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Guantanamo Bay Escapes
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Wolff wrote:Answer me one question - would you rather be an american soldier captured by the taliban or a taliban soldier captured by the americans.....
Why obviously the latter. Who wouldn't want to be captured by such a great and glorious nation? Guantanamo Bay Prison? Why it should be named Guantanamo Bay Hotel!
:rolleyes:0 -
ISAW wrote:
You sound a bit like Dubya with his "crusade" speech on 9/13. Do you understand that the main goal of the fundies is to unite the Muslim world first and not to attack the west?
then why are they attacking the west first
or were the trying to unite the twin towers into one tower ?
or in the spanish boming who were they trying to unite there, or in the london bombings or in Bali or any other number of atrocities
For a loose confederations of organisations they seem hell bent on bloodlust rather then unifying anything
nope no uniting there
Yes the US poured money into the fighting in Afghanistan but Bin Laden fell out with his cronies in Saudi a long time after that
was a bit upset with them for inviting the US army over to sort out Sadam - seeing as the saudi princes couldnt be bothered to fight a war themselves - my god they might get their nice uniforms dirty.
Lets face it the FUNDIES as you call them want us all to be muslim and live like the taliban or else die.0 -
Wolff wrote:I dont see your point - its a well known fact that most foreigners in Afghanistan at the time of the war were there as guests of Al queda - they werent there goat farming or having a look around - they were there for no good reason and you know it.
And you back this up with what, sounds like a half truth to me. They may have been guests of the Taliban but Al Queda?
I would love to see some proof of this.The Americans know guantanamo is not legal or right in an ideal world but the gloves have come off and the world we live in and the type of war they are involved in demands harsh treatment.
Well then there efforts to show this savage part of the world that their way is better is totally and utterly destroyed then isn't it. If they cannot even unhold one of their most basic principles innocent until proven guilty then they are just re-enforcing the message that extremists are feeding the people of the middle east that its one rule for them and the rest can go to hell. I mean the white american taliban had his day in court. If these men are so bad and dangerous there must be fairly solid proof, so put them on trial and get the high moral ground.
Maybe they can't do this because they made a mistake, one that has robbed people of a portion of their lives because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.Answer me one question - would you rather be an american soldier captured by the taliban or a taliban soldier captured by the americans.....
It matters not. If you believe in the process of your laws you apply them equally or your whole system is a sham.0 -
read his previous post - its completey incoherent..I meant it seriously0
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ISAW wrote:It seems you do not understand the principle of assumed INNOCENT until guilt is PROVEN BY EVIDENCE.
You remind me of the old type of arguement ina rape case of "she was wearing a short skiry your honour. if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck"
You cant say Gitmo ioos wrong and then also justify rounding up innocent people into concentration camps.
I mean what conclusion are you supposed to draw from that ?0 -
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http://www.janes.com/defence/news/misc/jwa011008_1_n.shtml
proof you were looking for
and sorry if my remark caused offence but i wasnt talking about a few mis spellings
I was refering to the notion of concentration camps, Rocky IV, Ducks, Fundamentalists being nice really and misunderstood,oh and this bit - if you understood it - fair play to you
So now you are claiming that no westerner even backpackers are in Afghanistan, to which I say "tree falling in the woods, terr falling in the woods, tree falling in the woods"
How do you know?
It was the duck that got me in the end though.0 -
Wolff wrote:So now you are claiming that no westerner even backpackers are in Afghanistan, to which I say "tree falling in the woods, terr falling in the woods, tree falling in the woods"
How do you know?
If you haven't heard of westeners backpacking in Afghanistan, does that infer that there were no westeners backpacking in Afghanistan? That was the analogy.
"If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck". Another analogy. This time referring to the notion that if a woman dresses in a tarty fashion, then she deserves to be raped. Ie: "Walks like a whore, talks like a whore, therefore it's okay for men to impose themselves sexually on her".
