The Hazards of Belief

the_eman

Quatermain wrote: »

Yeah...there was a Dutch fellow lately who made his own ark. It was hailed and lauded as "proof" that it could exist. When asked how he built it, he responded by saying that he had begun by welding several small boats together to form the base. Several boats. Of steel. Welded. Apparently an acetylene torch is more powerful than the gods.

Ya and some Chinese dude built one last year thinking the end of Mayan calendar was the next flood, this does not mean Noah didn't exist.

Quatermain

the_eman wrote: »

Ya and some Chinese dude built one last year thinking the end of Mayan calendar was the next flood, this does not mean Noah didn't exist.

I mean that he built it as a replica of the "actual" ark, by the by. It's actually impossible to have built a boat that size out of nothing but wood and not have it snap in half under its own weight. The weight distribution and keel depth would have been damn near impossible to manage without modern materials. I did spend quite some time dissecting this from both a historical and archaeological point of view.

But oh, wait. You have "god". The ultimate trump card.

Brian Shanahan

the_eman wrote: »

Ya and some Chinese dude built one last year thinking the end of Mayan calendar was the next flood, this does not mean Noah didn't exist.

No but the Babylonian tablets which tell the original myth (nothing to do with the bible) do disprove his existence.

kylith

If Noah did exist he was just some guy who saved some of his livestock in a small boat from a local flood, then exaggerated wildly when he'd had a few too many beers down the pub later.

the_eman

kylith wrote: »

If Noah did exist he was just some guy who saved some of his livestock in a small boat from a local flood, then exaggerated wildly when he'd had a few too many beers down the pub later.

Ahh that must be it.

pauldla

the_eman wrote: »

Ahh that must be it.

You prefer the 'impossibly old man builds impossibly large ship to save an impossibly large number of animals from an impossibly big flood sent by a disturbingly capricious and punitive deity' theory, I take it?

the_monkey

Sure God just sized down the animals for Noah , they all fit in a matchbox ...

if God can do anything, surely he could do that ?

It would be an easier explanation of trying to rationalize a boat that contained 2 of EVERY SPECIES !!!

norrie rugger

the_monkey wrote: »

Sure God just sized down the animals for Noah , they all fit in a matchbox ...

if God can do anything, surely he could do that ?

It would be an easier explanation of trying to rationalize a boat that contained 2 of EVERY SPECIES !!!

Book: What are we up to, sweetheart?
River Tam: Fixing your Bible.
Book: I, um...
[alarmed]
Book: What?
River Tam: Bible's broken. Contradictions, false logistics - doesn't make sense.
[she's marked up the bible, crossed out passages and torn out pages]
Book: No, no. You-you-you can't...
River Tam: So we'll integrate non-progressional evolution theory with God's creation of Eden. Eleven inherent metaphoric parallels already there. Eleven. Important number. Prime number. One goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. Noah's ark is a problem.
Book: Really?
River Tam: We'll have to call it early quantum state phenomenon. Only way to fit 5000 species of mammal on the same boat.
[rips out page]

kylith

the_monkey wrote: »

Sure God just sized down the animals for Noah , they all fit in a matchbox ...

if God can do anything, surely he could do that ?

It would be an easier explanation of trying to rationalize a boat that contained 2 of EVERY SPECIES !!!

Not 2 of every species. It was 2 of the 'unclean' animals and 7 of the 'clean' ones, so it might take a few matchboxes.

Brian Shanahan

pauldla wrote: »

You prefer the 'impossibly old man builds impossibly large ship to save an impossibly large number of animals from an impossibly big flood sent by a disturbingly capricious and punitive deity' theory, I take it?

Nah he prefers the "we stole our mythology from the Babylonians because we were too dull to think up of our own" line.

robindch

The Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe is looking into circumcision. Religious leaders said it was fine. Medical staff, mostly, said it wasn't.

http://intactnews.org/node/422/1390925710/experts-religious-leaders-and-activists-square-council-europe039s-circumcision-d

Turtwig

Don't worry they'll find medical doctors who say it's fine.

The Black Oil

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Btp2MZONow

Interview here (16 minutes) with Mikey Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom about some of the religious antics going on in the US military. Interestingly, some of his clients are Christian and don't like what they see.

the_eman

pauldla wrote: »

You prefer the 'impossibly old man builds impossibly large ship to save an impossibly large number of animals from an impossibly big flood sent by a disturbingly capricious and punitive deity' theory, I take it?

