Can you afford to buy a home in Ireland?

HelterSkelter

Keyser Soze 5 wrote:

I've got a 2 bed apartment and I'm currently selling it to move to a house twice the size

Where is the apartment and where is the house?

FillSpectre

HelterSkelter wrote:

You are looking at the average cost in London which takes into account houses in mega expensive areas like central London, Chelsea, etc. Have a look at http://ononemap.com/map/index?maptype=Sales, go into an area such as Tooting (SW17), there are 15 two bedroom houses there for £200,000 or less. Up the price to £250,000 and you get 68 two bedroom houses. I am in London quite a lot and I find it cheaper than here for day to day expensives (e.g. Groceries).

Freedom for Tooting! (Citizen Smith)

Tooting is actually not a bad area two tube stops and a big hospital

utopian

FillSpectre wrote:

Yeap, I am aware it is not the most up to date

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_hom_own-people-home-ownership

Without reading the whole report you posted any chance of the actual information and figures you are quoting. I am sure there has been movement but not massive ones

The figures given are:

Ireland: 76% (2000, Housing Statistics in the EU)
Italy: 83% (2003, ISTAT)
Spain: 83% (1999, Housing Statistics in the EU)
Hungary: "over 90%" (2002, source unclear)

Table 3.4 in Housing Statistics in the European Union 2003 provides figures as well.

That mantra of "highest home ownership in the world...everyone else in Europe rents" may have been true once, but it no longer is. Ireland really isn't that exceptional.

Kinetic^

HelterSkelter wrote:

Where is the apartment and where is the house?

Apartment (670sq ft) is in Park West and the house (1200sq ft + back garden) is (likely to be) in Kiltipper, as we like what we've seen up there.

HelterSkelter

Keyser Soze 5 wrote:

Apartment (670sq ft) is in Park West and the house (1200sq ft + back garden) is (likely to be) in Kiltipper, as we like what we've seen up there.

Sounds good. Would much rather live in a house than an apartment.

Kinetic^

HelterSkelter wrote:

Sounds good. Would much rather live in a house than an apartment.

Yeah so would the gf and myself, but realistically we knew we had to get onto the ladder with something smaller and cheaper.

FillSpectre

utopian wrote:

The figures given are:

Ireland: 76% (2000, Housing Statistics in the EU)
Italy: 83% (2003, ISTAT)
Spain: 83% (1999, Housing Statistics in the EU)
Hungary: "over 90%" (2002, source unclear)

Table 3.4 in Housing Statistics in the European Union 2003 provides figures as well.

That mantra of "highest home ownership in the world...everyone else in Europe rents" may have been true once, but it no longer is. Ireland really isn't that exceptional.

Well The figures I put up are up to 2002 from the economist And while not all inclusive contradict what you are saying. Either way the point that Ireland has one of the highest home ownships in the western world with an increasing population stands. It is more likely that ireland homeownership rate will decrease. Italy has a reducing population and higher density especially in the urban environment.

I never used that mantra myself but there is some truth in it.

I looked at your second table and and it contradicts what you are saying in the other information. I think it is safe to say we are at the higher level and the other countries close to us are not fabulously wealthy. If you look up the CSO figure you will see vacant houses decrease when the economy is not doing well. So when there is less money more people own. I think it is a common economic "rule" but I am not sure

utopian

FillSpectre wrote:

Well The figures I put up are up to 2002

They're not, you know. They are from 2000...

FillSpectre wrote:

Either way the point that Ireland has one of the highest home ownships in the western world with an increasing population stands.

No-one said it didn't. What you said was:

FillSpectre wrote:

Currently Ireland has the highest homeownership in the world.

which is incorrect. I don't expect you to acknowledge that, of course.

FillSpectre

utopian wrote:

which is incorrect. I don't expect you to acknowledge that, of course.

I did acknowledge it in my first reply. "I stand corrected" means I accept I am not right.

Source: Economist, 30 March 2002, and Euromonitor for 2000. Which means the figures are from 2002.

I have therfore corrected myself and restated the main point I was making. Homeowneship in Ireland is likely to decrease to match to be closer to the rest of the world IMHO.

THere are no accurate figures was another point I have hinted and becasue I didn't need to state it.

Elessar

Seeing as it's increasingly likely I will be working freelance or even self employed at some point, I won't be able to afford a house, or even get a mortgage, ever.

