The Hazards of Belief

Nodin

The Vatican is digging in after gay marriage initiatives scored big wins this week in the US and Europe.

It vows to never stop insisting that marriage can only be between a man and a woman.
In a front-page article in Saturday's Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano, the Holy See sought to frame itself as the lone voice of courage in opposing initiatives to give same-sex couples legal recognition.

In a separate Vatican Radio editorial, the pope's spokesman asked sarcastically why gay marriage proponents do not now push for legal recognition for polygamous couples as well.
According to Catholic teaching, it holds that homosexuals should be respected and treated with dignity but that homosexual acts are "intrinsically disordered."
The Vatican also opposes same-sex marriage, insisting on the sanctity of marriage between a man and woman as the foundation for society.

The Vatican's anti-gay marriage media blitz came after three US states approved same-sex marriage by popular vote in the election that returned Barack Obama to the US presidency.

Spain has upheld its gay marriage law and France has pushed ahead with legislation that could see gay marriage legalised early next year.
L'Osservatore Romano wrote that Catholics were putting up a valiant fight to uphold church teaching in the face of "politically correct ideologies invading every culture of the world" that are backed by institutions like the United Nations, which last year passed a non-binding resolution condemning anti-gay discrimination.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1110/vatican-vows-to-fight-gay-marriage.html

...this is good, as it means when they see another country ignore them and carry on regardless, they'll realise how irrelevant they're becoming.

Overall for now they're good but anything at that level exists purely to perpetuate its own existence so I don't like it. :P

dmw07

Nodin wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1110/vatican-vows-to-fight-gay-marriage.html

...this is good, as it means when they see another country ignore them and carry on regardless, they'll realise how irrelevant they're becoming.

Or it could force their hand into more sinister acts. They are still a very powerful cancer and if history of the church proceding teach us anything is that they manipulate their mob rule into following anything they tell them to do. Regardless of how immoral or wrong they may be.

I expect lots of sound bites from christian politicians in the coming months denouncing same-sex marriage as an abomination.

The church will not resist in their ideology in my opinion, for what that's worth!

MrPudding

dmw07 wrote: »

Or it could force their hand into more sinister acts. They are still a very powerful cancer and if history of the church proceding teach us anything is that they manipulate their mob rule into following anything they tell them to do. Regardless of how immoral or wrong they may be.

I expect lots of sound bites from christian politicians in the coming months denouncing same-sex marriage as an abomination.

The church will not resist in their ideology in my opinion, for what that's worth!

This is true, however, they will at some point realise that a significant proportion of the people voting gay marriage in are their own flock.

They are so desperately out of tune with there own followers, and so unused to being disobeyed that they are speeding up their own demise. Which is not a bad thing.

MrP

Turtwig

dmw07 wrote: »

Or it could force their hand into more sinister acts. They are still a very powerful cancer and if history of the church proceding teach us anything is that they manipulate their mob rule into following anything they tell them to do. Regardless of how immoral or wrong they may be.

I expect lots of sound bites from christian politicians in the coming months denouncing same-sex marriage as an abomination.

The church will not resist in their ideology in my opinion, for what that's worth!

They most probably will resolve to more sinister acts but the beauty of it is how ineffective those acts will probably be. Thanks to print and the internet they no longer have control over the flow of information and are thus largely an impotent force in the modern world.
Thank f*ck!

robindch

Jernal wrote: »

Thanks to print and the internet they no longer have control over the flow of information [...]

That's one of the reasons why many authoritarian religions like catholicism try to keep their religious texts in a dead language - it makes it much easier to enforce their authority. In the Vatican's case, the church controlled the majority of schools, so it controlled the majority of those who learned the dead language, so it controlled most of the people who had access to the absolute knowledge described therein. That's not so much the case any more, although the Vatican does still insist that its priesthood is the only channel through which catholics can communicate accurately with their deity.

Less authoritarian religions like protestantism didn't need to assert that central control so strongly, so they were ok with translations into local languages and viewpoints, hence the thousands of variants that exist today.

In the memetic economy, protestantism traded a more generally-applicable product for lower product fidelity.