Remove the word impossibly and I agree.

There are loads of resources describing how a boat that size could carry that amount of animals.

http://creation.com/how-did-all-the-animals-fit-on-noahs-ark

Bannasidhe

the_eman wrote: »

Remove the word impossibly and I agree.

There are loads of resources describing how a boat that size could carry that amount of animals.

http://creation.com/how-did-all-the-animals-fit-on-noahs-ark

Annnnd here are 'resources' that discuss the writer of the 'resource' your linky brings us to...http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/dr_jonathan_sarfati.htm

Tell me... in your experience do degrees in Chemistry usually deal with boat building, climatology, archaeology etc etc etc?

kylith

the_eman wrote: »

Remove the word impossibly and I agree.

There are loads of resources describing how a boat that size could carry that amount of animals.

http://creation.com/how-did-all-the-animals-fit-on-noahs-ark

The word 'impossibly' is accurate, the ship could not have been that big, it could not possibly have held a minimum of two of all earth's animals, a flood that covers the entire planet could not have happened, and Noah was not 900 at the time.

There is no way in hell, or Earth, or anywhere else that a boat that size made of wood could either hold together under its own weight or successfully navigate a body of water. Also, the technology to build a boat capable of holding more than 8.4 million pairs of animals*, plus food, plus water, for more than a month was not available in the bronze age, and probably still isn't today. Coupled with that we have the problem that 1 breeding pair of each animal is nowhere near a sustainable gene pool and that all the animals would have died out through inbreeding within a couple of generations.

The site you gave listed the length of the ark as 140m. The longest wooden ship ever built was called the Wyoming, was 100m in length, and had to have the hold continuously pumped out because of the amount of water let in by the planking, so I would very much doubt that a farmer was able to build a boat 40% bigger' from lumber he found lying around the Middle East, using an adze, with no pumping equipment available, three thousand years earlier.

If you can come up with any scientific reason as to why I'm incorrect; i.e. not taken from creation.org or a similar page, I'd love to see it.

*Taking a conservative estimate.

pauldla

the_eman wrote: »

Remove the word impossibly and I agree.

There are loads of resources describing how a boat that size could carry that amount of animals.

http://creation.com/how-did-all-the-animals-fit-on-noahs-ark

So you're down with the 'disturbingly capricious and punitive deity' bit, then?

Sorry, I had to, so beautifully marked, and downwind as well.

Gordon

Never understood why creationists don't just say that their god simply shrunk the animals. If it can murder every non-ark baby, adult, child, old person and animal by creating underground jets of water and enough rain out of thin air to raise the sea level drastically, then just magic the animals smaller. Or for that matter, just magic the sinners away. Or just magic another solution.

Pherekydes

kylith wrote: »

...and Noah was not 900 at the time.

Pffft. Noah was only 600 when he began his little DIY project. So still in his prime.

Sure didn't Gandalf reach 2000 years of age?

Penn

Gordon wrote: »

Never understood why creationists don't just say that their god simply shrunk the animals. If it can murder every non-ark baby, adult, child, old person and animal by creating underground jets of water and enough rain out of thin air to raise the sea level drastically, then just magic the animals smaller. Or for that matter, just magic the sinners away. Or just magic another solution.

That's the ultimate argument against Noah's Ark imo. You point out all the animals couldn't fit on the boat, they point out God can do anything so could have made it happen, you point out that if God can do anything, why did he need to cause the flood in the first place?

Anything after that just highlights the crazy reasoning creationists will resort to to try and justify something just because they can't fathom the possibility that they're wrong.

the_eman

Penncil Dick wrote: »

That's the ultimate argument against Noah's Ark imo. You point out all the animals couldn't fit on the boat, they point out God can do anything so could have made it happen, you point out that if God can do anything, why did he need to cause the flood in the first place?

Anything after that just highlights the crazy reasoning creationists will resort to to try and justify something just because they can't fathom the possibility that they're wrong.

God gave free will, people make a mess, God corrects.

The Ark was large enough for all the animals.

