C.J. Haughey dead

dixiefly

dixiefly wrote:

The only reason I made that comment was in response to his in the first place. He questioned the need for a thread and I rightly pointed out that he need not be there. These things happen in discussion sites across the web. People are and should be allowed point out this sort of thing.

I'm merely pointing you both to the charter then.
READ it and abide by it-otherwise this place gets messy rather than being a good read.
We want it to be a good read(obviously) thats why we have a charter to make it a good read.
The fact that I used your post to point this out whilst at the same time directing the instruction to you both is immaterial.

Now carry on everybody-thank you.

Victor

classicsounds wrote:

With the death of Irelands foremost political leaders . We as a nation should be grief stricken.

No, deosn't work. About the only emotion I feel about him with any strength is apathy.

He served our country with great gusto.

Indeed, like a fine host, he served up the country to be carved up by his friends.

We would not have the celtic tiger only for his vision of social partnership.

Would that be the social partnership that predated his government? Or the Charvet-sack cloth social partnership? Or the 500 grand for Charlie and nothing for the haemophiliacs social partnership?

All the good he carried of for the O.A.P.'s of our land like the free travel and free TV licience.

Ah, yes. Who needs social services when the ould wans can sit on CIE services all day keeping warm and entertained.

Of note, Phoenix Magazine is out this Thursday. I wonder what their take will be.

DublinWriter

It’s funny how eaten bread is soon forgotten, and it’s even funnier how I find myself now actually defending Haughey. Maybe it’s true about the older you get the more conservative you become.

Where to start? Well how about here. There’s so many of you dancing on the guy’s grave right now that we might as well call it a Fheis Ceol and have done.

Crook. Criminal. Cheat. True, you could throw all those terms at him and they’d probably stick. But incompetent? No. A ditherer? Definitely not.

As a Minister, Haughey was direct and brutal to the point of arrogance. I somehow couldn’t see him commissioning umpteen reports at a cost of millions to the taxpayer when faced with some immediate and looming crises in the Health Sector.

We could spend the next year reeling off the things he did in Ministership – bringing the Irish Air Corps into the jet-age in late sixties, free travel, electricity and TV Licences for OAPS, the artists tax-exemption, abolishing the death penalty in 1963, the Succession Bill (removed discrimination against women in inheritance rights), and removing VAT from the sale of books.

As Taoiseach, the guy knew the power of the private sector. If it wasn’t for his close friendship with Dermot Desmond, we wouldn’t have the IFSC, and arguably, no Celtic Tiger. Sure, both profited from the deal, but down the line, all of us have profited.

Perhaps the jewel in his political Crown was his signing of the Anglo Irish treaty in 1985 or his appointment of Màire Geoghegan Quinn to a Ministership, the first woman Minster since Contance Markievicz. But that’s one for the academics surely.

As a Dubliner, he knew his heritage. Without him, the IFSC would be a cement cargo loading area and Temple Bar would be a gigantic garage for the servicing of Dublin Bus fleet.

He said himself in his parting speech to the Dàil in 1992 that he “did the state some service”, others say that he just basically “did the state”.

To those merrily chucking rocks in the glasshouse, consider the guy’s achievements in public office, his personal achievements of attaining a first, qualifying as a Chartered Accountant and then successfully passing his Bar Exams

If you still feel so inclined, smash happily away because in the fine Irish tradition of begrudging the successful, you’ll need to arm yourselves with a sackfull of rocks if you’ll need to make yourself feel better about the prospect of ever living a life as full or as rich as his.

Like him or loath him, the Ireland we know, love, and sometimes hate today was shaped by his hand more so than any modern politician.

Victor

DublinWriter wrote:

bringing the Irish Air Corps into the jet-age in late sixties,

This may have been a surprise to de Havilland who sold us several Vampire jets in or about 1956. Did it take several years for them to get here? Or were they merely waiting for Haugheys election three years later in 1959?

free travel,

Ah, yes, the CIE minding the old people and keeping them warm argument.

TV Licences for OAPS,

I'm sure the would have much preferred the cash or health care.

the artists tax-exemption,

Unique in the world.

and removing VAT from the sale of books.

