Not a Socialist after all

Diaspora

Higgins feels the new thud of Ahern response
From:ireland.com
Wednesday, 21st June, 2006


Taoiseach Bertie Ahern branded Socialist Party TD Joe Higgins a "failed person" in an angry outburst in the Dáil today.

During a debate on housing, Mr Higgins said the Taoiseach had made no mention of policies to stem ever-increasing house prices. "Is that because you have no measures to stop them?" Mr Higgins inquired.

The Taoiseach responded angrily saying new houses were being built for the "young people and the working class of this country" at a faster rate than any other state in Europe.

He said Mr Higgins had the "most hopeless policy that I ever heard pursued by any nitwit.You're a failed person, you were rejected and your political philosophy was rejected.

"You're not going to pull people back because of the failed old policies that you dreamt up in south Kerry when you were a young fella. Now go away."

Mr Higgins is the only Socialist Party TD in the Dáil and donates the surplus of his wages above the average industrial wage to his party. The latest figures show he donated €37,077.

Mr Ahern earns over €246,000 - one of the highest rates of pay for a head of government in the EU.

He once famously claimed that he and Mr Higgins were two of only three genuine socialists in the Dáil.

The pair have clashed in the Dáil in the past. Mr Higgins once described Mr Ahern's answers as like "playing handball against a hay stack". "Your hear a dull thud but the ball never comes back to you," Mr Higgins told the House in 2003.

I am no fan of Joe Higgins but there is no place in the Dail for that level of personnal attack under any circumstances by the head of state and this comes after the Willie Walsh slander.

If I were Enda Kenny I would be looking forward to the head to head electoral debate on RTE in May next

Nuttzz

Nice one Bertie

Morlar

Nuttzz wrote:

Nice one Bertie

Couldnt agree more.

super_furry

Ahern again shows himself up for the idiot he is. There pressure of his failures must be really getting to him is he's stooped to launching personal attacks in the Dail.

DublinWriter

Diaspora wrote:

I am no fan of Joe Higgins but there is no place in the Dail for that level of personnal attack under any circumstances by the head of state and this comes after the Willie Walsh slander.

A crusty aul' leftie he may be, but he's the only one in that entire snakepit with any degree of personal and professional integrity.

The fact that he only keeps the industrial average wage portion of his generous TD salary and donates the rest to charity speaks volumes about the man...he's nuts!

Seriously, it's very refreshing, especially when you see the tax-free expenses (usually published yearly in league form by the Sunday Business Post) that average at about 60K per TD which are claimed *as well as* salaries.

But what he achieved today is very much a "Kerry" tactic.

I was once thought some negotiational tactics by the Director of a company I used to work with years ago. He was a wirey little Kerry-man. He told me the trick was to never show any emotion, but carefully manipulate your opponent into making a rash display of emotion. Once they've done that, they've as good as lost the argument.

You see it on boards all the time!

Dirk Gently

Whether or not you agree with Higgins politics nobody can deny his integrity and passion to highlight injustices. Higgins could never be described as being a career politician or of selling out. He has what others in the opposition lack....balls.
Looks like comrade Bertie has finally shown his true feelings about Higgins. The tactic of brushing Higgins remarks off and making light of his questions appears not to have worked and Bertie now shows his frustration of his only realistic opponent in the Dail. A shift in tactics when dealing with Higgins as in the past he has commented on what a good speaker he is if not agreeing politically with him. No doubt Bertie would prefer if all the opposition politicians were as weak as pet rabbit and nice guy Enda.

Dirk Gently

Diaspora wrote:

If I were Enda Kenny I would be looking forward to the head to head electoral debate on RTE in May next

If I were Enda I would get my act together before next may and work on my delivery during speeches. Hopefully Labour and FG will somehow have something worth debating with Bertie next may. Wouldn't fancy Enda in a live T.V. debate with Bertie at this moment in time. Others such as mc Dowell and Cowen would also run rings around him.

constitutionus

god i love higgins, he's the only one in the dail berties scared of. the man can evade rabbite and run rings around kenny but evey time higgins opens his mouth the last month hes scored direct hits on the "teflon" taoiseach. bertie threw a hissy fit the last time joe mentioned monarch properties and their involvement with FF and the galway races tent but this is the first time ive really seen him lose the rag and insult the man. he always at least attempts to try to look like he's tried to answer pat and endas questions but he point blank refuses to go near higgins one's. he must be delighted he doesnt get the chance that often thanks to the talking rights in the dail

but you know what? the thing that gets me is if i was enda or pat and i saw bertie losing the rag over this issue id be thinking "hmmm weak spot here, joes onto something . lets exploit it!", yet they're not. so i have to ask the question . what have labour and FG been up to with the property developers that stops em laying into bertie like joe?

and why do i get the feeling the reasons already been mentioned, they dont have the integrity joes got and are quite happy with the way things are in the housing market . heres hoping joe gets a few more seats come the election, god knows someone needs to keep em honest in there and higgins track record been exemplary lately

monument

"failed person"

Would have thought that was below Ahern.

