Great anti atheist lyrics and spirituality question

stevejazzx

As some around will know I am very a cock-sure atheist but I just love these lyrics.

They say that heaven is 10 zillion light years away
And just the pure at heart will walk her righteous streets someday
They say that heaven is 10 zillion light years away
But if there is a God, we need Him now
"Where is your God"
That's what my friends ask me
And I say it's taken Him so long
'Cause we've got so far to come...

Tell me people
Why can't they say that hate is 10 zillion light years away
Why can't the light of good shine God's love in every soul
Why must my color black make me a lesser man
I thought this world was made for every man
He loves us all, that's what my God tells me
And I say it's taken Him so long
'Cause we've got so far to come...

But in my heart I can feel it, yeah,
Feel His spirit wow oh woo...
Feel it, yeah, feel His spirit...

I... can't say that heaven is 10 zillion light years away
But if so let all be pure at heart
Just to walk her righteous streets I pray
Let God's love shine within to save our evil souls
For those who don't believe will never see the light
"Where is my God" - He lives inside of me
And I say it's taken Him so long
'Cause we've got so far to come...
No people, "where is your God?"
Inside please let Him be
And I say it's taken Him so long
'Cause we've got so far to come...

But if you open your heart you can feel it yeah yeah
Feel His spirit, yeah
Feel it, feel His spirit, wow oh wow...
Feel it, you can feel His spirit
I opened my heart one morning and
I sho nuff could feel it yeah yeah
Feel His spirit yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
You can feel it, yeah, feel His spirit
You can feel it, yeah, feel His spirit

My question is this, it's a little complex but bear with me.

Do you think that the spirituality of a religous person is just the end product of years of conditioning and study, that is to say something that they have learned as opposed to something which is innate within them?

And if you believe it's at least partially innate how would you show as a religous/non religous person that this inate feeling that you are convinced you have isn't just something that has been embedded into your consciosness from years of following such material.
This is a metaphysical question about emotion and spirit, can they exist as pure innate entities or are they just learned like all our other conditions emotions?

Funsterdelux

Woow, there horse, I'll need to take out my pipe, and put on my hat and jacket for this one.

Dades

anti atheist lyrics

Hardly.

And afraid I don't have time just now to tackle your question of Life the Universe and Everything...

stevejazzx

The Atheist wrote:

Hardly.

Hardly?I don't mean anti ateist in the snese that he's frocibly admonishing atheists, I mean in the sense that his purity and expression of love and understanding represent the most powerful ideas in religon and therefore a strong antidote to popular atheist thinking.

The Atheist wrote:

And afraid I don't have time just now to tackle your question of Life the Universe and Everything...

Well it's not a question of everything really, essentially what I am asking is
"Are human feelings learned through conditioning, in particular those feelings which some equate as other wordly, spiritual etc?

pH

stevejazzx wrote:

Do you think that the spirituality of a religous person is just the end product of years of conditioning and study, that is to say something that they have learned as opposed to something which is innate within them?

This is covered in detail by Daniel Dennett's new book Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon. If you're really interested in this question then you should read this. While it doesn't have all (or it could be argued hardly any!) answers it's at least a great starting point.

As for the lyrics, I hope that they have some magical transformation when put to music, because I'm at a loss as to what's to 'love' about them, they seem childish, melodramatic and trite to me.

robindch

> a strong antidote to popular atheist thinking.

Where is this "popular atheist thinking"?

> his purity and expression of love and understanding represent
> the most powerful ideas in religon

Er:

Feel His spirit yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Am I missing something?

stevejazzx

pH wrote:

This is covered in detail by Daniel Dennett's new book Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon. If you're really interested in this question then you should read this. While it doesn't have all (or it could be argued hardly any!) answers it's at least a great starting point.

Oh I've read many books on the topic, I will check that out though, cheers.

pH wrote:

As for the lyrics, I hope that they have some magical transformation when put to music, because I'm at a loss as to what's to 'love' about them, they seem childish, melodramatic and trite to me.

Yeah, well it's taken from the album

Fullfillinesses first finale, which is one of the greatest albums ever IMO.

Lyrics are obviously subjective and relative so i take your point, the text is somewhat basic, however the there are profoundly beautifully lines notably

"Where is your God"
That's what my friends ask me
And I say it's taken Him so long
'Cause we've got so far to come

This is the starting point of stevies idea in this song, that ignorant humans are not ready for the prutiy of all loving God, it seems to me a fairly accurate idea that if there was a god that indeed humans are a zillion miles away from him, at least if one equates religous doctrine and how increasing fundamentalism of various religons have distroted the beautiful message of harmony and peace that is preached almost universally.

