The Hazards of Belief

Bannasidhe

Banbh wrote: »

Not sad but stupid. These are adults - both father and son - behaving like children and sulking. To use a current expression, they should both grow a pair.

Would you sulk and eat your dinner on a desk while your grown-up son and grandson are eating at an adjoining table? Of course not. Would you eat your dinner with your kid at a table with granda sulking in a corner eating by himself? Of course not.

My compassion for my fellow-man just doesn't stretch to self-inflicted misery by ejits.

I would rather eat my dinner sitting in the middle of the road then at the same table as my Father. He has the most appalling table manners and only a top set of false teeth - gummy spitty nose picky icky old man.

robindch

vibe666 wrote: »

this is very sad

News in from Popette two days ago was that she wasn't going to go to the wedding of the daughter of a friend of hers as the wedding was taking place in a registry office. Hardly needs to be said, but the friend, who shares many of Popette's religious views, is dreadfully hurt.

I'faith, hoist with her own petar'.

Brian Shanahan

vibe666 wrote: »

this is very sad.

http://aawa.co/blog/shameful-shunning-in-a-thousand-words/#more-2036

Feckin' eejit, that he would destroy his life for no reason.

joseph brand

vibe666 wrote: »

this is very sad.

expressing their opinion that I “must be an apostate” and “severe shunning would surely bring me to my senses.”

Severe shunning? Is that like extreme ignoring? Or hardcore blanking?

It is sad. That poor old man has been brainwashed into a miserable existence where his mind has been stunted. These people have closed minds and tunnel vision. At least there may be hope for the son, who seems to understand how insane things are.

The father had to go and ask 'the elders' if he could 'visit with' his son. This is so alien to me. Can't imagine asking anyone's permission if I were in that circumstance. The old man is a victim. Plain and simple.

recedite

Banbh wrote: »

Would you eat your dinner with your kid at a table with granda sulking in a corner eating by himself? Of course not.

The point is, he was invited to sit with his son and grandkid but it was expressly forbidden by "the church".

Banbh

The point is that he went along with the ludramáns, thus proving himself a servile, spineless oul ejit.

I'm sure the reactions would be the same when it's a woman stupidly following some "religious advice".

Hotblack Desiato

Well, my misandry antennae didn't twitch at all...

Banbh

Yeah that's right. People were only commenting because the religious nut-jobs were male - and white and American and middle-class and...

kiffer

Banbh wrote: »

Yeah that's right. People were only commenting because the religious nut-jobs were male - and white and American and middle-class and...

No... but perhaps if it had been his mother people would have been annoyed at the presumably all/allmost all male council rather than the person stuck at the second table because "women have less agency than men" the man should know better/be able to stand up for himself?
If he doesn't he's an idiot loser.
If a woman doesn't she's being oppressed.

But both are being oppressed, both fear the power of the religious group to cut them off from the rest of the community...
Yes most of the power is held by men... but in this case and situation it's not held by that man, it's held by the council to whom he had to go and ask for permission to even talk to his child and grandchild.

Banbh

Or if it had been his neighbour who is a native-American...

robindch

Banbh wrote: »

The point is that he went along with the ludramáns, thus proving himself a servile, spineless oul ejit.

No doubt he is, but one doesn't know the pressure that he's been put under too -- certainly, there are people who'd enjoy doing this kind of thing, but I think there are a lot of poorly-educated, low-attainment, low-self-esteem, guilt-ridden, ultimately vulnerable, people whom various religious leaderships take advantage of, and they're the people upon whose disgraceful shoulders rests the blame for this sad, sad sight.

Banbh

Well he may be suffering from some dreadful disease or have some horrible injury - we can't see clearly in the picture nor is it mentioned in the story. Neither is there any mention of his educational background, his IQ or his income. So, going on the story, I will have to continue with my opinion that he is an ejit.

vibe666

well i'm just impressed that i've managed to spark a bit of a debate on the subject.

biscuit anyone? :pac:

norrie rugger

Banbh wrote: »

Well he may be suffering from some dreadful disease or have some horrible injury - we can't see clearly in the picture nor is it mentioned in the story. Neither is there any mention of his educational background, his IQ or his income. So, going on the story, I will have to continue with my opinion that he is an ejit.