Well, some books.

and arguably, no Celtic Tiger.

hahaahh, "its demographics stupid"

Perhaps the jewel in his political Crown was his signing of the Anglo Irish treaty in 1985

Really? Was he Taoiseach in 1986? At the same time as Garret?

As a Dubliner,...

... he was born in Mayo.

Temple Bar would be a gigantic garage for the servicing of Dublin Bus fleet.

In the meantime we still have no where to put the buses, the Central Train Station was never built, but at least we have 3 acres of pub space, street fighting to beat the band and the odd bordello.

Diorraing

Personally, while I think it was disgraceful that he was evading tax etc., that really wasn't to the detriment of the state. There's been a lot of hyperbole on this thread, him being referred to as a "gangster" amongst other names. All I'll say is were it not for the brave initiatives taken by Haughey in the late 80s and early nineties, chances are most of you people wouldn't have computers to be posting on. He is rightly being credited for sowing the seeds of not only the celtic tiger but also to a great extent the Northern Peace process. Lets not forget that Haughey was one of the first southern TDs to acknowledge the pogromming of the nationalist community in Northern Ireland during the arms crisis when Lynch stood idily by.
Dismiss him completely for his corrupt side all you want, but me, I look at the bigger picture and will remember him as one of the great Taoisigh.

Victor

Diorraing wrote:

All I'll say is were it not for the brave initiatives taken by Haughey in the late 80s and early nineties, chances are most of you people wouldn't have computers to be posting on.

But I thought it was Al Gore that invented the internet. Are you saying it was Haughey?

Jackie laughlin

It is a decent tradition in Ireland that we don't speak ill of the deceased until after the funeral. However, there is a difference between silence and the dreadful whitewash that has been going on. Ireland is plagued by political cynicism and this unwarranted praise will add to it. To have a state funeral for such a man mocks the citizens.

Our man in Havana

classicsounds wrote:

A Sad day for Ireland.

With the death of Irelands foremost political leader . We as a nation should be grief stricken. This man was man before his time He served our country with great gusto. We are all aware of his lifestyle and the wheeling and dealing that went on in 80's Ireland. And CJ's role in all of it. But lets not forget what Charlie has done for us. We would not have the celtic tiger only for his vision of social partnership. All the good he carried of for the O.A.P.'s of our land like the free travel, medical cards and free TV licience.

He will be sadly missed

Hear Hear! I would just like to second that. RIP.

parsi

Diorraing wrote:

Personally, while I think it was disgraceful that he was evading tax etc., that really wasn't to the detriment of the state.

You are joking right ? Not paying tax is detrimental to the State coffers. An elected representative not paying it is also detrimental to the whole democratic system.

Next time the bank contacts you about an overdraft see how lenient they will go for you Mr Joe Public. Will they write it off ? No. Why ? Because you aren't in a position to give the bank taxpayers money when they make a disastrous investment in ICI. We paid for that for many many years.

popebenny16

My first memory of him was around 1980 and the elections of 81/82. Like most of us, there were good things about him and bad things.

Good: Succession Act, Freebies to OAPs ('strue) IFSC, Temple Bar, Social Partnership ( i remember being very against it 20 years ago, you must get more radical as you get younger) and, his support of the Anglo Irish Agreement.

Cons: Temple bar - designed to be social/cultural, ends up what it is today. He has to bear some responsibility for it, he set up the scheme and the management of it.
Banks: I would love to have my overdraft written off like that
Tax: I would love to be able to not pay PAYE like what he did.
Donations: I'd settle for 6 mil and the fancy french shirts
Ango-Irish Agreement: His opposition to it, when in opposition
"Health cuts hurt the old, the sick, and the elderly"
the Golden circle

Consider the trickle down..... If the leader of the country is getting away with tax evasion so can you.... here's a single premium insurance policy, here's an offshore account. Close your eyes as you drive past Clondalkin/Blanch/Tallaght where people have been ghettoised in the worst housing stock in western europe as you bugger off to lodge some money in the Carribean

Wife: Terry Keane on the late late. Sweetie. To me the worst thing he could have ever done.

A generation is passing away before our eyes. Gogarty, Haughey, Lawlor, Burke is in exile forever, Flynn should be too.

The country was a basket case, the 80's were bleak, and there were vultures. Was he one of them? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

A bad time, when they've all gone (hello Bertie) we should try to make sense of it.

Hotblack Desiato

parsi wrote:

Will they write it off ? No. Why ? Because you aren't in a position to give the bank taxpayers money when they make a disastrous investment in ICI. We paid for that for many many years.

Except that was the FG/Lab coalition.
True, the 80's was indeed a bleak time but Haughey was in power for less than half of it.
It took two to tango us down the road to economic ruin - bad Government and bad Opposition - with the roles reversing several times. It's hard to believe how both FG and FF were obsessed in the early 80's with abortion referendums when the country was going to hell in a handbasket.

Digi_Tilmitt

If I lived in Dublin I'd stand with a brown envelope held high as the funeral went by.

The world is truly absurd to honour such a monster.

Cake Fiend

I'm rolling my eyes here at the rabid, wild-eyed tabloid-oids going on about how he was the son of Satan himself etc. The man was no saint by any stretch of the imagination, but let's not start ranting about him like foam-mouthed lunatics for Jesus' sake (he's a monster because he took some backhanders?? You can say that straight-faced about a man who dodged the taxman in a time when people like Saddam Hussein and George Bush are responsible for the torture and death of thousands?) :rolleyes:









...but I have to admit, I'm tickled pink by the idea that the best thing you could say about him is "well... he wasn't as bad as Hitler!"

sceptre

popebenny16 wrote:

and, his support of the Anglo Irish Agreement.

He said it was contrary to articles 2 and 3, FF voted against the agreement in the Dail and declared the unitary state option offered by the New Ireland forum as the only workable solution. Announcing his intention to renegotiate the agrement as soon as he came to power, he also added (paraphrasing) that by confirming the right of Northern Ireland to remain an integral part of the United Kingdom, the agreement would do serious damage in the eyes of the rest of the world to Ireland's historical and legitimate claim to unity of the state. That's hardly anywhere near support.

popebenny16

If you are going to quote me, do it in context:

I also said

Ango-Irish Agreement: His opposition to it, when in opposition

Under "cons", which is everything you've just said, in one line.

Thanks.

mike65

Seems whatever about the fanclub the general public has been underwhelmed by his passing. His lying in state was been poor box-office with only a few thousand lining up to check he really was dead.

Mike.

Dave!

Anybody see the report on RTE just there, covering his whole career? Started about 3.15pm. Brilliant stuff.

Dougals Daddy

We are wasting state money on the furneral of a scoundrel, while our health system lies in tatters.

constitutionus

surprise surprise the event went off with most people not caring a wit about it. interesting to note the thousand or so people who did turn up were either pensioners and constituants or the mates he looked after so well when he was in power. you know bankers, property developers , trade union leaders and of course the big business people and the barristers,judges and solicitors who gained so much in recent years from his activities.
the list reads like a who's who of the privilaged. when you look at the sheer number that turned out for the 1916 celebrations or hell even childers state funeral it makes this look like a plale hollow affair for people too out of touch with reality to be even taken seriously.
the media and the chattering classes have been trying to talk up this occasion since haugheys death, lionising the man ad nauseum yet now the emperor has been shown to have no clothes.the average person on the street didnt bother to go out of their way because quite honestly they didnt care. the best thing they can do now is just let it lie, and prehaps pay a little more attention to the dogs on the street next time they presume to tell us how we feel about someone.

constitutionus

constitutionus wrote:

interesting to note the thousand or so people who did turn up were either pensioners and constituants or the mates he looked after so well when he was in power. you know bankers, property developers , trade union leaders and of course the big business people and the barristers,judges and solicitors who gained so much in recent years from his activities.
the list reads like a who's who of the privilaged.

Where can I see this 'list'?

Jackie laughlin

The list of "worthies" at the funeral was published in the Irish Times on the following day. No surprises appear.

The Corinthian

constitutionus wrote:

the list reads like a who's who of the privilaged.