TheVan

Look, Bertie did go over the top.....but did anyone pay attention to what Higgins said?

Higgins resorted to the lowest common denominator, basically saying that Bertie was to blame for the shortage in housing and insinuating that Bertie and current FF TD's had taken bribes from the construction industry.

He took the false perception that "all FFers are crooked" and tried to use it as legitimate politics.

He also did his best to pi5s Bertie off by attacking Charlie personally. Now lets not have a Haughey debate, but people do know that Bertie and Haughey were close, so he knew it would drive Bertie mad.

He also attacked Bertie's oration at Haughey's grave, for saying he did good as well as bad.

DublinWriter

constitutionus wrote:

but you know what? the thing that gets me is if i was enda or pat and i saw bertie losing the rag over this issue id be thinking "hmmm weak spot here, joes onto something . lets exploit it!", yet they're not. so i have to ask the question . what have labour and FG been up to with the property developers that stops em laying into bertie like joe?

You really have to realise that we're more like the US than the UK when it comes to our political class. (Kerry is Bush's cousin by marriage, unbelivably).

You see, in the UK, someone like McDowell would have been run out of town on a rail for the recent child-rapists scandal.

But here? Most of FF/FG/LAB/PD political class attended the same colleges, intermarried, drink in the same watering holes. It's one big boy's club. They're not about to piss in each others' Corn Flakes just because callers to the Joe Duffy show are asking for someone's head on a plate.

Philistine

constitutionus wrote:

what have labour and FG been up to with the property developers that stops em laying into bertie like joe?

As much as I abhor FF they are not, in fairness, the only party that have had councillors bribed by developers (sorry meant - recieved election donations from developers!) I'm fairly sure the tribunals have uncovered 1 or 2 non FFers out of the many outted councillors to have recieved these same donations !

Bertie's mask slips again !

DadaKopf

That's a good point, DW. But I think there are some strong cultural differences between parties worth taking into account, too.

And commenting on what TheVan said, I think cabinet joint-responsibility is a strong enough reason to blame Bertie, he's the head of the cabinet. But more than that, I remember reading a news article a year or two ago that reported how, when after the government had passed new planning legislation that obligated developers to provide (what's it) 10% socially affordable housing, he was collared by some influential property developers at the Leopardstown or Galway races and basically given an ultimatum to change the law so developers can buy their way out.

I think while it appears that the developer lobby has very personal relation with FF, I think they're simply so powerful in this country that FG and Labour are lying low for the moment so that they can get in. I met a private lobbyist who worked for property developers and the stories she tells (while all legal) would turn your hair green.

And I want to know much more about decentralisation - it's the biggest property scam in Irish history I reckon, and we'll only find out the extent of it in a decade, when the damage is done.

I back Higgins 100% on what he said (I'd also imagine he was encouraged to do this by Lab or FF because they can't - sound tactic). This may prove to be one of Higgins' finest hours. I'll be interested to see how Bertie and his chums try to clean up after this. Maybe he'll send out his attack dog, John O'Donaghue to bore us all to death.

Macy

TheVan wrote:

Higgins resorted to the lowest common denominator, basically saying that Bertie was to blame for the shortage in housing and insinuating that Bertie and current FF TD's had taken bribes from the construction industry.

Well he is - he was in charge when the builders were sitting on the land banks watching the value go up of both housing and land leading to the situation we have now. Labour, the Greens and Joe Higgins all flagged this in the late 90's, early 00's, and suggested windfall taxes and taxes on land zoned residential that was not being developed. The Government did nothing in this regard.

Whether bribes or large donations in a tent in Galway races, FF's hands are dirty with regard to housing in this country, in particular in the Dublin area. Higgins was right to flag the fact that their inaction has lead to ridiculous house prices and long commutes, when they could've increased supply that would've at least lead to sustainable house price growth.

Chakar

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20060621.xml&Node=H2&Page=2

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20060621.xml&Node=H2&Page=3

When you read the exchange between the two men, Joe Higgins really insults and patronises Bertie Ahern.Joe Higgins uses the emotive language and personal attacks that is reminiscient of socialists.No wonder Bertie berated Joe Higgins he was totally out of control there.

And that socialist comment that was not exactly a black and white comment, it was a very broad comment he was referring to social democracy.Socialism is a wide range of ideologies and this was what he intended.Have a look at the typical social democracy model of which social democrats include Tony Blair.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy#Views_of_Social_Democrats_today

DublinWriter

DadaKopf wrote:

That's a good point, DW. But I think there are some strong cultural differences between parties worth taking into account, too.

Yeah...and mostly dating back to 1922. We've moved on, but I don't think that they have.