You seem to think that if a person happens to look like a terrorist (dark skin and beard) or happens to be in a terrorist populated area, then they're fair game for ill-treatment at the hands of the US.0 -
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no im saying most of the foreigners in afghanistan at time of the war were there to fight the us or had been with al qaeda.
can you give me better more innocent reasons why they might have been there ?0 -
Wolff wrote:http://www.janes.com/defence/news/misc/jwa011008_1_n.shtml
proof you were looking for
and sorry if my remark caused offence but i wasnt talking about a few mis spellings
Crap apology tbh and not even directed at the relevant person.I was refering to the notion of concentration camps, Rocky IV, Ducks, Fundamentalists being nice really and misunderstood,oh and this bit - if you
understood it - fair play to you
Well Gitmo sure looks like a concentration camp to alot of the world. Just because the inmates aren't been fed into ovens doesn't mean you can slap yourself on the back and say what a great humanitarian you are.
I never saw anywhere in his comments that they men in there are really nice and misunderstood. What he said is they should be put on trial if they have done wrong. Let the US authorities prove their guilt.So now you are claiming that no westerner even backpackers are in Afghanistan, to which I say "tree falling in the woods, terr falling in the woods, tree falling in the woods"
How do you know?
And how do you know that all the foreigners in Afghanistan were only foreign fighters as per the Janes article you posted (thanks for that its a good read). I will have a scoot around to see who else was over there if its documented.It was the duck that got me in the end though.
Just make sure you don't go hunting them with Cheney.0 -
Wolff wrote:I dont care if ducks want to go around in miniskirts
So you support the idea of bald assertion without any evidence and on putting people into concentration camps and assuming guilt?what i do care about is the blatant anti american stuff that goes on around here and the constant stating of half truths and lies
Another bald assertion. Care to please indicate any lies I have told or that anyone else has told here? i expect some evidence also.Yes Osama benefited from the CIA - took their money when he decided hed had enough of his fathers money
It is more push than pull we are concerned with here. Bin Laden was assisted by the US authorities as were the MuJIHADeen! Irrespective of whatever his motivation or wherever else he was supported the US Authorities were supporting him.
the tool other assistance as well . Military and weaponry and intelligence. Again I say to you two wrongs do not make a right You cant justify supporting terrorists if the terrorists just happen to be attacking your enemy at the time.Yes the Mujhadeen took the money as well but they would since they were fighting the russians and the Mujhadeen were not the Taliban
This is somehow justifying the US support of Islamic fundamentalists is it? Support which help create the whole worldwide network? the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" idea. So by that reason you can justify Supporting Saddam since Saddam was an ememy of Muslim fundamentalists. Oh wait a minute the Us supported Saddam as well didn't they. Your whole "black and white" picture of "goodies" and "baddies" is beginning to get quite grey now isnt it?The americans supported Ho Chi Minh during the second world war as well or can you not remember back that far eitherThe americans always support those when it suits their own interest....
AHA! Now we get to the bottom of it. so by your reasoning the abuse of human rights by the US in gitmo or anywhere else is acceptable if it is in the interest of the US. Exactly the charges that the US leveled against the Nazis as war crimes!Hell they even supported those damn commies as well before they fell out with them.
Fell out or "had mutually conflict interests in the same resources?"
You already made it. The point that the US can abuse human rights for nothing more than their own selfish interests. By this reasoning you might as well return the Southern States to slavery.I dont see your point -
No I DONT know it? I suppose your "well known fact" has some evidence to support it has it? Or is it as well known as the "well known fact" that WMD were in Iraq and the other well known "fact" that Saddam had Ak Khyda training camps in Iraq and that is why the Us had to invade?its a well known fact that most foreigners in Afghanistan at the time of the war were there as guests of Al queda - they werent there goat farming or having a look around - they were there for no good reason and you know it.The Americans know guantanamo is not legal or right in an ideal world but the gloves have come off and the world we live in and the type of war they are involved in demands harsh treatment.
So you now agree that the US should be above the law? Humane treatment does not apply to them? And this is based on the philosophy that the US have every right to act unilatterally in their own interest even if it disregards human rights and international law?Answer me one question - would you rather be an american soldier captured by the taliban or a taliban soldier captured by the americans.....
this is nback to the "but they are worse than us" It is not for the civil state to justify acting like terrorists on the basis that terrorists do the same. With such logic you can justify the SAS bombing Dublin because they think there is an IRA base there or because they need to stir up public reaction to bombing. Actually you realise you have basically justified 9/11 for the terrorists?0 -
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Wolff wrote:no im saying most of the foreigners in afghanistan at time of the war were there to fight the us or had been with al qaeda.
can you give me better more innocent reasons why they might have been there ?