It's amusing to note that the increasingly authoritarian Vatican is currently attempting to bring back the Latin mass.

Hotblack Desiato

robindch wrote: »

That's one of the reasons why many authoritarian religions like catholicism try to keep their religious texts in a dead language - it makes it much easier to enforce their authority.

The recent RCC liturgical revisions are 'dead language'. It's English Jim but not as we know it.

Bannasidhe

robindch wrote: »

That's one of the reasons why many authoritarian religions like catholicism try to keep their religious texts in a dead language - it makes it much easier to enforce their authority. In the Vatican's case, the church controlled the majority of schools, so it controlled the majority of those who learned the dead language, so it controlled most of the people who had access to the absolute knowledge described therein. That's not so much the case any more, although the Vatican does still insist that its priesthood is the only channel through which catholics can communicate accurately with their deity.

Less authoritarian religions like protestantism didn't need to assert that central control so strongly, so they were ok with translations into local languages and viewpoints, hence the thousands of variants that exist today.

In the memetic economy, protestantism traded a more generally-applicable product for lower product fidelity.

It's amusing to note that the increasingly authoritarian Vatican is currently attempting to bring back the Latin mass.

I remember having a conversation with my grandmother (a mass every day woman all her life but socially very liberal even by today's standards, never mind past ages - but then she did work for RTE when Gay Byrne brought sex to Ireland) and she said that as far as she was concerned John XXIII didn't go far enough with Vat. II but she wished he hadn't brought in the vernacular Mass.
Naturally, I was surprised by this so I asked her why - it was because she felt the need to participate when she could understand what they were saying where previously she had been able to 'ignore them doing their sacred mysteries thing down there on the alter while I spoke to my God in peace. Now it's all stand up , kneel down, mumbled meaningless automatic response and I haven't time to get my spake in.'

I then told her she wasn't allowed to speak directly to her God, that she was obliged to speak to him only through his anointed intercessors - which came as a shock to her - and that that was one of Luther's problems with Rome.

She considered this for a few minutes then announced ' Well, my father was a Protestant so I suppose I see my God as the same God as his God and nobody will ever prevent me from speaking to my God when I want to no matter how much oil they have had dabbed on their foreheads. Anyroad, technically It's God's mother I am talking to -as I have always said, if a person wants something done there is no point talking to the boy - talk to his mother.'

FouxDaFaFa

A Christian woman was attacked on a train in Egypt. She had her hair cut off by some Muslim women and she was then pushed off the train, resulting in a broken arm.

http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/women-assault-cut-hair-christian-woman-metro

Apparently it's the third incident of this type in recent weeks.

Nodin

THE Pope's envoy to Ireland has ruled out any possibility of the ordination of women.
Papal Nuncio Archbishop Charles Brown said the church's teaching on the subject was clear.
He said the Pope had spoken definitively on the subject in 1994 and the church was "simply unable to do that".
His comments are at odds with the majority of Irish Catholics who believe women should be ordained.
A study commissioned by the Association of Catholic Priests in February revealed that 77pc of Catholics believed women should be ordained.
Former president Mary McAleese has also spoken out in favour of women priests and revealed recently, following the publication of her book, 'Quo Vadis? Collegiality in the Code of Cannon Law', how she was "lambasted" by the former Archbishop of Boston, Cardinal Bernard Francis Law, for her views.
However, Dr Brown insisted it was not a question of choice but was about being "obedient and faithful to the continual tradition of the Catholic faith".

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/there-will-never-be-any-women-priests-insists-papal-nuncio-3291011.html

We can now sleep easy, knowing that no-one without a penis will gain power in the catholic church. Because thats the important thing in life - what genitalia you were born with.

FouxDaFaFa

It's incredible really that the RCC has so many female followers propping the church up when it so openly treats them as if they're second-class.

Also about the Mary McAleese thing, it is mind-boggling that that Archbishop got away with effectively scolding a sitting President like a child in front of a group of people. He must be out of his mind.

Nodin

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

It's incredible really that the RCC has so many female followers propping the church up when it so openly treats them as if they're second-class.

