Funds shortfall puts back main road to 2015

mysterious

Aidan1 wrote:

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about the N7 and N8? What other national roads are you talking about?

(btw, the route of the former N7 - R445 at Nenagh carried less than 5000 movements pd - is that 'substantial' traffic - where are the hidden volumes you speak of?)

I will see my merits in this, because YOU TWIST EVERYTHING i SAY.. I explained exactly which route and exactly where that is why I asked the question, If you can't have a proper arguement, I personally think you are trolling, people will see it soon enough.

Secondly we and popebenny have TOLD you that the figures are well over 6,500 in 2002, the N52 links and takes roughly 2,000 a day from the town, probably higher, AGAIN STOP PLAYING WITH OLD FIGURES. The N52 is a national routes with no counter, stop taking OLD figures, ( I think someone needs to observe you at all time) IF your not sure, please do more research.

aidian wrote:

Torn down? Are we talking about demolition work, or the fact that there seems to be some slippage on the project?

Huh, matter of words, I'll let you figure it, out cus you seem to play clever and dumb.

Aidan wrote:

Finally, a point. And a critical one. Yes, the route carries more commuter traffic than the N8

Are you over this yet. Still not much point to what we and other were orignally discussing, trolling here again, choosing words again.[/quote]

Aidan wrote:

But the N8 is still a more congested route because the roads are worse - hence the upgrade programme. And the N8 carries more national traffic,

Your opinons again. You can't distingush national from local traffic as, the N8 is a central corridor/ not just the Dublin route. over much of it's lenght it has simular traffic counts some higher some lower.



[quote=Aidanhence an additional higher priority. Its not like the N7 won't get its programme, it will, but it is rightly a lower priority than the N8.[/quote] again because you say so, really? well you Must NOT forget that the N7 also links with N18 and N21 towards Dublin, You have honestly no idea, how conjested Mountrath can become? so your saying from your opinon there is more national route traffic on N8 because you say so. I can tell you a lot of local traffic from Thurles to Cashel, Cashel to Cahir? Clonmel to Cashel? Mitchellstown to Fermoy?

DO A SURVEY?

BETTER still since you like pointing out traffic at Nenagh bp,, please counter the CARS on the CAHIER Bypass( even still it has more acceses and will have more traffic since the N24 merges here);)

Aidan wrote:

Its not a case of either or, its a case of both, and rightly so. But the prioritisation has to take place on a rational basis, and it seems that this is what has occurred

That's utterly stupid, you said the N8 should be higher priorthy, now you say both? then you say prioritisationhas occurred, explain this to me, this is new to me, and other's on this thread. You must not forget the Nenagh to Limerick M7 was already drawn up in 1999 and mooted years before a section of N8 would be built except from Fermoy.

Aidan wrote:

As for your assertion that I was highly selective when I picked the counters, I picked the ones closest. If you looked back along the thread, you'll see that I took as my baseline the counter at Cahir, the closest counter north of Mitchelstown on the N8 (and still 80k from Cork city), Nenagh is only 40k from Limerick.

well glad you pointed it out yep it's a few mile south to Cahir before the hill. Yep but weren't we were comparing which route should go first, I mean most of the route till this point is nearly finished, I think, and most would agree put some focus on Limerick to Nenagh section, even if the Mitchellstown section is to wait. This part of the N7 we are dicussing is busier:p whatever you say!

Aidan wrote:

Depends what you mean by 'considerable'. The N25 at Little Island, as I pointed out, carries twice the traffic as the N7 at Anacotty ... and nearly 90,000 commuters a day go through the toll bridge on the M50, over twice that again. In the short distance between Carrigtwohill and Little Island for example, over 14,000 movements pd are added. I don't think the 2,500 pd that either Fermoy and Mitchelstown add could be considered as 'considerable' in that light.

Right your off on a tangent there.

Aidan wrote:

This is a circular argument kid, and going nowhere. Its obvious that you feel hard done by, and that 'your' road should have got the investment first. Its an emotive argument, and I understand that you must feel frustrated. But the investment is coming, and according to a fairly rational set of priorities. What more can you ask for?