Gordon

the_eman wrote: »

God gave free will, people make a mess, God corrects.

So did the original people that your god created out of thin air evolve into sinners, and therefore your god wiped out the bad genes by process of his selection thereby ensuring only the Moses gene pool existed? If not, what is to stop messers from being born now, and if that happens, what was the point of killing innocent babies if there are still people making a mess in this world now?

Penn

the_eman wrote: »

God gave free will, people make a mess, God corrects.

Okay, so God realises everyone bar Noah and his family have messed up and need to be removed.

So his plan is for Noah to spend years of his life building a giant ark to house millions of animals. Assuming that were possible, which it isn't as the size of the boat is clearly mentioned in the Bible and isn't big enough for all the animals, meaning God would have had to shrink the animals or make the Ark into the Tardis from Doctor Who or something, but assuming that were true, God then proceeds to flood the Earth, killing everyone and all the other animals (who did nothing wrong).

Why couldn't God have just killed all the people instead? Click of the fingers, remove them from existence. *Click* - Gone.

Why couldn't he have made them dissolve back into clay, like how he originally created Adam but in reverse?

How the hell was the Ark his best solution? Why did God purposefully (considering he has the ability to achieve the same result with as little pain to those he's killing as possible) choose instead to make them all drown? Why did God KILL everyone on the planet?

He wanted to get rid of wickedness and sin. So he killed everyone? And there's STILL wickedness and sin in the world?

God done f*cked up.

Cabaal

Penncil Dick wrote: »

He wanted to get rid of wickedness and sin. So he killed everyone? And there's STILL wickedness and sin in the world?

God done f*cked up.

Yep, ****ed up,
But you know what else it all proves, god is very very far from all powerful

Infact he's a bad planner and has as much power as man does, after all as a race we are also capable of wiping out everything on our planet....not a good plan but we can do it

Delirium

Stephen Hawking’s Blunder on Black Holes Shows Danger of Listening to Scientists, Says Bachmann

WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—Dr. Stephen Hawking’s recent statement that the black holes he famously described do not actually exist underscores “the danger inherent in listening to scientists,” Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minnesota) said today.

Rep. Bachmann unleashed a blistering attack on Dr. Hawking, who earlier referred to his mistake on black holes as his “biggest blunder.”

“Actually, Dr. Hawking, our biggest blunder as a society was ever listening to people like you,” said Rep. Bachmann. “If black holes don’t exist, then other things you scientists have been trying to foist on us probably don’t either, like climate change and evolution.”

Rep. Bachmann added that all the students who were forced to learn about black holes in college should now sue Dr. Hawking for a full refund. “Fortunately for me, I did not take any science classes in college,” she said.

There's a shocker! :P

Cabaal

“Actually, Dr. Hawking, our biggest blunder as a society was ever listening to people like you,” said Rep. Bachmann. “If black holes don’t exist, then other things you scientists have been trying to foist on us probably don’t either, like climate change and evolution.”

Or gravity!
****en scientists, holding me down, telling what I can't do, stopping me from flying!

Pherekydes

She really comes across as the dimmest of a really dim shower. She glories in wallowing in her ignorance.

PopePalpatine

I want to whack her in the face with an Junior Cert-level science textbook.

mikhail

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I want to whack her in the face with an Junior Cert-level science textbook.

Let's not resort to violence, even the theoretical kind.

That said, every time I hear that woman quoted, my opinion of humanity diminishes a little more.

Brian Shanahan

The Black Oil wrote: »

Interestingly, some of his clients are Christian and don't like what they see.

Of course, a lot more christians use their brains than don't. We've Czarcasm in this neck of the woods for example.

Brian Shanahan

Pherekydes wrote: »

Pffft. Noah was only 600 when he began his little DIY project. So still in his prime.

Sure didn't Gandalf reach 2000 years of age?

That's nothing, I personally am older than the universe.

Brian Shanahan

the_eman wrote: »

God gave free will

How does this square with the twin assertions made many times in the Bible that god is omnipotent and omniscient?

Leave aside the fact for a moment that omnipotence and omniscience are mutually impossible. We'll get to them if you can answer the first question.