You really seem to have lost the point.
there is no legal nuances here.
It is not up to people to prove their innocence. It is up to you who make a claim to show their guilt. You cant sfift the burden of proof onto others like that.
You claim guilt. You prove it! Otherwise they are assumend INNOCENT!
Now if they are innocent by what rights are they in detention?0 -
Oh so you were referring to me.Wolff wrote:and sorry if my remark caused offence but i wasnt talking about a few mis spellings
and what is your definition of a "concentration camp"I was refering to the notion of concentration camps,Rocky IV,
I referred to BEFORE Rocky IV but I apologice I meant RAMBO IV. Reason being that Rambo III was dedicated to the "brave fighters of the MuJIHADeen"
Metaphor seems to be lost on youDucks,Fundamentalists being nice really and misunderstood,oh and this bit - if you understood it - fair play to you
Where did I say that fundamentalists were nice people and that they were misunderstood?So now you are claiming that no westerner even backpackers are in Afghanistan, to which I say "tree falling in the woods, tree falling in the woods, tree falling in the woods"
How do you know?
Satire also seems to be lost as well. It is a quote from Bart Simpson. The underlying idea is the oriental koan but I refer to of incident without evidence. usually stated the koan is "if a tree falls in the middle of a forest and nobody is anywhere near it does it make a noise?"
The point I make is that even if a tree does make a noise then nobody can ever say so if nobody ever hears it. Likewise nobody can say anything about anyone in Afghanistan unless they actually witness what the people there were doing. In addition there are accounts which I have referred to of farmers being kidnapped and people being "set up"
for ransom.It was the duck that got me in the end though.
I might suggest I am expecting your argument to "quack" but I won't since the nuance mwight be lwost on you.0 -
Wolff wrote:no im saying most of the foreigners in afghanistan at time of the war were there to fight the us or had been with al qaeda.
can you give me better more innocent reasons why they might have been there ?
So everyone in Gitmo was caught in Afghanistan? News to me. They could of been there harvesting poppy plants for the heroin. They could of been there smoking the fabled black hashisi, could of been there visiting sick and injured relations.
They could of been there to pray to their god in a country of conflict where they thought they could stop this conflict at its roots, praying for the innocent Afghani civilians who got caught up in this. Could of been there to volunteer in the hospitals where there was a low supply of antiseptics and painkillers and a high supply of amputations and third degree burns.
Could of been there supporting the Taliban which might be seen as unlikely considering the American infiltration and number of troops they would have to fight.
Trouble is there is no proof, whether it be witnesses or video/ photographic evidence to convict anyone. Just some tips like those tips in England that got lots of people arrested and some deported to god knows where, two people shot for nothing and one Jean Charles de Menezes killed (shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder) .
Reports coming from Gitmo would have you believe that despite the lack of human rights surrounding right to free trial etc, there could be something more sinister i.e. phycologial and physical torture and maltreatment. Sure why not??.... theres no law regarding the institution that anyone can act on at the moment. So why not push the bar while no one is looking?
Bit of sleep depravation and torture would make anyone sing a few westlife songs nevermind "admit" to terrorism. It takes three people to string themselves up with bedclothes to make the world take notice again.... but that'll probably die down again.
"They have no regard for human life, neither ours nor their own. I believe this was not an act of desperation but an act of asymmetric warfare against us."
Spread fear and terror with this kind of tripe comment and you can dumb down and control any situation by frightening the bejaysus out of gullable ejjits that will actually end up standing by such comments in a complete lack of common sense and moral standpoint. Who are the real terrorists?0 -
Nick_Oliveri wrote:So everyone in Gitmo was caught in Afghanistan? News to me.