I said this along time ago, you call me Kid.:D It's an emotive argument big words for you there, since you don't read points properly, I mean we could have made progress if we could have to stick to the SECTION(making it clear to everyone not Kliworth might i say)roads we and other's were orginally talking about Aidan.

What investment are you trying to tell me? I mean the Limerick route has not EVEN started yet unlike the Waterford,Galway and Cork

I am having a arguement with you, in some cases I brought my level down to you, that's why you detect frustration in me.;) I'm now making a response, am not frustrated.:)

mysterious

mfitzy wrote:

You're obviously not famaliar with the geography of the area - I live there and use these roads regularly so I think I have greater authority on the subject.
Athy IS on the planned N9- there will be a link road feeding onto the new road.
Leighlinbridge bypass- dates from the early '80's- hardly a recent addition is it now?

The R700- practically all traffic between Wexford/Rosslare/New Ross and Kilkenny will be diverted off onto the N9 dual-carriageway when it's built- aontother 3 or 4 thousand vehicles daily.This road as everything to do with the N9.
Same with N78 traffic- carries a lot of Kilkenny-Dublin traffic, will again be diverted on to the N9.
Therefore it is wholely inaccurate to single out one lightly trafficed stretch after Paulstown and parade it as an example of why this road shouldn't be built.You need to look at a combination of current rubbish roads in the region which will in future be replaced by the N9 for the most part.I know for a fact that Thomastown is just 4M wide- trucks and buses find it extremely difficult to pass here-it's a nightmare.

The facts are the current N9 road is dangerous, inadequate and substandard. A realignment upgrade would just not have been possible for the most part, with all the houses lining the route.
Therefore, greenfield was the only solution-it would have been very shortsighted to proceed with a mere two-lane greenfield road, when the cost involved wouldn't have been much more.

The N4 has seen continuous investment over the last 20 years, which is more than can be said for the N9. I was up the West last year and couldn't get over the quality of many stretches of the N roads- talk about political influence... For the first time in decades the s east actually has some clout in government and we're meant to feel somehow guilty for expressing it.

This region needs this road to prosper and re-establish itself after years of neglect. In all fairness it was regions like the s east in particular which kept the lights on in this country- even through the grim 1950s-1980s our agriculture and industry ( we had a small industrial base long before now pampered places like Galway, Sligo or Limerick), and always contributed strongly to the countries exchequer.

You have greater authority on the subject you make it sound like N9 is your middle name. The figures don't add up. I mean it was written up on the indo and other sites,lol I can't get the rescoures to prove it, but the results was much of the N9 was not suited to dual status

if i can remember it was un taisce.

I believe the experts.

Wtf is with the R700, it's a regional road. it does not have anything to do with it in status of the road, I know gazillons of R roads that add to traffic figures to a N road, this is just a degradable arguement:o . That route crosses the N9. Kikenny to New Ross. Sweet jesus. Why does 5,000 at the sections I pointed out justify a dual lane road.

N21I mean Adare has 15,000 cars a day and it's getting a 2+1
N4 between Longford and Mullingar is getting a normal wide 2 lane road with traffic around 10,000 average, maybe dipping.?

It just dosn't justify.

Mfitzy wrote:

Therefore it is wholely inaccurate to single out one lightly trafficed stretch after Paulstown and parade it as an example of why this road shouldn't be.

Making this quite CLEAR I told you million times i don't exaggerate, LOL. You accuseed me of picking a low traffic route, am sir I pointed out that the Carlow section from this point to M9 should get a dual lane because it's by far busier than any section of the N9, the stretch I pointed out at Paulstown is a good few miles even passed Thomastown till the N10 intersection at kikenny!!! It's valid. Me thinks why bother repeat myself, I COULD do with some help here.

Aidan1

That's utterly stupid, you said the N8 should be higher priorthy, now you say both? then you say prioritisationhas occurred, explain this to me, this is new to me,

You really are confused.