Also about the Mary McAleese thing, it is mind-boggling that that Archbishop got away with effectively scolding a sitting President like a child in front of a group of people. He must be out of his mind.

Of course he wasn't. He's an Arch Bishop, wears a funny costume and is the owner of a penis, while yer woman is only an elected representative and a female.

sbsquarepants

Also, i bet he was wearing a very nice party frock as well as that ridiculous pointy hat.
Yep, he's definitely the sane one!

robindch

An Egyptian who looks like the guy from Four Lions calls for the obliteration of Egypt's heritage:

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/11/12/249092.html

Al Arabiya wrote:

An Egyptian jihad leader, with self-professed links to the Taliban, called for the “destruction of the Sphinx and the Giza Pyramids in Egypt,” drawing ties between the Egyptian relics and Buddha statues, local media reported this week.

Murgan Salem al-Gohary, an Islamist leader twice-sentenced under former President Hosni Mubarak for advocating violence, called on Muslims to remove such “idols.” “All Muslims are charged with applying the teachings of Islam to remove such idols, as we did in Afghanistan when we destroyed the Buddha statues,” he said on Saturday during a television interview on an Egyptian private channel, widely watched by Egyptian and Arab audiences.

“God ordered Prophet Mohammed to destroy idols,” he added. “When I was with the Taliban we destroyed the statue of Buddha, something the government failed to do.” His comments came a day after thousands of ultraconservative Islamists gathered in Tahrir Square to call for the strict application of Sharia law in the new constitution.

But in retaliation to Gohary’s remarks, the vice president of Tunisia’s Ennahda party, Sheikh Abdel Fattah Moro, called the live program and told Gohary that famous historic military commander Amr ibn al-Aas did not destroy statues when he conquered Egypt. “So who are you to do it?” he wondered. “The Prophet destroyed the idols because people worshiped them, but the Sphinx and the Pyramids are not worshiped.”

Gohary, 50, is well-known in Egypt for his advocacy of violence, Egypt Independent reported. “He was sentenced twice, one of the two sentences being life imprisonment. He subsequently fled Egypt to Afghanistan, where he was badly injured in the American invasion. In 2007, he traveled from Pakistan to Syria, which then handed him over to Egypt. After Mubarak's fall in early 2011, he was released from prison by a judicial ruling,” the newspaper added.

In recent months, fears have surfaced that the ultra-conservative Salafi political powers may soon wish to debate new guidelines over Egyptian antiquities. Islamists have swept the recent presidential and parliamentary elections in the country’s post-revolutionary stage, with the Muslim Brotherhood and the ultra-conservative Salafi Islamists rising to political power.

“The fundamental Salafis have demanded to cover Pharaonic statues, because they regard them to be idols,” Egyptian author on ancient history Ahmed Osman told Al Arabiya English, explaining that Salafi Muslims follow conservative religious principles which view statues and sculptures as prohibited in Islam. “But so far the government has done nothing to indicate what is the future of Egyptian antiquities,” adds Osman.

Many hope that Egypt’s new President Mohammed Mursi will help usher better preservation of Egypt’s proud cultural heritage. Egyptian officials have recently announced the country will reveal more of its ancient buried treasures. The tomb of Queen Meresankh III, the granddaughter of Khufu, of Great Pyramid fame, is set to be opened to tourists later this year, with the last resting places of five high priests also slated to be put on show.

Officials are also believed to be reopening the underground Serapeum temple at Sakkara, to the south of Cairo.

Aenaes

My mother has always been fond of saying they will allow priests to marry rather than allow females to wear the frock, I think she may be right.

Regarding the Egyptian monuments, that's actual insanity. He's obviously just peed off that they had gods before the Islamic big cheese wisely decided to spread his story.

sbsquarepants

Good luck with blowing up a pyramid by the way!:D

Galvasean

Nodin wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/there-will-never-be-any-women-priests-insists-papal-nuncio-3291011.html

We can now sleep easy, knowing that no-one without a penis will gain power in the catholic church. Because thats the important thing in life - what genitalia you were born with.

Reported as:
"His comments are at odds with the majority of Irish Catholics who believe women should be ordained."