FF versus FG? You might as well argue the toss over McDonalds and BurgerKing.

monument

Chakar wrote:

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20060621.xml&Node=H2&Page=2

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20060621.xml&Node=H2&Page=3

When you read the exchange between the two men, Joe Higgins really insults and patronises Bertie Ahern.

Can you copy and paist quotes here, most people won't look at pages of Dail records just to guess what you're talking about - any thing as near bad as "failed person"?

Chakar wrote:

And that socialist comment that was not exactly a black and white comment, it was a very broad comment he was referring to social democracy.

The term can be broad, but his claim was not…

"He once famously claimed that he and Mr Higgins were two of only three genuine socialists in the Dáil" - Irish Times online.

Chakar

Its only two pages, one page per link!! so have a look, and obviously the socialist comment Ahern made wasn't true as he's obviously not a socialist.

Dirk Gently

Chakar wrote:

And that socialist comment that was not exactly a black and white comment, it was a very broad comment he was referring to social democracy.Socialism is a wide range of ideologies and this was what he intended.Have a look at the typical social democracy model of which social democrats include Tony Blair.

In fairness that comments was made as a dig at Joe Higgins as part of Berties tactic of brushing aside and dealing with Higgins in a humorous way. He said that he and Joe where the last socialists, implying that they were the last true socialists and not social democracy in which case everyone in the Dail would be socialists except maybe the PD's. Why didn't he include the labour party in his comment if he was referring to social democracy? It was a light hearted joke aimed at Higgins in order to wind him up. I don't think he ever seriously attempted to paint himself and Higgins in the same ideology, even stretching the word socialist to include a FF leader.

True enough everyone does like to describe themselves as a socialist but I think Bertie was just having a bit of fun with that comment as he knows Higgins is a socialist in the true sense of the word.

A Dub in Glasgo

Bertie Ahern wrote:

most hopeless policy that I ever heard pursued by any nitwit.You're a failed person, you were rejected and your political philosophy was rejected.

The bold Bertie would be banned from this forum for that. Looks like we hold higher standards than those muppets in LH!

SeanW

It's well known how much the developers and the politicans love each other. Joe Higgins was right to bring it up - fair dues to him for that.

That Bertie couldn't answer except to resort to low-grade personal insults kinda proves what he said, as far as I'm concerned.

pete

Chakar wrote:

When you read the exchange between the two men, Joe Higgins really insults and patronises Bertie Ahern.Joe Higgins uses the emotive language and personal attacks that is reminiscient of socialists.No wonder Bertie berated Joe Higgins he was totally out of control there.

"Out of control"??????

Here's the question:

Mr. J. Higgins: The Permanent TSB-ESRI house price index makes chilling reading for tens of thousands of young working people in need of homes. In March 1996, the average price of a home in Dublin was €82,000. This year, ten years later, it is €384,000, an increase of €300,000. That represents a shocking €30,000 increase per year, the equivalent of the current average industrial wage each year for ten years. Prices outside Dublin have increased pro rata. Is there any appreciation by the Government of the dire situation facing young people who earn the average industrial wage and need a home or any recognition of the hardship of young parents who are saddled with 30 and 40 year mortgages? Are members of the Government so cosseted by their massive salaries that they are oblivious to the suffering, hardship and desperation?

This happened on the Taoiseach’s watch. He failed cataclysmically to stop the unbridled speculation by developers and house builders. Of course, that was deliberate. The matter goes all the way back to the devil’s pact made between Fianna Fáil and house builders and speculators in the 1960s. They bought the party’s councillors, who in turn corrupted planning in Dublin and, perhaps, other areas and created the nightmare we now have. They got everything they wanted. They bought the party’s former leader, who the Taoiseach eulogised unstintingly last Friday. The VIP pen in the Donnycarney church was like a major house builders’ convention. Oddly enough, the politicians were probably the poorest people there, with the exception of some of the Taoiseach’s colleagues who are publicans, landlords or dabblers in hair dressing salons in Moscow for the Russian nouveau riche.

This is a serious situation, with a serious downside. Speculators are buying houses in working class communities left, right and centre. A frightening percentage of homes in hitherto stable communities are now rented. Stable communities are being replaced by transient communities, by people who are forced into the laps of landlords, such as migrant workers and those on rent supplement. That means, for a Government which is completely unprepared, massive pressures on services. The Taoiseach is recreating in 2006 the alienated and neglected communities of the 1970s and 1980s in what were extensive council housing estates, yet the Government is oblivious to this.

What will the Taoiseach do during the time available to him to rectify this situation, to make homes affordable and to stabilise communities so that ordinary working people can live stable lives?

Whhhoooaahhh steady on there, Joe. You wouldn't want to go hurting someone's feelings now, would you?

