British Iraq Warship coming to Dublin

Ohyeah

HMS Ocean that served in Iraq is coming to Dublin port on June 29th. :mad: I think this is much the same as US military use of Shannon.

I would have more respect for the government if they just said we are not neutral:(

why keep up the illusion that we are. We should admit it to ourselves that we are just part of the western military alliance, not signed up members of NATO, but certainly unisgned ones

see this Daily Ireland article http://dailyireland.televisual.co.uk/home.tvt?_scope=DailyIreland/Content/News&id=32349&opp=1&_ticket=R1SEAOWM4BEFURUSKON9ANWPOIA9CHVTWRRLIUPBAOWGCUKACK3243QFIR0AAMTECYLGBHSI7W2EIOPNPQSEANYDDGSGW4YMHONDLHBR9LLDPISKYQRFLZHXWMTEDYKACNWFURXOHONDLALVK666Q

see this debate http://www.politics.ie/news_index.php?topic_id=12529

toiletduck

Ohyeah wrote:

HMS Ocean that served in Iraq is coming to Dublin port on June 29th. :mad: I think this is much the same as US military use of Shannon.

not really, it's a friendly visit by our closest neighbours navy. it's not a stopoff on it's way to a conflict area.

I would have more respect for the government if they just said we are not neutral:(

we are not and never have been neutral

mike65

Its a disgrace! Send a gunboat, erm....

Mike.

bonkey

I don't see the problem. As pointed out, its not passing through here for logistical purposes on active duty.

At absolute worst it gives people a focal point around which to arrange (peaceful) protests which target both the Irish and British governments' roles.

jc

Ohyeah

"We have not and never have been neutral"

my very point is that the government does not admit to this!!!!! :mad:

I would have more respect for that.

They should make the case for Ireland to join the western military alliance rather than pretending every step we make twoards it is not "undermining our traditional policy of neutraility" as Willie O' Dea says ALL THE TIME :mad:

nobody think any irony at all that O'Dea was dressing himself up in the green flag during 1916 Rising anniversary and now is welcoming a British Royal Navy warship ??? no not even a tiny incy wincy bit of irony at tall atall???:D

toiletduck

Ohyeah wrote:

"We have not and never have been neutral"

my very point is that the government does not admit to this!!!!! :mad:

i agree, but anyone who has any knowledge of the past 60 years of history of this state could see that we're not neutral.

They should make the case for Ireland to join the western military alliance rather than pretending every step we make twoards it is not "undermining our traditional policy of neutraility" as Willie O' Dea says ALL THE TIME :mad:

i agree again!

Sand

HMS Ocean that served in Iraq is coming to Dublin port on June 29th. I think this is much the same as US military use of Shannon.

You should probably hold a protest about it. Thatll show them.

I would have more respect for that.

And?

nobody think any irony at all that O'Dea was dressing himself up in the green flag during 1916 Rising anniversary and now is welcoming a British Royal Navy warship ??? no not even a tiny incy wincy bit of irony at tall atall???

No.

dbnavan

toiletduck wrote:

not really, it's a friendly visit by our closest neighbours navy. it's not a stopoff on it's way to a conflict area.


we are not and never have been neutral

I dont know what history Books you read when has the Republic ever entered a war and not been on a peace keeping mission, I fail to understand what business any warship has entering Irish waters. If anything it makes us a target to british enemies, in the Middle east.

homah_7ft

Ohyeah wrote:

HMS Ocean that served in Iraq is coming to Dublin port on June 29th. :mad: I think this is much the same as US military use of Shannon.

Shannon is being used to support the operation in Iraq. That is why it's a completely different situation.

toiletduck

dbnavan wrote:

I dont know what history Books you read when has the Republic ever entered a war and not been on a peace keeping mission, I fail to understand what business any warship has entering Irish waters. If anything it makes us a target to british enemies, in the Middle east.

during the second world war, any allied pilots that crashed here were returned to the north whereas german pilots were kept in the curragh, american planes were allowed to fly over donegal to their bases in the north.

during the cold war, the main reason we didnt join nato is because of the north.

we have supported u.s. actions in iraq in both wars and kosovo i believe by facilitating stopovers.

currently we rely on a nato country (britains raf) to help defend our skies.

oh and by the way, you dont have to be neutral to go on peace-keeping missions

lostexpectation

toiletduck wrote:

during the cold war, the main reason we didnt join nato is because of the north.

explain this to me, if 'we' were fighting the british in any way then we would have been on the wrong side for NATO?

toiletduck

lostexpectation wrote:

explain this to me, if 'we' were fighting the british in any way then we would have been on the wrong side for NATO?

could you explain what you mean?

my post above outlines some points that show we were not a neutral country.

Ohyeah

Ohyeah wrote:

They should make the case for Ireland to join the western military alliance rather than pretending every step we make twoards it is not "undermining our traditional policy of neutraility" as Willie O' Dea says ALL THE TIME :mad:

Just because we are not neutral in practice does not mean we should go running off joining military alliance. France took an anti-US stance in the Gulf War but allows military aircraft use its airspace - now THAT'S hypocrisy. We make no bones about lending a hand to the US, sure our neutrality is eroded, but wouldn't be in favour of signing up to military alliances either.

Moriarty

lostexpectation wrote:

explain this to me, if 'we' were fighting the british in any way then we would have been on the wrong side for NATO?

Ireland's main reason for refusing to join NATO was due to partition in the north. Ireland went as far as directly offering to sign a seperate military alliance to align with the US, equivalent to NATO accords, but the US refused as they wanted everyone under the NATO umbrella instead of a cluster of mish-mash alliances.