Also

Tell me people
Why can't they say that hate is 10 zillion light years away

This is one my favorite lines from any song. I wouldn't, like you have, class this as childish, but rather extremely mature. He is asking for people to question hate first and not God/Heaven. It may be idealistic but not childish.

BTW, yes the song makes a lot more sense and has a lot gravitas when put to music.

stevejazzx

robindch wrote:

> his purity and expression of love and understanding represent
> the most powerful ideas in religon

Er:Am I missing something?

Yes, as it is a song, the written lyrics indicate various impromtu moments also, which can look pointless on paper but in their musical context are perfectly natrual. In terms of purity of expression I was referring to the lyrics insistance of feeling a spirit and denying hate.

robindch

> in their musical context are perfectly natrual

Perhaps, but the words are still trite. Anyhow, that's not answering the question....

> He is asking for people to question hate first and not God/Heaven.

I can't disagree with encouraging people to question and understand why hatred occurs -- an excellent idea! Though I think he'd make more headway if here were to show how religion, far from producing that decency that it preaches, frequently produces the opposite -- so, rather than avoiding the question, I think he should face it and try to get people to question the ideas of religion/god/heaven/satan/life when one is dead/etc, etc, rather than just accepting the dead-end silliness of what the religions claim to tell them about these things.

stevejazzx

robindch wrote:

> in their musical context are perfectly natrual

Perhaps, but the words are still trite. Anyhow, that's not answering the question....

> He is asking for people to question hate first and not God/Heaven.

I can't disagree with encouraging people to question and understand why hatred occurs -- an excellent idea! Though I think he'd make more headway if here were to show how religion, far from producing that decency that it preaches, frequently produces the opposite -- so, rather than avoiding the question, I think he should face it and try to get people to question the ideas of religion/god/heaven/satan/life when one is dead/etc, etc, rather than just accepting the dead-end silliness of what the religions claim to tell them about these things.

I think trite is a bit strong, he is purposefully going for the simplistic approach
and even with that imo the lyrics are strong,
anyway I agree the music doesn't show how religon is flawed in the ways you describe but that song never set out to do that, it's primarily about people losing faith in god and his (stevie wonder) attempt at showing how he overcomes such things. My question out of all this, that noone has ventured an answer to yet is:

'Is spirituality learned through human experience and therfore just another contrived emotion, or is it something instinctive within us?

Fallen Seraph

stevejazzx wrote:

Do you think that the spirituality of a religous person is just the end product of years of conditioning and study, that is to say something that they have learned as opposed to something which is innate within them?

I reckon it's innate to the extent that language is innate, we all have a natural tendency to communicate verbally, but learned to the extent that the particular language we speak is learned.

That said, the question is more of a scientific one than a philosophical one, I'd say there is an absolute answer, but that's best left to the social scientists and psychologists.

Zombrex

stevejazzx wrote:

'Is spirituality learned through human experience and therfore just another contrived emotion, or is it something instinctive within us?

Both (and you actually have that the wrong way around, an emotion is something instinctive within us).

"Spirituality" is an attempt for the human brain to make sense of things it doesn't understand within the context of things it does understand. There seems to be an inbuild need for humans to do this, is seems to just be the way our brain works things out, using examples we do understand to explain things we don't. Religion is a more advanced development of this.

I must say I agree with robindch, those lyrics are a bit wishy washy and trite. Also, as an atheist, I'm a bit sick of the idea that religion = peace and love and atheism = selfishness and hate. Religion doesn't have exclusive rights to the better sides of humanity. Quite the opposite in fact

stevejazzx

Wicknight wrote:

Both (and you actually have that the wrong way around, an emotion is something instinctive within us).

With regards to emotion, I never said that emotion couldn't be instinctive, I was asking if sprituality is a kind of contrived emotion.

wicknight wrote:

"Spirituality" is an attempt for the human brain to make sense of things it doesn't understand within the context of things it does understand. There seems to be an inbuild need for humans to do this, is seems to just be the way our brain works things out, using examples we do understand to explain things we don't. Religion is a more advanced development of this.

My view on spirituality is that it is an feeling that lives inside of a person and is representitve of that persons actions and beliefs, a spirit which gained it's own will so casues either harmony or imbalance in someone, the brain struggles with the spirit as i see it to control it's own creation. I believe in the spirit and the soul but as creations which can become complex and beautiful even.

wicknight wrote:

I must say I agree with robindch, those lyrics are a bit wishy washy and trite.

fair enough, i can see how they migth come across that way, the only thing i would say is that maybe listen to the song and you might an idea of what i mean.

wicknight wrote:

Also, as an atheist, I'm a bit sick of the idea that religion = peace and love and atheism = selfishness and hate. Religion doesn't have exclusive rights to the better sides of humanity. Quite the opposite in fact

I too diagree with the idea that
"religion = peace and love and atheism = selfishness and hate"
and if you read the thread it's something I don't say

pH

Out from your palaces, princes and queens,
Out from your churches, you clergy, you christs,
I'll neither live nor die for your dreams.
I'll make no subscription to your paradise.
I'll make no subscription to your paradise.
I'll make no subscription to your paradise.
I'LL MAKE NO SUBSCRIPTION TO YOUR PARADISE....
Crass - Demoncrats (Stations of the Crass) 1979 (showing my age I know!)

