Charles Haughey Has Died + Poll

mountainyman

Depart from us ye cursed into everlasting fire

Pigman II

"Deep down, a very shallow person"

constitutionus

"MARA!!!!!". obviously,:D

or

"here lies charley haughey, we think...."

the Shades

"he lies as he lived; beneath us"

um7y1h83ge06nx

Sleepy wrote:

Why does it mean you were brought up properly Ray777? Respect is something which must be earned, it is not an automatic privilige for anyone regardless of their state, condition or history.

Haughey got away with his crimes because he was afforded that respect which he didn't deserve.

"Evil prevails when good men don't act"

Great post!

Automatically handing respect to people in positions of power is in my opinion what led to the decades of abuse by the Catholic church, which is a little off topic but illustrates the point I think.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Ray777 wrote:

I don't use a person's death as an opportunity to immediately bitch about them.

True, I have always bitched about CJ!

the Shades

I don't see a person's death as a reason to immedately gloss over all the wrong they've done in their lives and proclaim them a saint. He was an extremely flawed character to suggest otherwise is naieve.

MrJones

he should get a state funeral. ok you can't gloss over all the wrong-doings he did while in office but cant ignore the fact that he served this country in public office for 40 odd years and he also did alot of good things for this country.

ChityWest

MrJones wrote:

he should get a state funeral. ok you can't gloss over all the wrong-doings he did while in office but cant ignore the fact that he served this country in public office for 40 odd years and he also did alot of good things for this country.

Couldnt agree more - who cares if he got his shirts from paris - he was the leader of the country and some people would have preferred him in dunnes t-shirts by the sounds of it.

Yes he had wealth and affairs but at least he had character and was a bit more interesting than garret fitzgerald. Who would you prefer a cad /rogue who got things done or an incompetent ****wit ?

Look at the likes of mary harney now ? Can you honestly say we would be better off with her in power ?

Plus he had a backbone - he actually spoke out about the british handling of the falklands - cant remember bertie standing up to blair over iraq in the recent past.

I think people can forgive a lot on the basis of results - and he put down the groundwork for a lot of results in the economy and in the peace process.

fuzzywiggle

He was a proper gangster alright

the Shades

ummm... totally unproven and surely it couldn't be true... but was his involvement in gun running part of the peace process?

ChityWest

fuzzywiggle wrote:

He was a proper gangster alright

No he wasnt. He just liked his bling.

nesf

I'm always amazed how people never seem to grasp that the reason one respects the dead is for that person's family and those close to them, not the person themselves or their past life. What you might say in private is your own business but what you should watch your tounge in public imho.

woodyg

I hate to put a dig in to a person that has just died or is dead,

but Charlie is a man i have no respect for due to his morales or complete lack off!

Dragan

nesf wrote:

I'm always amazed how people never seem to grasp that the reason one respects the dead is for that person's family and those close to them, not the person themselves or their past life. What you might say in private is your own business but what you should watch your tounge in public imho.

Why?

I would prefer to just be honest with everyone instead of say one thing to one person and one thing to someone else.

chump

I think it's right he gets a state funeral. Now I don't profess to know the ins and outs of his collection of misdeeds but from what I have heard and understood of the man, he worked very hard, he contributed significantly to our country, and led his government well. Of course it transpired he was lining his pockets while doing all this.

All said I don't think someone like me is qualified to appraise the character of the man, as I'm only 24, never dealt with the man directly (or suffered due to him) and only have garnered opinions from those who speak about him in the media and in general conversation.

Of course it seems people writing here have a much greater knowledge of the man.

darkman2

No-one should forget either that the IFSC would never have been built if it wasnt for him. He was the only one who could see the potential and thats one thing the man had: tremendous foresight. If ppl actually looked at the man properly and his political career instead of jumping to populist pre-mature opinion then they would see that he wasnt as evil as is being made out. The only thing that makes him more corrupt then any other political figure in this country is that ppl knew about it.

Dragan

darkman2 wrote:

No-one should forget either that the IFSC would never have been built if it wasnt for him. He was the only one who could see the potential and thats one thing the man had: tremendous foresight. If ppl actually looked at the man properly and his political career instead of jumping to populist pre-mature opinion then they would see that he wasnt as evil as is being made out. The only thing that makes him more corrupt then any other political figure in this country is that ppl knew about it.

True, and i don't think too many people are disgreeing with you....however to say the something like the IFSC never would have happened had he not been around is rubbish.

Ireland would have developed either way, "commeth the hour, commeth the man."

As for the bit about he was caught, yes he was, and i don;t care if he was more corrupt or less corrupt that anyone else. Simple fact is that he was corrupt, and as he pretty much got away with it the lesson was "you can be corrput and never have to pay the price for it!".

Like i said, i won't be forgiving him, or any other bent politician for there corruptions and there greeds.

If you want to settle for a "best of a bad lot" mentality then feel free.

cujimmy

I sincerely hope that he died roaring and may he forever rot / burn in hell

Maxwell

darkman2 wrote:

I am entitled to my point of veiw, now answer the question - what was he ever found guilty of?

Of course he wasn't found guilty and that is the problem.On that note - are ANY of our corrupt politicians going to be found guilty as they have the comfort of never ending tribunals? Haughey even got out of these. The same man who had the money (the country's ill gotten money by the way) to hire the best solictors to get him out of the tribunals. He got off on the fact that he was "too sick" to participate, but then a few weeks later is seen on his horse going around his "ill gotten" land.????

You were contradictory in your previous posts in that you mention he wasn't found guilty, but in the same paragragh mention that he was just like the rest of them.

He was a crook of the highest order and its a disgrace that he will never been brought to justice!

is_that_so

cujimmy wrote:

I sincerely hope that he died roaring and may he forever rot / burn in hell

I do hope people have nicer things to say about you when you pass on.

Maxwell

nesf wrote:

I'm always amazed how people never seem to grasp that the reason one respects the dead is for that person's family and those close to them, not the person themselves or their past life. What you might say in private is your own business but what you should watch your tounge in public imho.

The same family that have enjoyed the wealth received by the corrupt Haughey you mean?

Liam Lawlor didn't have a patch on this sad excuse of a man.

the Shades

unless cujimmy is planning on ripping off an entire country I'm certain they will

woodyg

hang on where are people getting the idea that Charlie was responsible for the development of the IFSC? the centre was mainly funded by the EU. The idea was floated about the government by a series of developers to build the centre.

nesf

Dragan wrote:

Why?

I would prefer to just be honest with everyone instead of say one thing to one person and one thing to someone else.

I'm not advocating lying. I'm saying that you should hold your tounge in public discussion versus private discussion with others. i.e. this is a public discussion it's viewable by anyone including his family. A chat with a friend over tea isn't.

shnaek

I cannot get over the vitriolic posts by some here regarding a man who I would bet none of them knew. It is beyond belief that so many would leap to judgement, and I suppose those that do are purer than pure.

For all that was wrong with the man, he was good for the country. He made decisions, unlike many in government who avoid that responsibility. If he had not been corrupt he would have been one of the best leaders this country had.

And let me be clear here, I do not condone corruption - and I believe Haughey did a lot for self gain. But to leap to judgement about someone in such a vicous fashion is not very honourable and not, I would hope, very Irish.

shnaek

DaveMcG wrote:

But what difference does it make? Hitler built lots of autobahn and so on :rolleyes:, doesn't mean he should get a monument for his good work...

http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Godwin's_Law

Argument lost.

Zascar

I cannot belive how much of a thrashing he is getting. Charlie Haughey did a LOT of good things for this country and really helped drag a backward country into the new age to be come a very well respected country for the size of us. Ireland would be way weay behind where it is if it wasn't for him. Yes of course he took backhanders along the way, but that was part and parcel of doing business in that time, and it if wasn't him in office, there would have been someone else taking all the money but probably not giving as much back into the country. He really helped changed this countrys focus from agriculture to business. So he led a high lifestyle and had a big house, but as people have already said, comparing him to Hitler etc is just plain ridiculous - just look at how much of the (3rd) world is currently run by dictators etc who really are a joke.

Of course he deserves a state funeral.

Originally Posted by DaveMcG
But what difference does it make? Hitler built lots of autobahn and so on , doesn't mean he should get a monument for his good work...

That is a compelely rediculous statement. Hiteler massacered millions of people. Charlie Haughey lined his pockets a little. No comparison.

Dave!

