return so.

Knasher

jank wrote: »

Although not sure why you would want to see their tax return as a private organisation. Can I have a peep of your tax return?

Honestly I think any tax exempt organization should have to submit some sort of public accounts of where their money is going. Most charities do this anyway because a lot of people, myself included, won't donate to any organization which doesn't provide some accounting on how much funds are actually allocated to their stated cause. I think that is pretty reasonable to be honest.

As an aside if I were a criminal I honestly couldn't think of a better way of laundering funds. No accountability, most churches operate as complete black boxes, plus any investigation risks stirring up the hornets nest of church state separation and persecution of religion. I'm not claiming it happens, this could just be a product of my own imagination, it just seems pretty plausible to me.

recedite

Whats this "privately funded religion" business? I suspect you mean locally controlled religion, but these have always been around, albeit as minorities.

Gbear

I'm utterly astonished at Merkel's response to the court ruling on circumcision mentioned above:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18793842

Chancellor Angela Merkel's spokesman said it was a case of protecting religious freedom.

Steffen Seibert said: "Circumcision carried out in a responsible manner must be possible without punishment."

I'm not sure what annoys me more - that this is down to cowardice and cynical vote buying, or that she's just incredibly ignorant.


Also, these comments from some Rabbi are absolutely disgusting.

"perhaps the most serious attack on Jewish life in Europe since the Holocaust".

He thinks because he's in Germany he can get away with this sort of bull**** argument, as if the Holocaust automatically gives all jews a free pass on everything forever more.

In another article on the beeb:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18833145

"We consider this to be an affront [to] our basic religious and human rights," it said.

My head nearly exploded from the hypocrisy.

****ing furious.:mad:

Hotblack Desiato

I agree 100%. Children must be protected against permanent physical mutilation by their parents, whether on fcukwitted religious grounds or on any other.

Shame on you Angela Merkel.

Gbear

Gbear wrote: »

He thinks because he's in Germany he can get away with this sort of bull**** argument, as if the Holocaust automatically gives all jews a free pass on everything forever more.

When a Jew or someone else uses the holocaust as an argument for something completely unrelated and on nothing like the same scale I always hope the person next to them will hit them a thump.
Then again maybe he was pointing out how well the Jews have had it in Germany for the last 60 years. :pac:

Wiggles88

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/creationists-to-open-free-school-7942395.html

Creationism making its way into UK schools. I always thought creationists were quarantined off in the crazy parts of the US, sadly they seem to be spreading

PopePalpatine

Someone explain to me whether there would be any demand in Louisiana for an Islamic school.

Pushtrak

Bishop’s warning on secularising schools

A Catholic bishop has warned Education Minister Ruairi Quinn not to rush ahead with plans to put primary schools currently managed by the Church under secular control.

Bishop Leo O’Reilly of Kilmore, a diocese which straddles the border with Northern Ireland, said it would be "extremely unwise" for Mr Quinn to try and bulldoze the changeover, or ram it through quickly.

Bishop O’Reilly, a former chairman of the Bishops’ Council on educational matters, said in a weekend interview that the plan to hand over 50 primary schools posed the question whether diversity and choice was being offered for all, except those practising as Catholics.

"It’s a position that essentially suggests freedom of religion is freedom from religion — that’s a crucial distinction and worrying in itself.

"They apparently want no prayers in schools, and that anyone without faith, to not be impinged upon, in any way, by any religious content, as if it were some kind of an infection that could be damaging to their health."

Bishop O’Reilly said he hoped Mr Quinn did not get blindsided into implementation of the proposals.

"If he does, there could be trouble," he warned, adding "to try and bulldoze or ram it through would be incredibly unwise".

Potential patrons for the 50 schools to be handed over by Catholic bishops have been asked to make their interest known to the Department of Education.

Mr Quinn last month announced a scheme to allow for the divesting of patronage of Catholic schools in areas where there is little or no other choice of primary education and where it is unlikely that population growth will result in new schools being opened.

The department has now asked for expressions of interest from bodies that might wish to become school patrons in the 44 areas identified last month.

Once the list of interested parties is finalised, the department will carry out surveys to determine if there is sufficient demand for a change of patronage to one or more local schools and, if so, the preference of parents locally for a new patron.