He is an idiot because he was brainwashed and indoctrinated, by his parents, from an early age? An age where access to information was severely limited and controlled.

People, in this country, until recently were giving their children away (or had them taken with no reason given or sought) because of the power of the church.
Families were sending their daughters into slave labour for getting pregnant outside marriage, where the police kidnapped girls that escaped and returned them to the church.
Just because you grew up in a maturing Ireland, where the power of the church is severely curtailed doesn't give you the right to call someone an ejit, for being in thrall of a powerful organisation

Banbh

I grew up in the 1950s and he's still an ejit.

A basic principle of civilisation is that people are responsible for their actions except in exceptional circumstances - diminished responsibility, as we call it. No exceptional circumstances apply to this white, middle-class, American male - definitely not an underprivileged minority.

Crimes committed in Ireland against children do not lessen this man's idiocy. His actions are on his own head and his alone. The ejit tag still holds.

robindch

Banbh wrote: »

His actions are on his own head and his alone. The ejit tag still holds.

I'll grant he's an eejit, but if his decision-making process has been corrupted and ultimately owned by religion and religious leaders to the extent that he's granted them the right to tell him what to do, then as above, the primary responsibility for this sad affair lies with the people responsible for taking advantage of him -- his religious leaders.

Needless to say, he's an eejit for outsourcing his moral compass too.

Banbh

If it's true of him, it is also true of 95% of the Irish population so none of us are fully responsible for our actions.

My decision-making process has been corrupted and is owned by Brother King and Father Larkin - I might try that on the judge in the traffic court next week.

robindch

Banbh wrote: »

If it's true of him, it is also true of 95% of the Irish population so none of us are fully responsible for our actions.

To a greater or lesser extent that's true. Still, while the law does allow a defence of diminished responsibility as well as insanity, it's arguably best not to rely upon either of them.

Best of luck in court next week

Sarky

Sheikh issues fatwa against travelling to Mars.

I... This is... I mean, what?

Nodin

Sarky wrote: »

Sheikh issues fatwa against travelling to Mars.

I... This is... I mean, what?

Interestingly, its actually directed against the "one way trip" mission.
http://www.news.com.au/technology/science/saudi-sheikh-ali-al-hemki-declares-fatwa-against-manned-missions-to-mars/story-fnjwlcze-1226750128434

Maybe he thinks you go there, last a few weeks, and then keel over.....

recedite

I hope the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons issue their own fatwas next.
Can you imagine spending the rest of your life in the middle chalet, and it turns out there are JW's in the chalet at one end, and mormons in the chalet at the other end....
Knock knock on the door, every morning, groundhog day forever

MrPudding

Sarky wrote: »

Sheikh issues fatwa against travelling to Mars.

I... This is... I mean, what?

I can't help but think that would somehow make the whole venture somewhat safer. Does that make me racist?

MrP

Delirium

Sarky wrote: »

Sheikh issues fatwa against travelling to Mars.

I... This is... I mean, what?

He took the whole "women are venus, men are from mars" thing literally. You send the astronauts to the planet of women! :P

robindch

Somebody's finally written a book about it -- estimating perhaps two children per week are dying through religious parental neglect in the USA:

http://www.amazon.com/In-Name-God-Children-Faith-Healing/dp/1250005795/ref=reg_hu-rd_dp_img

Some Purple Proser wrote:

An anonymous caller tells a detective in a small Oregon town that a woman has just bitten off a man's finger. But the man is not the victim, the caller says. The woman is. She's being held by a group of faith-healing fanatics who are trying to cure her depression with violent exorcisms. Then the detective gets an even more ominous message: Children in the church have been dying mysteriously for years, and now several more are in immediate peril.

The caller, a church insider, risks everything to work with detectives and prosecutors to stop faith-based child abuse, joined by a mother who’d suffered a faith-healing tragedy herself and dedicated her life to saving others from it. Masterfully written by Cameron Stauth, In the Name of God is the true story of the heroic mission that exposed the darkest secret of American fundamentalism, and the political deals that let thousands of children die at the hands of their own parents--legally.

