Irish = Joke

Muiriosa

DemonOfTheFall wrote:

I don't see why I should have to spend thousands of hours of valuable class time learning a dead language which is kept on life support by "Up the RA" types.

That's not really true at all. If it was a language kept alive on the support of "up the ra" peoplem it would have been dead long ago.

Despite the critisism of the new course, the education system is keeping Irish alive, how well it's doing that is debatable.

It's very easy, if the focus is changed more to the spoken word in primary school we could have huge improvements in the system. Children are more receptive to language at an early age and that's the time it should be taught really well. I'd almost put any money on it saying we'd see drastic results within 10 years.

It's sad to see so many walk out so early today, the language is dying a slow death. Changes need to be made. Enda Kenny made some interesting points about making it a choice for the leaving. It just could work, you know.

DonaldDuck

DemonOfTheFall wrote:

I don't see why I should have to spend thousands of hours of valuable class time learning a dead language which is kept on life support by "Up the RA" types.

The ironic thing is those people are usually the foundation level ones as well.

I dislike Irish greatly as a subject(as pass),I did enjoy the oral however.I left after exactly 1hour on paper 2,not because I was finished in one hour,because I got bored of looking at the wall after I finished in 40minutes.(Could've finished earlier but I put effort into stretching the lenght of my answers)
Irish got no study from me for either paper,firstly because I had honours maths the same day and secondly I'd be happier studying for another exam.

And to BMH(sorry if this is wrong,just from memory). Of the MANDATORY SUBJECTS (Maths,English and Irish),Irish is the least useful of all 3.
No explanations needed for english-The paper 2 can bea rgued as un needed,but as a subject its useful for developing writing skills.
Maths,well everythign revolves around maths now.
It's stupid to try and argue with someone and ask them to say 7 subjects that are useful,when you get to CHOOSE them.Ill list some for you now

Geography,since the new course you can learn about cultures,could be very useful for anyone working or staying abroad in the future

Spanish,extremly useful language and is widely spoken

Physics,how do things work?Why do they work

Business,Allows you to learn the basics of the working world

Home Ec,will help you greatly.Help your ability to take care of yourself in the future as well

Then add your two compulsory subjects:

Maths,extremly useful for anyone looking to be involved in the science or engineering part of the work force

English.

leeroybrown

DemonOfTheFall wrote:

I don't see why I should have to spend thousands of hours of valuable class time learning a dead language which is kept on life support by "Up the RA" types.

While I've already outlined above that I'd rather see Irish being optional on the LC (along with some proper restructuring of it's tuition at all levels) I have to disagree with your reasoning. Firstly, Irish isn't a dead language as there are still a reasonable number of native speakers and the language is still evolving. Latin for example is dead. Secondly, in my experience many of the core supporters and proponents of the Irish language do so because of a genuine interest in the language, our heritage and the fact that it is their way of life not because they're 'Up the RA' types. Theres nothing wrong with someone being a peaceful democratic republican.

Assmaster_Kronk

Its so rediculous how bad we are at irish!! I went to france last year for a french course, and got talkin to plenty of people from around the world. They had all been learnin french and english for 4 years.........and were almost fluent in both. How de hell is the education system so bad in irish that you can study a language for TEN YEARS and still be horrible at it. I mean just think of how many irish classes you've had since you started school!! Are we just that slow??:p

YeAh!

Assmaster_Kronk wrote:

Its so rediculous how bad we are at irish!! I went to france last year for a french course, and got talkin to plenty of people from around the world. They had all been learnin french and english for 4 years.........and were almost fluent in both. How de hell is the education system so bad in irish that you can study a language for TEN YEARS and still be horrible at it. I mean just think of how many irish classes you've had since you started school!! Are we just that slow??:p

I know exactly what you mean. In the hotel I work in there are Polish, Spanish, Estonians and loads other nationalities. They all obviously speak their own language and English as well. I mean, not a hope could i have a conversation with a person in Irish, even after doing honours Irish for the LC. Its a complete JOKE!

