Final Group A & B Games today

Jimi-Spandex

I thought England were alright in the first half. I would definitely keep Hargreaves in the team for the next game.

I'd go for the following against Ecuador

Nev--Rio--Terry--ACole

---

Hargreaves

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Gerrard---Lampard---JCole
----Rooney----Crouch---

If neville isn't fit I'd go for hargreaves at right back. I rate Carra, he's an excellent defender, but he doesn't offer enough going forward.

Attractive Nun

Hargreaves is a terrible right back, IMO. Carragher is at least defensively sound, and putting Hargreaves in another position would mean playing without a holding midfielder, since Sven seems to hate Carrick for some reason. In the past hours I have become convinced that your formation (with Neville) is the only option for England if they want to progress. Beckham is useless.

p.pete

Does anyone else think it's funny how Crouch has played a full 90 minutes in the league this year only 4 times? The reason given for this was that he does so much running, whatever.

Now in a more draining competition with hotter conditions etc. he's getting the chance to play pretty much all of all games for England. He's doing fantastic so far so hopefully he doesn't get villified if he starts to wilt.

redspider

This game proved to be full of incident. As many pundits have pointed out, it probably raises more questions than answers for England. For Owen, its a sorry end to his world cup campaign, which never got going. His confidence was near zero before the match, it must be at zero or lower now.

Sweden were ordinary enough in the first half. England did quite well. Rooney looked lively. Hargreaves was doing his job. Joe Cole was creating openings in the inside left position. England were probing and Sweden were creating little. Then, from nothing, Joe Cole shot from about 35 yards out, after controlling a clearance on his chest, struck a sweet lofted shot and caught the Swedish goalie (and the English team) unawares. A very good goal, although a better keeper more than likely would have saved it. A 'wonder' goal.

From then on, other players were trying pot shots at goal from distance, such as Rooney and Lampard. Beckham wasnt getting a lot of supply yet made some good passes. England were in control. Yet, at half-time it was just 1-0.

At half-time, the RTE analysts were lauding it for England. "A great pass from Beckham", said Johnny, England doing good. A wonder goal from Joe Cole. England should go on to win it, but by how much, was Liam's quip. Dunphy, who is clearly in love with Wayne Rooney, lauded his adopted starlet. So, with what looked like an easy English victory on the cards, the "experts" rowed in behind, Souness being the most cautious and not getting carried away.

As the second half got under-way, it was at this point that myself and a colleague who were watching the match, were discussing how the analysts always tend to exaggerate the situation. Their lauding of England was overboard. Granted, Sweden hadnt done much, but football is a funny game and at only 1-0 up from a wonder goal, the slimmest of margins, anything can happen. Also, it wasnt as if England had been peppering Sweden's goal, bombarding them with attack after attack. We thought how easy it could be for this game to turn on its head if Sweden got a goal, such as from a corner or free-kick.

Just as we were discussing it, a goal for Sweden. Who was to blame. Crouch to some extent for not getting close enough to his man, but its difficult for a 6 ft 7 giant who's frame is not geared for fast acceleration. Robinson the keeper could have done better, as the ball darted across his 6 yard area and he left too much for Ashley Cole to do. It was 1-1, the scoreline perhaps flattering Sweden.

But what happened next was quite amazing. The game was nearly all Sweden, creating chance after chance. Again the dead-ball situations proving the most dangerous. They hit the woodwork twice(!) and England could count themselves lucky to be level. England took off Rooney and switched to a 4-5-1 formation, with Gerrard coming on. He and the new formation instantly made a difference. England were better at containing, although they were still very fragile on set-pieces. This was clearly evident when there was a free kick when England pulled everyone back inside the box, forming a quasi wall of players. England were afraid, they were scared.

To be fair to England, they kept plugging away, and a goal came out of little. Joe Cole found himself at the inside right postion, looked up, crossed well for Gerrard who had made a run and they scored. Again, with a better keeper who was not afraid of the post, it probably would have been saved. So, now at 2-1, England had regained the lead but the score was at this stage very much flattering England. The Swedes deserved more.

