Lampard and Gerrard too similar

Anam

PHB wrote:

England's problem is that Gerrard doesn't do DMC, because he attacks too much. He has had oppurtunities to reproduce his club form for England and has not.
e.g. in the first half vs. Paraguay he had 6 shots from outside the box, all over the bar. He got forward, got his chances, didn't produce.

As for the CL final, a year ago, and the FA Cup final, he was great there. No doubt about it. Gerrard plays different for club and country though, probably due to loving the club he plays for. Lampard on the other hand, is the same for club and country.

Aswell as that, let's look at some stats.

Lampard:
Prem: 16 goals
CL : 2 goals

Assists(Prem): 8

Gerrard:
Prem: 14 goals
CL: 0

Assists(Prem) : 6

Actim Ratings:

Dont think Gerrard got 14 pl goals

eirebhoy

PHB wrote:

Shown to be completely untrue.
Lampard's job is to score goals and create goals, he did that.

No it's not. He is playing as a central midfielder for England. We're not talking about Chelsea here. His job is to get stuck in as much as it is to create goals.

btw - I like the "watch more football" comment. I've seen more than enough of Lampard to be able to make a judgment.

Anam

Stekelly wrote:

Do I look like a bald middle aged swedish man? ( I might , but trust me, I dont) Only Sven can decide who he plays with and why (no ulrika jokes). He seems determind to play his best 11 players instead of what a real manager would do, which is play the best team. Sven picks his 11 players then worries about a system to fit them into, he's a joke of a manger. Thats the reason why Gerrard and Lampard both start, they are both the same type of player but someone has to do a defensive job in the middle. Lampard is incapable of itso it falls on Gerrard. It's a process of elimination brought on by svens retarded method of picking a team.




Why is it just pl goals? They play in more thanone competition you know. Gerrard scored more goals last season than lampard. If you want to strip out the games that Gerarrd scored in to suit your stats then so be it.

Lampard has got the record for goals scored by a midfielder in the prem,thats why.

I think league goals are worth more than goals against TNS tbh.

Guy:Incognito

PHB wrote:

England's problem is that Gerrard doesn't do DMC, because he attacks too much. He has had oppurtunities to reproduce his club form for England and has not.
e.g. in the first half vs. Paraguay he had 6 shots from outside the box, all over the bar. He got forward, got his chances, didn't produce.

As for the CL final, a year ago, and the FA Cup final, he was great there. No doubt about it. Gerrard plays different for club and country though, probably due to loving the club he plays for. Lampard on the other hand, is the same for club and country.

Aswell as that, let's look at some stats.

Lampard:
Prem: 16 goals
CL : 2 goals

Assists(Prem): 8

Gerrard:
Prem: 14 goals
CL: 0

Assists(Prem) : 6

Actim Ratings:


Ultimately, I think Lampard is a better AMC than Gerrard. You say you can't measure his preformance in terms of goals and assists? What else do you want from an attacking midfielder.

If you want to argue that Gerrard drags teams to victory, that's true for Liverpool, but not for England

Also, Gerrard's great preformances, i.e. CL final, came as part of a 3 man midfield, as the most attacking player.

Why are you only counting PL & CL goals? Do other comps not count? Gerrard scored 4 in the FA cup to Lampards 2. Cl qualifiers are goal saswell. Havnt checked the carling cup.

Superdub2 wrote:

While i think that Sven is a joke this is not a mess of his making! The all powerful English media and the public insist on Gerrard and Lamps in the same team and we have all seen in the past how those delusional ******** have tormented the poor souls who begged to disagree!

So whos fault is it that sven bows to the media? It's not any of ours. If he was strong, picked the right team and they were winning, the press would be happy for a bit. Also it's his last tournament, he has nothing to lose, so why not pick the right team?

eirebhoy

The fact that Gerrard is even so close to Lampard in goals and assists is excellent in itself considering the work Gerrard does outside of creating and scoring goals.

Anam

eirebhoy wrote:

The fact that Gerrard is even so close to Lampard in goals and assists is excellent in itself considering the work Gerrard does outside of creating and scoring goals.

Thats true,but Lampard had 6 more league goals than gerrard,which is a lot.

Guy:Incognito

Anam wrote:

Lampard has got the record for goals scored by a midfielder in the prem,thats why.

I think league goals are worth more than goals against TNS tbh.