BMH

Assmaster_Kronk wrote:

Its so rediculous how bad we are at irish!! I went to france last year for a french course, and got talkin to plenty of people from around the world. They had all been learnin french and english for 4 years.........and were almost fluent in both. How de hell is the education system so bad in irish that you can study a language for TEN YEARS and still be horrible at it. I mean just think of how many irish classes you've had since you started school!! Are we just that slow??:p

Yeah, I always wondered about how Europeans pcik up English so well. I guess they get subjected to Enlgish media though, we get Ros na Rún...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

BMH wrote:

Yeah, I always wondered about how Europeans pcik up English so well. I guess they get subjected to Enlgish media though, we get Ros na Rún...

More cause for usage. I taught English in Denmark for a while and the kids were genuinely interested in the langauge. That, in a nutshell, is the difference.

melekalikimaka

i think the issue is the pass course is very boring, compared to the honours, i had a look at the stuff you do, its primary school stuff. the honours course has play/history of the language and much more interest pros and poetry. all these people saying i dont care bout english will be the ones trying to string a sentance of it together in 5 years time when they're in another country trying to convince someone your not another brit, it may not be as useful as french or spanish but its something to be proud of, keeping the language of your ancestors going is a great achievement, especially considering its a 'dying' language

whassupp2

melekalikimaka wrote:

i think the issue is the pass course is very boring, compared to the honours, i had a look at the stuff you do, its primary school stuff. the honours course has play/history of the language and much more interest pros and poetry.

The issue is both courses. The honours course is more boring than pass because they have to do the same shíte as pass plus more. The pros and poetry are not interesting. theyre boring and too difficult. we need to concentrate mor on orals, creative irish writing, essays, comprehensions etc...

nedward

It's a cultural subject, like, say Classics. Stair and Filiocht are meant to provide young people with Irish culture. But you can't force culture on teenagers, which is why it is failing.

For example, how many of ye have watched TnaG recently? Youth-focused programmes, bit of sport, Ros na Run, Aoife Ni Thuaraisg. Yet Irish forced on you in the classroom is repellent. Put Sharon Ni Bheolain on the course, IMO. And get rid of Uirchill an Chreagain and An Mhathair.

Ther's a willingness to learn and speak Irish out there that the Department just haven't tapped.

whassupp2

howya ed?

nedward

Awright Liam

Mordecai

That's the way languages work, borrowings etc. Would you sneer if the French or German for carbon dioxide was similar to the English? Accepted, some Irish borrowings are terrible afflictions to the language but that is due to laziness or ignorance. Irish is a rich language in itself, but unfortunately a lot of people resort to taking English words wholesale into Irish, neglecting perfect Irish words.

The whole argument of "bleedin' Irish poetry is useless" is similar to the "bleedin' poetry is useless" debate. How many of you believe that we shouldn't study poetry in English? The idea behind it is that at a certain level of language-learning, you have to study the idiomatic, figurative and metaphorical usage of the language. Why we do it in Irish is that after doing it from Junior Infants (or low babies down the country, ha), it is presumed that our level of language is sufficiently high to undetake study of the literature, aside from the cultural, heritage reasons of course. This presumption is a mistake, obviously.

I think it is unfair to force people to do Irish Literature if they do not want to. Irish should be split in two, a compulsory communication subject, oral and aural basically, and an optional literature or advanced Irish subject. Then, people wouldn't have this bitter hatred of Irish because they were forced to study "bleedin' poetry" which did not interest them at all or was above their level.

caesar

Mordecai wrote:

Irish should be split in two, a compulsory communication subject, oral and aural basically, and an optional literature or advanced Irish subject.

I said something like that in my oral when i was asked if i liked irish but i didn't mention anything about the compulsoriness of it.

dermo88

1. A lot of it is dependent on the teacher.
2. I have found that the standard of Irish amongst students in terms of grammatical knowledge was at its best in 5th and 6th class PRIMARY school. After that it deteriorated.
3. There is a lack of integration between the course offered at Primary Level and Secondary School.

Serious reform of the curriculum is required, and it should be taught like a modern European language. For the Ordinary level, concentrate on the standard of writing, and on grammar. For Higher level, emphasis on the artistic and literature side.