Should it not be a case of:
"The majority of Irish Catholics hold opinions about ordaining women that are at odds with the Catholic Church."

It kind of annoys me how people can be so completely against the Church's teachings/rules but still consider themselves Cathollic. They are so arrogant that they, rather than admit that they probably shouldn't be Catholics, want the Church to change to suit them as if it is some sort of Democracy.

Galvasean

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Good luck with blowing up a pyramid by the way!:D

According to Age of Empires if you hit one with your sword enough it would eventually go on fire, before exploding.

GLaDOS

Galvasean wrote: »

According to Age of Empires if you hit one with your sword enough it would eventually go on fire, before exploding.

They can prevent it by having people hammer slightly to the side of it though

Aenaes

ScienceNerd wrote: »

They can prevent it by having people hammer slightly to the side of it though

Aha! Sending the helpless villagers into the warzones to repair some crappy buildings to be butcherd mercilessly by enemy cavalry. I loved that.
It's after playing games like that and the Sims that really make you thankful there is no god.

Turtwig

Black & White. Nuff said.

Sarky

You mean if there really was a god he'd have trained us all to poop in the granary?

Penn

Man, it's been about a week since I looked at this thread. What's going on?

Sarky wrote: »

You mean if there really was a god he'd have trained us all to poop in the granary?

Ah, business as usual, I see...

Bannasidhe

Sarky wrote: »

You mean if there really was a god he'd have trained us all to poop in the granary?

If there really was a god would he create a 'superior' species in his own image that was stupid enough to poop in the granary?

kylith

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If there really was a god would he create a 'superior' species in his own image that was stupid enough to poop in the granary?

He allegedly created a 'superior' species that often bites the inside of its own mouth, so I'd say yes.

Bannasidhe

kylith wrote: »

He allegedly created a 'superior' species that often bites the inside of its own mouth, so I'd say yes.

Good point.

joseph brand

Polygamist mormon wives. :eek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8iW8kkggSI

Obliq

This should be on this thread too. :mad:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/pregnant-woman-died-after-hospital-delayed-abortion-3293842.html

sbsquarepants

You read these threads and you become accustomed to people dying over religious bullshít - but it's usually in some far off backwards hell hole - Galway is a bit close to home for my liking:mad:
What a disgracefull thing to happen in a so called developed and civilised country.

fitz0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Lynn_Bradford

Thomas Lynn Bradford (died February 6, 1921) of Detroit, Michigan, is most famous for committing suicide in attempt to ascertain the existence of an afterlife and communicate that information to a living accomplice, Ruth Doran. On 6 February 1921, Bradford sealed his apartment in Detroit, Michigan, blew out the pilot on his heater, and turned on the gas, which was successful in killing him.

Some weeks earlier, Bradford had sought a fellow spiritualist in a newspaper ad. Ruth Doran responded. The two agreed "that there was but one way to solve the mystery - two minds properly attuned, one of which must shed its earthly mantle". The New York Times ran a follow-up under the headline "Dead Spiritualist Silent."

I guess he made the wrong call. Wouldn't a suicide send him to the wrong place though?

PopePalpatine

sbsquarepants wrote: »

You read these threads and you become accustomed to people dying over religious bullshít - but it's usually in some far off backwards hell hole - Galway is a bit close to home for my liking:mad:
What a disgracefull thing to happen in a so called developed and civilised country.

What's truly churning my stomach right now is that someone has the gall to advertise a prayer centre here. :mad:

FouxDaFaFa

Hearing about Savita's death and the horribly distressing way in which she died on Vincent Browne last night was a bit of a kick to the stomach. I've spent the last hour emailing all my local TDs and researching the X case, which I shouldn't need to do. It should have been legislated for 20 years ago.

Bannasidhe

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

Hearing about Savita's death and the horribly distressing way in which she died on Vincent Browne last night was a bit of a kick to the stomach. I've spent the last hour emailing all my local TDs and researching the X case, which I shouldn't need to do. It should have been legislated for 20 years ago.

