Wither Ireland (or "The Deal is Off")

DublinWriter

I’m not sure where to post this thread as it takes in so many issues of sociology, politics and lifestyle, but I’m sure some “friendly” mod will shepherd it to it’s rightly place.

For the past 2 years I’ve looked a lot of you 20-somethings hang-ring about the property market and how much you should be paid as a fresh graduate.

But first, let’s go back in time a bit. Even during Ireland’s darkest economic days, for our parents, all the sureties were there. School, work, marriage, house, kids, retirement, death.

For starters, I wouldn’t like to be starting off in this country now. Play by the rules, get a degree, get a job and where are you? On a salary of 25K, maybe with prospects of moving in the high 30’s in a year or two, but that still won’t buy you a house.

Get married? Of course, it will take a dual income to buy a shoe box apartment in Dublin now, but then you want kids? Crèche fees, school fees (isn’t that what your paying tax for, or were you lied to about refuge charges costing extra and water charges costing extra?)

Your kid needs specialist orthodontic treatment? Cough up 10K. You want to move from your shoebox to a semi-d? Stamp duty. You need medical treatment? Better have a VHI/BUPA family plan costing you 3K a year.

For the past five years I’ve listened to the media bang-on about how rich we’ve all become. Wrong. The reality is that those with pre-Celtic Tiger equity (i.e. property) have become seriously rich.

We’re only rich in the sense that many of us “olds” accidentally bought into a market that we never would have foresaw as becoming so powerful.

For years we’ve trusted our political betters in a “don’t fuck with me and I won’t fuck with you” kinda way. But you know what? If I was 18 again right now, I’d drop right the hell out of the rat-race and live that life that I wanted.

If I was young again now, the whole deal would be off. I’d become a productive member of society if the associated rewards were there for me to enjoy.

Market forces may all be well and good in the airline sector, but in the educational and medical sector too?

It is just me or does anyone else here think that we’ve been sold out to laizze-faire social economic politics?

Sand

For starters, I wouldn’t like to be starting off in this country now. Play by the rules, get a degree, get a job and where are you? On a salary of 25K, maybe with prospects of moving in the high 30’s in a year or two, but that still won’t buy you a house.

Meh. I bought a place on 25K. My salary has risen well above the high 30s, and Ive a second place at this stage. Im fairly young - only working for a few years at this stage. TBH, the only real problem with buying a place is the A) The deposit, The Stamp Duty (Which is basically government theft) and C) Legal Fees (which will be less than 1 Grand anyway).

Is it tough now? Sure - but its always tough. I remember my Dad digging out an old paycheque of his from the 80s ..... half his pay taken in tax and having to support a family on 75 pounds a week? Before mortgage payment. Before utility bills. Wasnt easy for my parents to scrape together the cash to buy their first house, especially when they didnt have any family ready to hand over nesteggs to help them. We have it tough? Bollocks tbh. We have more pressures, but we have more opportunities as well. Our grandparents would have had the same fears for our parents.

I think some times this country has a truly short memory span. The concept of Charlie being praised as some herculean figure raising us to greatness is laughable. The country was so ****ed by the late 80s (and a lot of this down to Charlie himself) that even the opposition agreed to stop bollocking about and going with what *worked*. The problem with the Celtic Tiger is that the same ****e (raise taxes! drive out foreign investment! Ireland for the Irish!) that screwed us right up to the 90s is coming back as we get comftable again and forget the hard lessons learned during the late 70s and 80s. Its got to the stage where I secretly wish for another bout of the 80s to finally kill off those communist zombies who think they can still fight the market.

It is just me or does anyone else here think that we’ve been sold out to laizze-faire social economic politics?

With a government like Bertie, Charlie and Co do you really want the government running everything? Who gave us cheap air travel? Bertie or Ryanair? Who do you think is *really* doing us? Thats the real trouble us Irish have - the concept that the government just might be corrupt/incompetent seems one the one hand undeniable, but on the other completely impossible.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

As my knowledge of recent econmic history or politics is not as good as it really should be, I'm going to come at this from a different, more personal angle.

I'm 34. I don't own a house, nor do I want to. At least, not in Dublin. My salary is in the just short of 30k. I paint, and I love it, but not professionally. I travel a lot. At some point in the next month or so, I'm going to walk into my boss's office, hand in notice, and **** off to the continent for a month or so. No idea what I'm going to do - might work a bit, might not.

The idea of working 50+ hours a week in order to own a 'shoebox' in a city which has little social life beyond drinking to me is a nightmare. And then spending in the rest of my week in said shoebox because I've sod all money left after I pay the bills is depressing.

It's not the economic climate I'm thinking of here, it's more the social attitudes that have come with it. People either think I'm insane or immature for the choices I make and should get with the 'real' world, or they wish they had my courage and freedom. One way or the other, they've fallen victims to conditioning.

Or, in other words as the OP put it, sold out....