Zascar wrote:

I cannot belive how much of a thrashing he is getting. Charlie Haughey did a LOT of good things for this country and really helped drag a backward country into the new age to be come a very well respected country for the size of us. Ireland would be way weay behind where it is if it wasn't for him. Yes of course he took backhanders along the way, but that was part and parcel of doing business in that time, and it if wasn't him in office, there would have been someone else taking all the money but probably not giving as much back into the country. He really helped changed this countrys focus from agriculture to business. So he led a high lifestyle and had a big house, but as people have already said, comparing him to Hitler etc is just plain ridiculous - just look at how much of the (3rd) world is currently run by dictators etc who really are a joke.

Of course he deserves a state funeral.


That is a compelely rediculous statement. Hiteler massacered millions of people. Charlie Haughey lined his pockets a little. No comparison.

Depends whether you think the good he did outweighs the bad, or not.

I'm not "comparing" him to Hitler, it's a f*cking analogy.

Hitler did some good, he did alot of bad
Haughey did some good, he did alot of bad

Tadahhh, analogy explained!

nubbintom

Let me get out my over-sized clown hanky and wipe away the tear's.

Zascar

shnaek wrote:

I cannot get over the vitriolic posts by some here regarding a man who I would bet none of them knew. It is beyond belief that so many would leap to judgement, and I suppose those that do are purer than pure.

For all that was wrong with the man, he was good for the country. He made decisions, unlike many in government who avoid that responsibility. If he had not been corrupt he would have been one of the best leaders this country had.

And let me be clear here, I do not condone corruption - and I believe Haughey did a lot for self gain. But to leap to judgement about someone in such a vicous fashion is not very honourable and not, I would hope, very Irish.

very well said

Dragan

Once again guys, i am not disputing what he may or may not have done for the country.... call me old fashioned but i just find it hard to forgive people who lie there way in to office and operate with no integrity.

Silly me.:rolleyes:

semidefinite

darkman2 wrote:

If ppl actually looked at the man properly and his political career instead of jumping to populist pre-mature opinion...

Actually I think that, in the coming years, the populist opinion will be to look back at his life and career with rose-tinted glasses. After all, we're all wealthy now thanks to him, aren't we?

It seems that many here are either suffering from collective amnesia or grew up in the 1990s and have a vague romantic notion of the 1980s based on having seen the Wedding Singer. Does nobody recall the level of Haughey's hypocrisy when he told us and our families that we were "living beyond our means" and needed to "tighten their belt", while he lived a lavish lifestyle far beyond his means on the backs of PAYE tax-payers? For many of us, his pretensions to being an aristocratic landlord who presided over his poor "tenants" were difficult to swallow. The idea, which has been suggested here, that everyone loved him is absolutely ludicrous.

It's true that some of his government's policies lead to changes in the Irish economy in the 90s, but do people really think that this was a charitable exercise? It was Haughey's supporters who initially benefited from tax changes and rezoning (particularly in Dublin). Needless to say, the same politicians, businessmen, land-owners and developers have benefited massively since then. If we're examining recent economic history, it should be noted that the EU played a far greater role in improving our lot. As for those incessantly citing the IFSC, have you been there recently? Many of the prime properties there lie idle now that the tax incentives have expired.

Haughey's own example - success through underhand dealings and flouting the law - has been replicated at every level in Irish society since his time. Is it really too much to expect an Irish politician to be competent and honest? Or, at heart, is his desire to aquire wealth and status using any means necessary something we all aspire to now?

While I have sympathy for his family, I can't help but feel cheated that this man was never brought to justice. It seems that so many "great" men manage to escape being brought to task for the wrong-doings perpetrated during the prime of their lives.

The Clown Man wrote:

We was still wrong but I don't care. I'm too happy with my nice car, nice house and massive TV.

Proof, if any were needed, that Haughey's legacy of unbridled egotism and selfishness truly lives on.

CiaranC

For all that was wrong with the man, he was good for the country. He made decisions, unlike many in government who avoid that responsibility. If he had not been corrupt he would have been one of the best leaders this country had.

Its already been pointed out, but tenous links to economic success do not magicially excuse everything wrong about a political figure.

The man was a scumbag, and no amount of hand wringing by FFers here will change that perception in the publics mind.

darkman2

cujimmy wrote:

I sincerely hope that he died roaring and may he forever rot / burn in hell

This is twisted. TBH anyone who says that about anyone deserves to die roaring themselves.

6th

we on the paranormal forum deal with the dead all the time .... just hope this cnut doesnt show up over there!

Zascar

darkman2 wrote:

This is twisted. TBH anyone who says that about anyone deserves to die roaring themselves.

Exactly. Reminds me of the thread when that guy did mushrooms and tragiclly died when he jumped off a balcony. There were dozes off people saying he 'deserved to die'... - absolutely discusing carry on if you ask me.

DaveMcG

DaveMcG wrote:

Apparantly you're not familiar with the concept of analogy...

I am perfectly familiar with it.

There is a particular rule about Hitler analogies in internet debates with which you may not be familiar. If you don't know it, try

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

CiaranC

The point stands. Some of the most despicable political figures have been responsible for economic success, it doesnt excuse their actions or make them any less vile.

Dragan

Not saying that comparing CJ to Hitler is apt, but you are using Godwins law for your own reasons, which are not actually what Godwins law is about.

The fact that the comparison occurs does not question it validity, so quoting the law does not question it's validity either.

"Godwin has stated that Godwin's Law does not dispute whether, in a particular instance, a reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be apt"

Godwins law merely states that the longer an online discussion occurs the better the chance of someone using a Hitler comparison.

Logically, a law stating that the longer and online discussion occurs the greater chance the one of the participants will eat an orange.

As long as the discussion remains open, any action will be likely to occur, and if you take the ratio potential of any act occur, it will be more likely to occur in a longer time frame.

It's basic logic.

Maybe i can have a law :

Dragan's Law "Upon the occurance of Godwins Law, the longer the relevant online discussion remains acive the greater the chance that someone will misinterpret Godwins Law."

Thats it.

Okay, if you show me that Haughey was involved in acts of genocide, and maybe 6 million bodies, I will consider the analogy apt. I mean, it may certainly be apt for Pol Pot or Saddam.

On the other hand if it's just the AIB debt and charvet shirts stuff again, frankly I think the comparison ludicrous and Hitler analogies just make light of the Final Solution and the Third Reich. The comparison is completely invalid.

As a matter of interest, Tony Blair and his party got a million from Bernie Ecclestone during the smoking debate. Anyone know if the British have spent the intervening years wailing and gnashing their teeth and raging against the injustice of it all?

CiaranC

The point is exactly as I just posted, which you chose to ignore.

Some of the most despicable political figures have been responsible for economic success, it doesnt excuse their actions or make them any less vile.

We are all well aware that there is no direct comparison between Haughey and Hitler, the comparison is one of corrupt leaders who had economic success. Pretending otherwise is typical FF doublespeak.

CiaranC

CiaranC wrote:

Some of the most despicable political figures have been responsible for economic success, it doesnt excuse their actions or make them any less vile.

On the other hands some of the nicest political figures, like Garrett Fitzgerald, have been completely useless at leading the country. It didn't remotely improve their ability to govern.

And frankly in any democracy I'll take good government by a fellow on the take over crap government by a saint any day...

jaggeh

"you see that bridge, i helped build that bridge. But im not known as the bridge builder"
"You see that house, i helped build that house. But im not known as the house builder"
"But you **** one goat......"

jaggeh

jaggeh wrote:

"But you **** one goat......"

CiaranC

Deleted User wrote:

On the other hands some of the nicest political figures, like Garrett Fitzgerald, have been completely useless at leading the country. It didn't remotely improve their ability to govern.

And frankly in any democracy I'll take good government by a fellow on the take over crap government by a saint any day...

Its interesting to view the thought processes invloved in morally justifying oneself in supporting a criminal thief like Haughey up close. You remind me of a Mugabe supporter or something, Im sure its the exact same process.

Thanks.

MisterAnarchy

Deleted User wrote:

On the other hands some of the nicest political figures, like Garrett Fitzgerald, have been completely useless at leading the country. It didn't remotely improve their ability to govern.

You obviously dont know your history,Garret Fitzgerald was a very important figure in the success our economy is enjoying now.

Giblet

He took what was given to him by businessmen, he wasn't picking the pockets of the common irishman although he was a bit of a rogue. I wonder how many of you know exactly what he did for the country?

He had a lot of balls, didn't take crap from people like MT, told her what he thought of her. What about medical cards, free travel for the OAP? Getting american business back into Ireland?

The opposition raised a lot of questions, which is what the opposition do... It feels like a lot of people use this to criticise him because of this without question, more now than before.

CiaranC

:rolleyes:

Giblet

I'm sorry, I was too busy counting the clicks it takes to ban someone. What was that Ciaran

Oh yeah.

2.

It's 2

If you don't want to add a proper reply then don't.