There is likely to be interest from multidenominational body Educate Together in becoming patron in most of the areas, but local vocational education committees (VECs) are also expected to offer their multidenominational model of community national school. There is also expected to be interest in many areas from An Foras Pátrúnachta, already patron to numerous all-Irish schools with different ethos systems.

The 44 areas selected by the Department of Education for inclusion in the first divesting exercises include 12 in the Catholic archdiocese of Dublin, four in Waterford & Lismore (Carrick -on-Suir, Clonmel, Dungarvan, and Tramore), and three each in Cork and Ross (Bandon, Carrigaline, and Passage West) and Cloyne (Cobh, Fermoy, and Youghal). In some places, two schools might need to be handed over, as more than a dozen areas have five or more schools but none are multidenominational.

The first surveys will be conducted in five of the areas in October.

"posed the question whether diversity and choice was being offered for all,"

some nerve. some serious fcuking nerve.

Genghiz Cohen

"as if [faith] were some kind of an infection that could be damaging to their health"
:pac:

Penn

"They apparently want no prayers in schools, and that anyone without faith, to not be impinged upon, in any way, by any religious content, as if it were some kind of an infection that could be damaging to their health."

He was doing so well until he became Bishop Drama Llama with the infection part.

Quote re-enacted for un-dramatic purposes:
"They apparently want no prayers in schools, and that anyone without faith, to not be impinged upon, in any way, by any religious content, as if it were not the responsibility of the school to teach faith."

Wiggles88

The Bible gives better science for Giant's Causeway

Without reference to the Bible at all, it is self-evident that: (1) God made the universe and everything in it

:mad:

magicbastarder

he does have a point - evolutionary theory is alarmingly silent on an explanation for the creation of the giant's causeway.

Genghiz Cohen

magicbastarder wrote: »

he does have a point - evolutionary theory is alarmingly silent on an explanation for the creation of the giant's causeway.

And Carbon Dating shows the rocks are less than 10,000 years old.

FouxDaFaFa

Thought this was interesting. Boy Scouts of America upholds its vow to ban homosexuals, atheists and agnostics from being leaders or members of the organisation.

It's incredible that they're one of the largest organisations of this kind in the States when they are so openly hostile to anyone who is gay or not religious. As far as I know, they are a private organisation so can legally discriminate like this.

speaking

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

And Carbon Dating shows the rocks are less than 10,000 years old.

I did not know you could you could do carbon dating on rocks.

magicbastarder

you can, as long as they've grown in the last 14,000 years.

The Mad Hatter

speaking wrote: »

I did not know you could you could do carbon dating on rocks.

Delirium

Schools deny girls cervical cancer jabs on religious grounds

Schoolgirls are being denied a potentially life-saving cervical cancer jab at their schools on religious grounds.

Some schools in England have opted out of the HPV vaccination programme because their pupils follow strict Christian principles and do not have sex outside marriage. The jab guards against two strains of the human papillomavirus (HPV) virus – 16 and 18 – which cause 70% of cases of cervical cancer. It is offered routinely to girls aged 12 to 13.

But an investigation by GP magazine found 24 schools in 83 of England's 152 primary care trust (PCT) areas were opting out of the vaccination programme, many of them on religious grounds.

The magazine found the majority of schools opting out did not tell their local GPs, where the girls could be offered the vaccine.

Wiggles88

koth wrote: »

Schools deny girls cervical cancer jabs on religious grounds

And the religious wonder why people get annoyed about religious control of schools. sigh

Sarky

From that it reads like those schools believe that somehow abstinence prevents cervical cancer. But that would be stupid.

robindch

koth wrote: »

Schools deny girls cervical cancer jabs on religious grounds

That's been going on in the US for several years. Don't have any figures to hand, but I'd say around half are objecting on religious ground ("god says don't get the jab") and the other half are objecting since, if protection against HPV is conferred, they believe that girls will be more likely to have sex -- a common religious trope which sees religious people lie about condoms, causing teens to avoid using them, thereby causing increased STD rates. My elderly female relative, of whom forum regulars will have heard much anon, said two years back that if she was a young mum again, she wouldn't allow her own daughters to be vaccinated since catching a fatal disease might "teach them a lesson".

