Irish = Joke

themole

Wez wrote:

I'm not saying you're completely wrong altogether, just they seemed to be bad examples..

Possibly

I was more trying to get across the idea that not everything we learn can be seen a directly applicable to our everyday lives. But you cannot underestimate the advantage of knowledge. You can't always appreciate it when you are being "forced" to learn something.

Wez wrote:

I do think that if Irish was a choice it would do better.. I like doing irish, but the way it's done is a joke..

I would agree that the system needs to be radically changed.

whassupp2

I dont think the structure of the leaving cert can change until matriculation requirements chane. For exampe i hate french. its not compulsory but in order to get in to any university (except UL I think) in this country i must pass it. The same can be said for irish, english and maths. People entering fifth year should not be forced to do any one subject but should be made aware of the consequences of not picking it. I have no problem with college requirments if those requirements are directly related to the course. eg. maths for engineering but who needs french for engineering really???? (i also not the whole possibility of studyin and workin abroad)

themole

whassupp2 wrote:

People entering fifth year should not be forced to do any one subject but should be made aware of the consequences of not picking it. I have no problem with college requirments if those requirements are directly related to the course. eg. maths for engineering but who needs french for engineering really???? (i also not the whole possibility of studyin and workin abroad)

The problem is people change their minds.

Thats why the current system is so open.

whassupp2

themole wrote:

The problem is people change their minds.

Thats why the current system is so open.

I realise that but you have a very good idea if you hate a subject such as irish after junior cert. you have no intention of ever going near a course relating to irish and have no desire to follow it to LC. then wjhy should you be forced to do it????

By the way i think irish should be compulsory to Junior Cert and optional for LC.

Ballerina

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

Now here's your problem in a nutshell: you're saying that people should be FORCED to learn it. Has such a tactic ever worked? What's worng with getting people to choose it for themselves?

no no you dont get my point.i went to the gaeltacht and was never forced to learn it but grew to love it and now im practically fluent (and damn proud:D ) what im saying is there are SO many ways to teach people a language but the department have got it all wrong when it comes to irish


this is a bit of a sticky subject that we're never all going to agree on so theres not really much point to this thread...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

themole wrote:

How many people use history, english literature, higher level mathematics, .....

Ok, firstly.... Read. Read my post. Read your reply. See if you notice a connection between the two, because I didn't.

Secondly, YOUR point: People use these subjects more than they use Irish. Completely unrelated to my original point, but you asked.

Thirdly, MY point: If you want people to learnt it, allow they to enjoy it by choosing it. Don't teach them to hate it by forcing it.

whassupp2

Ballerina wrote:

no no you dont get my point.i went to the gaeltacht and was never forced to learn it but grew to love it and now im practically fluent (and damn proud:D ) what im saying is there are SO many ways to teach people a language but the department have got it all wrong when it comes to irish


this is a bit of a sticky subject that we're never all going to agree on so theres not really much point to this thread...

I agree. like irish too but SEC (aka Mary Hanafin) have it all wrong

GrumPy

themole wrote:

I am really rather ashamed of the fact that my Irish is ****.

Not gonna be ashamed myself buddy, I'd rather be able to speak russian or japanese ffs,m because at least then I could use them :rolleyes: How many people speak japanese? how many still speak Irish? I rest my case. Irish is dead, after junior cert level it should be optional.

melekalikimaka

NADA wrote:

YOu see that's the problem. Most people have realised that it is not there language and don't want it. Do don't force it on them. It's the same as forcing us to do Japanese really.

Its the same as Japanese??? Good thing deabating isn't mandatory eh?

You'll regret not learning it in years to come I assure you, it's our heritage, it's our own language, you claim that Irish isn't and Irishmans language makes no sense, it may not be our first spoken language but its our countries native language and well in the end its your choice to dismiss it but I guess thats your choice, alot of my friends were of the same mentaility and regret it now

melekalikimaka

themole wrote:

How many people use history, english literature, higher level mathematics, .....

any engineering course in the country, has higer level maths as a requirement(bar one or two), define your understanding of the term 'use'?

layke

Back when I did the LC in 2000, I didn't even go to my Irish exam because I knew i'd fail. God I hated being force fed that tripe since I was a nipper.

Looking back, I am know in a nice comfy job that pays well, Irish has never been or never will be a factor in my life. The only time I have ever felt bad about not knowing some is when i'm on hols and some one asks me to speak a bit of it.

Oh and as for everyone leaving after 30 mins, people have been doing that since my day. The level of Irish had slowly and surely been getting worse over the years and hopefully one day a minister will have the balls to stop all the compulsary lark.

themole

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

Ok, firstly.... Read. Read my post. Read your reply. See if you notice a connection between the two, because I didn't.

Secondly, YOUR point: People use these subjects more than they use Irish. Completely unrelated to my original point, but you asked.

