C.J. Haughey dead

dixiefly

I dont think he should.
I am not saying that he did not do good or a service to the country but it's just the fact the he took bribes while in the highest office in the land, failed to declare his income to the taxman and cheated on his wife for many years.

Haughey was more interested in what he could get for himself thab anything else. He must have cost the state millions in tribunal fees. He spent the last 40 years laughing at the ordinary irish people and at the same time as he was taking these bribes he was able to keep his Abbeyville mansion allowing it to appreciate signicicantly increase in value.

Let's save the money set aside for the funeral and use it to pay the fat cat lawyers that became millionaires as a result of his and his associates' shennagins.

Hmm_Messiah

I'm not sure he took bribes as such did h? As in money for wehich he then promised certain actions?? I think he lived a life closer to the french presidency, a make believe world which others facilitated.

I know he did significantly things as health Minister, and Finance minsiter for the elderly. He also promoted art and business in Dublin in ways which have revitalised the city centre.

shoul dhe have a state funeral. Ironically Conor Cruse O Brien said he didnt think so only on Sunday. However he was Taoiseach, elected to the Dail and supported in government. The government has offered a state funeral and the family accepted. I don't see it as any bad thing. Denying the man a state funeral would not in any way admonish him, he is dead after all! Its petty and childish to wield power or deny some one something simply when you can.

The is no doubt great hypocrisy in how he asked ireland to tighten its belt etc. But a death is not the time to regurgitate criticisms. He was a man, and all men deserves some respect in death, as do their families .

ronanp

dathi1 wrote:

As Harney said he was responsible for founding the economic boom of today.
Even Thatcher reluctantly admired him. Temple Bar, Free transport for the elderly, etc etc…

Well, if Harney and Thatcher were fans.......

crybaby

cheating on his wife has absolutley nothing to do with whether he deserves a state funeral or not

for all the dodgy things he was knee deep in, he did do alot of significant and important things for the country so yes give it to him

MadsL

The Govt. has offered a State Funeral, family accepted.

Neither have any sense of shame.

Sure am glad my taxes will pay for this crook's beatification. Disgrace.

Dirk Gently

The fact is he is going to get one. RTE have said that C.J. himself even planned the funeral route. It is disgusting to think someone as corrupt as him will get state honours.

The best response would be for citizens to stay away on Friday.
Looks like CJ will get the last laugh though, with a lavish funeral paid for by the ordinary people of this country with whom he had nothing in common.

gandalf

He should have died in Jail.

I do feel sympathy for his family.

dixiefly

Cheating on his wife in itself does not justify a poor and damming reflection on his life and times. However it is just one of a number of areas in which he has been proven to be a liar and a cheat. Neither he nor his family should be feted in the way the Bertie & co are planning to do.
Give the money it would cost to the Health services.

ISAW

clown bag wrote:

The fact is he is going to get one. RTE have said that C.J. himself even planned the funeral route. It is disgusting to think someone as corrupt as him will get state honours.

The best response would be for citizens to stay away on Friday.
Looks like CJ will get the last laugh though, with a lavish funeral paid for by the ordinary people of this country with whom he had nothing in common.

This is just a stupid discussion which panders to the best of gutter media trivial bottom dredging. You cant cahnge the law in two days to prevent ex Taoisigh getting a state funeral. Of course if the majority of people actually believed what you believe i.e. that the law is wrong then they would have changed it already wouldnt they. It is a unchangable fringe issue designed to promote vitriol and division. Tabliid stuff.

Avns1s

constitutionus wrote:

bollocks, im not a politician so why should i abide by his hypocritical standards! the man was a crook, and kennys not exactly mister squeaky clean either in his dealings.

Would you care to be more specific on the uncleanness of Kenny's dealings or is this another rant without any substance that I'm becoming more used to in these forums. The usual criticism of Enda Kenny is that his image is too squeaky clean for most. So perhaps you might give us the benefit of your knowledge of his "shady dealings"! It might help gain him support among those who think he's too "squeaky clean". Will be waiting with baited breath for your return post.

gandalf

Of course he shouldn't have a state funeral. His family should be made "tighten their belts" and fork out for his funeral themselves. The money can be better spent on the health of the people who did actually pay their taxes and helped keep this economy running in the 80's rather than a freeloader like Haughey.

RIP

On a slightly similar note, are the Irish Times implying something here?

Mr Ahern added that Mr Ahern's achievements "have become clouded by the revelations that are the subject of inquiry by the Moriarty Tribunal."