Faith-healing abuse still continues around the country, but the victory in Oregon has lit the path to a better future, in which no child need die because of a parent's beliefs.

pauldla

robindch wrote: »

Somebody's finally written a book about it -- estimating perhaps two children per week are dying through religious parental neglect in the USA:

http://www.amazon.com/In-Name-God-Children-Faith-Healing/dp/1250005795/ref=reg_hu-rd_dp_img

Isn't there a case in the news at the moment about a similar case, where the child was being home-schooled..? Alas, I have no link to hand, my apologies.

[-0-]

Sarky wrote: »

Sheikh issues fatwa against travelling to Mars.

I... This is... I mean, what?

They've declared jihad on the allah-hating martians.

More from these

http://www.examiner.com/article/another-child-s-death-linked-to-pearls-and-to-train-up-a-child



:(:(

robindch

For those who have forgotten/were unaware of it, Ken Ham of Creation "Museum" fame has spent the last few years drumming up interest in his "Ark Encounter", a playpark for creationists young and old which includes a reconstruction of Noah's ark, presumably full-size. The physics and biology of what he's proposing are troublesome enough and it would be nothing but the sweetest justice to see him and his organization slowly submerge beneath several yards of elephant, camel and giraffe shit.

However, it seems that Ham is having fatal trouble on the financial side too:

Noah’s Ark Depends on Faith in Default-Plagued Debt: Muni Credit

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2013-11-14/noah-s-ark-depends-on-faith-in-default-plagued-debt-muni-credit

Business Week wrote:

Given the default history of unrated municipal debt, investors may have to pray for the success of bonds being sold to build a full-scale replica of Noah’s Ark.

The northern Kentucky city of Williamstown plans to offer $62 million of securities next month for affiliates of Answers in Genesis, a Christian nonprofit that operates the Creation Museum upstate. Proceeds will help build a 510-foot (155.4-meter) wooden ship, the centerpiece of a planned biblical theme park called “Ark Encounter.” Bond documents project the venue will attract at least 1.2 million people in its first year.

Investors who buy $100,000 of the taxable securities will get a lifetime family pass, bond documents show. Yet they may not get their money back, given the track record of unrated munis. Of the 438 issuers currently in default, 93 percent initially offered bonds without a credit grade, according to Concord, Massachusetts-based Municipal Market Advisors. “If it’s something you believe in and you want to help them out, you can buy the bonds,” said Gene Gard, who oversees $1.3 billion in munis at Dupree & Co. in Lexington, Kentucky, about 45 miles south of the proposed site. He said he wouldn’t consider purchasing the debt. “People give to charity all the time,” he said in an interview. “If you buy an issue like this and lose money, it could end up being deductible for you as well. Maybe you could think of these bonds as charity with some upside.”

From the VisionLand amusement park that showcased the experience of mining and steel production in Bessemer, Alabama, to the Great Platte River Road Archway in Kearney, Nebraska, munis have financed tourist attractions aimed at boosting local economies. Many ventures have failed to repay bondholders. The Nebraska museum, which depicts the 19th century pioneer experience, this year offered investors $50,000 for $20 million of bonds. About 2,500 issuers in the $3.7 trillion market for city and state obligations defaulted from 1970 to 2011, the Federal Reserve Bank of New York said in a report last year. Industrial-development bonds, like those for Ark Encounter and the Nebraska venue, represented 28 percent of the failures, the most of any segment. “The history of theme parks and specialized projects like these has not been very good,” said Triet Nguyen, a managing partner at Axios Advisors LLC, a municipal-research company. “This is the first one I’ve seen in a while that reminds me of those debacles from the early days of the high-yield market.”

The plan for the Kentucky site envisions visitors mingling with costumed villagers in a first-century community featuring period dining. A lake with special effects will mimic the subterranean explosion that the bond documents say triggered the biblical flood. The latter-day ark, eventually housing a petting zoo, will be built according to dimensions specified in the Book of Genesis in cubits, an ancient unit of measurement that bond documents say equals 20.4 inches. The documents cite at least 39 risks to investors, ranging from the potential for the animals to catch infectious diseases to the unclear constitutionality of tax incentives for a biblically themed attraction. There’s also no assurance that projected results, which are based on data gathered as early as 2008, will materialize, bond statements say. Nor is Answers in Genesis backing the debt. Bondholders’ sole revenue stream comes from money spent at Ark Encounter. The park “may never achieve positive cash flow,” which documents say would lead to default.