Otherwise we will face a situation where Irish will disappear of the course like Latin. Latin was commonly on offer on the Leaving Cert until the early 1970's, and look at how many are learning Latin today?

The very reason for the decline of Latin, and indeed of Greek, was the priority given towards literature, poetry and texts, which did nothing to arrest its decline. If a language continues to dwell in the glories of its past, then it is doomed to become part of the past. Everything with the current state of the Irish language points towards that.

Making it part of the future should be a goal. Making it relevant. It can be revived, it just needs imagination. Discount holidays in the Gaeltacht might be a start, not just for kids, but Adults as well.

YeAh!

Actually I think you've hit the nail in the head. The only way to get Irish into people is when they are young in primary school. My teachers in primary school concentrated little on teaching us Irish so by the time I got the secondary i was f*cked. Yet those from the local area who went to and Irish speaking primary school were fluent in Irish and maintained this fluency throughout their secondary level education.

2dizzylizzie

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

Your initial post spoke of practicallity. You used the word 'use'.

Also, the leaving cert is neither an indication of learning or an entrance exam. I know hundreds of very intelligent people, but not nessecarily intellectual. What about social intennigence? How does the leaving indicate that?

All subjects are worthy of study, but on an equal basis. Why is Irish mandadtory post JC and not English? History? Or art?

The idea that you have to force someone into learning something is offensive and wrong. Irrespective of lazyness or other excuses, do you really think something worthwhile is going to be achived by duress?

My views come from eperience as well.
They tried it on me, I rebelled. Like many others. I spoke little or no Irish and am proud of it. Proiud of having stood up to someone who told me I should be forced to do something, not doing it, and still tyurning out ok. My little way of saying FUCK them. They are wrong.

Why is it then that you did learn english and math? you are also "forced" to learn these as well as a third language?

It is true to say though that the course it laughable, i did higher level, and expect to do well in the exam an this is simply because i got an excellent basis in irish by attending an all irish primary school for only a few short years: senior infants- 3rd class. the problem mainly lies in the way irish is thought at a national school level, if a better standered was attened at a young age then the language would be far easyer at a later stage. In regards to this the reason that the higher course is especially considered so difficult, is that it is examined as though it is our fist language which for many people this is simply not the case, it is almost identical to the english exam, except harder, longer and with some "history of irish" thrown in to really annoy people!

i personaly love irish, but in the last year preparing for the exam have found it difficult to keep this love alive, and that wasnt because of the course, but because our old teacher transfered to a diffrent school, and our new one spent the year telling us how we were all crap and going to fail, she succeded in emptying the class, we began with 12 people doing honours out of a year of 26(4 of which are exempt from irish anyway), which is a large percentage, and ended the year with only 4 of us acctualy sitting the honours paper!!??? is there not a major indication in how the negative attitudes of teachers when teaching the language is acctually a major factor in peoples oppinions of the language? Why do they bother to teach it at all if they hate it so much? they only end up spreading their hate and getting other people to hate the language too!!???

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

2dizzylizzie wrote:

Why is it then that you did learn english and math? you are also "forced" to learn these as well as a third language?

Agreed. By the time you hit Junior Cert, you should have enough skills in both to be able to survive. There's no real point in makign anything mandatory after the Junior Cert.

and our new {teacher} spent the year telling us how we were all crap and going to fail... is there not a major indication in how the negative attitudes of teachers when teaching the language is acctually a major factor in peoples oppinions of the language? Why do they bother to teach it at all if they hate it so much? they only end up spreading their hate and getting other people to hate the language too!!???

Which is pretty much a nicer example of what happened to me when I was in 3rd - 6th class. I always say I hate the langage because I was taught to hate it. Gets a few frowns but, hey - it's the truth.

whassupp2

dermo88 wrote:

The very reason for the decline of Latin, and indeed of Greek, was the priority given towards literature, poetry and texts, which did nothing to arrest its decline. If a language continues to dwell in the glories of its past, then it is doomed to become part of the past. Everything with the current state of the Irish language points towards that.