A very good point. 20 detainees were EU citizens captured in EU countries. There could easily have been Irish people captured and taken there. In fact, McDowell (scumming bastard) wrote it into Irish law that the US could do so legally.0 -
Nick_oliveri wrote:So everyone in Gitmo was caught in Afghanistan? News to me. They could of been there harvesting poppy plants for the heroin. They could of been there smoking the fabled black hashisi, could of been there visiting sick and injured relations.
They could of been there to pray to their god in a country of conflict where they thought they could stop this conflict at its roots, praying for the innocent Afghani civilians who got caught up in this. Could of been there to volunteer in the hospitals where there was a low supply of antiseptics and painkillers and a high supply of amputations and third degree burns.
Could of been there supporting the Taliban which might be seen as unlikely considering the American infiltration and number of troops they would have to fight.
Trouble is there is no proof, whether it be witnesses or video/ photographic evidence to convict anyone. Just some tips like those tips in England that got lots of people arrested and some deported to god knows where, two people shot for nothing and one Jean Charles de Menezes killed (shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder) .
Reports coming from Gitmo would have you believe that despite the lack of human rights surrounding right to free trial etc, there could be something more sinister i.e. phycologial and physical torture and maltreatment. Sure why not??.... theres no law regarding the institution that anyone can act on at the moment. So why not push the bar while no one is looking?
Bit of sleep depravation and torture would make anyone sing a few westlife songs nevermind "admit" to terrorism. It takes three people to string themselves up with bedclothes to make the world take notice again.... but that'll probably die down again.
"They have no regard for human life, neither ours nor their own. I believe this was not an act of desperation but an act of asymmetric warfare against us."
Spread fear and terror with this kind of tripe comment and you can dumb down and control any situation by frightening the bejaysus out of gullable ejjits that will actually end up standing by such comments in a complete lack of common sense and moral standpoint. Who are the real terrorists?
where did I say all detainess were arrested in Afghanistan...even in my quote it doesnt say that..
so you think they all went there to smoke blow and pray...
well reasoned arguement...
But now we are beginning to quote Bart Simpson I think ill bow out of this thread
oh and the real terrorist are the lads crashing planes into buildings, beheading people and posting in to the internet and causing death and destruction beceause they have become warped by their religion....
Ive thought long and hard about this and the fact of the matter is I dont care about anyone in Guantanamo- dont care what happens to them...where they end up...as I said before if they are so innocent how come the US is having som much trouble repatriating them..their own countries dont want them.....
At the end of the day its a terrible thing to lock people up without trial but tough things happen in a war
The British have done, the americans have done it the Russians have done it...every one has done it at some point in their history...doesnt make it right but it needs to be done...it serves its purpose and is finsihed until it needs to be done again
A lot of people dont see to realise this. Or are high up on the moral highground they cant see whats happening on the ground..0 -
Wolff wrote:Sovtek...so you are saying you are interested only in America shortcomings and every other countries mis deeds are not important because America practices double standards
Name me a country that doesnt
We're not talking about the EU stiffing African countries on trade law...we're talking about torturing people and killing hundreds of thousands of people for politics.
I'm saying that I'm cheifly interested in the misdeeds of the American government because as an American citizen I am responsible for their actions.0 -
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Wolff wrote:no money was involved as bounties to the Northern Alliance...another myth dispelled
What myth? did I say the brits were handed over for a reward? I said that countless people have been handed over for rewards by the Northern Alliance who have done nothing except be a stranger in the wrong place or pissed off the NA in some way or other.
Not the story I initially read but something to get you started...
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/11508
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3034697.stm
A US report states that 86% of detainees were handed over by NA/local bounty hunters rather then actual US investigations. These people were compensated for handing detainees over.also a lot of the current detainees cant be released as their own countries dont want them back
Which means they can apply for Asylum. As last time I checked its illegal for a person to be stateless.Rasul, 26, Ahmed, 22, and Iqbal, 22, ...
Funny the way I read that it doesn't sound like they are terrorists at all and they have since been released and never charged (iirc). Yet you appear to think they are?0 -
Wolff wrote:as I said before if they are so innocent how come the US is having som much trouble repatriating them..their own countries dont want them.....
IIRC the three British guys that were completely innocent had the British government asking the Americans to release them or charge them. They were also considered innocent by the British government.