Michael Zovath, co-founder of Answers in Genesis, said the group’s Creation Museum, 48 miles away in Petersburg, shows why investors can have confidence. The 70,000 square-foot museum, which features zip lines, camel rides and an exhibit about whether dinosaurs were dragons, attracted 404,000 people in its first year, compared with a projection of 400,000, he said in an interview. Attendance has declined every year since the museum opened in 2007, offering documents show. Ark Encounter assumes annual visitor increases, according to a feasibility study prepared by the Nehemiah Group, which says it has consulted on religious and biblically sourced attractions worldwide since 1998.

Ark Encounter may also face legal hurdles stemming from its religious theme. The park’s 75 percent property-tax break from Williamstown has drawn scrutiny from groups such as Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Attorneys for the Washington-based organization are “reluctant to proceed with litigation for something that may or may not happen,” said Alex Luchenitser, the group’s associate legal director. Williamstown Mayor Rick Skinner said he has “a lot of faith” in attendance projections and that residents of the community of about 3,900 are eager for the park to open and draw tourists. Talks about issuing bonds began last year, he said. The project has collected about $14 million of the $73 million needed for the park through donations. “It’s an awful lot of money to ask for investors to put up,” Skinner said in an interview. “We thought bonds probably would be the ultimate answer to their financing.” Ark Encounter will be built on about 200 acres, with 800 acres reserved for future expansion such as hotels and restaurants, the documents show. Construction will begin in March, and the park is slated to open in April 2016.

The 1.2 million to 2 million visitors projected for Ark Encounter’s first year translates to $42.4 million of gross sales, according to the documents. The forecast is based on a study by American Research Group that found two-thirds of the U.S. population has interest in visiting such an attraction. The site’s nearest competitor is Kings Island, an amusement park about 60 miles north in Mason, Ohio. It drew 3.2 million visitors in 2012, 16th most among North American theme parks, according to a report by the Themed Entertainment Association and Aecom Technology Corp. Ark Encounter planners hope the biblical park will draw new visitors to northern Kentucky rather than siphon off from nearby attractions. “We’re really trying to focus on the cultural heritage and religious travel market, not thrill-seekers,” Zovath said.

Earnings will fund future attractions such as the “Ten Plagues Ride” and a 100-foot-high “Tower of Babel,” according to the offering statement. The group will embark on major capital projects every other year starting in the third year the venue is open, documents show. For the project’s risk, the extra yield isn’t sufficient, said Gard, Nguyen and Bill Black at Invesco Ltd. The taxable bonds due in 15 years are projected to yield 6 percent, offering documents show. That’s equivalent to 3.62 percent tax-free for the highest earners. In comparison, benchmark revenue bonds with a similar maturity and rated five steps above speculative grade yield 4.32 percent, Bloomberg data show. The projected yields “just boggle my mind,” Nguyen said. The rate on the 15-year debt should be at least 8 percent, he said. Answers in Genesis is “pleased with the reception” for the bonds in the market, Joe Boone, the nonprofit’s vice president of advancement, said in a statement. Boone declined to comment on how the yields were determined and if they could be raised.

Ross Sinclaire & Associates is the underwriter on the deal. Dan Blank, in the company’s Cincinnati office, said in an e-mail that it is against company policy to comment on bond offerings during order periods. Williamstown may have to boost interest rates to entice investors who have limited cash. Individuals have pulled $7.6 billion from high-yield muni funds in 2013, Lipper US Fund Flows data show. “It’s fair to say that high-yield municipal investors will approach this with a good deal of caution,” said Black, who oversees Invesco’s $5.8 billion high-yield municipal fund (ACTDX:US) from Oakbrook Terrace, Illinois. “We have a long memory of deals like this.” [....]

Sarky

Really, what is it with creationists and dodgy finances? Is there a passage in Genesis that says "thou shalt scam the sh*t out of the state"?

