some interesting news today

Dirk Gently

Just a little update on the debate in the Dail at the moment.

FF members are basically saying that they have no reason to doubt the U.S. assurances and that inspections are unnecessary.

SF are currently speaking, ironically they have condemned the illegal war in Iraq and are supporting inspections. SF reckons the Gardai can't act until they get evidence and the only way to get evidence is to search the planes. They are supporting inspections.

TD James Breen (ind) and Catherine Murphy (ind) support inspections and condemn U.S. actions.

Tony Gregory strongly supports inspections and strongly condemns U.S. actions.

paddy mc hugh (ind) speaking on behalf of the council of europe condemns recent reports that linked Ireland to extraordinary rendition but supports inspections.

John Gormley (greens)blasts the Government and supports inspections. (accuses Gov of putting american feelings ahead of human rights and says Gov turns a blind eye to the U.S.)

Liz Mc Manus on behalf of Labour accuses Gov of turning a blind eye to torture for political reasons and to remain friendly with U.S. She supports inspections. Says Gov is hiding behind U.S. gov assurances and says only planes who are willing to submit themselves to inspection should be allowed enter Irish air space.

Gov getting a bit of a hammering by greens/SF/LAB and independants.

joan burton (lab) basically repeats what Liz mc Manus said and says Iraq war is wrong but claims Gov look the other way. Says lab where against war from start. Wants a statement of principle from Gov on its position. Says Gov is two faced.

Joe costello repeats Lab position. supports random inspections and says a soverign state should not accept the U.S. word without confirming it through inspections.

Jan O Sullivan (lab) repeats Labour party line.

(germany come close to scoring with a decent shot on the polish goal)

Martin Cullen (FF) rubbishs claims Ireland took part in extraordinary rendition. Says it would be too hard to search planes and says best way to make sure Ireland is not used is to continue to seek assurances from the U.S. Basically says he trusts the U.S. at their word and says all our obligations under international law are being met.

Mick D Higgins (lab) says state law prohibits prisoner transfers unless it is between states. Lists Human rights laws and claims we are not living up to them. Says we are not prohibited by law from searching planes. Claims that Gardai told him otherwise. Lashes the Gov and says we cannot be satisfied with diplomatic insurances from U.S. lists human rights groups and European law makers who back him up by saying diplomatic assurances are not acceptable. He's getting a bit animated now, should probably chill a bit, I can see high blood pressure and heart complaints if he doesn't calm down.

(poland doing well against the germans, putting them under pressure)

Higgins still ranting and equates Irish Gov reluctance to act as compliance in torture. needs to loosen his tie a bit, get some air.

Hand waving rant continues.........
Says 4 planes he knows of where involved in extraordinary rendition. Says we were part of the process by allowing planes returning from prisioner drop offs to land.

lashes minister of Foreign Affairs, says we should put distance between ourselves and the stance taken by U.S. and engerland.

bashes his fist off back off chair, looks like it hurt. Says we must tell friendly countries to respect human rights.

Debate over, going to vote now on government amendment now.

looks like every one is back now.

(germans just missed an opener right on half time)

voting under way in the Dail.........

result: - Government wins amendment and vote by 70 votes to 56. Labour motion defeated.

call for another vote not using electronic voting system in the Dail.

New vote taken, same result, Government win by same margin 70 - 56

Game Over!

RedPlanet

What exactly was that vote about?
Surely legislation exists already for inspecting aeroplanes.
You'd think it'd be their job to search planes if there was suspected illegal activity going on. It's a matter of law and order.

Tsar

while i would'nt be a big fan of uncle sam all this outcry about prisioners going through shannon if they didnt go through shannon airport wouldnt exist. Another point about all this is that if Bill Clinton had waged this war no-body would have cared just like they didnt care when he armed croats and bombed belgrade.

Diaspora

Yes Clinton took out Milosovic and most people in the region are grateful that he did. Milosovic was a tyrant who was tried for war crimes and his death removed the possibility of closure for his many victims.

Your attempt to link Clinton to an invasion of Iraq is flawed Clinton was far too intelligent to walk into a second Vietnam.

Manic Moran

The troop-movement flights on civilian aircraft that fly through Shannon (and I presume also the military ones, though I've not seen them) are either totally unarmed, or effectually unarmed. (i.e. no ammunition). We even got physically searched for knives before boarding.

If this was a shipment of soldiers rotating home for their two weeks of vacation, then there wouldn't have been a single weapon on the 'plane, except, perhaps, for the MPs on prisoner escort duty.