From here: http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2006/0613/breaking23.htm

ISAW

gandalf wrote:

Of course he shouldn't have a state funeral. His family should be made "tighten their belts" and fork out for his funeral themselves. The money can be better spent on the health of the people who did actually pay their taxes and helped keep this economy running in the 80's rather than a freeloader like Haughey.

Thats a seperate issue to whether he is entitled to one. One can argue that money is better spent on hospitals than the Arts or Defence as well. the point is that no matter what the argument about how money should be spent he is legally entitled to it.

constitutionus

Avns1s wrote:

Would you care to be more specific on the uncleanness of Kenny's dealings or is this another rant without any substance that I'm becoming more used to in these forums. The usual criticism of Enda Kenny is that his image is too squeaky clean for most. So perhaps you might give us the benefit of your knowledge of his "shady dealings"! It might help gain him support among those who think he's too "squeaky clean". Will be waiting with baited breath for your return post.

ok the rossport five. they say a week is a long time in politics, kenny disappeared for two months on this issue and then came out feigning support fro em. then it came out he orderd his brother to vote through the pipeline in the countly councill sitting on the issue . that murky enough for you?

The Corinthian

Haughey was a former, and influential, Taoiseach of Ireland.

If he had an affair bares no relationship to his political role. It’s not unusual and there are plenty of faithful crooks and philandering stalwarts in politics. I didn’t hear anyone whinging that Emmet Stag was corrupt on the basis that he was a fan of rent boys, after all. Stop being so fscking Anglo-Saxon.

While there were numerous allegations that have certainly tarnished his reputation and legacy, to date none of these have been proven criminal. This could be because he was being protected, or people in high places wanted to protect themselves or any other reason people here want to stamp their feet and talk crap about, but in the end he faced nothing more than a tribunal that quietly faded once the dull-eyed electorate had grown bored with it. Why do you think tribunals were invented?

On that basis he should be given a State funeral. And if you don’t like it, why don’t you go after the guys who allegedly covered up for him rather, seeing they can still be prosecuted? I’m sure they’d prefer you to go after a corpse instead and consider the matter closed.

constitutionus

sceptre wrote:

I read the thread as a suggestion, not a specific order to you or anyone else not hopping on a donkey masquerading as a high horse.

I believe you've made your point three times, getting less eloquent each time.

Personally I'll leave it for a day or two before reminding everyone of my specific views on Haughey's career and goings-on but that isn't because I was told to or anything because I wasn't and neither were you.

well its sounded like an order to me, and how you interpret things is your concern so quit the patronising manner

Dirk Gently

ISAW wrote:

This is just a stupid discussion which panders to the best of gutter media trivial bottom dredging. You cant cahnge the law in two days to prevent ex Taoisigh getting a state funeral. Of course if the majority of people actually believed what you believe i.e. that the law is wrong then they would have changed it already wouldnt they. It is a unchangable fringe issue designed to promote vitriol and division. Tabliid stuff.

What’s your point ISAW?

I gave my opinion which is that I think it is disgusting that C.J. should have a state funeral.

If law was everything then there would be no need to ask people’s opinion as all our opinions would be the same as law. It is my opinion that a man who lived a kings lifestyle, who lied and received money he did not earn should not be honoured by the state unless the state wishes to hold up corruption and self interest as admirable traits which we should all try to display.

Speaking of gutter media and tabloid trash, that’s what I would call all the false and forced mandatory "tributes" pouring in from other leaders. It's just what is expected from them and is no more than lip service. To say C.J. was a great man who deserves a hero’s funeral is wrong. Personally I don't think his death should get any more coverage than someone who dies in a road accident. More often than not people who die in road accidents are more honourable Irish people than C.J. ever was.

You seem to be content to argue that he is "legally" entitled to a state funeral, this doesn't mean that people can't disagree with that law.

Avns1s

constitutionus wrote:

ok the rossport five. they say a week is a long time in politics, kenny disappeared for two months on this issue and then came out feigning support fro em. then it came out he orderd his brother to vote through the pipeline in the countly councill sitting on the issue . that murky enough for you?

This is YOUR opinion. It may have been the best way of handling the issue to which there are TWO sides. Not everyone would support the stance of the Rossport five. Thats democracy!! Not MURKY at all!