Thirdly, MY point: If you want people to learnt it, allow they to enjoy it by choosing it. Don't teach them to hate it by forcing it.

melekalikimaka wrote:

any engineering course in the country, has higer level maths as a requirement(bar one or two), define your understanding of the term 'use'?

Sometimes it is better for you to learn something, regardless of your opinions on the subject.

Most people will not argue that say, Maths is important.

But when it comes to other subjects/topics that are just as important, but maybe less "practical" there is less consensus.

I beleive that subjects such as History, English and Irish are worthy of study even if you will not use them.

You have to decide what the leaving cert is supposed to be.

Is it a state exam which gives some indications of you level of learning ,or is it an "entrance" exam to college.

It is trying to server both purposes. That is why it has some stuff which you can argue you will never need, ie Irish, or higher level maths if you are not going to college.

It comes down to this. Sometimes you have to "force" people to do certain things otherwise they won't out of pure lazyness. In this case, Irish as a subject.

melekalikimaka

themole wrote:

Is it a state exam which gives some indications of you level of learning ,or is it an "entrance" exam to college.

its an entrance exam to college, i don't think it was ever meant as an idication of your level of learning no way can a 3 hour exam evaluate someone like that, its how much stuff copy from books(english is an exeption obviously)

themole

I would just like to give a short explaination of my views on the current subject.

I am crap at languages.

I did pass Irish and French for my leaving cert.

At the time, 1999, if I had had my way the only subjects I would have done would have been Maths, Physics, Chemistry and Mechanical Drawing.

I went on to do Electronic and Computer Engineering in NUIG. During this time I felt people doing arts were wasting their time on a "crap" degree with no use.

I am currently doing a PhD in Computer Science in UCD.

My views have changed since my since secondary school and alod since my early days in college.

I am now of the view that the other subjets studied during the leaving cert were indeed of value. Even Irish which I hated and was crap at. I am still glad I was forced to do it, becasue if given the choice I wouldn't have done it. So I am glad for what little Irish I have now.

I have also changed my attitude towards Arts and I am getting more interested in History, particularly Irish history. I also would like to improve my Irish.

So, thats where my views come from

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

themole wrote:

Sometimes it is better for you to learn something, regardless of your opinions on the subject.

Most people will not argue that say, Maths is important.

But when it comes to other subjects/topics that are just as important, but maybe less "practical" there is less consensus.

I beleive that subjects such as History, English and Irish are worthy of study even if you will not use them.

You have to decide what the leaving cert is supposed to be.

Is it a state exam which gives some indications of you level of learning ,or is it an "entrance" exam to college.

It is trying to server both purposes. That is why it has some stuff which you can argue you will never need, ie Irish, or higher level maths if you are not going to college.

It comes down to this. Sometimes you have to "force" people to do certain things otherwise they won't out of pure lazyness. In this case, Irish as a subject.

Your initial post spoke of practicallity. You used the word 'use'.

Also, the leaving cert is neither an indication of learning or an entrance exam. I know hundreds of very intelligent people, but not nessecarily intellectual. What about social intennigence? How does the leaving indicate that?

All subjects are worthy of study, but on an equal basis. Why is Irish mandadtory post JC and not English? History? Or art?

The idea that you have to force someone into learning something is offensive and wrong. Irrespective of lazyness or other excuses, do you really think something worthwhile is going to be achived by duress?

My views come from eperience as well.
They tried it on me, I rebelled. Like many others. I spoke little or no Irish and am proud of it. Proiud of having stood up to someone who told me I should be forced to do something, not doing it, and still tyurning out ok. My little way of saying FUCK them. They are wrong.

Feral Mutant

Out of about 80 or 90 people in my year 8 did higher level irish and 7 stayed till the end.
I personally don't like the language and probably will never use it again, odds are cos it's compulsary.
People are contrary like that. It's the same with voting, practicing religion . . . etc. Tell someone they can't do something and they'll die for the right to do it. Tell someone they can do something if they want and they probably won't bother.

themole

melekalikimaka wrote:

its an entrance exam to college, i don't think it was ever meant as an idication of your level of learning no way can a 3 hour exam evaluate someone like that, its how much stuff copy from books(english is an exeption obviously)

If you go to college then yes it acts like an entrance exam.

But if you don't go to college or persue any other form of higher learning it is the end of your education. In this case it is an indication of what you have learned.

themole

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

Your initial post spoke of practicallity. You used the word 'use'.

I was alluding to the fact that not all knowledge finds a practical application for all poeple.

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

What about social intennigence? How does the leaving indicate that?

It doesn't. If they can come up with a way of testing that then i'm sure one day there will be a test on it.

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

All subjects are worthy of study, but on an equal basis. Why is Irish mandadtory post JC and not English?

As far as i'm aware English is still madatory.

NADA

The point of that post is that Irish is not our native language. Yeah we live in ireland but English is my mother tongue and always will be.