And they got it. Again from a set-piece. This time errors being made by the likes of Terry, Campbell, Robinson could have done better again as could Ashley Cole on the line. A scarpy english-sytle goal pushed into the net from 3 yards by Larrson, great to see him getting a goal, an exemplary player and person, yet nothing less than what Sweden had deserved. Overall, a 2-2 result was fair I thought.

So, full-time analysis. And of course, what do we get? The "experts" jumping up and down on England. What has Sven been doing for the last 5 years, is Giles mantra. Dunphy had a twisted enough mind to suggest that taking off Rooney was the right thing to do yet the wrong thing to do as Rooney threw a little tantrum. "This is a big big story", was his line

It didnt take long before they all started laying into Beckham, and blaming all of England's ills on his cosy relationship with Sven, and the fact that the team suffers because it has to carry him etc. This, whilst having some merits such as what Liam said he cant get around players, is bogus analysis. He got very little supply to feed his key attribute, which is crossing the ball. He (and most right sided midfielders) needs a wide right player to help set up those situations up, which we saw with Lennon in another game, but a good right back should do it. Unfortunately, as good as Jamie Carragher is as a centre back, he is no wing back like a Cafu and doesnt get up and down the pitch. Beckham is missing Gery Neville.

Looking at England's left side, Ashley Cole is not at his peak, neither defensively nor going forward. Joe Cole cant run to the bye-line and cross the ball in with his left. That is why he has to come inside, and he plays the Chelsea way anyway - they dont cross from the bye-line.

Poor games were had by Terry to a certain extent, Robinson was jittery and not commanding in the 6 yard box, Lampard wasnt shooting well, etc. And the goals are explained above. How any "expert" could then blame ALL of England's woes on Beckham is beyond me!

Engand now meet Ecuador. I could see that going to extra time and penalties. Ecuador may not burst England's WC fantasy, but surely some decent team will. It is only a matter of time.

eirebhoy wrote:

Total of tackles commited by Gerrard and Lampard in a combined total of 472 minutes - 17. Total tackles commited by Owen Hargreaves in 98 minutes of play - 17. I think Lampard let Hargreaves do all the work tonight off the ball as he put in no more than 2 or 3 tackles. Ridiculous.

I take your point. Hargreaves isnt a great player by any twist of the imagination but he did a good job yesterday and did what he had to do. Is he a Makelele? No. Is he better in the holding role than Lampard? Yes. Better than Carrick? Perhaps with tackling, not with passing.

Lampard is not a strong tackler. His strongest attribute is going forward. He should be measured on that.

I think Sven could go 4-5-1 with Rooney up-front on his own. Not an ideal formation for Rooney but perhaps with good support from Gerrard and Lampard marrauding forward, it may be their best overall option.

redspider

WhiteWashMan

eirebhoy wrote:

Total of tackles commited by Gerrard and Lampard in a combined total of 472 minutes - 17.

Total tackles commited by Owen Hargreaves in 98 minutes of play - 17.

I think Lampard let Hargreaves do all the work tonight off the ball as he put in no more than 2 or 3 tackles. Ridiculous.

i think you have thing for lampard.

certainly not at his best, but i dont understand why you keep trying to compare apples with oranges when it comes to him. must be this dislike of all things english i guess.

did lampard play as well as rooney, or rio or robinson?

eirebhoy

I'll ignore the blatant trolling in your post (pm me if you want) and reply to the rest. Yes I have a thing against Frank Lampard, surely there's one player you just don't like? It's the fact that I think he is one of the biggest luxury players in world football, nothing more than that.

The reason I gave that stat is because I think it shows why England are so poor when the team takes the game to them. I believe England's central midfield is their problem position as it has been for the last 2 years. Obviously most of the blame lies with the manager as most people would agree.