So the question remains, give us evidence of real shady dealings or at least be man enough to admit that there aren't any or maybe it's you who is the real "coward"!!! It's very easy to come in here anonymously and mouth off with outragous statements particularly when people aren't here to defend themselves.

constitutionus

leagally he's entitled to one and theres no way around it. and with a fianna fail government theres no way its not going to happen. personally if we get the day off work i know where ill be and it wont be on the procession route:D

constitutionus

Avns1s wrote:

This is YOUR opinion. It may have been the best way of handling the issue to which there are TWO sides. Not everyone would support the stance of the Rossport five. Thats democracy!! Not MURKY at all!

So the question remains, give us evidence of real shady dealings or at least be man enough to admit that there aren't any or maybe it's you who is the real "coward"!!! It's very easy to come in here anonymously and mouth off with outragous statements particularly when people aren't here to defend themselves.

no its not my opinion, its what was reported in the news. its called being two faced and deliberatly missleading the public while acting through a third party to look after your business mates. And if disappearing off the edge of the planet when the biggest issue in your constituancy blows up in your face and the only thing that gets you to talk about it is when somone in your consitiuancy office calls the gardai on the wives of the rossport 5 when they waited 7 hours for you to turn up then yes, hes a coward!

Avns1s

constitutionus wrote:

no its not my opinion, its what was reported in the news. its called being two faced and deliberatly missleading the public while acting through a third party to look after your business mates. And if disappearing off the edge of the planet when the biggest issue in your constituancy blows up in your face and the only thing that gets you to talk about it is when somone in your consitiuancy office calls the gardai on the wives of the rossport 5 when they waited 7 hours for you to turn up then yes, hes a coward!

That claptrap belongs in a new thread where you can have the chance to discuss the truth not the propoganga so why don't you start a new thread...

While you're doing that we're still waiting for your evidence of Kenny's shady dealings. Well??.....

constitutionus

i just told you twice. or is doing one thing and saying another saintly practice on behalf of your lord enda? if you can prove he hasnt done any of this provide it!

Hobbes

You mean you won't be out to wave your brown envelope?

constitutionus

Hobbes wrote:

You mean you won't be out to wave your brown envelope?

silly boy, theyre all white now! (oooh could be racist that,will have to change it again )

Dirk Gently

Hobbes wrote:

You mean you won't be out to wave your brown envelope?

Now there’s an idea, have his coffin draped in a brown paper envelope instead of a tri-colour.

(Now you can accuse me of scraping the barrel ISAW)

trippy30

I dont see the relevance of a state funeral at all.

Maybe this should be the last one?

sceptre

constitutionus wrote:

well its sounded like an order to me

If you choose to interpret "maybe all boards members should do the same" as an order that's your own business.

quit the patronising manner

Now, that was an order. I hope we've all learned the difference today.

Now how about addressing the central issue of the thread or ignore the thread itself rather than asking people to prove that something unrelated to the central issue of the thread didn't happen (rather than putting it in a different thread where it belongs), I can read posts that don't make me patronising and we can all get on with an actual discussion.

Enda Kenny isn't a saint. Neither was Haughey. No-one's said they are/were. Nor are any of the people who post about either of them. I fail to see the relevance of the Rossport 5 to whether Haughey should be lambasted today or not and if it takes being patronising again to hammer that home then perhaps I'm not being patronising enough. The most convenient place to complain about that is here.

constitutionus

sceptre wrote:

If you choose to interpret "maybe all boards members should do the same" as an order that's your own business.


Now, that was an order. I hope we've all learned the difference today.

Now how about addressing the central issue of the thread or ignore the thread itself rather than asking people to prove that something unrelated to the central issue of the thread didn't happen (rather than putting it in a different thread where it belongs), I can read posts that don't make me patronising and we can all get on with an actual discussion.

Enda Kenny isn't a saint. Neither was Haughey. No-one's said they are/were. Nor are any of the people who post about either of them. I fail to see the relevance of the Rossport 5 to whether Haughey should be lambasted today or not and if it takes being patronising again to hammer that home then perhaps I'm not being patronising enough. The most convenient place to complain about that is here.

so when posters ask me to reply to their statements im to ignore em? fine by me.

trippy30

clown bag wrote:

Why? The most respectful thing I can do is not slag him off today.
Why do people who die suddenly get absolved of all the wrong they done?

My thoughts exactly.

Although more to the point, we should have 'nailed him' before now.

It feels too late, desperate and 'weak' to do this now.

Diaspora

Yes,

I want to see all his fellow travellers on another freebie; mind you it should pass by Dublin Castle en route to view both Temple Bar that he saved and the Revenue Commissioners that he betrayed