Yes. It should.
Or at the very least Clare Daly's Bill should have been passed last April.

robindch

A creationist preacher from Northern Ireland seems to have been more interested in biology than he was letting on:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1116/breaking34.html

Irish Times wrote:

A former senior DUP aide, prominent creationist and preacher with the Free Presbyterian church has been arrested on suspicion of voyeurism, it has emerged.

David McConaghie (47) was employed as a chief advisor to Upper Bann MP David Simpson but has recently resigned from that post. He was arrested last month as part of an investigation into a hidden recording device, believed to be a camera, which was found in the toilets of Mr Simpson’s constituency office in Portadown, Co Armagh. Mr Simpson contacted police in September when a camera was found inside a toilet cubicle at his constituency office in Thomas Street, Portadown, Co Armagh.

Mr Simpson confirmed to a local newspaper today that he had reported the matter to the PSNI in September. Mr McConaghie was arrested on October 14th, and resigned shortly afterwards. The 49-year-old has been released on bail pending further inquiries, according to the PSNI.

A former Pentecostal preacher with the Elim church and member of the Independent Orange Order, Mr McConaghie has also trained as a preacher with the Free Prebysterian church. He has worked as a press officer for the latter, as well as acting as the media officer for the Caleb Foundation, an evangelical group which lobbies on a range of issues, including opposition to the recently opened Marie Stopes clinic in Belfast and gay marriage.

Mr McConaghie has also been a leading member of the creationist movement in the North, and has met with senior personnel from education bodies in an attempt to have a creationist viewpoint included in the Northern Ireland curriculum. The Caleb Foundation was instrumental in persuading the National Trust to include a “younger Earth” explanation of the origins of the Giant’s Causeway at its flagship, new visitor centre.

Mr Simpson told the Belfast Telegraph that Mr McConaghie “no longer holds any office in the DUP”. Mr McConaghie was not available for comment but his solicitor said he had not been charged with any crime.

Kivaro

From the NY Times no less:

“It will be a symbol of the suffering,” Monsignor Curran said of the statue, “but also of our rise from the ashes. It will be a symbol of what we’ve been through but also of our resurrection. It will be a reminder that for all the property we lost, God never left.”





He must have been busy saving the statue when the 2 Irish-American kids were swept out of their mother's arms during the storm.
(http://gothamist.com/2012/11/16/president_obama_notes_tragic_deaths.php)



I know which one of these 2 pictures depicts "real" compassion.

robindch

Ratzinger says ignore people who are telling you the world is about to end.

http://www.thejournal.ie/pope-benedict-doomsday-warnings-mayans-21-december-679499-Nov2012/

TheJournal wrote:

POPE BENEDICT XVI has called on Christians not to heed doomsday warnings that the world will end on 21 December.

During his weekly Angelus address from the window of his Vatican apartments on Saint Peter’s Square today, Benedict spoke of extracts from the bible which speak of “the sun and moon going out, the stars falling from the sky.”

Several films and documentaries have promoted the idea that the ancient Mayan calendar predicts that doomsday is next month, on 21 December, 2012. But Benedict said that Jesus “does not describe the end of the world, and when he uses apocalyptic images, he is not acting the prophet.

“On the contrary, he wants to stop his disciples of every epoch from being curious over dates, forecasts, and wants to give them the key to… the right road to walk today and tomorrow to enter into the eternal life,” he added.


As many as 90,000 people are expected to attend a massive event in Guatemala City on December 21, just in case the world actually does end, while tour groups are promoting doomsday-themed getaways.

pauldla

Last semester my students were almost getting freaked about 2012. To the point where they were adding references to it in essays about economic development, even. I happened to mention it to them the other day, and all I got was a big 'meh' from them. I guess apocalypses ain't what they used to be.

Banbh

Full details of the end of the world are available from the Guatamala City Tourist Office.

robindch

No <cough> ghey sex please, we're <cough> Greek <cough>:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1116/blasphemy-charges-filed-over-greek-gay-jesus-play.html

RTE wrote:

Actors and the producer and director of an American play in Greece that depicted Jesus Christ and his apostles as gay have been charged with blasphemy.