Well if we're breaking it down, should it not then be broken down further and a scale of points be awarded to reflect who the goals were scored against in the league? what? no? that would be ridiculous? The fact is, Gerrard played in x amount of games this season and scored more than Lampard.

mike65

I knew this thread would go like this!

Its straightfoward really, if the muck and bullets are flying and you want a midfielder to dig you out Gerrard is your man. Lampard does well only cos he has protection behind him. Ask him to be a leader of men and he'll be second to Gerrard.

If Sven had balls he'd drop one or the other (pref Lampard) but he won't so England have a player who is'nt being used at anything like 100% effectivenes.

Mike.

KdjaCL

I reckon Gerrard a CMF but needs DMF beside him, Lampard is an AMF and needs 2 DMF to cover his naps mid game. Chelsea provide that for him, Gerrard will get stuck in but usually lunges in whereas a DMF will more than likly sheppard a player away or somewhere where they cant play the ball. If gerrard wins a tackle he instantly thinks they a man down and he in space and attacks, A DMF will look around for a more skilled player give it to them then drop back. At no point will the DMF think of venturing out of position. Gerrard be long gone Lampard doesnt tackle doesnt like getting his boots dirty.

They cant play together in a 442, they could in another sort of way but there would need to be a DMF to cover them.

Must be horrible to have such a selection problem, it is horrible when its done wrong.


kdjac

Anam

Stekelly wrote:

Well if we're breaking it down, should it not then be broken down further and a scale of points be awarded to reflect who the goals were scored against in the league? what? no? that would be ridiculous? The fact is, Gerrard played in x amount of games this season and scored more than Lampard.

You have to look at the quality of opposition,how many of Gerrards goals were against poor opposition like TNS?

Bottom line is Lampard still produces more as an AMF.

el rabitos

Anam wrote:

You have to look at the quality of opposition,how many of Gerrards goals were against poor opposition like TNS?

Bottom line is Lampard still produces more as an AMF.

what about the other bottom line where lampard has 200 million worth of players around him?

mike65

and they still ain't as good in midfield as Pool are!

Mike.

PHB

I didn't include CL or FA cause I didn't have the stats.

I purposfully didn't include the CL qualifiers because they were against ****e teams, if we include that, we might as well include Lampard's pre season goals, but that's just stupid and everybody knows it.

btw - I like the "watch more football" comment. I've seen more than enough of Lampard to be able to make a judgment.

Well you can't seem to read games at all then, look at Euro's 04, Lampard preformed, and he preformed when England needed him. Or perhaps you're just just ignoring it.

Gerrard is a great player, so is Lampard.
But they both play at their best as an AMC in a 3 man midfield, as the most attacking.
Sissisko - Alonso - Gerrard
Makelele - Essien - Lampard
Lampard is better at doing his job in that situation.

Anam

el rabitos wrote:

what about the other bottom line where lampard has 200 million worth of players around him?

Right and he warrants his selection in that side.In fact he is one of the most important players in that side.Have you seen the difference between Chelseas performances with and without Lampard?They cant cope without him,it just goes to show how Lampard is more than just his abundance of goals and assists.

Anam

mike65 wrote:

and they still ain't as good in midfield as Pool are!

Mike.

LMAO,you're joking right?

eirebhoy

England v Hungary
"Lampard - 6 - He was invisible on the field."

England v Poland
"Lampard - 8 (matchwinner)"

http://bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=253363
"Lampard seems to just vanish into thin air."

N.Ireland v England
"This was one of Lampard's quietest games for his country but he forced a great save from Taylor from 25 yards during the opening period of the second half."

Wales v England
"Lampard 5- Didn't influence the game at all"

Denmark v England
"Lampard (5) - anonymous"

England v Azerbaijan
"Lampard - 6 quiet game"
"Lampard - 7 almost scored on several occasions"

England v N.Ireland
"Lampard: 8.5- Good tackles, passing and nice goal"
"Lampard - 7 Not particularly impressive, but he did score"

Azerbaijan v England
Watched it and England were poor. Lampard played ahead of Jenas and Butt and was ok I suppose.

England v Wales
Can't find any ratings. Scored a goal.

Poland v England
"Lampard - 5 - very inneffective, kept getting caught on the ball."

Austria v England
Scored again.


If a goal every few games is good enough for you...:) I could do the same for Gerrard but I like Gerrard. plus we all know Gerrard is not a holding midfielder.

el rabitos

Anam wrote:

Right and he warrants his selection in that side.In fact he is one of the most important players in that side.Have you seen the difference between Chelseas performances with and without Lampard?They cant cope without him,it just goes to show how Lampard is more than just his abundance of goals and assists.

sound more like a piss poor manager to me

Anam

el rabitos wrote:

sound more like a piss poor manager to me

Yeah that Jose Mourinho guy,really clueless isnt he.

mike65

Anam wrote:

LMAO,you're joking right?

See FA Cup semi final for proof! (I conceed Maureen did Liverpool a favour).

Mike.

eirebhoy

PHB wrote:

Well you can't seem to read games at all then, look at Euro's 04, Lampard preformed

I thought he was pretty anonymous for the most part. You seem to suggest "performing" is scoring a goal but he's playing in central midfield, not up front.

But they both play at their best as an AMC in a 3 man midfield, as the most attacking.

I think Gerrard is better in the centre beside a holding midfielder playing box to box like the old Roy Keane.

el rabitos

Anam wrote:

Yeah that Jose Mourinho guy,really clueless isnt he.

well if losing any 1 player will make your team suffer to the extent u mentioned, then...yeah, sounds clueless to me.

Anam

mike65 wrote:

See FA Cup semi finals replay for proof! (I conceed Maureen did Liverpool a favour).

Mike.

No doubt Liverpool have one of the best midfields in Europe,but i still think Chelsea top them both individually and as a team of midfielders.

How about 4-1 at anfield for proof ;-)

At the end of the day it would take a very brave manager to drop a player of the quality of either Lampard or Gerrard and Sven is not that manager so we wont see it happen anyway.

adox

Just wondering how many of the Gerrard/Lampard opinions are coming from Liverpool/Chelsea supporters.

Not saying that theres anthing wrong with that,but it could theoretically lead to a biased opinion.:D

Anam

el rabitos wrote:

well if losing any 1 player will make your team suffer to the extent u mentioned, then...yeah, sounds clueless to me.

Oh come on,look at Barca without Ronaldinho or Liverpool without Gerrard,of course they will perform worse.Doesnt make Rijkard or Benitez clueless at all.

Superdub2

Anam wrote:

Thats true,but Lampard had 6 more league goals than gerrard,which is a lot.

are you serious?? a pittance when you consider their respective teams and their league positipons and strenghts

el rabitos

Anam wrote:

Oh come on,look at Barca without Ronaldinho or Liverpool without Gerrard,of course they will perform worse.Doesnt make Rijkard or Benitez clueless at all.

your the one making out chelsea would suffer to some massive extent

PHB

STOP THE PRESSES

eirebhoy has found past ratings, from the titantic source of

When Hell Unfreezes
BigSoccer Member

Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Club: The Spice Girls

All arguments are finished!!!!!

When Hell Unfreezes has weighed in!

What the hell was the point of that eirebhoy?

I thought he was pretty anonymous for the most part. You seem to suggest "performing" is scoring a goal but he's playing in central midfield, not up front.

I'm suggesting the goal of a player playing as the attacking midfielder in a CM partnership is to score and create goals yes, while getting back and tackling. He does exactly what he is told to do by Sven, and does it fantastically. The problem is with Sven, not with Lampard.

I think Gerrard is better in the centre beside a holding midfielder playing box to box like the old Roy Keane.

This is a common misconception. Roy Keane was a lot more defensive a player than Gerrard is.
Keane never had the range of passing, or even the technical ability of Gerrard. Keane did not play like Gerrard, Gerrard just has similar drive and determination.
Keane played with Scholes next to him!

When I think of Lampard I think of Scholes.
When I think of Reo-Coker I think of Keane
When I think of Gerrard I think of an inbetween, but closer to Scholes than Keane.

If Gerrard is like Keane, and Scholes is like Lampard, why don't England preform like United did with those two midfielders?
I'll tell ya why, because Keane is not like Gerrard.
Gerrard is more attacking than Keane, closer to Scholes.
Lampard is a bit, but not a lot, more attacking than Scholes.

Anam

el rabitos wrote:

your the one making out chelsea would suffer to some massive extent

Whats your point?

When lampard was missing at the end of the season chelsea lost both games.When Ronnie was missing from Barca they lost games.

Mourinho and Rijkaard both won their respective leagues with the latter winning the CL too.Are you trying to tell me that either are,as you put it "piss poor managers"?

el rabitos

Anam wrote:

Whats your point?

When lampard was missing at the end of the season chelsea lost both games.When Ronnie was missing from Barca they lost games.

Mourinho and Rijkaard both won their respective leagues with the latter winning the CL too.Are you trying to tell me that either are,as you put it "piss poor managers"?

i didnt bring up barca, u did. u suggested chelsea were screwed without lampard, i dont think barca are screwed without ronnie, liverpool certainly arent without gerrard.

Guy:Incognito

right, shut up the lot of you, The top scorer in international football ever ison the telly.

adox

Anam wrote:

Whats your point?

When lampard was missing at the end of the season chelsea lost both games.

I think that was more to do with the fact that they had already won the league rather than Lampard not being involved.

eirebhoy

PHB wrote:

If Gerrard is like Keane, and Scholes is like Lampard, why don't England preform like United did with those two midfielders?

First of all, with the exception of 1 season when both players were getting on, Man Utd always played Nicky Butt or someone similar. Why don't England perform? Because they don't play Nicky Butt or someone similar and Scholes would always put pressure on the opposition and wouldn't just stand around.

A 25 year old Roy Keane and a 25 year old Paul Scholes wouldn't work together either.

and btw, do you disagree with "When Hell Unfreezes"? Lampard was anonymous against Hungary as he usually is when he doesn't score.

Anam

adox wrote:

I think that was more to do with the fact that they had already won the league rather than Lampard not being involved.

Yeah thats a fair point,but they certainly look a different side.

Do you think that McClaren will drop Lampard or Gerrard?

Guy:Incognito

Anam wrote:

Yeah thats a fair point,but they certainly look a different side.

Do you think that McClaren will drop Lampard or Gerrard?

Nah. If he felt strongly about it he'd try to push it on sven now, which he more than likely doesnt

Lex Luthor

Anam wrote:

When lampard was missing at the end of the season chelsea lost both games.When Ronnie was missing from Barca they lost games.

Doesn't prove anything about the quality of the missing players but more of the lack of quality the team has without them...;)

Ok, can we all agree to disagree here?

Both cannot play together in the midfeild without a DM...FACT

Both are attacking midfielder...FACT

Its a tough choice as to who is better...FACT

England are lucky gits to have both of them

Both come up with their fair share of goals....Lampard probably shades it by a few each season, but probably due to the fact he takes Chelsea penalties.

Anam

Lex Luthor wrote:

Doesn't prove anything about the quality of the missing players but more of the lack of quality the team has without them...;)

Ok, can we all agree to disagree here?

Both cannot play together in the midfeild without a DM...FACT

Both are attacking midfielder...FACT

Its a tough choice as to who is better...FACT

England are lucky gits to have both of them

Both come up with their fair share of goals....Lampard probably shades it by a few each season, but probably due to the fact he takes Chelsea penalties.

I dont agree with your first point,but you're spot on with the rest.

iregk

I'd have to agree with all Lex points.

At club level Lampard plays great because he has Claude Mak beside him so Lamps can roam free and attack more. Gerrard plays great because he has Sissoko and Alonso to do this for him so he can go about his business.

At International level neither player has this and so they just don't go well together. I have to agree with Dumphy and Brady though in the studio at the weekend. Englands main problem is they have no playmaker. Cole is stuck out on the wing and where Alonso, Riquelme, take your pick from Brazil, Pirlo all do it for their countries England have nobody to sit in the middle and direct the play and create things. They will not win the world cup in their currnt form.

I said a long time ago either Gerrard or Lampard has to be dropped. Which one can be debated over until the cows come home.

Shaque attack

iregk wrote:

At International level neither player has this and so they just don't go well together. I have to agree with Dumphy and Brady though in the studio at the weekend. Englands main problem is they have no playmaker. Cole is stuck out on the wing and where Alonso, Riquelme, take your pick from Brazil, Pirlo all do it for their countries England have nobody to sit in the middle and direct the play and create things. They will not win the world cup in their currnt form.

agree 100%, thats why i really believe they should be playing a 4-5-1, it could help compensate for this.

as for lampard v gerrard.... almost everyone has said at one point or another that gerrard is a better overall player, and this is very true. so then why should the team be built around a player who is inferior? doesn't make sense to me. for my money gerrard has an extra dimension to his game that lampard doesn't have and that makes a massive difference when playing against the very best.

the highest level in european football is the champions league and thats where the two players should be compared.

Superdub2

Gerrard, GERRARD, GERRARD!!!!:mad:

mike65

Thats just embarrassing.

Mike.