SebBerkovich

Sarky wrote: »

Really, what is it with creationists and dodgy finances? Is there a passage in Genesis that says "thou shalt scam the sh*t out of the state"?

I don't think it specified you should scam "the state" it's more used as a guild line.

PopePalpatine

Sarky wrote: »

Really, what is it with creationists and dodgy finances? Is there a passage in Genesis that says "thou shalt scam the sh*t out of the state"?

Nah, it's probably in Judges. :pac:

Why else would they have no qualms about avoiding tax on multi-million dollar profits?

Quatermain

Is it me, or is the fact that they want to call one ride "The Tower of Babel" just asking for a horrific smiting-related "accident"? I mean come on, lads. At least read your own material.

endacl

bluewolf wrote: »

More from these

http://www.examiner.com/article/another-child-s-death-linked-to-pearls-and-to-train-up-a-child



:(:(

The first review of 'To Train....' on Amazon:

"2 people wrote this book. 900 people gave this book 5-star reviews. That's 902 people that the police should be keeping an eye on."

Gordon

robindch wrote: »

For those who have forgotten/were unaware of it, Ken Ham of Creation "Museum" fame has spent the last few years drumming up interest in his "Ark Encounter", a playpark for creationists young and old which includes a reconstruction of Noah's ark, presumably full-size. The physics and biology of what he's proposing are troublesome enough and it would be nothing but the sweetest justice to see him and his organization slowly submerge beneath several yards of elephant, camel and giraffe shit.

However, it seems that Ham is having fatal trouble on the financial side too:

Noah’s Ark Depends on Faith in Default-Plagued Debt: Muni Credit

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2013-11-14/noah-s-ark-depends-on-faith-in-default-plagued-debt-muni-credit

He should pray to his god for the money.

Hotblack Desiato

bluewolf wrote: »

More from these

http://www.examiner.com/article/another-child-s-death-linked-to-pearls-and-to-train-up-a-child



:(:(

That's from 3 years ago. Here's what happened

Kevin Schatz was sentenced to two life terms for second-degree murder and torture and will have to serve at [sic]22 years. Elizabeth Schatz was sentenced to 13 years, four months for voluntary manslaughter and infliction of unlawful corporal punishment.

robindch

Turns out that if you believe that somebody's doing something bad because of the existence of "pure evil" (ie, Satan's making them do it) then you're more likely to respond aggressively to that person. This may go some way to explain the nutty level of imprisonment levels within religious countries like the USA.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=psychological-power-satan

Scientific American wrote:

Justice Antonin Scalia and Keyser Soze agree: the greatest trick the devil could ever pull is convincing the world he didn’t exist. Fortunately for them, the devil does not seem to be effectively executing this plan. Some 70 percent of Americans, according to a 2007 Gallup Poll, believe in his existence. This personification of evil has implications beyond the supernatural, influencing how we think about what it means for people to be “pure evil.” And as we prepare to playfully celebrate the wicked and depraved on Halloween night, it’s worth pausing to reflect on some of the psychological and behavioral consequences of these beliefs.

Evil has been defined as taking pleasure in the intentional inflicting of harm on innocent others, and ever since World War II social psychologists have been fascinated by the topic. Many of the formative thinkers in the field — Kurt Lewin, Stanley Milgram , Solomon Asch — were inspired by their experiences with, and observations of, what appeared to most people at the time to be the indisputable incarnation of pure evil. But what many saw as a clear demonstration of unredeemable and deep-seated malice, these researchers interpreted as more, in the words of Hannah Arendt, banal. From Milgram’s famous studies of obedience to Zimbardo’s prison study, psychologists have argued for the roots of evil actions in quite ordinary psychological causes. This grounding of evil in ordinary, as opposed to extraordinary, phenomena have led some to describe the notion of “pure evil” as a myth. A misguided understanding of human nature deriving both from specific socio-cultural traditions as well as a general tendency to understand others’ behavior as a product solely of their essence, their soul, as opposed to a more complicated combination of environmental and individual forces.

The issue of whether “pure evil” exists, however, is separate from what happens to our judgments and our behavior when we believe in its existence. It is this question to which several researchers have recently begun to turn. How can we measure people’s belief in pure evil (BPE) and what consequences does such a belief have on our responses to wrong-doers?