Hotblack Desiato

DublinWriter wrote:

Even during Ireland’s darkest economic days, for our parents, all the sureties were there. School, work, marriage, house, kids, retirement, death.

<python>If you were lucky</python>
Those who did well enough to marry, raise a family (pre-welfare state) and buy their own home, without ever leaving Ireland, were lucky indeed. Many took the boat with a few shillings in their pocket (all except 2 of my father's family of 12, never to return.) Large numbers of Irishmen ended up as hopeless alcoholics in Britain; significant numbers of women in "mother and baby homes", or forced to flee their native land before their pregnancy was discovered. What sureties did any of them have? I think you need to take off the rose-tinted spectacles.

For starters, I wouldn’t like to be starting off in this country now. Play by the rules, get a degree, get a job and where are you? On a salary of 25K, maybe with prospects of moving in the high 30’s in a year or two, but that still won’t buy you a house.

Tough. Rent for up to ten years, upskill, progress in your career and then struggle to buy a shoebox, as the 90's generation did.
Who on earth thinks that two years out of college they should be buying a house?
Who on earth two years out of college would have the financial discipline to do so, even if they earned enough?

Get married? Of course, it will take a dual income to buy a shoe box apartment in Dublin now, but then you want kids? Crèche fees, school fees

Kids are an economic choice too you know. School fees? You could just slum it in the public system, which at least is nominally free...

Your kid needs specialist orthodontic treatment? Cough up 10K.

So what if they won't look like a movie star. There are many more serious injustices in this society.

For the past five years I’ve listened to the media bang-on about how rich we’ve all become. Wrong. The reality is that those with pre-Celtic Tiger equity (i.e. property) have become seriously rich.

No. They've only become rich on paper. Your principal private residence vastly increasing in value is all very well, but in the end you still need a roof over your head. The real beneficiaries are investors and those who inherit (having already purchased their own residence.)
Those trading up and those hoping to gain a share of an inheritance in order to step onto the ladder gain little or nothing from rising prices.

But you know what? If I was 18 again right now, I’d drop right the hell out of the rat-race and live that life that I wanted.

That's always been an option. Fine, just don't expect me to finance your alternative lifestyle on my euro.

If I was young again now, the whole deal would be off. I’d become a productive member of society if the associated rewards were there for me to enjoy.

Rubbish. The rewards are still there, and as always they don't come instantly.

It is just me or does anyone else here think that we’ve been sold out to laizze-faire social economic politics?

I think we've been sold out to way too many whining clueless soft-left commentators in the media, tbh.

nesf

DublinWriter wrote:

For the past 2 years I’ve looked a lot of you 20-somethings hang-ring about the property market and how much you should be paid as a fresh graduate.

Fair enough, I agree. A lot of people have a delusion that a degree entitles you to an automatic 50K a year salary. It doesn't ability and experience are the only things that you can bank on for this, and that doesn't always work.

DublinWriter wrote:

But first, let’s go back in time a bit. Even during Ireland’s darkest economic days, for our parents, all the sureties were there. School, work, marriage, house, kids, retirement, death.

Where were you living? Where I'm from the 60s-80s were dark. My mother didn't finish primary school because if she didn't work there wasn't enough money for food. Welcome to the country, it was a ****load darker than anything going on in the cities which were at least visible and had infrastructure. Life was never easy, rose-tinted spectacles put aside anyways.

DublinWriter wrote:

For starters, I wouldn’t like to be starting off in this country now. Play by the rules, get a degree, get a job and where are you? On a salary of 25K, maybe with prospects of moving in the high 30’s in a year or two, but that still won’t buy you a house.

At least there's a job waiting for you. Double digit unemployment of the 80s were a fact of life for a lot of our parents when they had us, their little 20 somethings. It's still fairly ****ing bad in some rural areas, you're lucky to land anything over 20K starting out, degree or not. What if you're a farmer and tied to the land? Not a nice position to be in at the moment. Widen your perspective, the majority of us don't live in Dublin and our perspectives are quite different.

DublinWriter wrote:

Get married? Of course, it will take a dual income to buy a shoe box apartment in Dublin now, but then you want kids? Crèche fees, school fees (isn’t that what your paying tax for, or were you lied to about refuge charges costing extra and water charges costing extra?)

Pessimism. Dual income is not needed for your shoebox appartment, even in Dublin. There are many ways around it (parents, siblings etc etc). Plus, nothing wrong with renting until your income is suitable to pursue house buying. Why do you need to buy in your 20s if you don't have kids?

DublinWriter wrote:

Your kid needs specialist orthodontic treatment? Cough up 10K. You want to move from your shoebox to a semi-d? Stamp duty. You need medical treatment? Better have a VHI/BUPA family plan costing you 3K a year.

We're 20 somethings. Most of us don't have kids. I will in a few weeks but guess what, I already have VHI, even at 3K a year it's grand. Tax deductable and tbh one major operation will pay for it.

