Academics say maths should attract more CAO points [article]

Raphael

smemon wrote:

so.... just because you like something doesnt mean every does. the majority of people don't like maths, therefore it would be idiotic to give it higher points as it would create a big divide.

english imo is the most important subject on the LC. it's the language we speak, the only fluent language we speak yet not many can master it.

upping the points in english would not only produce a higher standard of writing, it would also prove beneficial to the economy as spelling, letters, creativity increases.

but is that sensible - no. because people will neglect other subjects then. it gets too complicated if you go weighting subjects.... the system is fine the way it is.

Same point. Because you don't like something doesn;t mean that everyone else doesn't. That seems to be the aprt you have trouble with. I made my point in response to your saying "If maths were optional after JC no one would do it"

smemon

Funkstard wrote:

Yeh well done maths is dying, it isn't the driving force behind every recent/major technological innovation at all.

and the percentage of people which use it in life is ?????

not everyone are engineers or developers :rolleyes:

vast majority of people just need to add, subtract, divide, multiply and have a bit of cop on to get through life.

smemon

Raphael wrote:

Same point. Because you don't like something doesn;t mean that everyone else doesn't. That seems to be the aprt you have trouble with. I made my point in response to your saying "If maths were optional after JC no one would do it"

im basing my argument on the opinion of the majority, you're going with minority so i win

thank you for your co-operation.

DiscoMouse

Faerie wrote:

I used to be dead against continuous assessment because I didn't like the idea of having to work all year! But now I think it would be a good idea because my nerves have been getting to me so much this week. I think the leaving cert really is too stressful!!

Yeah, it's undoubtedly a better system. Unfortunately, just like the weighted mean idea, it's a total logistical nightmare. Either a pile of tests to be drawn up, or a bunch of state examiners employed 'round the year to randomly assess various schools. Boo

Raphael

smemon wrote:

im basing my argument on the opinion of the majority, you're going with minority so i win

thank you for your co-operation.

Ah, of course. smemon, the peoples champion, fighting the crusade against all those twats who enjoy learning.

RefulgentGnomon

smemon wrote:

and the percentage of people which use it in life is ?????

not everyone are engineers or developers

vast majority of people just need to add, subtract, divide, multiply and have a bit of cop on to get through life.

Hmm, two mistakes that I can see.
So, English is important, eh?

Naikon

Like it or not, maths is used in most aspects of daily life.

Many of the top jobs such as business consultants, computer consultants, airline pilots, company directors and a host of others require a solid understanding of basic maths, and in some cases require a quite detailed knowledge of maths.

You may think that you would like to program computer games as a job, but don't bother to do well at maths, you'll end up receiving lots of "Unfortunately you have been unsuccessful……" letters. Even though programming of computer games seems to be unrelated to maths, it is full of mathematical techniques such as effects of translation, rotation, symmetry, coordinate geometry, vectors, angles, bearings etc.

"Why do business consultants and directors need to know maths?" you may ask. Business is all about selling a product or service to make money. All transactions within a business have to be recorded in the Company accounts and quite often involve very large sums of money. So for example, you need to be able to estimate the effect of changing numbers in the accounts when trying to work out your expected performance for next year. Also businesses rely heavily on using percentages, in particular anyone who works as a sales person will need to be quick at mental arithmetic, approximation and in working out percentages. The more percentage discount you give a customer when you sell them a product, the less profit your company will make (and quite often the less you will be paid!) so it really does pay to know your maths.

You may think that pilots only need to know how to fly a plane. However, there are lots of other things which pilots need to be concerned with such as the air temperature, air pressure, air speed, altitude (height), rate of descent (speed when coming in to land), glide path (ideal angle to approach for landing) etc. Sometimes pilots will need to do calculations based on readings of certain instruments - familiarity with numbers and manipulating numbers quickly is very important here. Also, pilots will be expected to be able to navigate. This will involve calculating how far they will travel, how much fuel they will use, what bearings should be taken to reach their destination etc. You need to be competent at maths to work on the flight deck, if you are not you may be putting passengers lives at risk!