Hotblack Desiato

SW wrote: »

Stephen Hawking’s Blunder on Black Holes Shows Danger of Listening to Scientists, Says Bachmann

WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—Dr. Stephen Hawking’s recent statement that the black holes he famously described do not actually exist underscores “the danger inherent in listening to scientists,” Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minnesota) said today.

Hawking did not say that they do not exist. He conceded a bet in 2004 in relation to the Black hole information paradox. But you wouldn't really expect Bachmann to get that right, would you?

Sarky

She's so dense it's a wonder any light escapes her surface.

Yeah. I went there.

MrPudding

Oh dear...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/25943051

MrP

PopePalpatine

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

How does this square with the twin assertions made many times in the Bible that god is omnipotent and omniscient?

Leave aside the fact for a moment that omnipotence and omniscience are mutually impossible. We'll get to them if you can answer the first question.

Omnipotence is impossible on its own:

Brian Shanahan

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Omnipotence is impossible on its own:
<snip, pic is waaaaaay too widescreeeeeeeeen>

I was hoping eman would answer, so as later I could spring stuff like this on him.

robindch

Priest: Here, yizzer reading the bible all wrong. The bible isn't "true" in the true sense of, uh, "true". If yiz know what I mean.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htxOjJHB5-8

the_eman

This may help you understand how something constructed with divine help is better, stronger and lasts longer. (please... no toilet paper references...)


Two mysteries surround the spiral staircase in the Loretto Chapel: the identity of its builder and the physics of its construction.

When the Loretto Chapel was completed in 1878, there was no way to access the choir loft twenty-two feet above. Carpenters were called in to address the problem, but they all concluded access to the loft would have to be via ladder as a staircase would interfere with the interior space of the small Chapel.

Legend says that to find a solution to the seating problem, the Sisters of the Chapel made a novena to St. Joseph, the patron saint of carpenters. On the ninth and final day of prayer, a man appeared at the Chapel with a donkey and a toolbox looking for work. Months later, the elegant circular staircase was completed, and the carpenter disappeared without pay or thanks. After searching for the man (an ad even ran in the local newspaper) and finding no trace of him, some concluded that he was St. Joseph himself, having come in answer to the sisters' prayers.

The stairway's carpenter, whoever he was, built a magnificent structure. The design was innovative for the time and some of the design considerations still perplex experts today.

The staircase has two 360 degree turns and no visible means of support. Also, it is said that the staircase was built without nails—only wooden pegs. Questions also surround the number of stair risers relative to the height of the choir loft and about the types of wood and other materials used in the stairway's construction.

Over the years many have flocked to the Loretto Chapel to see the Miraculous Staircase. The staircase has been the subject of many articles, TV specials, and movies including "Unsolved Mysteries" and the television movie titled "The Staircase."


http://www.lorettochapel.com/staircase.html


For some video on this FF to 23:45 in this.

33 steps...

Bannasidhe

the_eman wrote: »

This may help you understand how something constructed with divine help is better, stronger and lasts longer. (please... no toilet paper references...)


Two mysteries surround the spiral staircase in the Loretto Chapel: the identity of its builder and the physics of its construction.

When the Loretto Chapel was completed in 1878, there was no way to access the choir loft twenty-two feet above. Carpenters were called in to address the problem, but they all concluded access to the loft would have to be via ladder as a staircase would interfere with the interior space of the small Chapel.

Legend says that to find a solution to the seating problem, the Sisters of the Chapel made a novena to St. Joseph, the patron saint of carpenters. On the ninth and final day of prayer, a man appeared at the Chapel with a donkey and a toolbox looking for work. Months later, the elegant circular staircase was completed, and the carpenter disappeared without pay or thanks. After searching for the man (an ad even ran in the local newspaper) and finding no trace of him, some concluded that he was St. Joseph himself, having come in answer to the sisters' prayers.

The stairway's carpenter, whoever he was, built a magnificent structure. The design was innovative for the time and some of the design considerations still perplex experts today.

The staircase has two 360 degree turns and no visible means of support. Also, it is said that the staircase was built without nails—only wooden pegs. Questions also surround the number of stair risers relative to the height of the choir loft and about the types of wood and other materials used in the stairway's construction.

Over the years many have flocked to the Loretto Chapel to see the Miraculous Staircase. The staircase has been the subject of many articles, TV specials, and movies including "Unsolved Mysteries" and the television movie titled "The Staircase."


http://www.lorettochapel.com/staircase.html


For some video on this FF to 23:45 in this.

33 steps...

Tell me - is the carpenter described as being of Middle Eastern extraction?

gaynorvader

the_eman wrote: »

This may help you understand how something constructed with divine help is better, stronger and lasts longer. (please... no toilet paper references...)


Two mysteries surround the spiral staircase in the Loretto Chapel: the identity of its builder and the physics of its construction.

When the Loretto Chapel was completed in 1878, there was no way to access the choir loft twenty-two feet above. Carpenters were called in to address the problem, but they all concluded access to the loft would have to be via ladder as a staircase would interfere with the interior space of the small Chapel.

Legend says that to find a solution to the seating problem, the Sisters of the Chapel made a novena to St. Joseph, the patron saint of carpenters. On the ninth and final day of prayer, a man appeared at the Chapel with a donkey and a toolbox looking for work. Months later, the elegant circular staircase was completed, and the carpenter disappeared without pay or thanks. After searching for the man (an ad even ran in the local newspaper) and finding no trace of him, some concluded that he was St. Joseph himself, having come in answer to the sisters' prayers.

The stairway's carpenter, whoever he was, built a magnificent structure. The design was innovative for the time and some of the design considerations still perplex experts today.

The staircase has two 360 degree turns and no visible means of support. Also, it is said that the staircase was built without nails—only wooden pegs. Questions also surround the number of stair risers relative to the height of the choir loft and about the types of wood and other materials used in the stairway's construction.

Over the years many have flocked to the Loretto Chapel to see the Miraculous Staircase. The staircase has been the subject of many articles, TV specials, and movies including "Unsolved Mysteries" and the television movie titled "The Staircase."


http://www.lorettochapel.com/staircase.html


For some video on this FF to 23:45 in this.
{...}

33 steps...

http://www.snopes.com/horrors/ghosts/loretto.asp

Brian Shanahan

the_eman wrote: »

<snipping out a lot of bat guano>

The oldest spiral staircase people can climb is around Trajan's Column, and there are ruins of older ones (citation). So no it isn't innovative. And re the wooden pegs, what do you think carpenters have been using for thousands of years?

Turtwig

eman,this isn't your own personal soapbox thread. Any further attempts to directly derail this thread in only God knows what will be deleted. Cards may follow

robindch

A network of ‘homes’, where children’s happiness was relentlessly destroyed

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/a-network-of-homes-where-children-s-happiness-was-relentlessly-destroyed-1.1672331

Irish Times wrote:

When I was nine or 10 my mother decided to try to make us one of these rosary families. We managed for months before surliness crept in and the project was abandoned. While it lasted, every decade was said for a particular intention, for success in an exam, recovery from illness, the repose of the soul of a relative or neighbour, occasionally for the souls of Hitler or Stalin or the Black and Tans on the grounds that some of these villains might be in purgatory rather than in hell and they needed the prayers more than anybody else.

But always, the fifth decade was for: “The home boys, God help them.” The home was St Joseph’s, Termonbacca, just outside the Brandywell area, run by the Nazareth nuns. This week, some of the boys have begun to give evidence in Banbridge to the inquiry under retired crown court judge Sir Anthony Hart. The inquiry – the largest-ever into child abuse in the UK – will hear from about 300 former residents at Termonbacca and other church-run institutions.

The stories to be told echo the accounts of the suffering of children in church-run homes in the South and have gotten under way in the week of the European court’s judgment in the case brought by Louise O’Keeffe. Some aspects of our society have always been all-Ireland.
Even in conversation in the house or at the door, the home boys were spoken of in whispers. I recall it said that the home boys would find ease in heaven because they had assuredly done their purgatory on Earth. You’d occasionally see the home boys, about 40 at a time walking two by two, en route to or from school. “Ah, the poor crayturs.” Everybody knew. But the idea of “speaking out” didn’t occur. You didn’t talk back to the church.