My point has been that the N8 should be higher priority, that it is (clearly in the minds of the NRA) a high(er) priority (ergo a rational prioritisation has ocurred). No change of argument, no duplicity.

I'm not saying that the N7 doesn't need upgrading, of course it does, but the outcome of the process is that it will be slightly later than 'some' of the projects on the N8. Why are your knickers in such a twist? Because the N/M7 plan has experienced some slippage? This entire programme was to be finished this year - I think its fair to say that all projects have had their slippages. This isn't a Limerick vs Cork thing, its just rational. I've provided concrete figures from a verifiable source - yet you persist on telling us that theres 'loads' of traffic around the Limerick area not captured by these counters. Has it ever occurred to you that the same might be true for other parts of the country?

Like I said, circular argument. And going no where.

As for the OP, I've heard no evidence to back up any of the claims made therein. The last sections of the N8 are programmed to be finished in 2011, all going well. Yes, there may be slippages, but its equally likely that some programmes will finish ahead of schedule.

Bards

mysterious wrote:

Wtf is with the R700, it's a regional road. it does not have anything to do with it in status of the road, I know gazillons of R roads that add to traffic figures to a N road, this is just a degradable arguement:o . That route crosses the N9. Kikenny to New Ross. Sweet jesus. Why does 5,000 at the sections I pointed out justify a dual lane road. .

Once the M9 is completed along with the Waterford City bypass it will be much safer to travel to New Ross from Kilkenny via M9 (Kilkenny to Waterford City Bypass in under 25 Mins travelling at 120Kph and about 10 Mins to New Ross at 100 Kph). Total time about 35 mins +/- 5 mins as opposed to 80Kph limit on R700. Mfitzy - maybe you could clarify how long it presently takes to go to New Ross from Kilkenny via R700 and what condition the road is in


It is more economically feasible to do the route in a full HQDC configuration now as opposed to retrofitting it a later date vis-a-vis the M50.

Traffic on the M50 was not predicted to be at the present level for many years yet.

"If you build it they will come" - meaning jobs, people, cars, prosperity etc. adding value to the whole island economy not just the S.E region

Comming back to traffic counts.

From Waterford the N9 Splits at Ballyhale and forms the N10 to Kilkenny and N9 to Paulstown where both roads rejoin again. The traffic counts do not take into account traffic on the N10 but only give half the picture. hence the low numbers. M9 will replace the N10 so there will only be one route not two... Have a look at a map and you will see what I mean.

Darwin

I travel the Kilkenny to New ross road via R700 about once a month. For the most part, the road is twisty and slow going. I guess it takes about 40 to 45 minutes - the real traffic holdups tend to occur in New Ross though (if you don't take the ring road)

road_high

Bards wrote:

Once the M9 is completed along with the Waterford City bypass it will be much safer to travel to New Ross from Kilkenny via M9 (Kilkenny to Waterford City Bypass in under 25 Mins travelling at 120Kph and about 10 Mins to New Ross at 100 Kph). Total time about 35 mins +/- 5 mins as opposed to 80Kph limit on R700. Mfitzy - maybe you could clarify how long it presently takes to go to New Ross from Kilkenny via R700 and what condition the road is in


It is more economically feasible to do the route in a full HQDC configuration now as opposed to retrofitting it a later date vis-a-vis the M50.

Traffic on the M50 was not predicted to be at the present level for many years yet.

"If you build it they will come" - meaning jobs, people, cars, prosperity etc. adding value to the whole island economy not just the S.E region

Comming back to traffic counts.

From Waterford the N9 Splits at Ballyhale and forms the N10 to Kilkenny and N9 to Paulstown where both roads rejoin again. The traffic counts do not take into account traffic on the N10 but only give half the picture. hence the low numbers. M9 will replace the N10 so there will only be one route not two... Have a look at a map and you will see what I mean.