"Great, but what if I don't want a top job?" you may be asking. Well, look at a couple of examples of other jobs:

If you work as a sales assistant in many stores you now need to have the ability to calculate the cost of goods and change the customers require without using the till. Businesses like to know that you can cope if the machines break down and also they believe that you can give better customer service if you can respond to customers who know their maths. This is the stuff of letters which often appear in local newspapers as "…I bought 2 of the same item at Shop priced at 3 euro, and gave the young sales assistant a 10 euro note and a 1 euro coin expecting to get a 5 euro note as change and do my bit to help prevent the store from running out of change in the till. To my amazement the sales assistant insisted that I had paid too much, I tried to explain to no avail but in the end reluctantly took back my 1 euro coin and was given 4 more 1 euro coins as change…..".

If you work as a self-employed tradesperson e.g plumber, electrician, painter and decorator etc. then you will need to do business accounts and in some cases cater for VAT which needs to be added to the price of each job at the rate of 17.5 % . You will also be able to claim back VAT at the same rate from any materials you need to buy to do the job. You may also get customers who want a percentage discount - in this case you need to be able to work out a realistic percentage so that you don't end up doing the work for nothing! Some trades require you to know more maths than others. For example, An electrician needs to know that Voltage = Current x Resistance - so how does he work out resistance if he knows the Voltage and Current? By using maths - rearrangement of formulae to be precise.

Finally, there are jobs around where you can escape from using any maths at all - refuse collecter, builder's labourer, farm hand etc. However, when you invest your hard earned cash in the bank or building society or get a loan - how do you know that you are not being ripped off. You need to use maths to calculate compound interest rates (to see how much your savings can grow). You also need to use maths to understand the monthly percentages which are added to your credit cards or bank loans or you could end up paying 10,000 in 5 years time for borrowing 2,000 today! If this isn't a good reason to understand maths, I don't know what is.

In essence it is worthwhile to be decent at ordinary maths but i do agree honours maths is pointless unless you need it.
Even most programming only needs basic arithmic unless you are coding games or the like for example.
Leaving cert maths is outdated but it is more useful than learning poetry and Lear.

smemon

RefulgentGnomon wrote:

Hmm, two mistakes that I can see.
So, English is important, eh?

'that' followed by 'Everyone isn't an'

a genius can make mistakes, a genius is also able to correct his own mistakes

smemon

Naikon wrote:

Like it or not, maths is used in most aspects of daily life.

i dont dispute that. i do however dispute that x's and y's and square roots along with fractions to be squared... they are not used in daily life by the vast majority of people.

so i invest my cash in a bank - it doesnt take a genius to work out what the best deal is, you don't need LC maths for that, it's common sense, you just need to be able to multiply and divide.

im good at maths if it's explained properly and i listen to it, however like most people it bores the hell outta me and to date ive had no problems whatsoever with maths outside of school

i'll pass ordinary maths, maybe get a C which will do. reality is - i'll never use it again.

Faerie

Naikon

Most of the jobs you mentioned require the most basic maths taught in 6th class. I mean a farm labourer doesn't need to know Integration or trigonometry!
And you could argue that language is even more important - we need it to communicate! Articulate people, people who can write proper CVs and even people who can speak another language will go further in life!

Anyway this is all irrelevant. Just because maths is useful doesn't mean it merits higher points.

Naikon

Fair enough, I can see your point Smemon.
Even business consultants or the like dont need "differential calculus"
Maths is important but leaving cert maths is a bit of a joke along with most subjects if not all(irish for example isnt taught properly and isnt grasped simply by learning **** off, hence the fact that about 2% of the population speak irish.

Naikon

I understand langauge is very important but my writing skills and grammer and organisational skills and the like were not developed by using English so far in secondary school. Basically English in school apart from technical writing like cv,s ect is pointless. Poetry and the like is also useless.

Rockerette

Raphael wrote:

Rockerette: To tell you the truth, I'm just being deliberatly argumentative here. It beats studying for biology. =D. Sorry. I couldn;t really care about what changes they make, I'm finished

hehe yeah it doesnt really bother me either... i just love argueing... :rolleyes:







i think most of the maths course is a bit useless, and most of us dont use it everyday - no arguments about that


but sure, it doesnt kill us.. and we all know what the mammyies say, what doesnt kill you onyl makes you strong


its 2 years of our lives, i dont think anything on the LC will permanently scar us

Raphael

Grand so, was just getting afraid I was seriously pissing you off.