If it wasn't for partition, we would have been founding members of NATO.

the_syco

Damn. May be working that day. Would love to pop over and get a few pictures. Wonder if they do tours? Would be able to get close up shots of the planes, AA-guns, etc. Sweeeeeet:cool::cool::cool:

civdef

Aren't the Us, British and the various other troops in Iraq under a UN mandate? <insert appropriate security council resolutions here>.

Therefore isn't Ireland, as a responsible members of the international community, and committed supporters of the UN Ireland obliged to support these troop movements by allowing Shannon to be used for stopovers?

Do people who find British ships visiting Ireland are a problem have the same issues with Royal Airforce maritime patrol aircraft regularly overflying Irish airspace? How about Royal Navy anti-submarine helicopters?

jhegarty

civdef wrote:

Aren't the Us, British and the various other troops in Iraq under a UN mandate? <insert appropriate security council resolutions here>.

Therefore isn't Ireland, as a responsible members of the international community, and committed supporters of the UN Ireland obliged to support these troop movements by allowing Shannon to be used for stopovers?

Do people who find British ships visiting Ireland are a problem have the same issues with Royal Airforce maritime patrol aircraft regularly overflying Irish airspace? How about Royal Navy anti-submarine helicopters?

Its not only a UN mandate , they are there at the request of the elected goverment of Iraq.....

lostexpectation

jhegarty wrote:

Its not only a UN mandate , they are there at the request of the elected goverment of Iraq.....

a post-humous mandate and a occupation goverment

civdef

The mandate is very clear in that it authorises the presence of the US troops in Iraq. Troops that have passed through Shannon since the mandate was given are on a UN approved mission. Are you disputing that?

jhegarty

lostexpectation wrote:

a post-humous mandate and a occupation goverment

are you saying the first elections in Iraq in a long time are void.... who do you recognise as the legitimate leader ? sadam ?

would you recognise the first elections in west germany after the war (still had us troops there) or should the last elected leader still be in power....

Hobbes

civdef wrote:

The mandate is very clear in that it authorises the presence of the US troops in Iraq.

There are rumours that the Iraq government may soon tell the US to leave Iraq. Do you think that (a) They will actually leave and (b) That if they don't we will stop them routing though Ireland?

jhegarty

Hobbes wrote:

There are rumours that the Iraq government may soon tell the US to leave Iraq. Do you think that (a) They will actually leave and (b) That if they don't we will stop them routing though Ireland?

I think they would leave, as they have said in the past they would if asked to.... whatever support bush has at home would go if he stated there uninvited...

silverharp

Ohyeah wrote:

HMS Ocean that served in Iraq is coming to Dublin port on June 29th. :mad: I think this is much the same as US military use of Shannon.

I would have more respect for the government if they just said we are not neutral:(

why keep up the illusion that we are. We should admit it to ourselves that we are just part of the western military alliance, not signed up members of NATO, but certainly unisgned ones

see this Daily Ireland article http://dailyireland.televisual.co.uk/home.tvt?_scope=DailyIreland/Content/News&id=32349&opp=1&_ticket=R1SEAOWM4BEFURUSKON9ANWPOIA9CHVTWRRLIUPBAOWGCUKACK3243QFIR0AAMTECYLGBHSI7W2EIOPNPQSEANYDDGSGW4YMHONDLHBR9LLDPISKYQRFLZHXWMTEDYKACNWFURXOHONDLALVK666Q

see this debate http://www.politics.ie/news_index.php?topic_id=12529

So what! , unless it's here for it's NCT, I don't have a problem with it, if you ever have to be rescued at sea by an RAF helicopter, are you going to ask where it's been in the past before you let it pick you up?

Victor

civdef wrote:

The mandate is very clear in that it authorises the presence of the US troops in Iraq. Troops that have passed through Shannon since the mandate was given are on a UN approved mission. Are you disputing that?

Didn't it more recognise that they were the de facto power (much as the Germans ran the General Government in Poland), rather than they had any right to be there.

civdef

As far as the UN is concerned the occupation ended on the 30th June 2004, and the current Iraqi government is the legitimate government of Iraq. The multinational forces are in Iraq at the request of the Iraqi government, and will leave if asked - though I doubt that request will be made any time soon.

Resolution 1511 2003

13. Determines that the provision of security and stability is essential to
the successful completion of the political process as outlined in paragraph
7 above and to the ability of the United Nations to contribute effectively
to that process and the implementation of resolution 1483 (2003), and
authorizes a multinational force under unified command to take all
necessary measures to contribute to the maintenance of security and
stability in Iraq, including for the purpose of ensuring necessary
conditions for the implementation of the timetable and programme as well as
to contribute to the security of the United Nations Assistance Mission for
Iraq, the Governing Council of Iraq and other institutions of the Iraqi
interim administration, and key humanitarian and economic infrastructure;

http://daccess-ods.un.org/access.nsf/Get?Open&DS=S/RES/1511%20(2003)&Lang=E&Area=UNDOC

Also 1546 2004

9. Notes that the presence of the multinational force in Iraq is at the request of the incoming Interim Government of Iraq and therefore reaffirms the authorization for the multinational force under unified command established under resolution 1511 (2003) having regard to the letters annexed to this resolution;
http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N04/381/16/PDF/N0438116.pdf?OpenElement

Ohyeah

those who predicted a protest on this thread have been proved correct, if seems the anti war movement are organising one :rolleyes:

(metioned on indymedia site)

Won't be there myself but despit some of the comments in this thread I do kind off agree with it.

I know its not going to a war zone..and I know that the RAF saves drowners etc in Irish waters..but still this ship was involved at the start of a war that has proved a disaster (everyone must agree on that) a disaster that has led to thousands of dead

Sarsfield

Having read the article, what worries me most is that HMS Oceans visit seems to be an attempt to sell us weak British beer. :eek: Now there's something worth protesting about