I would assume that the reason that the Irish government wasn't informed was that the US military simply didn't think it was required to inform them. If I were the movement officer, I'd just consider it part of the normal internal troop movement process: US military personnel moving on a regularly scheduled US charter flight with other US military personnel. The fact that he was in leg irons wouldn't have struck me as particularly important. Well, now I (and the US Army) know better. No great conspiracy.

NTM

bonkey

Manic Moran wrote:

No great conspiracy.

Just what someone who was part of a great conspiracy would say.

sovtek

Tsar wrote:

while i would'nt be a big fan of uncle sam all this outcry about prisioners going through shannon if they didnt go through shannon airport wouldnt exist. Another point about all this is that if Bill Clinton had waged this war no-body would have cared just like they didnt care when he armed croats and bombed belgrade.

Actually I did and continue to do so.

Dirk Gently

RedPlanet wrote:

What exactly was that vote about?
Surely legislation exists already for inspecting aeroplanes.
You'd think it'd be their job to search planes if there was suspected illegal activity going on. It's a matter of law and order.

From what I seen of the debate it looked as if the Government were trying to fudge what the state is able to do in relation to searches. As a sovereign nation it was not conceived of that we would have to search foreign military vehicles on our territory during peace time in Ireland. The same catch doesn't apply to non military planes though.

Sinn Fein and Mick D Higgins held meetings with the gardai and were told that the guards need evidence that something illegal was going on onboard before they searched the plane, but the only way to get evidence was to do the search in the first place. It was a catch 22 situation brought about by our double standards of being a neutral country but at the same time aiding a foreign power during a war.

Ironically SF made the best points, although very hollow coming from them considering their own illegal war and use of torture and weapons of mass destruction.
Mick D Higgins argued that there was no law preventing us searching planes but the Gov seemed to dodge the point by continuing to insist that they have no reason not to believe the U.S. It looked to me as the guards got their instructions from the Government rather than existing law on this one as Mick D Higgins continued to argue that legally there was nothing to stop the searches happening.

It all comes down to a lack of political will on behalf of our Government to insist that the U.S. agrees to checks. No doubt they are afraid to offend the yanks and lose business at Shannon. They seem happy enough to accept the blood money at the expense of enforcing Human rights. The Gov use the U.S. assurances as back up just incase any illegal activity is ever proved to be happening on Irish soil. They can then pin the blame squarely on the U.S for deceiving them if in future that becomes the case.

There were points made by both sides, listing laws and human rights obligations and the Gov made out that the Gov were meeting all these while the opposition listed reasons why they were not being met.

At the end of the day, it is a huge grey area legally(or else someone was outright telling lies), but lack of political will by the government prevents it from being cleared up. If the Government had not amended the motion and won the vote then Ireland would have accepted responsibility for searching the planes.

After seeing the second night of the debate I am totally convinced that the opposition is right on this issue. The Gov were very weak and made ambiguous points trying to fudge the whole debate while the opposition spoke with passion and clarity. There was no need for the Government to make any effort during the debate of course as they were always going to have a majority vote and this debate was never going to get much public attention unless you actually went looking for the web cam link to the Dail. The only logical reason the Gov have for not banning the U.S. military or at least inspecting the planes is for economic reasons due to the business Shannon and the region gets from stop overs. It comes down to money over protecting Human rights.

cf_al_bs

Do you think the use of Shannon Airport, Ireland, by the United States Military to transport people and supplies to and from the War in Iraq is fair? Doesn't this show that Ireland has now in fact lost its neutrality status because it allows this injustice to continue? Also Ireland has been named as a place for terrorists to attack due to the use of Shannon Airport and the governments blind spot surrounding this issue. They didn't just say any countries supporting the war in Iraq, oh no they actually mentioned Dublin Airport and they were going to 'hit hard'.

Therefore I have decided to make a petition to show the oppostion to US Military flights landing at Shannon Airport. I urge everyone to sign it and be proud that Ireland can once again be a neutral country with a government that takes time to look into issues such as this.

To sign this petition go to : http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/save_shannon

Thank you for your time.
B4N,
Al.

samb

Diaspora wrote:

Yes Clinton took out Milosovic and most people in the region are grateful that he did. Milosovic was a tyrant who was tried for war crimes and his death removed the possibility of closure for his many victims.

Your attempt to link Clinton to an invasion of Iraq is flawed Clinton was far too intelligent to walk into a second Vietnam.

Point well made. I am not for Irish Neutrality. I believe that sometimes War is needed and if so we should assist. Militarily we are safe because we are protected by the US and UK and rest of Europe, so if they are fighting a just war-we should help. towards the end of WWII we should have officially joined in IMO.
I do not agree however with pretending to be neutral and then supporting the US and UK in every war they fight, just for finacial gain. We should have an honest debate and make an open decision whether we support a particular military campaign--not this fudge.