I'm not bothered though, being an only child, living at home is great and I plan on staying here as long as possible, and I know I'll eventually get the house.

tallus

Bought my house 10 years ago just before the market went mad for 41,500 punts It's only a 2 up 2 down semi-d but it's mine

New_Departure06

If you want a truly affordable house then maybe you should look outside Dublin. I was relieved to find an apartment for €98,000 2.5 years ago in Wexford town. Maybe if you work in Dublin you can live outside it and commute.

utopian

FillSpectre wrote:

I did acknowledge it in my first reply. "I stand corrected" means I accept I am not right.

Sorry, I didn't see that (still can't, in fact).

FillSpectre wrote:

Source: Economist, 30 March 2002, and Euromonitor for 2000. Which means the figures are from 2002.

So the Economist was able to produce figures for 2002 in March 2002? Very impressive. Your link quite clearly states under "definition" that the data is from 2000.

I have no particular interest in rates of home ownership in Ireland. What I am getting at is that you asserted that Ireland is in some way exceptional with regard to home ownership. That is not the case.

FillSpectre

utopian wrote:

Sorry, I didn't see that (still can't, in fact).

Post #13

utopian wrote:

So the Economist was able to produce figures for 2002 in March 2002? Very impressive. Your link quite clearly states under "definition" that the data is from 2000.

No the data was compiled in 2002 the figures are from 2002 for 2000. If you don't get how that works or the logic I'm sorry. No need to be smart about it.

utopian wrote:

I have no particular interest in rates of home ownership in Ireland. What I am getting at is that you asserted that Ireland is in some way exceptional with regard to home ownership. That is not the case.

I am pointing out it is exceptional as the population is increasing we have a thriving economy and high ownership. Spain not doing so good, higher density and migration outwards. Italy has a decreasing poulation and poor economics. We are exceptional IMHO. It is a combination of things not just the ownsership. I am just saying the ownship figure is likely to move. You don't have to agree with me but you aren't picking up what I am saying.

The former soviet states are also diffenrent due to the social housing model prior to independence. I beleive this figure will also drop in time to match a more western norm.

utopian

FillSpectre wrote:

No the data was compiled in 2002 the figures are from 2002 for 2000. If you don't get how that works or the logic I'm sorry. No need to be smart about it.

I am not trying to be smart. All the dates I quoted earlier were data dates. Publication dates were 2003-2005. I was confused because you implied that the Economist figures were in some way more current (which they aren't).

So we are agreed that the latest figures show Ireland not to have the highest rates of home ownership in Europe.

FillSpectre wrote:

You don't have to agree with me but you aren't picking up what I am saying.

Perhaps not. I have frequently come across people who justify the current housing boom on the basis that Irish people, unlike other Europeans, have to own a house. I thought you were using a variation of that argument.

Personally, I had always accepted that Ireland was exceptional with regard to home ownership. I'm surprised by those figures.

FillSpectre

utopian wrote:

So we are agreed that the latest figures show Ireland not to have the highest rates of home ownership in Europe.

I am saying all the various different data contradicts itself and it is not really possible to get a truely accurate figure. Ireland being at the higher level compared to the average to me suggests this figure will drop closer to average. If you look at the other countries close in the ownership rate you will see that we are exceptional becasue we are making money an increasing the population.

utopian wrote:

Perhaps not. I have frequently come across people who justify the current housing boom on the basis that Irish people, unlike other Europeans, have to own a house. I thought you were using a variation of that argument.

But I didn't say that

utopian wrote:

Personally, I had always accepted that Ireland was exceptional with regard to home ownership. I'm surprised by those figures.

We are exceptional based on all details. AS far as I can make out the countires that make money have lower home ownership and those doing baddly have high home ownership.

People often say things aren't better her becasue in the 80s their parents could buy on one salary etc... My point being people staying with jobs could afford homes or the state gave them away free due to little money. WHen things are good prices go up more people and less houses.

Terry

Elessar wrote:

Seeing as it's increasingly likely I will be working freelance or even self employed at some point, I won't be able to afford a house, or even get a mortgage, ever.