No problem, the R700 crosses the N9 at Thomastown and onto New Ross via inistioge village- I know this road like the back of my hand 'cos I use it for work occassionally up and down to Wexford- I'd say you know it too, being from waterford.It takes the bones of an hour to get from KK to New Ross at present, espec if you get stuck behind a truck (more than likely)- this a 45km journey...

It is in an horrendous state, like the present N9, nothing but hairpin bends and continous white lines-can count on one hand the no of places to overetake.A lot of traffic to Rosslare and New Ross ports from the midlands and west use it too in fact (shorter than N80).So please Mysterious don't dismiss it as some insignificant R road. I mention it as it is one of the roads (also N78, and N10 as you say) that will feed into the new N9.

That is precisely my point, the N9 and N10 are currently two seperate roads- therefore you must add the two in tandem to compare with N8 or N7.


Oh yea mysterious, an taisce- pack of do-gooders who would like to hold back all development and go back to the 1950s.And as for what the indo would write...You wouln't have been up a tree in the Glen of Downs a few years ago by any chance....

spacetweek

mfitzy wrote:

I have no problem with it per say- I'm all in favour of good infrastructure anywhere in Ireland.
I would love to see Counties Fermanagh, Tyrone and Derry city rejoin the 26 counties rightfully, as these are clearly nationalist counties in the majority.But until this happens the taxpayer itself in the n orth will have to fund the A5 (hopefully N2 SOMEDAY!!!) improvements.
At present what scarce resources in the republic need to be pumped into the east and south of the country where the critical infrastructure is needed the most, and in all fairness where most of the tax revenues originate in the first place.

Someday...

mysterious

Aidan1 wrote:

You really are confused.

My point has been that the N8 should be higher priority, that it is (clearly in the minds of the NRA) a high(er) priority (ergo a rational prioritisation has ocurred). No change of argument, no duplicity.

Well now it does seem a bit more clearer, I think it's blantantly obvious that the N7 is not any priority..

Aidan wrote:

I'm not saying that the N7 doesn't need upgrading, of course it does, but the outcome of the process is that it will be slightly later than 'some' of the projects on the N8.

which I'm not overly concerned about, that's life, I would put up with it if they could Build the Mountrath section and Limerick to Nenagh section.

Aidan wrote:

Why are your knickers in such a twist?

Your thoughts here are a bit the other way I think:D (Don't think anyone said this on this forum, but no harm in letting every one else see who I'm argueing against.

Aidan wrote:

. This isn't a Limerick vs Cork thing, its just rational. I've provided concrete figures from a verifiable source - yet you persist on telling us that theres 'loads' of traffic around the Limerick area not captured by these counters. Has it ever occurred to you that the same might be true for other parts of the country?

Well Of course Aidan I totally agree, We are talking about N roads though aren't we.

"Loads" around Limerick? lol, get a life, Might I say you brought up Rossbrien which is more Limerick than anything we have talked about. Yep you said it. I stuck to the topic and that was in case you get mixed up was the "N7 Nenagh to Limerick" (Traffic on the N7 near Nenagh at Five Alley is around 14,000,) you make it sound SO dramatic, "thats a twist you put in my words, sutle all the same"

There are plentiful more counters on the N8, if not three times as many the N7. It's a pity they didn't put one up on the Nenagh Limerick section section.

I MAKE THIS POINT CLEARLY TO YOU AGAIN, you can have all the facts and sources but if it's not the section of route we were talking about then it's not relevant, I SAID THIS already, the only factual information was relevant, it's Cahir. This took you how many post's to get to the point and stop twisting the facts might I say again. It's like I could say well the N7 is busier than the N8 because on the NRA site, traffic at Kill is approximatley 50,000 more than the N8, But we all know that N7N8-N9) contributes to the traffic flows. Now it would be pointless to compare this to the N8, now wouldn't it Aidan. You did exactly this but on a smaller scale with Kilworth. lol.

Aidan wrote:

Like I said, circular argument. And going no where.