Seems there's a movie about it too.0 -
(To help you find the document)REPORT ON GUANTANAMO DETAINEES
A Profile of 517 Detainees through Analysis of Department of Defense Data
By Mark Denbeaux
highlights from investigation.
- 55% of the detainees are not determined to have committed any hostile acts against the United States or its coalition allies.
- Only 8% of the detainees were characterized as al Qaeda fighters.
- 40% have no definitive connection with al Qaeda at all and
- 18% are have no definitive affiliation with either al Qaeda or the Taliban.
- numerous persons detained based on mere affiliations with a large number of groups that are not on the DHS terrorist watchlist.
- 8% detained because they are deemed “fighters for;”
- 30% considered “members of;”
- a large majority – 60% are detained merely because they are “associated with”
- Only 5% of the detainees were captured by United States forces.
- 86% of the detainees were arrested by either Pakistan or the Northern Alliance and turned over to United States custody at a time in which the United States offered large bounties for capture of suspected enemies.0 -
First you say
A US report states that 86% of detainees were handed over by NA/local bounty hunters rather then actual US investigations. These people were compensated for handing detainees over.
the report says
86% of the detainees were arrested by either Pakistan or the Northern Alliance and turned over to United States custody at a time in which the United States offered large bounties for capture of suspected enemies.
not exactly the same thing now is it ? funny how when i read the document I see what it says when you read it it magically changes to what you want it to say.0 -
Wolff wrote:not exactly the same thing now is it ? funny how when i read the document I see what it says when you read it it magically changes to what you want it to say.
What is the difference exactly? I left out Pakistan? well I had been reading a news report on it and thought I'd actually get the document in question and read it. Also I pulled that from the start of the document however bounty hunters are cited in the document as well.
Seriously.. what are you trying to say?
From page 15..The United States promised (and apparently paid) large sums of money for the capture of
persons identified as enemy combatants in Afghanistan and Pakistan. One representative flyer, distributed in Afghanistan, states:
Get wealth and power beyond your dreams....You can receive millions of
dollars helping the anti-Taliban forces catch al-Qaida and Taliban murders.
This is enough money to take care of your family, your village, your tribe for
the rest of your life. Pay for livestock and doctors and school books and
housing for all your people.
Bounty hunters or reward-seekers handed people over to American or Northern Alliance
soldiers in the field, often soon after disappearing; as a result, there was little opportunity on the field to verify the story of an individual who presented the detainee in response to the bounty award. Where that story constitutes the sole basis for an individual’s detention in Guantanamo, there would be little ability either for the Government to corroborate or a detainee to refute such an allegation0 -
Wolff wrote:
so you think they all went there to smoke blow and pray...
well reasoned arguement...
But now we are beginning to quote Bart Simpson I think ill bow out of this thread
Good. The point i was trying to make is that its none of your business or anyone elses what they were doing in Afghanistan except when someone with authority can prove without a reasonable doubt that they are engaged in terrorism or some other offence.oh and the real terrorist are the lads crashing planes into buildings, beheading people and posting in to the internet and causing death and destruction beceause they have become warped by their religion....
Ive been doin some posting lately, am i a terrorjist?!! They haven't become warped by religion, they have become warped by people, same as in the western world.Ive thought long and hard about this and the fact of the matter is I dont care about anyone in Guantanamo- dont care what happens to them...where they end up...as I said before if they are so innocent how come the US is having som much trouble repatriating them..their own countries dont want them.....
I believe you have become warped by[SIZE=-1]propaganda, how would you feel if it was a member of your family or a relation of yours that you will never see again? Suppose that wouldnt happen though because you haven't become warped by that religion.......[/SIZE]At the end of the day its a terrible thing to lock people up without trial but tough things happen in a war
War? What war? All i see are a couple of car bombs, suicide bombs, a large infiltration and unjustifiable killings. Who started this war? Al Queda? Osama the Saudi? The Twin Towers? Oil? Bart Simpson? Is this war in the same context as a war on drugs or a war on crime? If so, when will it end? (Wont someone think of the children!!)The British have done, the americans have done it the Russians have done it...every one has done it at some point in their history...doesnt make it right but it needs to be done...it serves its purpose and is finsihed until it needs to be done again.