I'm not bothered though, being an only child, living at home is great and I plan on staying here as long as possible, and I know I'll eventually get the house.

indeed. thank god for inheritance.

i know that i would never be able to afford a house on my own. luckily enough my parents had the foresight to buy the one i'm in before they died.

most of my friends work in the Dublin area, but have bought houses well outside Dublin. one went as far as edenderry and many have moved to kinnegad and mullingar.

i live in a modest 3 bed terraced council house that is valued at €300,000 and it's far from special.


EDIT: utopian, fill spectre has already stated that he was mistaken. you can let it go now. thanks.

trillianv

The house prices here are ridiculous. I will probably have to go back to America to buy a house, but not for a few more years. I can get a 4 bedroom house, 2100 sq feet on a 1/2 acre plot for $160,000 in my hometown. Now, granted it is very rural and there are areas where I could not afford a house (i.e. San Francisco, Seattle, etc.) but for the most part houses are much more affordable back there than here. Not to mention the cost of living is much better and I was being paid almost twice there what I get here. But we stay as my husband is Irish.

chigli

In London, most people who work in the city don't leave anywhere near - most generally commute for at least an hour. Now they have a better (and more regular) transport system than Dublin has.

I don't understand why so many people (especially FTB) think that they must buy in Dublin - they would be better off buying in Louth, Meath, Wicklow, Kildare etc and getting the usual reliable train services ...

You would get a better quality of house for less money and your commuting time wouldn't be that different. It probably takes at most 1.5 hours to get from any of those counties to Dublin city centre in rush hour - probably better off than living in the 'burbs in Dublin and spending that on the bus each morning and evening ...

trillianv

chigli wrote:

I don't understand why so many people (especially FTB) think that they must buy in Dublin - they would be better off buying in Louth, Meath, Wicklow, Kildare etc and getting the usual reliable train services ...

Don't move to Navan if you want to get the train to work....still no train service here and the bus can take anywhere from an hour to 2.5 (yes it really did!) to city centre. But Drogheda could be a viable option for easy transport in and out of Dublin.

Or wait til 2010 when it has been said the train service will be up and running....holding my breath

utopian

FillSpectre wrote:

I am saying all the various different data contradicts itself

I don't see that.

FillSpectre wrote:

and it is not really possible to get a truely accurate figure.

Agreed. Probably accurate enough, all the same.

FillSpectre wrote:

Ireland being at the higher level compared to the average to me suggests this figure will drop closer to average.

Sorry - I misunderstood your original post, in my keenness to challenge your statistic.

Yes, we may start moving towards the mean. I would imagine that Ireland requires a better long-term rental sector for that to happen, however.

FillSpectre

utopian wrote:

Yes, we may start moving towards the mean. I would imagine that Ireland requires a better long-term rental sector for that to happen, however.

We might require it but there isn't the same social drives that built the rental property elsewhere. Spain had a devastating civil war and socilaismn, Germans hand deavasted cities from the war, Italy had the war,socilism and a history of high density. It kind of goes on in a similar fashion.

I would find it hard for any politician going to be able to change the housing policy in this country and punish those with extra property. It would be a vote killer untill those not owning actually statr voting. Older people vote and own. I don't think we will get a change to rental market here.

chigli wrote:

I don't understand why so many people (especially FTB) think that they must buy in Dublin - they would be better off buying in Louth, Meath, Wicklow, Kildare etc and getting the usual reliable train services ...

Mostly becasue it isn't that reliable, regular, comfortable or even there. You can live in Kent easily and commute to London to work. This was built with masses of imperial money over a 100 years ago and then maintained. We don't have the service and won't.

fly_agaric

Elessar wrote:

I'm not bothered though, being an only child, living at home is great and I plan on staying here as long as possible, and I know I'll eventually get the house.

No you won't. The govt. will take it to pay for nursing home care for your parents!:)
Then you'll be paying rent to some scuzzy landlord for the rest of your life, while the money from the sale of your parent's house goes to clever people who invested in the "booming private nursing home sector"!

FillSpectre wrote:

I don't think we will get a change to rental market here.

Heavens forbid. I shudder at the thought!

Maybe rack-rented tenements with more rats than people will be making a big comeback in the future! Yay for that!

BoozyBabe

Yes, bought my own home nearly 2 years ago, when I was 24, but trust me, I was one of the VERY lucky ones:- got such a bargain!!!

No way could I afford a house anywhere even remotely close to Dublin

fly_agaric

BoozyBabe wrote:

Yes, bought my own home nearly 2 years ago, when I was 24, but trust me, I was one of the VERY lucky ones:- got such a bargain!!!