Rockerette

heh nah no dont worry, its just my bitchy exterior that sometimes gets the better of me

it doesnt really bother me!

Raphael

Well in that case, you're a dumb whore who wouldn;t know a difficult subject if it was doing her from behind with a mace

smemon

Raphael wrote:

Well in that case, you're a dumb whore who wouldn;t know a difficult subject if it was doing her from behind with a mace

i like your style

Rockerette

:cool:


why thank you

caesar

smemon wrote:

upping the points in english would not only produce a higher standard of writing, it would also prove beneficial to the economy as spelling, letters, creativity increases.

Smemon could you explain this to me

Chris_533976

As someone who has done a 4 year Physics degree let me just say that the standard given in Leaving Cert maths is nowhere near high enough for college courses like that. Not nearly enough.

whassupp2

4 years of physics??? you must love it. i hate it

smemon

caesar wrote:

Smemon could you explain this to me

as someone studies more english, their spelling improves.
i.e. when writing formal letters. (simple, but many people don't know how to write properly and get people to do it for them)

from studying english poetry and all that craic; it broadens the mind, potentially opening up a more creative side in an individual - which could lead to business ideas... inventions etc....

in general, people would grasp the language better and could communicate more efficiently, saving time, money etc....

more intelligent people = richer country. i dont believe maths can improve the average man on the street, only the wise man who will use it in a job. english is used 24/7 by everyone (well 99% of irish people).

Caryatnid

smemon wrote:

i disagree with this drivel.......<etc>.......
if maths was optional after JC, nobody would take it up. same as irish. :cool:

I disagree with this drivel. I could equally say that if any subject was optional after JC, nobody would take anything up. I think it is clear from the posters above that some people enjoy maths and/or are good at it and/or want to use it in their career. These would all be reasons that the statement
"nobody would take it up" ≠ true.

smemon

Caryatnid wrote:

I could equally say that if any subject was optional after JC, nobody would take anything up. I think it is clear from the posters above that some people enjoy maths and/or are good at it and/or want to use it in their career. These would all be reasons that the statement
"nobody would take it up" ≠ true.

obviously you'd get a few that take it up, dont take me literally

however as i canstantly say on this LC forum, you get the creme of the crop in general - a lot of intelligent A1 people aiming for big points. When you consider 20% of people are doing ordinary maths and 12% of ordinary students fail, it shows nobody (not literally) is interested in it and find it too difficult or a waste of time.

if somebody like maths or wants to do it - fine, no problem. but i'm saying the vast majority of irish students dont like it/ aren't good at it and that is proven by the statistics above.

im saying, given the choice of any 20 subjects and having to pick 6, maths would be near the bottom of that list in most people's view.

lostexpectation

so what was this about a confusing maths paper last week apparently a photogrpah was used instead of a diagram? which threw people off, it shouldn't matter to the maths but it threw people off, ok so they are trying to place maths in the real world or something but is the exam the right place to introduce that, totally new type of question. people described it as a trick


they are trying to get away from rote learning and have people think intuitively about maths problems well it would be ok if it was thought that way, the examples naiken gives are examples of being able to identify and wrap your head around numbers to deal with any problem not the guaranteed paper 2 question on alegbra etc,

I wonder how much time the average student spends on maths compared to other subejcts, from my higher class I saw it would be more then other subjects, so I say make maths easier not because of maths itself but to balance out the time the average students spends on that subject compared to others....


I don't know to me all the statistics point to it being too hard? in it present form of being taught and examined.

Raphael

But they can't make it less hard, or people won't have the standard required for university.

Funkstard

I didn't have a problem with the pyramid question at all (even though I got it completely wrong!)...it was a nice logical problem solving question, and if the maths course is made more like that then I'm all in favour of it. The part a) however....

lostexpectation

Raphael wrote:

the standard required for university.

but what does that mean?



if so few are doing it there some problem there arn't there?

Raphael

It means that if you;re doing a degree that requires honours maths then you need to know the honours maths course to do that. If they dumb down the maths course, then either those university courses are going to have to spend the first term/semester teaching people what used to be on the course, or students are going to have to do the work themselves.

You can't do LC maths without building on JC maths, university is the same. If you make one course easier, ou screw up everything higher in the ladder.