Twenty years ago, I interviewed for the Sunday Tribune one of those now scheduled to testify, by then in a management position with a State enterprise in Dublin. He described the physical abuse, the constant atmosphere of terror, the despair that would descend when you wet the bed and had to lie awake, sodden, waiting for the ritual humiliation of the morning. “Nobody ever put their arm around you and said, ‘You are a good kid.’ Everything that was done was done to keep you subservient “The bishop used to come once a year, at Christmas, which meant that from October we would be up until 11 at night rehearsing for his concert. Everything had to be perfect: songs, hymns, the Christmas crib. I dreaded it. Then he would come in all his splendour and we would all line up and kiss his ring, calling him ‘My lord’. The nuns pampered the bishop right, left and centre.”

Worst of all was deprivation of family. All his siblings, too, had been “taken into care” when he was a toddler. He had since discovered that his sisters had been held in the girls’ home, Nazareth House, where he’d gone in convoy to infants’ school. “At some time I must have been sitting in the same classroom as one or more of them, but I was never told. When you put that alongside all the talk now of charity, of keeping families together, it doesn’t seem to bear thinking about.” He had found some of them since, one in a mental institution. Most he never found.

Girls held in Nazareth House fared no better. Peggy Gibson was shipped to Australia, aged eight. She was told on the way that her name was now Margaret Teresa and that she had no brothers or sisters. But she remembered her older brother, Pat, who had been taken to Termonbacca. “I remember the way I would wait for him on Sundays to come and take me out. He would take me on a walk out the Letterkenny Road and lift me up and sit me on a wall, a wall that is still there to this day. He had bright red hair.” From Australia, she searched for him for years. In 1978 she came back to Derry, knocked on the doors of Nazareth House and the bishops’ residence, but was told there were no records that might help in her search.

She hired a private detective who located him in Ballybay in 1992, six months too late. He had lived alone and kept himself apart, worked as a farm labourer. “I had all these papers to show him, all the letters I had written and records of the people I had spoken to . . . I wanted to be able to say, ‘Look, see, there, I never gave up on you.”

Stories of this sort will tumble out to the inquiry over the next 18 months, making it plain that the network of “homes” where children’s happiness had relentlessly, deliberately, systematically been destroyed, this archipelago of Catholic evil, had covered the entire island.
These things should be kept in mind when next we hear it said that the social ills of today can be explained by reference to loss of faith in the traditional institutions of moral authority. This is the reverse of the truth and an insult to the victims of an unforgiveable sin.

robindch

Thirty years ago today, Annie Lovett, a 15-year-old girl gave birth on her own to a boy in a grotto in Granard, Co Longford. Within hours, both were dead.

Gay Byrne, in probably his finest hour, chose to devote one episode of his radio show to reading out the letters he'd received from women who'd been in similar situations. It's harrowing stuff.

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/the-ann-lovett-letters-sorrow-shame-anger-and-indignation-1.1673920

Sarky

F*ck me, those extracts are harrowing reading. There's an awful lot of the '80's I must have shielded from. Or that the locals Just Didn't Talk About.

Cabaal

robindch wrote: »

Gay Byrne, in probably his finest hour, chose to devote one episode of his radio show to reading out the letters he'd received from women who'd been in similar situations. It's harrowing stuff.

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/the-ann-lovett-letters-sorrow-shame-anger-and-indignation-1.1673920

It really is upsetting stuff to read,
Countless people's lives ruined because of this backwards ****ed up way of thinking when it came to unmarried girls/women and pregnancy.

So much suffering caused by it :mad:

Sarky

But they weren't misogynists and they'll sue you if you say it.

robindch

Sarky wrote: »

F*ck me, those extracts are harrowing reading. There's an awful lot of the '80's I must have shielded from. Or that the locals Just Didn't Talk About.

Both, I'd say.

In my own school, a friend of mine who did history, tells of the day following Lovett's death, when the history teacher, a monk and priest himself, arrived into the class as usual, sat down, abandoned his class plan immediately and delivered a stinging rebuke to the church and the country which he remembers to this day. I remember speaking with the same monk perhaps 15 years later about Lovett and it was the only time in the 35 years I knew him that I'd seen him entirely lose his cool, urbane and very generous demenour.

Cabaal

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/documentary-podcast-letter-ann-lovett-gay-byrne-granard-tribune.html

Documentary from 1990's about the letters, they are going to read them out again tomorrow at 6pm

http://www.thejournal.ie/rte-to-rebroadcast-ann-lovett-letters-1292348-Jan2014/