A production of Corpus Christi in Athens was cancelled this month after weeks of almost daily protests outside the theatre by priests and right-wing groups, including deputies from the ultra-nationalist Golden Dawn party. Charges of "insulting religion" and "malicious blasphemy" have been filed after Bishop Seraphim of Piraeus lodged a lawsuit against those involved in the play.

The play's director said he was stunned that prosecutors had chosen to go after him rather than pursue tax evaders and others blamed for driving Greece to near-bankruptcy. "What I see is that there are people who have robbed the country blind who are not in jail and the prosecutor turns against art," Albanian-born Laertis Vasiliou said. If found guilty, Vasiliou and the other defendants could face several months in prison. A trial date has not been set yet.

The charges drew criticism from rights groups and politicians, with the co-ruling Democratic Left party describing the country's blasphemy laws as "anachronistic" and calling for them to be revised. Blasphemy charges are rarely pressed in Greece, but in September a 27-year-old man was arrested on the same charge for creating a Facebook page mocking a deceased Orthodox monk prompting Greeks to take to social networking sites in protest.

Last month, Greek state television came under fire from the main opposition party and critics for editing a gay kiss out of the primetime premiere of British period drama "Downton Abbey". The incidents have fuelled popular disenchantment with a political class many Greeks say has failed to go after big names of tax evasion and crack down on widespread corruption. In the latest case that has provoked outrage, a prominent Greek journalist who was acquited of breaking privacy data will face retrial.

Dozens of demonstrators, including some from Golden Dawn, blocked the entrance of the theatre and clashed with police on the night of the play's premiere last month. Bearded black-robed priests holding crosses were shown on television tearing up posters promoting the play. A powerful institution, the Orthodox Church plays an influential role in Greek society. The prosecutor's decision to press charges against Corpus Christi was condemned by anti-fascism groups who said political instability in the country was pushing the conservative-led coalition to turn to the far right for support.


"It's the bullies and the neo-Nazis clashing outside the theatre who should be put on the stand and not the actors," said Petros Constantinou, head of the United Against Racism and Fascist Violence Movement. Describing the decision as a "glorification of the Dark Ages", he said: "The government is panicking and it's looking to the far-right for crutches." Golden Dawn, which entered parliament this year for the first time, has been increasingly flexing its muscle and polls show its hard line against immigrants and corrupt politicians is boosting its popularity.

Still, one pollster said the case was more reflective of Greek attitudes on social issues rather than politics. "It more likely has to do with how deeply conservative Greek society is," said Thomas Gerakis, head of polling agency Marc.

GLaDOS

robindch wrote: »

But Benedict said that Jesus “does not describe the end of the world, and when he uses apocalyptic images, he is not acting the prophet.

So... can he like, switch the whole "Son of God" thing on and off?

shizz

robindch wrote: »

No <cough> ghey sex please, we're <cough> Greek <cough>:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1116/blasphemy-charges-filed-over-greek-gay-jesus-play.html

Fecking Greeks! Sure they Invented Gayness!

Hotblack Desiato

All EU nations should agree to eliminate blasphemy laws in their own countries, and actively campaign for their removal worldwide.

robindch

The case against the Pakistani teenager accused of burning some pages from the koran has been dropped. Unlike the case of evidence-planting against a local mullah.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-20405290

Nodin

shizz wrote: »

Fecking Greeks! Sure they Invented Gayness!

And Greek islands, olive oil, and beaches. I think all four are somehow related.....

JuliusCaesar

Tantic guru in India fails to kill skeptic

(Delete if it's a re-post!)

Banbh

He shouldn't have let that crazy guy touch him - he could easily have been poisoned.

Dades

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Tantic guru in India fails to kill skeptic

(Delete if it's a re-post!)

This might interest you!
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056811217

pauldla

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Tantic guru in India fails to kill skeptic

(Delete if it's a re-post!)

Like in 'The Men Who Stare At Goats', the guru might put a hex on him that kills him fifteen years later...

Bannasidhe

pauldla wrote: »

Like in 'The Men Who Stare At Goats', the guru might put a hex on him that kills him fifteen years later...

Or 35....

Turtwig

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Tantic guru in India fails to kill skeptic

(Delete if it's a re-post!)

Please tell me the skeptic fakes death at some point.:D