So much for learning from our mistakes. Ahh well, im sure the Irish will do it soon too. Then im sure you will see the true purpose it will serve when you run out of all your basic rights and ... cough... freedoms. I dont mean to sound like some amnesty activist, and im sorry if i do, but you would think after all these years we could have learned to treat others fairly without racial and religious prejudice and pissing all over someones rights and lives.A lot of people dont see to realise this. Or are high up on the moral highground they cant see whats happening on the ground..
What exactly is happening on the ground? I must not of paid attention the last few years. Maybe i should be in Gitmo.
Do people deserve this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Camp_x-ray_detainees.jpgWikipedia- wrote:Some detainees started attempting to commit suicide almost right away. In mid-2002 the DoD changed the way they classified suicide attempts, calling them "self-injurious behavior". The DoD acknowledges only 41 suicide attempts among 29 detainees
Teh Wiki! wrote:Mishal Awad Sayaf Alhabiri- Suicide attempt left him brain-damaged. He can still obey simple instructions.[11]
- Repatriated to Saudi custody.
Mo Wiki! wrote:Senator Arlen Specter, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, commented: "Where we have evidence, they ought to be tried, and if convicted, they ought to be sentenced."[6] Specter added that many of the detainees' capture was based: "...the flimsiest sort of hearsay."
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Weird photo that.0
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I hear there's a hugh paedophilia scandal at the moment. Time to start rounding up people we find near playgrounds. Sure what reason would they have for being there unless they were thinking of molesting children? :rolleyes:0
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Wolff wrote:a small point but im sure most of the home countries a lot of these prisoners come from would never imprison innocent people - or have mock trials - im sure none would ever condemn people to death for homosexuality and witchcraft etc
and behead ,hang and whip those found guilty or not guilty
Im sure they are all above reproach - i dont condone what the americans are doing in Guantanemo but lets look at the whole picture and not a slanted one
You keep doing this!
You keep asking "What about all the other countries which may be worse."
This isnt about other countries. It s about the US base in Cuba. If you want to contradict chinese beheadings then start up a thread on that. You are dealing with people her who oppoded Saddam when the Us supported him so please don't resort to "whataboutery".
Teh other thing you keep doing is shifting the burden It just isnt up to others to prove innocence. No amount of accusations of biased or slanted views will change the fact that "assumed innocent" is the standard principle of criminal law!0 -
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Here is what you said:Wolff wrote:where did I say all detainess were arrested in Afghanistan...even in my quote it doesnt say that..most of the foreigners in afghanistan at time of the war were there to fight the us or had been with al qaeda.
Apparently you believe most of them were there to attack the US.so you think they all went there to smoke blow and pray...But now we are beginning to quote Bart Simpson I think ill bow out of this thread
the quote was from a different episode where Bart is learning crazy golf. But really I suspect you are going to bow out because you havent been able to support a single claim you have made. All you have dont is state (without support) that international Law is wrong and that the US should do as it likes for its own selfish interest whenever it wants. You have provided no basis for such an argument which was the central thesis of the Nazis.
Like christian fundamentalists and militia movements in the US?oh and the real terrorist are the lads crashing planes into buildings, beheading people and posting in to the internet and causing death and destruction beceause they have become warped by their religion....
You assume guilt and you dont care about civil rights. the same sentiments which the cold down slave traders would have expressed. "Look hes black and them black countries are all heathens. he must be a rapist. Lets lynch the nigga! " eh?Ive thought long and hard about this and the fact of the matter is I dont care about anyone in Guantanamo- dont care what happens to them...where they end up...as I said before if they are so innocent how come the US is having som much trouble repatriating them..their own countries dont want them.....At the end of the day its a terrible thing to lock people up without trial but tough things happen in a war
i.e. Lets have a lynching
As lynchings and crusifying christ. So let us do it again eh?The British have done, the americans have done it the Russians have done it...every one has done it at some point in their history.A lot of people dont see to realise this. Or are high up on the moral highground they cant see whats happening on the ground..
If you get the lumber dont expect me to supply the nails.0
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