According to this research, one of the central features of BPE is evil’s perceived immutability. Evil people are born evil – they cannot change. Two judgments follow from this perspective: 1) evil people cannot be rehabilitated, and 2) the eradication of evil requires only the eradication of all the evil people. Following this logic, the researchers tested the hypothesis that there would be a relationship between BPE and the desire to aggress towards and punish wrong-doers.

Researchers have found support for this hypothesis across several papers containing multiple studies, and employing diverse methodologies. BPE predicts such effects as: harsher punishments for crimes (e.g. murder, assault, theft), stronger reported support for the death penalty, and decreased support for criminal rehabilitation. Follow-up studies corroborate these findings, showing that BPE also predicts the degree to which participants perceive the world to be dangerous and vile, the perceived need for preemptive military aggression to solve conflicts, and reported support for torture.

Regardless of whether the devil actually exists, belief in the power of human evil seems to have significant and important consequences for how we approach solving problems of real-world wrongdoing. When we see people’s antisocial behavior as the product of an enduring and powerful malice, we see few options beyond a comprehensive and immediate assault on the perpetrators. They cannot be helped, and any attempts to do so would be a waste of time and resources.

But if we accept the message from decades of social psychological research, that at least some instances of violence and malice are not the result of “pure evil” — that otherwise decent individuals can, under certain circumstances, be compelled to commit horrible acts, even atrocities — then the results of these studies serve as an important cautionary tale. The longer we cling to strong beliefs about the existence of pure evil, the more aggressive and antisocial we become. And we may be aggressing towards individuals who are, in fact, “redeemable.” Individuals who are not intrinsically and immutably motivated by the desire to intentionally cause harm to others. That may be the greatest trick the devil has ever pulled.

Delirium

Sarky wrote: »

Really, what is it with creationists and dodgy finances? Is there a passage in Genesis that says "thou shalt scam the sh*t out of the state"?

for all we know Noah borrowed heavily from the banks with full knowledge of the impending flood:pac:

Delirium

bluewolf wrote: »

More from these

http://www.examiner.com/article/another-child-s-death-linked-to-pearls-and-to-train-up-a-child



:(:(

Petition to get Amazon to stop selling the book

robindch

Some new frescoes on show in the Vatican. Unfortunately, they may show that the early church had women priests. In response, the head of the Vatican's sacred archaeology commission, said that this interpretation is a "fable, a legend."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/19/vatican--frescoes_n_4305560.html

Hotblack Desiato

Well, successfully following a religion is all about knowing which 'legends, fables' to reject and which to invest in, these priest guys know their stuff having studied advanced godology for years, so best listen to them

Turtwig

ninja900 wrote: »

Well, successfully following a religion is all about knowing which 'legends, fables' to reject and which to invest in, these priest guys know their stuff having studied advanced godology for years, so best listen to them

codology.*

Genghiz Cohen

Jernal wrote: »

codology.*

Bollockology*

PopePalpatine

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Bollockology*

That must be what J C's "conventional science degree" is about. :pac:

Delirium

Looks like some Irish Christians are promising to attack any Muslim man, woman or child that attempts to enter a mosque. Leaflet was sent to some mosques and Muslims in Dublin.

Gordon

Some seriously bad grammar there.

Bannasidhe

koth wrote: »

Looks like some Irish Christians are promising to attack any Muslim man, woman or child that attempts to enter a mosque. Leaflet was sent to some mosques and Muslims in Dublin.

Ah - religion.

Here we have members of the Religion of Love threatening to attack members of the Religion of Peace...:rolleyes:

Quatermain

They haven't plaid any part of our history.

They weren't kilt in the name of freedom? Let's hope they're not tartan feathered.

endacl

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ah - religion.

Here we have members of the Religion of Love threatening to attack members of the Religion of Peace...:rolleyes:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YPIsTKpAoE4&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DYPIsTKpAoE4

FouxDaFaFa

Talk about rambling. They need snappier points.

Also:

Were there any muslims prior to 1959?

Probably...

Could you charge somebody with "incitement to hatred" for writing that?