Making it part of the future should be a goal. Making it relevant. It can be revived, it just needs imagination. Discount holidays in the Gaeltacht might be a start, not just for kids, but Adults as well.

SDpot on and that ivolves getting rid of stair, irelevant poetry (such as uircheall an chreagain for example) and making it more interesting in general whilst maintaining the current high standard required to acheive good grades.

melekalikimaka

whassupp2 wrote:

SDpot on and that ivolves getting rid of stair, irelevant poetry (such as uircheall an chreagain for example) and making it more interesting in general whilst maintaining the current high standard required to acheive good grades.

latin is a amazing subject, basis of nearly every european language, if you have the oppertunity do, it makes every language easier

Mordecai

I think the reason for the decline of Latin and Greek was due to universities dropping them as required subjects for entry, not the focus on literature, which has been the focus for a thousand years.

CrimE

I had been doing honours up until the leaving but dropped down just beforehand. The standard of the ordinary level paper is shocking. Exam finished at 3.50 and I was sitting at home at 2.30, having done more than what is required. About 5 people of the 80 in my year did honours. Irish is becoming a joke.

Ace7

Lets discuss Welsh language revival. They have had a lot more success there, but nobody really explains why.

I've heard the Welsh wanted to revive it, and thus it has. Well, why do they want to revive it and the Irish don't?

Are the Welsh stupid to revive it and for wanting to revive it? Of what use is Welsh? Seems like many of the knocks against Irish could also be said about Welsh. Welsh is not an international language. Is reviving Welsh a waste of tax payers money?

Welsh is not spoken outside Wales, right? Like Irish, Welsh is more a 'rural' language rather than the language of industry/business/commerce. English is a much more useful language and more widely spoken than Welsh. etc. etc.

Maybe Welsh is taught better than Irish is. But I've heard that for English speakers, Welsh - like Irish - is still a hard language to learn.

How many school children will use Welsh after leaving school? Maybe not that many, same as with Irish. Maybe some view Welsh as a waste of time. But Welsh has somehow been revived.

I've heard that Welsh hadn't died out as much as Irish has, and so that made it easier to revive. But is that the whole story, or are there other reasons?

I'm sure there are some in Wales who view Welsh as an old, poor, backward, farming, type language. So it has had its opponents and obstacles. And yet it has still been revived. So whats been the difference between Wales and Ireland, between the Welsh people and the Irish people, and between the two celtic languages?

I think it would be great if a lot of people weighed in with their thoughts on this. Thanks.

Imallin9989

Well I think the irish language is very important. Anyone I know who have reached a certain standard and can speak it to some degree feel this way.

Its all about getting children to speak it. I think young people want to speak irish

-Els-

I think one thing to remember before we talk about Irish not being Mandatory anymore is that first at Primary Level there was a change in the curriculum 5 or so years ago wich put much more emphasis on speaking etc.. and should make a difference. So the kids who have really benefited form this new curriculum wont be doing exams for few years. And the curriculum is changing (if only a little bit) I think in 5 years the Oral will be worth 40% for the LC (I cant remember exactly) and there will be other changes. I think people should at least wait and see if this makes any kind of a change to the standard of Irish.

I think the main problem with irish is that there isn't enough emphasis on basic skills, like having a simple conversation, especially for JC. Like in the JC they expect you to discuss poetry and yet a lot of people give you directions to their house in Irish! I got an A in my JC simply because I have a really good teacher who has worked out basically how to learn off your entire paper, including the scéal and poetry etc.. my friend had been tot he gaeltacht for 4 years before her JC and was basically fluent, she had a different teacher and just learned phrases and she only got a B, even though she has a way higher standard of Irish than me!

It does kind of look like Irish is making a comeback in that gaelscoils are very popular and there is a big demand for them, I know aswell that Cumann na Bhian have an irish club in rathfarnam that has a really long waiting list of people who wan to go. But I know a lot of parents are only sending their children to gaelscoils because they dont want them going to school with foreign nationals (not all, but some).

I cant see the government ever getting rid of Irish as a mandatory subject though, for economic reasons mainly. I think it could get rid of many of the Gaeltacht areas. I was in the Ghaoth Dobhair in the Gaeltacht and my teacher was saying that the main source of income was from the Irish colleges, between the Bean an Tí's and the shops and bus drivers etc... If Irish was not mandatory not as many students would go to the Gaeltacht and so some would close down eventually and more people in the area would have to go on Social welfare or move to the city/town where they would probably stop speaking Irish.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Ace7 wrote: »

Lets discuss Welsh language revival. They have had a lot more success there, but nobody really explains why.

I've heard the Welsh wanted to revive it, and thus it has. Well, why do they want to revive it and the Irish don't?

Are the Welsh stupid to revive it and for wanting to revive it? Of what use is Welsh? Seems like many of the knocks against Irish could also be said about Welsh. Welsh is not an international language. Is reviving Welsh a waste of tax payers money?

Welsh is not spoken outside Wales, right? Like Irish, Welsh is more a 'rural' language rather than the language of industry/business/commerce. English is a much more useful language and more widely spoken than Welsh. etc. etc.

Maybe Welsh is taught better than Irish is. But I've heard that for English speakers, Welsh - like Irish - is still a hard language to learn.

How many school children will use Welsh after leaving school? Maybe not that many, same as with Irish. Maybe some view Welsh as a waste of time. But Welsh has somehow been revived.

I've heard that Welsh hadn't died out as much as Irish has, and so that made it easier to revive. But is that the whole story, or are there other reasons?

I'm sure there are some in Wales who view Welsh as an old, poor, backward, farming, type language. So it has had its opponents and obstacles. And yet it has still been revived. So whats been the difference between Wales and Ireland, between the Welsh people and the Irish people, and between the two celtic languages?

I think it would be great if a lot of people weighed in with their thoughts on this. Thanks.

Jesus, I juuuust read an idential post to this on a similar thread. There has been a glitch in the matrix.

KeyLimePie

right i had that huge "11 years of irish" post a while back but i must admit that i left each exam after 30 mins(but i got a c2 so who cares really) but it was cause i was doing ordinary and i would've loved to have done honours but the gap was just too big

but i still say start teaching irish like they do french with grammar and what not

PurpleFistMixer

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Jesus, I juuuust read an idential post to this on a similar thread. There has been a glitch in the matrix.

Yes, the person who dragged up this two year old thread also posted on the Gaeilge board... And they're clearly not a LC student if they live in the USA.

And as KeyLimePie mentioned, we already have a pretty long thread (which is not 2 years old, by the way) for discussing Irish.

Can we please stick to the most recent thread on a subject?

Ace7

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

Yes, the person who dragged up this two year old thread also posted on the Gaeilge board... And they're clearly not a LC student if they live in the USA.

And as KeyLimePie mentioned, we already have a pretty long thread (which is not 2 years old, by the way) for discussing Irish.

Can we please stick to the most recent thread on a subject?

I haven't posted much and I'm sorry if I broke with protocol, but I noticed the same thing (the Irish language) was a topic in several different forums. As such, I thought my post may have some relevance in each.

I didn't bother to search for and identify the 'newest' one, and figured that as long as people still wanted to discuss something it wouldn't really much matter when the last post had been made. Anyway, I stand corrected and I've taken your direction under advisement.

By the way, is it a requirement in here that someone has to be a LC student to discuss the LC? Suppose someone was raised in Ireland, took the LC, and then moved to the USA? What if someone currently happens to live and work in Colorado, but are thinking of moving themselves - and their schoolchildren - to Ireland? I think I had better now go and remove my location from my profile.

PurpleFistMixer

Sorry Ace7, you got me at a bad time. I saw someone cross-posting, I thought "great someone else advertising something", then I saw you'd dragged up an old thread on a topic that makes me angry, when we already had a recent enough thread on it... bad combination. I apologise for jumping at you (though it could have been a lot worse), but posting in the most recent thread is still generally the done thing. The people who contributed on this thread are probably long gone, and making me read another 120 posts of the same old debate is not appreciated. : p