Maybe you should take responsibilty for your half, because besides from your "some" irrielevant facts your sure gave a lot of opinons that had no back up too. At least we could make progress since you mentioned the counter between Mitchellstown and Cahir. Oh my god this was the route we were all talking about in the first post of this thread.
[/quote]


AT least now I have dealt the fact that the Nenagh Limerick section was more needed and urgent than the Mitchellstown Cashel section, I did not mention the rest despite delays etc... But you were challenging enough all the same, you certaintly change a lot of points along the way. But I know I got my message across eventually, and I know the NRA are putting the limerick section on the back burner, but it does seem to me that there is a personal issue with NRA.

nordydan

spacetweek wrote:

Someday...

Good map man. You could include south down and most of armagh in that as well, although i'd leave Coleraine out of it!

mysterious

Nordydan. What is your obsession with building a high class road in another country(or whatever) I MEAN there is nothing wrong with the A5 as it is.


We have built good links to the border, and are now only catching up the North in terms of good infastructure, even still our regional roads SHOULD BE DONE, before (which I don't agree with building in the North and not any time soon) we started improving "A5" (which will not happen)

I mean why? if I was to agree with your point, then sure why not build in france, yes france I say!. It's the Norths fault for building super highways to the backend unionist areas like Coleraine and North Antrim and Portadown, when clearly they should have built a proper road to Ireland's biggest cites Like Derry and Dublin, It would have have enormous input to the N economy.


The T21 is not in full action, and you want this, my god, :eek: Let's take one step at a time here. Feck the A5. and feck the A1 The North dosn't have any interest in doing a proper job on them so why should we????


Take an example, Toombridge had well over 20,000 a day passing prior to bypass through on the A6, Tailbacks used to stretch to the Motorway and beyond. Crazy.

The dual carrigeway is ****e, it's like the enfield bypass with an extra lane. It has three roundabouts, steep curves, cheap, no grade seperate junctions, to near the village and is only a few miles in length. it's hideous.Not only this it goes straight back into the A6 two lane road for another few miles than to the M22 oh wait further on is the M2..:rolleyes:
Why could they not have just build straight from the M22 ? Oh wait you want Irish taxpayers money. If we can't fix our problems yet, why should we fix the North's problems(this is just the tip of the iceberg).. end rant.

why?

spacetweek

mysterious wrote:

The dual carrigeway is ****e, it's like the enfield bypass with an extra lane. It has three roundabouts, steep curves, cheap, no grade seperate junctions, to near the village and is only a few miles in length. it's hideous.

I agree the Toome bypass is rubbish, considering it's on the road linking the two largest cities in NI an at-grade dualler is inappropriate. It has more of a town distributor road feel to it. If that was in the Republic it'd probably be a motorway, especially considering they're now planning to finish the road as far as Derry eventually. If I was in charge I'd make it the inner ring and build a new proper bypass further out. I think, following the heady days of the 60s, they don't seem to think big in NI anymore.

BTW the gap between the Toome BP and the M22 is being dualled shortly.

mysterious

spacetweek wrote:

I agree the Toome bypass is rubbish, considering it's on the road linking the two largest cities in NI an at-grade dualler is inappropriate. It has more of a town distributor road feel to it. If that was in the Republic it'd probably be a motorway, especially considering they're now planning to finish the road as far as Derry eventually. If I was in charge I'd make it the inner ring and build a new proper bypass further out. I think, following the heady days of the 60s, they don't seem to think big in NI anymore.

BTW the gap between the Toome BP and the M22 is being dualled shortly.

cheers for the link, it's good to see the A6 to M22 being constructed, but the route itself is rediculous Not only does the Bypass look like a semi circle but the M22- A6 also swings nearly 180 too, talk about adding a few miles to the same journey:rolleyes: . I mean The toome bypass is basically a inner relief road, the speed on it could not pass 50 miles an hour considerin the lenght, curves, Roundabouts and accesses. Traffic at this section also carries all the major routes through all of Tyrone and Derry and Donegal (no reason why not to mention it) this traffic merges into Toome. Therefore it SHOULD be given graded interchanges.

But no they want a higher class road to Coleraine:rolleyes: