Haughey and UCD

Chakar

AngelofFire wrote:

Some of his families assets should be liquidated to pay back the money he owes the tax payer. If my relgion didn't require me to have respect for the dead, id say haul his coffen up and put it in a cell in mountjoy prison for 2 years.

Chris *tut* *tut*

Chinafoot

I hate this never speak ill of the dead crap. (No offence to anyone, just an opinion)

Just because someone is dead doesn't change anything they did when they were alive. Should we al be nice about Hitler too just because he's dead?!

Not only did he get a statesman's funeral (what a fúcking joke) but they have it on Bloomsday.... :rolleyes:


This country never ceases to amaze me.

Mr.Nice Guy

peachypants wrote:

I hate this never speak ill of the dead crap. (No offence to anyone, just an opinion)

Just because someone is dead doesn't change anything they did when they were alive. Should we al be nice about Hitler too just because he's dead?!

Not only did he get a statesman's funeral (what a fúcking joke) but they have it on Bloomsday.... :rolleyes:


This country never ceases to amaze me.

Agree 100%. This seems to be a uniquely Irish thing. Makes me even more grateful that Mussolini wasn't from Ireland.

"Hey did ya hear that f*cker Mussolini is dead? Apparently his rotten corpse was kicked around the streets a few hours ago. I'm glad the c*nt is dead."

"Ah now to be fair to him he did make the trains run on time. There'll be other times to talk about the guy."

(Sigh)

panda100

peachypants wrote:

I hate this never speak ill of the dead crap. (No offence to anyone, just an opinion)

Just because someone is dead doesn't change anything they did when they were alive. Should we al be nice about Hitler too just because he's dead?!

Not only did he get a statesman's funeral (what a fúcking joke) but they have it on Bloomsday.... :rolleyes:


This country never ceases to amaze me.

I do see what your saying but primarily he is a husband,father, grandfather,brother and son and whatever we may think about him, those people loved him.So it is just respectful to those who he left behind to honour their mourning period. So while I agree that people who did bad things in life should be named and shamed I think its just nice for his loved ones for him not to be still warm in the grave before the public slagging of his life begins.

Sangre

Somehow I think their vast wealth will comfort them in this troubling time.

panda100

Sangre wrote:

Somehow I think their vast wealth will comfort them in this troubling time.

It was him who did all the bad stuff not his wife or his sons and daughters.You cant choose your family and despite all his shortcomings they loved him so we should indeed have a bit of respect for their grief at the moment. History wont be kind to Charles Haughy like its not kind to any criminals so the family should just be given this space for a man who was human to them and not just a politicain

rainbow kirby

For the things he did, he didn't deserve a state funeral or to really be honoured by anyone other than his family.

Mr.Nice Guy

panda100 wrote:

I do see what your saying but primarily he is a husband,father, grandfather,brother and son and whatever we may think about him, those people loved him.So it is just respectful to those who he left behind to honour their mourning period. So while I agree that people who did bad things in life should be named and shamed I think its just nice for his loved ones for him not to be still warm in the grave before the public slagging of his life begins.

But you forget his loved ones asked for a State funeral which made the whole thing into a public matter.

If we are to be inundated with images and comments from the State funeral then we are entitled to comment on it just as much as the RTE commentators, Ahern, McAleese etc.

I think it's clear to a lot of people that there is a revisionist agenda at the heart of all this.

Chinafoot

panda100 wrote:

the family should just be given this space for a man who was human to them and not just a politicain

Then the family shouldn't have had a televised, state funeral.

humbert

peachypants wrote:

Then the family shouldn't have had a televised, state funeral.

good point, it's spitting in the face of anyone who would like to see some accountability in Irish politics.

panda100

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

But you forget his loved ones asked for a State funeral which made the whole thing into a public matter.

If we are to be inundated with images and comments from the State funeral then we are entitled to comment on it just as much as the RTE commentators, Ahern, McAleese etc.

I think it's clear to a lot of people that there is a revisionist agenda at the heart of all this.

I didnt realise all that.All I was tring to explain was that at the end of the day there dad/husband/brother has just died from cancer and everyone no matter what they have done in life deserves for their loved ones who are left behind to have a grieving period,even just for a week or two, before people start telling them how evil/coniving/criminal he was. Dont you think that fair?

panda100

peachypants wrote:

Then the family shouldn't have had a televised, state funeral.

I cant speak for the family and why they would have wanted this.All I was saying that I think that there should be a bit of decorum and deceny towards someone who is not even a week dead,while wounds are fresh for many who he was close too.

Chinafoot

panda100 wrote:

I didnt realise all that.All I was tring to explain was that at the end of the day there dad/husband/brother has just died from cancer and everyone no matter what they have done in life deserves for their loved ones who are left behind to have a grieving period,even just for a week or two, before people start telling them how evil/coniving/criminal he was. Dont you think that fair?

But again panda, they shouldn't have had a televised funeral if they expected that.

There are a hell of a lot of people in this country with an opinion on that man and people are free to comment all they like. Why shouldn't we be?

Like MNG said, the population of this country have been swamped with images and commentary of his funeral over the past 2 days. He was not held accountable for his crimes and now he's dead we should all hush up because "ah sure, he wasn't that bad and sure the poor fella's dead now." :rolleyes:

Like I said before, just because he's dead doesn't change what he did during his life. Nor does should it change people's opinion and their right to voice that opinion.

Panda100 wrote:

I cant speak for the family and why they would have wanted this.All I was saying that I think that there should be a bit of decorum and deceny towards someone who is not even a week dead,while wounds are fresh for many who he was close too.

Sorry but I think you're being slightly dramatic there. We're hardly standing on the front lawn of the Haughey family while saying all this. We are voicing our opinion on an internet forum. His family are not being abused.

I will give respect to the dead if they deserved it during their life. Just because Haughey is dead doesn't make him automatically entitled to it.

Mr.Nice Guy

panda100 wrote:

I didnt realise all that.All I was tring to explain was that at the end of the day there dad/husband/brother has just died from cancer and everyone no matter what they have done in life deserves for their loved ones who are left behind to have a grieving period,even just for a week or two, before people start telling them how evil/coniving/criminal he was. Dont you think that fair?

I've not heard the family complain about anything that has been said. As has been explained to you, it was the family who chose to have a State funeral and to have their grief be made part of a public event so I wouldn't pay much attention to any complaints should the family make any.

This isn't about the family remember - it's about Haughey. A public figure who was given a public funeral at the public's expense.

Why should I or anyone else for that matter observe some undetermined period of respect for a guy who didn't respect the people who he was meant to represent?

Blush_01

Don't forget that we not only paid for the funeral, but we also paid all the state officials to go to it. Even in death Haughey was humping us. I'd love to know what kind of a reception we paid for. I'll bet it wasn't MSG laden packet vegetable soup and dried out tinned salmon sandwiches.

The fact that his family may have loved him, or may have publicly supported him doesn't change what he did to the nation, nor does it change how he treated his wife. Good little politician's wife and daughter, there was no way she'd split with him, regardless of where his wick was dipped. Anyone in Dublin in the 70s (which, granted, wasn't any of us) will remember his yellow Jag and the string of prostitutes he "never met". I do feel sorry for his family on one level, but they chose the publicity, and were no strangers to who he really was. If they knew it was coming (and they had to have known) then why should we all pretend he was the saint he wasn't?

panda100

I totally see what you two are saying. I was just trying to reply to when peachy said she doesnt understand the respect for the dead thing. I agree with you that we should never forget the evil deeds someone has done in life just because their dead.However,I think the media has acted justly (for once) this week.They havent said anything too hurtful or vindictive about a man who has just died. What mng and peachy seem to be applying is that the media and news should have been just filled with only all the atrocities that this man carried out?Im not saying that we,on this internet forum cant say anything we want about him,I was talking about how it was handled in the mainstream press. Would it have been fair after just a couple of days of his death just to critisce,critisce,critisce like we did in this thread?As I said History will remember Charles Haughy for what he was and it was only right for rte and the mainstrem media to give his many friends and family a bit of comfort in the reporting of his life before the critiscisms begin...

Jonny Arson

peachypants wrote:

Just because someone is dead doesn't change anything they did when they were alive. Should we al be nice about Hitler too just because he's dead?!

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Agree 100%. This seems to be a uniquely Irish thing. Makes me even more grateful that Mussolini wasn't from Ireland.

"Hey did ya hear that f*cker Mussolini is dead? Apparently his rotten corpse was kicked around the streets a few hours ago. I'm glad the c*nt is dead."

"Ah now to be fair to him he did make the trains run on time. There'll be other times to talk about the guy."

(Sigh)

You can attempt to argue your point of view all you like but by using those names in order to convey your argument does neither of you any favours one single bit.

I was no Haughey fan but the manner in which I've heard many people speak about him since his death has been absolutely vile, I've heard some really disgusting comments. I feel sorry for him over his painful death, I feel sorry for his family for losing someone close but I'll never feel sorry for the way in which he corrupted the people of our nation. However the man did do alot of good for our nation and sadly he destroyed whatever good he did by being corrupt. What gets on my nerves the man has been getting worse vocal treatment from people since his death than most murderers do, that's inexcusable and IMO is an immense contradiction and says alot about the ''great Irish people''.

panda100

Blush_01 wrote:

Don't forget that we not only paid for the funeral, but we also paid all the state officials to go to it. Even in death Haughey was humping us. I'd love to know what kind of a reception we paid for. I'll bet it wasn't MSG laden packet vegetable soup and dried out tinned salmon sandwiches.