No way could I afford a house anywhere even remotely close to Dublin

Lol, the smug and the damned eh, the smug and the damned...

_Kaiser_

Personally I don't care if I ever own a house. Like someone else said, it's something you really do with/for others (wife/long-term girlfriend, kids etc)

It's this Irish mentally that you MUST own your own house that has things the way they are. I'd wager part of this line of thought is to be seen as successful by peers/family/neighbours (in the same way people will go out buying brand new 06 cars with their SSIA money, even though there's absolutely nothing wrong with their 02/03.. but hey, that'll mean I can get a good new-ish car cheap next year, so please work away ).
The only ones profiting from this are builders, banks and estate agents by the way.

I honestly can't see what the attraction is in:

1. Being up to my neck in debt (something the banks have started to express concern over - the ever increasing debt we're all getting into) and living just to pay the mortgage, commuting/car costs and the loans you took out to furnish the place.

2. Having to move so far out of Dublin (in my case) that commuting would be a 3/4 hour+ nightmare. So of course you need to buy a car then too as public transport is a joke beyond the capital or the major cities. Then there's the time WASTED in purely getting from A to B.

3. You're so far away from your friends/family that you only see them at weekends (if that) and going out becomes a pain as you have to arrange somewhere to stay, book in somewhere, or take the car (there's no nitelinks/taxis to these housing estates in the middle of nowhere remember).

4. You have to be on the road at 6AM and aren't home till maybe 7PM (see point 2). When you do finally get home, you're too exhausted to enjoy the 3-bed semi-D you were convinced you needed (which incidentially is identical to the other 50/500? in the estate!).

5. Going to the shops becomes a major chore as you have to drive everywhere. Or you spend your weekends looking for parking in somewhere like Blanch SC because you just can't get anything in your local corner shop.


I could go on, but I think I've made my point... For the record, I rent in Blanch, Dublin so:

6. I'm 5 minutes walk from a station on the Maynooth line. 25 minutes from town.

7. I'm 5 minutes drive from Blanch SC and I don't have to leave at 6AM to beat the traffic and get a parking spot.

8. I can go out in town and get a nitelink home to my own bed for €4.50 (or whatever it is now) or a taxi for about €25 if I'm feeling flush with the money I HAVEN'T spent on my mortgage.

9. I live in a big comfortable house in a quiet estate. I'm 30 mins drive from work and the same to my family's house.

Now all that said, I may indeed buy a house someday but only if, as I said at the start, I've a wife and kids at that stage, or if I win the lotto or get a ridiculous amount of money from work . It certainly won't be because I think I MUST get on the property ladder because Irish culture says I should.

whizzbang

I'm waiting for a crash, every other property boom in history has been followed by a crash, thats when I'm going to buy. In the mean time I'll keep renting a lovely place I couldn't afford to buy and suffer through my 15 minute drive to work each morning.

Beat being up to you neck in debt and driving an hour each way to work.

ionapaul

We're going to have 1 of these threads at least once a month for the next year or two, that's my prediction! If there is a crash, what will the threads be about?

whizzbang

ionapaul wrote:

We're going to have 1 of these threads at least once a month for the next year or two, that's my prediction! If there is a crash, what will the threads be about?

emmigration?


that and funny videos of monkeys.

aniascor

whizzbang wrote:

I'm waiting for a crash, every other property boom in history has been followed by a crash, thats when I'm going to buy.

At what point in the crash will you buy? When the prices have dropped 10%, 20%...50%? How long will you wait for? Or will you actually wait for a crash to come and go, and only buy when prices start rising again?
(EDIT - BTW, I am just asking this because I am curious. I've heard a lot of people say this, and I'm just wondering exactly how long they will wait?)

To answer the question posted originally - I can afford to buy a home in Ireland, and still have enough money left over to save a bit and have a life. In fact, we're due to get the keys to our new house in a week's time!

Of course, the reason I can afford a home is because I am buying with my bf, and because we are only buying what we need - 2-bed house. I would have loved a 3-bed or even a 4-bed, but not only would that have stretched our finances, but we have no need for a house that size right now.

I think (and I've said this before on the Property forum) that a lot of people have actually forgotten why the housing market is referred to as a Property Ladder - and that you don't necessarily need to start on the top rung.