Two great European narcotics,
Alcohol and Christianity,
I know which one I prefer
The Streets - "Never Went To Church" (The Hardest Way To Make An Easy Living) 2006

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
John Lennon - Imagine

I'm the sum total of my ancestors
I carry their DNA
We are representatives of a long line of people
And we cart them around everywhere
This long line of people
That goes back to the beginning of time
And when we meet - they meet other lines of people
And we say bring together the lines of me.
Faithless - My Culture

Any more ?

stevejazzx

pH wrote:

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
John Lennon - Imagine

I'm the sum total of my ancestors
I carry their DNA
We are representatives of a long line of people
And we cart them around everywhere
This long line of people
That goes back to the beginning of time
And when we meet - they meet other lines of people
And we say bring together the lines of me.
Faithless - My Culture

Any more ?

you forgot?
"God is a concept by which we measure our pain"

John Lennon

MrB

pH wrote:

Any more ?

A personal favourite

Dear God
Hope you got the message, and
I pray you can make it better down here
I don't mean a big reduction in the price of beer
But all the people that you made in your image
See them starving on their feet
'Cause they don't get enough to eat
From God, I can't believe in you
I can't believe in you
Dear God
Sorry to disturb you, but
I feel that I should be heard loud and clear
We all need a big reduction in amount of tears
And all the people that you made in your image
See them fighting in the street
'Cause they can't make opinions meet about God
I can't believe in you
I can't believe

Did you make disease
I can't believe
And the diamond blue?
I don't believe
Did you make mankind after we made you?
I can't believe
And the devil too
I don't believe
I can't believe

Dear God
Don't know if you noticed, but
Your name is on a lot of quotes in this book
And us crazy humans wrote it, you should take a look
And all the people that you made in your image still believing that junk exist
Well I know it ain't, and so do you
Dear God
I can't believe in
I don't believe in
I don't believe

I won't believe in heaven and hell
No saints, no sinners, no devil as well
No pearly gates, no thorny crown
You're always letting us humans down
The wars you bring, the babes you drown
Those lost at sea and never found
And it's the same the whole world 'round
The hurt I see helps to compound
That Father, Son and Holy Ghost
Is just somebody's unholy hoax
And if you're up there you'd perceive
That my heart's here upon my sleeve
If there's one thing I don't believe in

It's you

Tricky - Dear God (sung by Tricky & Costanza)

Although I disagree with one thing, we DO need a big reduction in the price of beer

*Edit* This is actually an XTC cover, but the Tricky version is the one I know.

5uspect

Josh Ritter's Thin Blue Flame is a classic, probably not entirely athiest but shows how someone is coming to question his faith:

"I became a thin blue wire That held the world above the fire And so it was I saw behind Heaven¹s just a thin blue line If God¹s up there he¹s in a cold dark room The heavenly host are just the cold dark moons He bent down and made the world in seven days And ever since he¹s been a¹walking away Mixing with nitrogen in lonely holes Where neither seraphim or raindrops go I see an old man wandering the halls alone Only a full house gonna make a home

I became a thin blue stream
The smoke between asleep and dreams
And in that clear blue undertow
I saw Royal City far below
Borders soft with refugees
Streets a¹swimming with amputees
It¹s a Bible or a bullet they put over your heart
It¹s getting harder and harder to tell them apart
Days are nights and the nights are long
Beating hearts blossom into walking bombs
And those still looking in the clear blue sky for a sign
Get missiles from so high they might as well be divine
Now the wolves are howling at our door
Singing bout vengeance like it¹s the joy of the Lord
Bringing justice to the enemies not the other way round
They¹re guilty when killed and they¹re killed where they¹re found
If what¹s loosed on earth will be loosed up on high
It¹s a Hell of a Heaven we must go to when we die
Where even Laurel begs Hardy for vengeance please
The fat man is crying on his hands and his knees
Back in the peacetime he caught roses on the stage
Now he twists indecision takes bourbon for rage
Lead pellets peppering aluminum
Halcyon, laudanum and Opium
Sings kiss thee hardy this poisoned cup
His winding sheet is busy winding up
In darkness he looks for the light that has died
But you need faith for the same reasons that it¹s so hard to find
And this whole thing is headed for a terrible wreck
And like good tragedy that¹s what we expect"