Should the Irish army aquire heavy tanks?

darkman2

One noticable absence in the defence forces is the lack of heavy duty tanks, not even one. Do they need it?, should they procure any?

mike65

I cant imagine were they would ever use them for real. Or how they'd be transported to a war zone quickly enough to be of use. Does the air-corp or army have a C-130 type plane?

Mike.

Esel

Ireland is too boggy for heavy tanks. However, if the Defence Forces want some, I can supply 'one previous owner' tanks to order. Reduction for bulk orders. Just as long as I can get clearance to land my Antonov at Knock airport.

Manic Moran

'Should they?'

In an ideal world, yes. A squadron for training purposes and if required, deployment abroad. Countries that Ireland frequently deploys on UN missions with have them, and there's a little more to working with tanks than the unitiated might think. Ireland used to have tanks, but with the demise of the Comets and Churchills, there also came the demise of Ireland's tanking ability, which is a bit of a shame since today's tanks are far more mobile and useful per tank than the old Comets for defensive purposes.

In the real world, however, there are things that are a tad higher on the priority list. At over $4m per tank these days, they're hardly cheap and need to set a back seat to other, more urgently required procurements.

NTM

ButcherOfNog

No, no need or use for them, better to invest in AT than MBT's, more bang for your buck for a small force like ours.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Absoluely. Where else are they gonna put the fish...?

babybundy

mike65 wrote:

. Does the air-corp or army have a C-130 type plane?

Mike.

they have 2 casa transporters the best description i can give is they are like baby hercules

civdef

They have two Casa maritime patrol aircraft, which definitely aren't transporters. Apparently some new transporters are under consideration.

skink

darkman2 wrote:

One noticable absence in the defence forces is the lack of heavy duty tanks, not even one. Do they need it?, should they procure any?

No i doubt any heavey tanks will be bought for the irish DF as on paper the army will be maintained on the "light infantry brigade" structure

esel wrote:

Ireland is too boggy for heavy tanks.

I think your wrong there, germany and england have large amounts of bog too, and the glen of imaal is not the most boggy place in the world, and neither is kilbride

babybundy wrote:

they have 2 casa transporters the best description i can give is they are like baby hercules

as civdef said they are not transporters they are maritime patrol craft, and are fitted out with surveillence equipment.

Hagar

Heavy tanks on an island this size? Not really necessary IMHO. Where would we use them?
Strategically doesn't heavy armour work better en masse? Not in 2's and 3's.
You could probably get more value buying 3/4 Mowags for the same money.

Anti-tank weaponry is much cheaper than tanks, now that would be a good buy.

Rew

We have loads of Anti-Armour weapons.

Manic Moran

Rew wrote:

We have loads of Anti-Armour weapons.

Um.. Have you seen the numbers?

For Ireland's military defensive purposes, a single tank battalion probably would not actually be that amiss. A company per brigade. You won't be doing any sweeping assaults with that few tanks, but since the infantry are basically footsloggers, there's no great need for it. Defensively, it would be enough to keep people honest.

However, and this is a major 'but', they would only be expensive sitting duck targets unless the Air Defense system got a radical update to at least 'vaguely useful.' That's expensive enough, and much more critical than tanks.

The primary focus really should be on training for, and ultimately deployment on peacekeeping ops. Any talk of using tanks operationally in Ireland (and Ireland generally is pretty good tank country) is pretty much fantasy for now.

NTM

Wolff

Why in gods name do we need heavy tanks - what purpose would they fulfill

They would be no use driving around Dublin after Secricor Vans
They would be of no benefit policing third world countries - unless they had air conditioning - I think the M1 Abhrams has so maybe they could be used to cool beer.
They would cost a fortune in diesel just look at the prices.
We couldnt use depleted uranium rounds because we arent allowed.

They dont have moustaches...

civdef

Militaries that have used tanks in a peace-keeping/enforcing role will generally state that having heavy armour around tends to remind all sides of the need to keep things peaceful.

The panzer building company Krauss Maffei are now offering a Peace Support Operations variant of their Leopard 2 tank with this in mind.

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/leo2.htm

The Leopard 2 for Peace Supporting Operations is the future-proof response to the deployment reality of the armed forces. This new variant of the Leopard 2 features highly effective all-round protection combined with a secondary weapon station, improved reconnaissance capability, track skirts, non-lethal weapons, near-field observation capability via camera systems, searchlights and supplementary equipment designed to enhance its persistence and mobility.
The Leopard PSO thus combines sustainability and efficiency for MOUT (Military-Operations-in-Urban-Terrain) missions – the new range of assignments for the Allied armed forces. Source: Krauss-Maffei Wegmann GmbH.

babybundy

they only time they need heavy tanks is abroad and dont they just use the other nations tanks

The Real B-man

I don’t think there would be a use for them i doubt we will be invaded or invade another country to justify spending that kind of money i mean we are a small nation and apparently "Neutral" so it would be waste of tax payers money is you ask me

My 2 Cents

Manic Moran

1. They would be no use driving around Dublin after Secricor Vans
2. They would be of no benefit policing third world countries - unless they had air conditioning - I think the M1 Abhrams has so maybe they could be used to cool beer.
3. They would cost a fortune in diesel just look at the prices.
4. We couldnt use depleted uranium rounds because we arent allowed.

1: Neither are the Scorpions. Or the 105mm light guns. Or half the other things the Defense Forces have.
2: They are very useful in policing: Wherever a tank turns up tends to get quiet, quickly. My M1 Abrams didn't have air conditioning, though I think the latest SEP model does. Not that I'll ever see that. We just drank a lot of water to counteract the sweat.
3: True, they run at about $200 per mile. (Fuel, maintenance, parts)
4: You can get a 90% solution from tungsten alloys, which many countries use. Tanks also fire off explosive rounds and machineguns, which are quite intimidating when you're a troop on the receiving end.

they only time they need heavy tanks is abroad and dont they just use the other nations tanks

The same arguments for aircraft. But at least the Irish troops who go abroad have some familiarity with working with helicopters from training at home, not so for MBTs. Plus, I'm sure it's a lot more convenient for everyone if the tank that just rolled up to help you has a crew that speaks the same language as you. "I say, dear Spanish Leopard commander, would you mind awfully putting a HE round into that bunker over there to the right of that church please?" "Que?" "Ah, it's all right, Mick, he's from Barcelona..."

NTM

babybundy

ya i think its the prussian or the belarussians that fly our lads around with the hind E

cushtac

babybundy wrote:

ya i think its the prussian or the belarussians that fly our lads around with the hind E

Prussians? Prussia's not an independent country, it's a state in Germany. The Ukranians are the one's flying the helicopters in Liberia.

babybundy

well it must be the belarussians in kfor or sfor sorry for not stating which mission

I can imagine it now...a leopard or Challanger lashing around the Curragh and the Glen. No we have no need nor do we have the budget. Some IFV's would be nice maybe some of the Swedish CV series.

Im not in the Cav so I dont have any information on what would be useful.

tallus

Ok I know slightly off topic here, but last year I heard a story that the Air Corps were considering buying blackhawk helicopters. Anyone else hear this rumour?

Bam Bam

they were considering buying them, instead they bought the AB 139's.

tallus

Bam Bam : are they those czech prop driven trainers? I live close to Baldonnell and see them quite a bit.

Bam Bam

Those are turboprop PC-9 pilatus Training planes

The AB 139 is a BRAND NEW helicopter which the air corp are to receive 4 currently

I think they didn't get the UH 60's because they were getting a new, or upgraded, government jet.

[ This info is all released by the DF to the public ]

tallus

Ok cheers Bam Bam