WhiteWashMan

sorry, i thought you were comparing some players against other players there, but if thats trolling, fair enough, i'll stop asking you about it since you obviously wont or cant answer it.

eirebhoy

WhiteWashMan wrote:

sorry, i thought you were comparing some players against other players there, but if thats trolling, fair enough, i'll stop asking you about it since you obviously wont or cant answer it.

Don't I just hate everything English? Why would I have a preference for one English player over another so?

Let's leave it here WWM or another thread will be ruined.

Anam

Owen is out for 5 months

PHB

Holy ****, poor guy, that's just horrible for him. Don't like the guy but 5 months can be wished upon nobody

I'm a huge fan of Lampard, and I think he has delivered in the past for England, but he doesn't seem to be doing it for England in this World Cup.

Dropping Beckham is an interesting idea, but it's unfair to suggest he only contributes free kicks, as this is only the case when he isn't playing with an actual full back. He has no pace and no ability to beat people, so his crossing is based solely on the full back making runs to create the space. Carragher is a CB and doens't do this properly, with Neville back, you will see the best of Beckham. And since he won't be dropped anywya, it's all academic.

Personally, I think Sven should drop Cole and Beckham from the wings, play Downing and Lennon on the wings, with Rooney up front (blistering pace up front)
with a midfield of Hargreaves Carrick and Joe Cole
That'll solve this whole Gerrard Lampard thing all together I'm beginning to think you have to base your teams around them, and England don't have the players to do that. Joe Cole has shown he deserves his spot, for creating and shooting, more than Lampard and Gerrard.

fade2black

As much as I try and feel sorry for Owen...well I just can't. I don't like the guy, I used to when he played for liverpool funnily enough but something changed in him and he became the cockiest git ever to put on a soccer jersey. He said he'd be the top scorer in the world cup. After every game where he played cack he said he'd be a lot better in the next game. Me arse. His Dominos cheques and Asda cheques will cheer him up anyway.

WhiteWashMan

eirebhoy wrote:

Don't I just hate everything English? Why would I have a preference for one English player over another so?

Let's leave it here WWM or another thread will be ruined.

sorry, my question about comparing lampard with another player in another role, and wondering why you keep doing that and saying that lampard is crap.

i mean, i think lampard is a super player. i do think he is world class. i think he is exceptionally strong going forward and he scores goals and he creates goals. and to me that the job of a attacking midfielder, which is what he is.

i dont understand what can be gained from comparing tackling statistics with someone in a different role. robinson made more saves, does that mean that lampard is a worse midfielder?

but im sure you will just say im trolling again, as that seems to be all you do instead of just addressing the simple questions i put to you.

WhiteWashMan

fade2black wrote:

As much as I try and feel sorry for Owen...well I just can't. I don't like the guy, I used to when he played for liverpool funnily enough but something changed in him and he became the cockiest git ever to put on a soccer jersey. He said he'd be the top scorer in the world cup. After every game where he played cack he said he'd be a lot better in the next game. Me arse. His Dominos cheques and Asda cheques will cheer him up anyway.

bit harsh. i feel sorry for any professional sportperson that suffers something like that.
michael owen had fine form at liverpool and fine form at madrid when he was played, but since he came back to newcastle there has only been rare glimpses of the sort of form he used to have.
i feel sorry for him.

eirebhoy

WhiteWashMan wrote:

but im sure you will just say im trolling again, as that seems to be all you do instead of just addressing the simple questions i put to you.

I always answer your questions but for some reason you seem to hide a few in there somewhere as you don't think I do.

Lampard and Gerrard are playing as central midfielders, it's their job to tackle as much as it is to shoot. Lampard isn't crap, he's just a luxury player and I don't like that in a player. It's all well and good playing in a team where you have everyone to do the dirty work for you but atm we're watching the Frank Lampard that wasn't good enough to make the last world cup squad.

I really admire Joe Cole because even though he is playing as a winger he's doing an awful lot of work off the ball and it can only be good for the team.

mike65

welcome to Scotland land of the bitters

Mike.