Conor h

Anybody who thinks learning their native language shouldn't be cumpolsory needs to seriously consider what they're saying!

leeroybrown

themole wrote:

Sometimes it is better for you to learn something, regardless of your opinions on the subject.

I fully agree with this statement but there is a reason why there is a defined core Leaving Cert curriculum and that is to teach people core skills that are useful to many people. People should not be forced to learn something that only has practical use to a very small minority.

Leaving aside the Literary element the LC English curriculum develops important language skills in the areas of interpreting and answering properly. These are invaluable to many people in education, work and in everyday life. Maths are hugely important to many people in education and work and core mathematical skills are used by everyone. Conversely, Irish's main use is a barrier to prevent those who don't have it from getting many state jobs. Some do use Irish daily in education or work but they are the small minority. Any other skills you could learn from it are already covered elsewhere and are not hampered by the same apathy and poor tuition.

Personally speaking I would like to see Irish removed from the list of mandatory subjects and the requirement for it removed also. I would then like to see it added to the list of acceptable EU languages for college matriculation in all the NUI colleges (with the exception of language courses with real requirements).

leeroybrown

Conor h wrote:

Anybody who thinks learning their native language shouldn't be cumpolsory needs to seriously consider what they're saying!

Irish is not my native language. I'm an English speaking native of Ireland. I was born in an English speaking area and have always lived in English speaking areas. My parents were English speakers, my family are English speakers and my friends are predominantly English speakers.

The same can be said for the majority of Irish citizens.

Faerie

Conor h wrote:

Anybody who thinks learning their native language shouldn't be cumpolsory needs to seriously consider what they're saying!

Maybe some people have no interest in their heritage - I for one have no interest in my Irish heritage, I'm more interested in my other roots. You shouldn't force your interests on other people. Besides, most people would be far more interested in Irish if it wasn't compulsory and they chose it. And particularly if the course made any sense! What's the point in having to learn off loads of poems and crap? Speaking the language would be more beneficial.

melekalikimaka

leeroybrown wrote:

Irish is not my native language. I'm an English speaking native of Ireland. I was born in an English speaking area and have always lived in English speaking areas. My parents were English speakers, my family are English speakers and my friends are predominantly English speakers.

The same can be said for the majority of Irish citizens.

how can a foreign language be your native language?

themole

leeroybrown wrote:

Irish is not my native language. I'm an English speaking native of Ireland. I was born in an English speaking area and have always lived in English speaking areas. My parents were English speakers, my family are English speakers and my friends are predominantly English speakers.

The same can be said for the majority of Irish citizens.

That may be true.

But we are all the poorer for it.

I for one have grown tired of going to other countries and being called English or American.

melekalikimaka

Faerie wrote:

Besides, most people would be far more interested in Irish if it wasn't compulsory and they chose it

cos all kids are rebels like that :rolleyes:

Conor h

leeroybrown wrote:

Irish is not my native language. I'm an English speaking native of Ireland. I was born in an English speaking area and have always lived in English speaking areas. My parents were English speakers, my family are English speakers and my friends are predominantly English speakers.

The same can be said for the majority of Irish citizens.

Same situation for me.I fail to see your point.Every person born in Ireland should study it in school.IMO.;)

BMH

NADA wrote:

The point of that post is that Irish is not our native language. Yeah we live in ireland but English is my mother tongue and always will be.

Read the Constitution.

Your initial post spoke of practicallity. You used the word 'use'.

Also, the leaving cert is neither an indication of learning or an entrance exam. I know hundreds of very intelligent people, but not nessecarily intellectual. What about social intennigence? How does the leaving indicate that?

All subjects are worthy of study, but on an equal basis. Why is Irish mandadtory post JC and not English? History? Or art?

The idea that you have to force someone into learning something is offensive and wrong. Irrespective of lazyness or other excuses, do you really think something worthwhile is going to be achived by duress?

My views come from eperience as well.
They tried it on me, I rebelled. Like many others. I spoke little or no Irish and am proud of it. Proiud of having stood up to someone who told me I should be forced to do something, not doing it, and still tyurning out ok. My little way of saying **** them. They are wrong.

Proud of turning your nose up on the culture that hundreds of thousands fought and died for? Proud of dismissing the one thing that makes Ireland unique? Proud of acting like a 12 year old rebelling because you have to do something you don't want to?

Your whole life will be full of being told to do things, and having to do them, get used to it.

Faerie

melekalikimaka wrote:

cos all kids are rebels like that :rolleyes:

No, but I personally get pissed off with all these people forcing me to do something I don't want to do just because THEY believe that Irish is important and Irish heritage should be important to everyone. I don't, I think it's a joke of a language - I mean De Ocsaid Carbon? Does someone actually sit down and just make up these words?

melekalikimaka

aye i agree, i'd have expected this in the JC threads not here tho, i assume someone didnt do history, thats the only explaination