Privileged seems to be one of those words that is trotted out whenever people describe individuals who are better off than them. Of course they may be better off due to corruption or nepotism as is invariably implied, but it’s funny that no one ever considers the possibility that these people are better off because they worked hard and/or were talented - mediocrats never appear to consider this.

constitutionus

your right about people working hard to earn their money and i dont begrudge anyone that , unfortunetly i know first hand that talant and ability got you sod all in 80s ireland. it was like trotters trading on a national scale back then,particularly on the high up level. but your missing one thing here, privilege in its oldest form literally means "private law" and that embodies neatly the whole haughey era. one law for him and his golden circle and one for the little people (ie you). haughey never went down for anything and neither did his mates in the banks when they engaged in massive tax evasion or anyone else who had the ear of "the boss". in a very real sense the word privilaged can be used to describe the cronyism that was around then better than any other. they were a law unto themselves and they were never held accountable

and hasnt entirely disappeard now either, ivor calaley anyone?

DublinWriter

constitutionus wrote:

surprise surprise the event went off with most people not caring a wit about it. interesting to note the thousand or so people who did turn up were either pensioners and constituants or the mates he looked after so well when he was in power
...
the media and the chattering classes have been trying to talk up this occasion since haugheys death, lionising the man ad nauseum yet now the emperor has been shown to have no clothes.

It was all very embarrassing! They had the whole route to Sutton barracaded off for the 'thousands' who were supposed to be attending.

I wasn't there, but it reminded me a little of the footage of Hitler arriving in Paris in an open-top car and being greeted by empty streets.

Haughey only served in politics as long as politics served him. Look at the way Garrett Fitzgerald still remained a valued commentator and contributor in the media after his own retirement. Haughey bricked himself up in Kinsely, maybe worried perhaps about all the unanswered questions.

RTE interviewed a few of the locals and it was all "ah sure wasn't he a great man, he fixed that for me, and he fixed a job for her, and he looked after them" etc etc. That's how he operated, maybe because that's how we as a country operated at the time - it's all about who, not what you know.

Then again, the legacy lives on in his son. Remember the hissy-fit Sean threw in the media when Bertie didn't grant him a Ministership a few months back? He felt it was due to him because of "his length of time as a TD".

Sean also has a few akward questions to answer about Celtic Helicopters.

Someone started a thread here a while back asking if the media was out of touch. I'd say yes based on the acres of print media.

Interestingly, it's been mentioned that the sales of last Sundays papers were one of the lowest on record.

sceptre

popebenny16 wrote:

If you are going to quote me, do it in context:

I also said

Ango-Irish Agreement: His opposition to it, when in opposition

Under "cons", which is everything you've just said, in one line.

Thanks.

Ah. Missed that part, apologies. Without being patronising (which apparently I'm good at), you could have mentioned "when in government" but it's my fault for skim-reading.

As opposed to The New York Times which arguably implied that he negotiated the thing.

Victor

DublinWriter wrote:

Sean also has a few akward questions to answer about Celtic Helicopters.

Isn't it Ciaran Haughey was the director of Celtic Helicopters?

The Corinthian

constitutionus wrote:

your right about people working hard to earn their money and i dont begrudge anyone that , unfortunetly i know first hand that talant and ability got you sod all in 80s ireland. it was like trotters trading on a national scale back then,particularly on the high up level. but your missing one thing here, privilege in its oldest form literally means "private law" and that embodies neatly the whole haughey era. one law for him and his golden circle and one for the little people (ie you). haughey never went down for anything and neither did his mates in the banks when they engaged in massive tax evasion or anyone else who had the ear of "the boss". in a very real sense the word privilaged can be used to describe the cronyism that was around then better than any other. they were a law unto themselves and they were never held accountable

My objection is to your blanket damning of anyone who you appear to consider ‘privileged’. It would appear that while you have no objection with “people working hard to earn their money”, you assume that none of those who attended Haughey’s funeral did so. This is both presumptuous and offensive.

oscarBravo

constitutionus wrote:

... i know first hand that talant and ability got you sod all in 80s ireland.

By contrast, I know first hand that talent and ability got me started on a successful career, from humble beginnings, in 80's Ireland.

Jackie laughlin

Of course very few of those at the funeral are corrupt but the attendance was sprinkled with the well known characters from Tribunal Land.

constitutionus

constitutionus wrote:

unfortunetly i know first hand that talant and ability got you sod all in 80s ireland.

I agree. If only we put Charlie in charge from 1982 to '87.