Relatedly, chemist shops in the USA which are owned/managed by religious people have been trying for some years to stop selling condoms, contraceptives, morning-after pills and the like. For much the same reasons. Not sure where that particular fight is at the moment.

Hotblack Desiato

robindch wrote: »

Relatedly, chemist shops in the USA which are owned/managed by religious people have been trying for some years to stop selling condoms, contraceptives, morning-after pills and the like. For much the same reasons. Not sure where that particular fight is at the moment.

Probably still some here. There were quite a few in Dublin less than 20 years ago, a chemist in Rathmines (of all places) turned my gf away when she went in with her pill prescription. Another well known chemist on the SCR didn't sell johnnies :rolleyes: but you could get them semi-illegally in the corner shop a few mins up the road

joseph brand

robindch wrote: »

That's been going on in the US for several years. Don't have any figures to hand, but I'd say around half are objecting on religious ground ("god says don't get the jab") and the other half are objecting since, if protection against HPV is conferred, they believe that girls will be more likely to have sex -- a common religious trope which sees religious people lie about condoms, causing teens to avoid using them, thereby causing increased STD rates. My elderly female relative, of whom forum regulars will have heard much anon, said two years back that if she was a young mum again, she wouldn't allow her own daughters to be vaccinated since catching a fatal disease might "teach them a lesson".

Relatedly, chemist shops in the USA which are owned/managed by religious people have been trying for some years to stop selling condoms, contraceptives, morning-after pills and the like. For much the same reasons. Not sure where that particular fight is at the moment.

I think you could start a comic strip based on this woman. She's a real character. Much like the father in 'Freddie got Fingered'. I love that movie.

Sarky

Sarky wrote: »

From that it reads like those schools believe that somehow abstinence prevents cervical cancer. But that would be stupid.

Would it not work as well as the vaccine?

mikhail

Deleted User wrote: »

Would it not work as well as the vaccine?

No, as there are non-sexual ways of contracting HPV. Which is why these people are dangerous morons.

magicbastarder

national trust to review decision on creationist display at the giant's causeway:
http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2012/07/national-trust-to-review-creationist-friendly-exhibit-at-giants-causeway

Dades

magicbastarder wrote: »

national trust to review decision on creationist display at the giant's causeway:
http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2012/07/national-trust-to-review-creationist-friendly-exhibit-at-giants-causeway

That's the best news I've heard all day.

Maybe someone in there stumbled upon our own thread amongst others when assessing the public response.

recedite

ninja900 wrote: »

Probably still some here. There were quite a few in Dublin less than 20 years ago...........

Yes, around 1995 I think the last time I attempted to purchase some from "a chemist shop" a dark and dingy place near the Merrion St. gate of TCD, the old fart behind the counter started up his lecture on morality.... Around that time Tesco and Boots arrived, supermarkets started stocking them, so no need to ever go back to such places. He's probably still there, moaning away to anyone willing to listen.

robindch

recedite wrote: »

[...] the old fart behind the counter started up his lecture on morality [...]

Reminds me of the Skibbereen supermarket I dropped into on Good Friday this year, and getting a morality lecture from the elderly lady at the till when I forgetfully asked her why the drinks section was still closed off at lunchtime.

In return, she got a lecture on secularism

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

Yes, around 1995 I think the last time I attempted to purchase some from "a chemist shop" a dark and dingy place near the Merrion St. gate of TCD, the old fart behind the counter started up his lecture on morality...

Sweny's? Maybe you should've asked for a bar of lemon soap...

Hotblack Desiato

robindch wrote: »

In return, she got a lecture on secularism

OK but it's not her fault the laws are stupid.

Very disappointing to hear the usual post-Swedish House Mafia* stuff about alcohol being too cheap, too widely available, etc. etc. and the 'solution' is of course to ignore the lawbreakers and punish the responsible. As usual.

Never mind that in many other European countries, drink is both a lot cheaper and a lot more widely available... and even in Scandinavian countries where it's expensive and not easy to get, they still have heavy alcohol consumption. Hmmm....



* I thought IKEA were the Swedish house mafia :pac:

Hotblack Desiato

I'm too young to remember :pac: but apparently if you wanted illicit contraception in the 70s and 80s, Hayes Cunningham Robinson chemists were the place to go, because they were 'Protestant'.

I remember, at about 7 or 8 years old, being in a bus with my mother and going past what must have been the Well Woman Centre, seeing a large sign saying 'Contraceptives Unlimited', and asking my mam what that meant ...because all the other shops and businesses said Limited!!!

joseph brand

I was in the christianity forum and there was an old thread unearthed about the catholic rag 'Alive'.

So, I went onto their site.

Clash looming

The Catholic Church in Ireland has taken a radical stand against the view that she must “move with the times”, that she must adapt to the modern world. She has decided, rather, that she will be true to her own identity.
By following the path of “communion with Christ and with one another”, as the Eucharistic Congress put it, the Church has firmly set herself against today’s liberalism.
She has rejected the individualism and the distorted notion of freedom that are tearing today’s society apart.
This is nothing less than revolutionary, and will inevitably lead to deep clashes between the Church and the powers that be.
For the modern world, the individual is primary. Individuals may come together to advance their own interests, but they carry an underlying resentment against society and its limits on their “freedom” and their “rights”.
For the Catholic Church, on the other hand, society comes first. We are born into a society, the family, and we first come to know ourselves as members of the family, and then of the wider community.
From these two views come radically different notions of love, justice, happiness, freedom, independence.
They lead, in turn, to radically different views about human dignity, education, law, politics, economics, the role of the media, and so on.
We are seriously mistaken, for example, if we think that the major issues in Irish education are about control of schools. Something far deeper is at stake.
Having reaffirmed her identity as ‘communion in the body of Christ’, the Church must now vigorously and confidently proclaim her vision on each issue, to her own members first, and then to the wider society.

http://www.alive.ie/comment.html

Freedom and rights. Who needs em eh?

I wouldn't mind if one of these was dropped in my letterbox, just for curiosity. Their website isn't great.

Hotblack Desiato

You can have the copy we regularly get :mad: thinking of putting a sticker on the front door

NO JUNK MAIL

P.S. WE LOVE SATAN

Hotblack Desiato

Wow, my dim and distant memory was right...

http://dublinopinion.com/2010/09/29/banshee-journal-of-irish-women-united-looking-left-dctv/

In the summer of 1976, Irish Women United joined forces with other groups to launch a national campaign for legislation on contraception: the Contraception Action Programme (CAP).

In 1978 CAP opened up a shop, Contraceptives Unlimited.

The success of the CAP campaign led to the Family Planning Act of 1978. Sponsored by Charles J. Haughey. This led to contraceptives available on prescription for ‘bona fide’ family planning purposes. Haughey’s now infamous line: ‘An Irish solution to an Irish problem.’

Has Irish politics really changed at all since though... wait until demand for social change becomes irresistible, then do the absolute minimum possible...

robindch

ninja900 wrote: »

OK but it's not her fault the laws are stupid.

Agreed, but when she defended them and delivered her morality lecture, she stepped over the line and got a lecture in reply -- at least I tried to make mine funny; whereas she sounded like she was recycling something Witters had scribbled down on an off-day.

I didn't get my booze of course, so I suppose she won.

Hotblack Desiato

You militant secularist you :pac:

robindch

^^^

joseph brand

Why did I kill the boy? It was god's plan! (Zimmerman)

god does indeed work in mysterious ways.

When I say 'god' I mean crazy nut jobs.
When I say 'mysterious' I mean retarded and criminal.

Galvasean

robindch wrote: »

My elderly female relative, of whom forum regulars will have heard much anon, said two years back that if she was a young mum again, she wouldn't allow her own daughters to be vaccinated since catching a fatal disease might "teach them a lesson".

Not much point learning a lesson when you're dead (and already condemned to eternity in hell).

Delirium

Zimmerman: Shooting 'God's plan'

It was "God's plan" that brought together George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin in a fatal confrontation in February, Zimmerman told Fox News host Sean Hannity Wednesday in his first television interview.

Zimmerman, 28, has been charged with second-degree murder for shooting Martin in what he says was self-defense. Martin was unarmed when he was killed while walking back to his father's girlfriend's house in a gated residential area of Sanford, Florida. Zimmerman has pleaded not guilty and has been free on $1 million bail since early July.

Video clip on the linked page.

Nice to know that God wanted him to shoot an unarmed teenager :rolleyes: