Guantanamo Bay Escapes

Manic Moran

Hobbes wrote:

Considering the percentage of people innocent in Gitmo is running close to 50% of those that are detained and nearly everyone there is held without charges I think its a bit prudent to claim they are terrorists without actual proof to back it up.

I'm not entirely sure I see the correlation between a statistical claim of some 50% innocence with the subsequent clause in the same sentence about a lack of proof.

NTM

Hobbes

Manic Moran wrote:

I'm not entirely sure I see the correlation between a statistical claim of some 50% innocence with the subsequent clause in the same sentence about a lack of proof.

NTM

So you think that the Administration is releasing guilty people from Gitmo then? Clearly a policy of guiltly until proven innocent.

Manic Moran

Are you suggesting that if guilty that they should be held interminably?

Innocence is not the only reason to be released from Gitmo. A lack of benefit to continued detention might be another. (eg, the person in question might be a relatively small player in an organisation since eliminated).

NTM

Hagar

Hobbes wrote:

Its in the forum charter that you should supply them if someone asks (so they can see more details themselves). No biggie, although I don't know why Sand felt links needed to be added, its not like this is ultra secret news.

My apologies for inadvertantly breaching the charter.
I'll pay more attention next time.

Ping Chow Chi

Sand wrote:

Gitmo isnt all that different to any other prision. Everyone in it is innocent apparently.

most other prisions normally give you the common courtesy of actually charging you of a crime.

Hobbes

Manic Moran wrote:

Are you suggesting that if guilty that they should be held interminably?

No, I am saying they all should be charged with something or let go. They should not be imprisoned for 2-5 years without ever being charged before they say "Oops, looks like your not that important as we were lead to believe".

Innocence is not the only reason to be released from Gitmo. A lack of benefit to continued detention might be another.

So your saying that its fine to pick people off the street and hold them for years just to get some intel?

It would be funny if it wasn't so sad, but the US actually paid $2,000-$25,000 for each prisoner (a large number of them) because they told the Northern Alliance they would pay them for rounding up Taliban. Kept the streets clean of vagrants and strangers and they got paid for it.

Wolff

Hobbes wrote:

Like I said you seem think its ok to mistreat people if they aren't in our country?

I'd also recommend you go read up on the subject.

eh ? our country ???



Well in fairness the only reason its not a death camp is because the US administration haven't been able to get approval to put the gas chamber into the camp.

Who exactly approves the setting up of death camps - oh i remember - the ancient order of Zion i take it. that has to be one the daftest and misinformed things ever posted here.

As for the kids in the camp - boys aged between 13 and 16 what are they doing in the Taliban army in the first place they are deemed old enought to fight and die by their own people why dont you critisise that in the first place or are child soldiers ok by you.

as for reading up on the subject i suggest you get your facts straight - the US never recognised the Taliban as a legitimate government - the same people sheltering Bin Laden - why on earth would they - the 3 govs that did were surprise surprise

SAUDI ARABIA
UNITED ARAB EMERIATES
PAKISTAN

nobody else in the civilised world would recognise a govenment led by a bunch of pig ignorant religious nuts and halfwits - oh and there is no oil in afghanistan anyway.

all three really good breeding grounds for terrorists.........

gandalf

I notice that the Camp Commander has called this "an act of asymmetric warfare waged against us" does this mean they are prisoners of war then?

Also I notice a top US official has described the suicides of three detainees at the US base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, as a "good PR move to draw attention". I wonder will George W or Donald decide to do a PR Stunt like this it would sure be popular.

Oh Wolff that "bunch of pig ignorant religious nuts and halfwits" comment could be used to describe the current US administration as well Oh and Afghanistan is an important infrastucture conduit for the oil from the Caspian Sea (ie its about the pipeline!).

The US has lost this war on terror the minute they opened the Gitmo Concentration Camp, they changed their values exactly to what the extremists wanted. Predicatable.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5068606.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5069230.stm

Hobbes

Wolff wrote:

Who exactly approves the setting up of death camps

Learn to use the quoting.

Don't know what your going on about Zion for. The Army listed they were trying to build a Gas Chamber in Gitmo some years back. Its not like I am making this sh!t up (I wish I was)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2979076.stm

As for the kids in the camp - boys aged between 13 and 16 what are they doing in the Taliban army in the first place

If you bothered to do a bit of research you would know that there are reports of younger children then that there and no not every child there was fighting for the Taliban, some are there "To provide intelligence for the US Military".

nobody else in the civilised world would recognise a govenment led by a bunch of pig ignorant religious nuts and halfwits - oh and there is no oil in afghanistan anyway.

Why then did UNOCAL invite the Taliban for America? Oh right, it was to put an oil pipe through Afganistan. Also makes you wonder why the Northern Alliance offer amnesty to some Taliban to co-run the government. (probably for the reward).

Frederico

Sand wrote:

Of course not, but planning a simultaneous suicide with 2 others in a camp for captured terrorists with the obvious effort to stage a martyrdom coup (and lets face it, were talking about it and some people sound like they want to put them up there with Anne Frank) doesnt exactly sound abvoe suspicion, now does it?

Does it not occur to you that prehaps they commited simultaneous suicide to draw attention to the hideous conditions in Gitmo?

These people think they are the forgotten, left to rot in that place for eternity, and charged with nothing..

Gitmo is NOT about innocence or guilt, its there as a symbol, a symbol of Americas bullish power in the war on terror.. basically its like saying, look this is what we can do to you.

Gitmo itself is creating such anger around the world.. it obviously fuels terrorism.. even from a rightwing point of view it makes no sense.

For this idiot official to get up and say what he said, it just boggles belief, the propaganda just got so much more base.

BillyCom

Well, one blogger in Northern Ireland seems to be ecstatic about the sucicides in Guantanamo......

http://atangledweb.typepad.com/weblog/2006/06/suicide_a_pr_mo.html#comments

tallus

Is there a point to that post billycom?

Zebra3

America holds these people who it onced armed, trained and funded. Now it condemns them as murdering scum (hmm, Vietnam, Iraq, Panama, Chile) and people leap to their (America's) defence as if their moral guardians of the world.

Wolff

Hobbes

you need to start learing to tell the truth - the taliban may have been invited to UNALCO for tea but you stated they were officially recognised by US

Not True - not one ounce of truth

As for building a Gas Chamber at the camp - a 3 year old link with somebody perhaps considering building one - does not constitute a death camp.


and as I said before where are the children held in a specially constructed creche ?

Hobbes

Wolff wrote:

you need to start learing to tell the truth - the taliban may have been invited to UNOCAL for tea but you stated they were officially recognised by US

and I stand corrected.

As for building a Gas Chamber at the camp - a 3 year old link with somebody perhaps considering building one - does not constitute a death camp.

and if you bothered to actually read my earlier post I had said they tried to get it built.

and as I said before where are the children held in a specially constructed creche ?

Actually there is a blocked off section of the camp that the children are held in. You can call it a creche if it makes you feel better about it.

bonkey

Wolff wrote:

or are child soldiers ok by you.

It would seem that by saying children should not be treated like adults even if they were in the army, Hobbes is the one saying that treating child-soldiers as soldiers rather than as children is unacceptable.

You, on the other hand, seem to be suggesting that because they picked up (or were made pick up, or were alleged to have picked up) a gun, we can treat them the same as adult soldiers and not care that they are kids.

I just find it funny that he's the one saying its not acceptable they be held in the way they are, and your're attacking him for making this point....yet you suggest he is the one who is ok with the notion of child soldiers.

Wolff

emm no not saying that - saying they are probably better off in Guantanamo if they were child soldiers however unsatisfactory that is

and the fact noboby seems to care they were child soldiers in the first place

a misplaced sense of outrage - outrage they are locked up in Guantanamo but no outrage they were asked to die for Allah

Hobbes

bonkey wrote:

Hobbes is the one saying that treating child-soldiers as soldiers rather than as children is unacceptable.

Well to be fair, no one in the camp is being treated like a soldier. Otherwise they would have the right to a fair trial for example and as the war in Afganistan is over they could no longer be legally held as P.O.W.

btw some of the children released have detailed torture done on them. Good thing the US never signed up to "Declaration of the Rights of the Child".

and the fact noboby seems to care they were child soldiers in the first place

Did you know in Afganistan that children are allowed carry guns. Its part of thier culture.

Incidently how do you know the people being detained are soliders?

RedPlanet

Wolff wrote:

emm no not saying that - saying they are probably better off in Guantanamo if they were child soldiers however unsatisfactory that is

and the fact noboby seems to care they were child soldiers in the first place

a misplaced sense of outrage - outrage they are locked up in Guantanamo but no outrage they were asked to die for Allah

Were there child soldiers Wolff?
Why should we believe there were any children soldiers?

Wolff

Well Hobbes has helpfully pointed out its ok to be kid in Afghanistan and carry a weapon (its part of the culture) so thats ok, but its not ok to imprison them.

Which in a warped way is grand but getting back to the origional point that in countries where these lads came from - kids, women ,innocents are held every day and executed and nobody speaks out but because the US imprisons without trial a few extremists - everybody is up in arms because it suits the anti US agenga that a lot of people persue here.

As I said before im no apologist for the US and think guantanamo is wrong - they should have executed a lot of these people without trial in their own countires - because they would have gotten away with it judging from the complete lack of human rights in these places.

The last part is sarcasm btw

अधिनायक

Wolff wrote:

Which in a warped way is grand but getting back to the origional point that in countries where these lads came from - kids, women ,innocents are held every day and executed and nobody speaks out but because the US imprisons without trial a few extremists - everybody is up in arms because it suits the anti US agenga that a lot of people persue here.

Is your point that you think it's wrong to criticise the US for human rights abuses when other countries commit worse abuses?

So even GW is now predicting the closure of Guantanamo.

gwbush wrote:

The [Danish] Prime Minister and I share values, and he spent time making sure that I understood his strong belief that when we fight the war on terror and we help new democracies, that we've got to uphold the values that we believe in, and he brought up the Guantanamo issue. And I appreciate the fact that the Prime Minister is concerned about the decisions that I made on -- toward Guantanamo. I assured him that we would like to end the Guantanamo. We'd like it to be empty. And we're now in the process of working with countries to repatriate people.

But there are some that, if put out on the streets, would create grave harm to American citizens and other citizens of the world. And, therefore, I believe they ought to be tried in courts here in the United States. We will file such court claims once the Supreme Court makes its decision as to whether or not -- as to the proper venue for these trials. And we're waiting on our Supreme Court to act.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/06/20060609-2.html

Hobbes

Wolff wrote:

Well Hobbes has helpfully pointed out its ok to be kid in Afghanistan and carry a weapon (its part of the culture) so thats ok, but its not ok to imprison them.

The point was how would you tell if a child was part of a militia or just a random kid on the street?

Which in a warped way is grand but getting back to the origional point that in countries where these lads came from - kids, women ,innocents are held every day and executed and nobody speaks out but because the US imprisons without trial a few extremists - everybody is up in arms because it suits the anti US agenga that a lot of people persue here.

Do you have any examples of where tourture/etc is happening in other countries but everyone is just letting it happen?

Bare in mind that the US goes on about how it is the moral high ground (if you believe the sound bites).

Btw if an American complains about Gitmo does that mean in your eyes they are Traitors? (anti-US?)

sovtek

Wolff wrote:

a small point but im sure most of the home countries a lot of these prisoners come from would never imprison innocent people - or have mock trials - im sure none would ever condemn people to death for homosexuality and witchcraft etc

and behead ,hang and whip those found guilty or not guilty

Im sure they are all above reproach - i dont condone what the americans are doing in Guantanemo but lets look at the whole picture and not a slanted one

The ol' Rummy defense..."at least we aren't as bad as they are"

Wolff

well just have a look a the human rights record of Arabia and Yemem

where they came from .....

take your pick of any number of atrocities....and human rights breaches

As for the oul Rummy defense....he and the rest of his cronies support a lot of the countores involved.

Oh the random kid on the street with the AK47....oh I forgot he is just playing taliban with his mates.

you also seem to be missing my point - that im critiscing Guantanamo as well, but keeping in perspective the double standards of a lot of commentaters have on the issue that its dreadfull that America can do these things but keep quiet about the fact that the countries al lot of these extremists come from do far worse

sovtek

Hobbes wrote:

Well to be fair, no one in the camp is being treated like a soldier. Otherwise they would have the right to a fair trial for example and as the war in Afganistan is over they could no longer be legally held as P.O.W.

That's besides it being illegal to remove them from Afghanistan in the first place.

sovtek

Wolff wrote:

well just have a look a the human rights record of Arabia and Yemem

where they came from .....

take your pick of any number of atrocities....and human rights breaches

As for the oul Rummy defense....he and the rest of his cronies support a lot of the countores involved.

Oh the random kid on the street with the AK47....oh I forgot he is just playing taliban with his mates.

you also seem to be missing my point - that im critiscing Guantanamo as well, but keeping in perspective the double standards of a lot of commentaters have on the issue that its dreadfull that America can do these things but keep quiet about the fact that the countries al lot of these extremists come from do far worse

And from my perspective it's a matter of get your own house in order before you go bitching about someone else (especially when you've been buddy's with the countries you've mentioned).
I'm responsible for Gitmo...I'm not (well ok I am responsible for my government s support of Yemen et al which I bitch about too) so much responsible for Yemen.
Actually I've heard many commentators bitch about how evil the Taliban are/were...and I heard a few people bitching about them too...when UNOCAL were promising money or bombs to them.

sovtek

Wolff wrote:

well just have a look a the human rights record of Arabia and Yemem

where they came from .....

take your pick of any number of atrocities....and human rights breaches

As for the oul Rummy defense....he and the rest of his cronies support a lot of the countores involved.

Oh the random kid on the street with the AK47....oh I forgot he is just playing taliban with his mates.

you also seem to be missing my point - that im critiscing Guantanamo as well, but keeping in perspective the double standards of a lot of commentaters have on the issue that its dreadfull that America can do these things but keep quiet about the fact that the countries al lot of these extremists come from do far worse

I had a .22 rifle when I was about 12...should some invading army put me in prison for it?

ISAW

Wolff wrote:

... in countries where these lads came from - kids, women ,innocents are held every day and executed and nobody speaks out but because the US imprisons without trial a few extremists - everybody is up in arms because it suits the anti US agenga that a lot of people persue here.

Wrong! I spoke out against Saddam when Rumsfeld shook his hand and the US sold him weapons! And two wrongs do not make a right. Your "what about them over there they are bad too aint they..." off topic excuse will buck no credit in any rational debate.
sure if that was the case you can literally justify anything on in a so called "war" on terror on the basis that other people abuse Human Rights. the point is that human beings have rights no matter whether they are evil or not. those rights deserve to be protected. Keeping them without trial for three years isnt doing that.

As I said before im no apologist for the US and think guantanamo is wrong - they should have executed a lot of these people without trial in their own countires - because they would have gotten away with it judging from the complete lack of human rights in these places.

But that is what Saudi Arabia is asking for and the US wont do it. I will state it again two wrongs do not make a right you cant justify Us actions here on the basis that others are also abusers of human rights.

The last part is sarcasm btw

Incoming! Dive for cover! he is using sarcasm in the monty python military sense.

ISAW

sovtek wrote:

I had a .22 rifle when I was about 12...should some invading army put me in prison for it?

Actually the US flooded Afghanistan with funding for war and weapons.

They also insisted that the Iraq constitution allows anyone to have assault rifles in their house.

Hobbes

Wolff wrote:

well just have a look a the human rights record of Arabia and Yemem

So your whole defense is that because another country (that they may or may not come from) tortures and kills thier citizens that this gives the US a green card to do the same.

If thats how you see people should be treated thats your opinion.

take your pick of any number of atrocities....and human rights breaches

No I am asking you for an example of where human rights abuses are going on and no one else in the world is saying its wrong, or trying to do something about it?

No luck finding anything I take it then.

Latest update from the news. One of the people who had committed suicide had been marked for release as innocent but the US military never told him.

Kind of shoots the whole "They must be terrorists because they killed themselves" argument.

Also some of the recent ones released were told they were never getting out, or that they would be 50 before they would be allowed leave.

Also the guy from Yemen based on the description given would fall under POW status, not a terrorist.