DublinWriter wrote:

For the past five years I’ve listened to the media bang-on about how rich we’ve all become. Wrong. The reality is that those with pre-Celtic Tiger equity (i.e. property) have become seriously rich.

Partially true. We have become "richer" in that our standard of living and our standard income has increased. From this analysis this is 100% correct. You forget that such statements are broad and can have multiple justifications. Plus, the seriously rich also include those who were in the right trades/professions and this is a very good time to have your own business compared to the 80s. People have more disposable income and that is a very good thing for most business people at some level. There are areas that are not so good (IT can be an ugly one) but some like sales are very nice atm (if horribly stressful compared to other jobs).

DublinWriter wrote:

We’re only rich in the sense that many of us “olds” accidentally bought into a market that we never would have foresaw as becoming so powerful.

For years we’ve trusted our political betters in a “don’t fuck with me and I won’t fuck with you” kinda way. But you know what? If I was 18 again right now, I’d drop right the hell out of the rat-race and live that life that I wanted.

So? Plenty of people are happy to go into the rat race, personally I'm not one of them but for a lot of people the potential rewards are worth it. As for the rich comment see above, your perspectives for this are flawed.

DublinWriter wrote:

If I was young again now, the whole deal would be off. I’d become a productive member of society if the associated rewards were there for me to enjoy.

Market forces may all be well and good in the airline sector, but in the educational and medical sector too?

It is just me or does anyone else here think that we’ve been sold out to laizze-faire social economic politics?

Look. Bluntly, you are ranting from a very limited perspective of your own "take" on things. I'm not sure why this is applicable to all of us. For one, you seem to have no idea of what conditions are like outside of Dublin, it's a VERY different world out here if I was to believe your own views on how Dublin is (and it isn't that way from what I've seen). No one is forced to enter the rat race, they can choose other paths.

Some of your points are grand, but limited in scope. We are not all "in the rat race" and scraping by on 25K a year after college. You seem to have missed the majority of my own personal problems with the country, then not actually being in my position, you probably know little about what it's like to be young in this country. Your perspectives are coloured by the occasional rant you hear, but for the most part you've missed most of the issues facing people in their 20s in this country imho.

Jackie laughlin

Because it is all powerful, let's build an altar to the great god, Market, and fall before it in adoration. Let us forego thought because it makes us doubt Market's goodness.

Not the Ryanair myth again! Ryanair owes its existence to Seamus Brennan commanding that Aer Lingus not compete. At a crucial moment he ordered AL not to fly to Stanstead.

fly_agaric

ninja900, almost everything you wrote makes alot of sense, but I have to say...

Kids are an economic choice too you know.

I am so, so sick of the use of "economics" to reduce everything.
I don't know much about economics but is it really a replacement for all the other sciences, and maybe religion too?

Nesf wrote:

Welcome to the country, it was a ****load darker than anything going on in the cities which were at least visible and had infrastructure.

I don't know. I think DublinWriter (surprise, surprise) is looking at things in the 80's with a Dublin perspective alright but that would be a reasonably well-off, "middle-class" perspective as suggested by...

Even during Ireland’s darkest economic days, for our parents, all the sureties were there. School, work, marriage, house, kids, retirement, death.

DublinWriter

I guess I muddied the waters by as usual, looking at the past with rose tinted classes.

I grew up in Dublin in the 70's and 80's and they were tough times, but not as grim as my own parents' experiences growing up here in the 50's and 60's.

I guess what I was really trying to say was why bother joining the rat-race if you are an early twenty-something these days.

It's a bit of a nilhistic argument, sure, but considering how inequitable Irish life has become, I felt it was one worth expressing.

Zombrex

Sand wrote:

Meh. I bought a place on 25K. My salary has risen well above the high 30s, and Ive a second place at this stage. Im fairly young - only working for a few years at this stage. TBH, the only real problem with buying a place is the A) The deposit, The Stamp Duty (Which is basically government theft) and C) Legal Fees (which will be less than 1 Grand anyway).

Er, how the hell did you do that?!?

Was it in Dublin?? Did you have help from anyone (parents, girlfriend, wife, dead great aunt)

I know of know one who owns two properties in Dublin on a salary under 40K

What is your secret

MadsL

Ryanair owes its existence to Seamus Brennan commanding that Aer Lingus not compete. At a crucial moment he ordered AL not to fly to Stanstead.

On a personal note: Bástard. That is all.

Hotblack Desiato

fly_agaric wrote:

I am so, so sick of the use of "economics" to reduce everything.
I don't know much about economics but is it really a replacement for all the other sciences, and maybe religion too?

No it's just about being responsible about being able to support the children one brings into the world and giving them a good start in life.

simu

ninja900 wrote:

No it's just about being responsible about being able to support the children one brings into the world and giving them a good start in life.

To a degree but you don't want to wait until your ovaries shrivel either!