?

C'est la vie!We pay for a lot of crap we dont need.Its not just the goverment that fleece us.....

humbert

panda100 wrote:

C'est la vie!We pay for a lot of crap we dont need.Its not just the goverment that fleece us.....

I feel so much better about it now!

panda100

Zane from MTV2 wrote:

You can attempt to argue your point of view all you like but by using those names in order to convey your argument does neither of you any favours one single bit.

I was no Haughey fan but the manner in which I've heard many people speak about him since his death has been absolutely vile, I've heard some really disgusting comments. I feel sorry for him over his painful death, I feel sorry for his family for losing someone close but I'll never feel sorry for the way in which he corrupted the people of our nation. However the man did do alot of good for our nation and sadly he destroyed whatever good he did by being corrupt. What gets on my nerves the man has been getting worse vocal treatment from people since his death than most murderers do, that's inexcusable and IMO is an immense contradiction and says alot about the ''great Irish people''.

I couldnt agree more and im no haughey fan.Its disgusting comparing him to Hitler and Mussollini. People who murdeded and slaughtered millions of innocent people,Not even Haughy deserves those sort of comparisons.

scop

This country beggers belief at times, talk about a whitewash. Anyway, if nothing else it served as a reminder of how powerful the media can be, in this case literally ignoring any negativity surrounding Haughey. A state funeral, that one really pisses me off, it has been reserved for Presidents, Taioseach, and heroes in the past, and now CJ gets one? Nuts. I do believe he had good points, but at the same time he did not deserve a state funeral.

Mr.Nice Guy

panda100 wrote:

What mng and peachy seem to be applying is that the media and news should have been just filled with only all the atrocities that this man carried out?

No, my problem is that the media are totally ignoring the 'atrocities' the man has done and that he is being depicted as some sort of lovable rogue/tragic hero etc. He was neither.

He was a chancer and a national disgrace. If the media wish to revise Haughey's legacy (and I believe that is their agenda) then others such as myself are entitled to challenge this false view.

Zane from MTV2 wrote:

You can attempt to argue your point of view all you like but by using those names in order to convey your argument does neither of you any favours one single bit.

That's not fair. Peachy and myself were making the point that only in this country do we require this period of immunity if you will for bad characters. It is thus entirely acceptable I would argue to compare our country to other countries and to look at how they deal with their respective national disgraces.

panda100 wrote:

I couldnt agree more and im no haughey fan.Its disgusting comparing him to Hitler and Mussollini.

No one did that. Comments have been made on how other countries react to the deaths of their disgraced politicians.

I myself believe it more accurate to regard Haughey as Ireland's answer to Richard Nixon.

Jonny Arson

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

That's not fair. Peachy and myself were making the point that only in this country do we require this period of immunity if you will for bad characters. It is thus entirely acceptable I would argue to compare our country to other countries and to look at how they deal with their respective national disgraces.

Personally I don't see how using Hitler and Mussolini as examples for a comparison as to how our nation deals/treats national disgraces can be anyway legitimate. Hitler and Mussolini were two of the most evil paracites to ever step on the face of this earth with their barbaric treatement of humans, Haughey may have been a disgrace but he's a pussycat compared to those two fuckers. There is absolutely no just reason for possibly using their names in a similar manner or sentence as Haughey.

I'll quote you again, I think you got way to excited here.....

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Agree 100%. This seems to be a uniquely Irish thing. Makes me even more grateful that Mussolini wasn't from Ireland.

"Hey did ya hear that f*cker Mussolini is dead? Apparently his rotten corpse was kicked around the streets a few hours ago. I'm glad the c*nt is dead."

"Ah now to be fair to him he did make the trains run on time. There'll be other times to talk about the guy."

(Sigh)

you may have been trying to portray your opinion on our nations grey views on Haughey but if you wanted to make your case clearer surely you would have used another corrupt politician as an example? That was a harsh post IMO.


Mods: I can't see how this thread is relevent to the forum, may need lockage me thinks.

Mr.Nice Guy

Zane from MTV2 wrote:

Personally I don't see how using Hitler and Mussolini as examples for a comparison as to how our nation deals/treats national disgraces can be anyway legitimate.

Of course it's legitimate as when it comes to national disgraces, those guys can't really be topped. In fact, the reason I myself used the example of Mussolini was because I know that any time Hitler is mentioned, people rush to try and invoke Godwi's Law.

Zane from MTV2 wrote:

I'll quote you again, I think you got way to excited here.....

you may have been trying to portray your opinion on our nations grey views on Haughey but if you wanted to make your case clearer surely you would have used another corrupt politician as an example? That was a harsh post IMO.

I assure you I was perfectly calm when I wrote that. You seem to have understood that the point I was making was that this country tends to be far more forgiving when a shamed political figure dies so as far as I'm concerned, my point has been taken on its merits.

As I've already made clear, I don't put Haughey on the same level of a Fascist dictator. That would be plain silly. My gripe is the way this country brushes over the bad things a person has done when said person has left this world.

It seems to be a common theme in this country. Charles Stewart Parnell was forgiven for his extra-marital affairs when he died. The 1916 rebels were forgiven for helping destroy the city when they died. Bobby Sands and the other hunger strikers were forgiven for their IRA crimes when they died. I just think it's an Irish thing to forgive and forget when someone dies.

(And for the record I don't regard Haughey as on the level of anyone mentioned above either. )

Chinafoot

Ah here zane. I was merely highlighting the fact that this whole "never speak ill of the dead" tradition is a load of crap and that people shouldn't be suddenly absolved of all their sins just because they're dead.

It may have appeared slightly extremist but the point still stands. Why shouldn't we "speak ill of the dead" if what they did during their lifetime was criminal? Or does that only apply to people who haven't killed anyone? Or just to people who lie in Ireland? Haughey shafted this country and reaped the rewards. He was never brought to justice for his crimes, and like Blush said, even in death he's screwing us.

Explain to me why I should give respect to Haughey simply because he's dead.

panda100 wrote:

Its disgusting comparing him to Hitler and Mussollini.

I didn't compare him to Hitler at all. I was making the point that the tradition of respect for the dead no matter what they did is bull.

panda100

I see what ye are all saying here.I suppose its one of those controversial isssues where you cant please everyone i.e should there have been a state funeral or not. Im undecided but I do hope the days of the corrupt Irish politican have gone but alas I fear not.
Anyway,Im glad for one that there will not be a physical remembrance of Charles Haughy in UCD even though I do think its out of order someone scratched his name off that list in the arts block

panda100

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

It seems to be a common theme in this country. Charles Stewart Parnell was forgiven for his extra-marital affairs when he died.

So he had an affair,so what!He did enormous good for this country and having a relationship outside marriage should not over shadow all the great things he did in his life.Without Parnell we would still be renting land off English landlords. Also History hasnt forgotten he had an affair.This was quite prominent in my leaving cert text books,wrongly so I think. That was his personal life and should have stayed as thus,It doesnt make him any less of a brilliant man who did more to change land reform and irsh home rule in this county then anyone else ever did.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

The 1916 rebels were forgiven for helping destroy the city when they died. ()

So that all the 1916 rebels did eh,was destroying the city?If it wasnt for them you would still be typing in England mate not your own independent country?I cant believe you think those men who gave up their lives for our independence should be chastised for putting a few holes in the gpo?Id rather loose a couple of buildings then my right to my own nationality.

I see your points about Haughey but those two examples are just mad!

Mr.Nice Guy

panda100 wrote:

So he had an affair,so what!He did enormous good for this country and having a relationship outside marriage should not over shadow all the great things he did in his life.Without Parnell we would still be renting land off English landlords. Also History hasnt forgotten he had an affair.This was quite prominent in my leaving cert text books,wrongly so I think. That was his personal life and should have stayed as thus,It doesnt make him any less of a brilliant man who did more to change land reform and irsh home rule in this county then anyone else ever did.


So that all the 1916 rebels did eh,was destroying the city?If it wasnt for them you would still be typing in England mate not your own independent country?I cant believe you think those men who gave up their lives for our independence should be chastised for putting a few holes in the gpo?Id rather loose a couple of buildings then my right to my own nationality.

I see your points about Haughey but those two examples are just mad!

Panda are you drunk tonight or what? Read the last line of my sentence in my last post - "And for the record I don't regard Haughey as on the level of anyone mentioned above either."

Did you miss that? I have an admiration for Charles Stewart Parnell and for the 1916 rebels and to a certain extent for Bobby Sands.

The reality remains however that these people were criticised when they were alive and were only praised when they died. Same goes for Tone, Emmet and the countless other martrys that exist throughout Irish history.

Please don't put words in my mouth for f*ck's sake. :rolleyes: I'm particularly incensed at this bit:

So that all the 1916 rebels did eh,was destroying the city?If it wasnt for them you would still be typing in England mate not your own independent country?I cant believe you think those men who gave up their lives for our independence should be chastised for putting a few holes in the gpo?Id rather loose a couple of buildings then my right to my own nationality.

What the f*ck are you talking about? I'm not against the 1916 rebels. I was making the point that it was in death that they received praise.

F*cking hell.

Pythia

I don't think this debate has much to do with Haughey and UCD.

(I agree with you peachy and MNG though!)

Chinafoot

Yea I reckon this should be locked too. It's gone way off topic (I hold my hands up there, I just hate this "tradition" bullshít) and it's a bad sign when words are being twisted.