After Bertie's response (which i'll not bother pasting here since he said bugger all) it gets EVEN WORSE:

Mr. J. Higgins:The Taoiseach said nothing that will give consolation to the tens of thousands of young workers who need homes. He said nothing to console those stuck with 30 or 40 year mortgages. In fact, he lauded the concept of longer term mortgages. Some people will be saddled with mortgage repayments into their 70s. On the Taoiseach’s watch, the price of an ordinary home increased by nine times the rate of inflation. That makes a mockery of the Taoiseach’s commitment to so-called social partnership and the recent national wage agreement. Whereas one part of the so-called partnership is allowed to profiteer in an unbridled fashion, workers wages do not keep pace with the price of a home for young industrial workers. If so much money is being spent on social housing, why are 50,000 families on the housing waiting list? More social houses were built in the 1930s than in recent years.

Careful now, Joe. Careful.

Mr. J. Higgins: That is to the eternal shame of this Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrats Government. We do not hear a squawk from the Progressive Democrats about this. Naturally, as far as it is concerned, that is the capitalist market. The Taoiseach said nothing to indicate that house prices will stop increasing and gave no indication of a Government measure to stop the increase. Is that because the Government has no such measures or because the clatter of developers’ helicopters as they descend on the Fianna Fáil tent at the Galway races is drowning out the calls from tens of thousands of young people and their parents to stop this scandal of unbridled profiteering in the housing market?

Oh yeah, he's like totally out of control alright. Someone call the men in white coats.

monument

Chakar wrote:

Its only two pages, one page per link!! so have a look,

Can you quote where exactly “Joe Higgins really insults and patronises Bertie Ahern”? Yes or no?

Chakar wrote:

and obviously the socialist comment Ahern made wasn't true as he's obviously not a socialist.

And there was me thinking it was not an "exactly a black and white comment", and that "it was a very broad comment".

But now, you say, it’s obvious what Ahern was saying “wasn't true”.

lostexpectation

It was already said before but it has be said again Berite claimed he was socialist (does he see himself as social democrat?).

Berite has used this socialism failed diatribe many times before on Higgins its getting tired.

Dub13

Bertie Ahern wrote:

you were rejected and your political philosophy was rejected

Not by the 1000s of voters out in Dublin West who keep re electing Mr Higgins.

Jackie laughlin

Point of information: The Labour Party have been resisting land re-zoning scandals since the late 70s, i.e. long before the arrival of the Greens. The PDs in fairness have a clean record. The big money always involved FF but FG have a shameful record too.

To return to the point, while Bertie Ahearn should try to behave with some dignity, Joe Higgins is an anachronism. He led the Militant Tendency (Yes, the self same mad shower who bankrupted Liverpool!) when it was trying to infiltrate and take over the Irish Labour Party. The Labour Party reacted in time and expelled them. They fell apart and re-emerged as The Socialist Party.

However, his politics has not changed. He still doesn't understand class, especially the working class. His "socialism" is frozen somewhere in the first quarter of the 20th century. In short, he single handedly does a great deal of damage to Irish socialism in that he presents a soft, risible target that neo-liberals can poke fun at very successfully.

There are real socialists in Ireland. The vast majority of them are members of the Labour Party. The rest should join; it is the only sensible course.

Incidentally, Labour members of the Oireachtas and later the European Parliament have always donated a portion of their salaries to the Party.

DadaKopf

But the substance of what Higgins was saying, regardless of his ideological and political pedrigree, is spot on. And Bertie responded like a child because he knew he was licked, and because Higgins is a soft target for his ire.

Dirk Gently

Jackie laughlin wrote:

There are real socialists in Ireland. The vast majority of them are members of the Labour Party.

So the vast majority of Labour members believe socialism is the way forward and not capitalism or by real socialists do you mean capitalists with a social conscience. A real socialist set up the labour party alright but I fail to see how voting for the Labour party in the next election will deliver socialism. Looks to me like if I vote for the "real" socialists in Labour then I just get more of the same, rampant capitalism and free market policies with Enda in charge of it all. The labour party looks about as socialist an option as new labour across the water look. Apparently a Labour youth member who posted here before agrees with me and told me that Labour youth were far to the left of the Labour party proper. At the end of the day Higgins is the man who every week punches above his weight to land punches on Bertie and he has earned my respect from what I've seen of him compared to your "real socialists" in Labour. I'm only sorry that Higgins is not representing my area.

Jackie laughlin

Yes, DadaKopf, that's true.

lostexpectation

Jackie laughlin wrote:

However, his politics has not changed. He still doesn't understand class, especially the working class. His "socialism" is frozen somewhere in the first quarter of the 20th century.

You need to explain the jump from that sentence to this sentence

In short, he single handedly does a great deal of damage to Irish socialism in that he presents a soft, risible target that neo-liberals can poke fun at very successfully.

And in fact you need explain how he damages other socialists, because Bertie said socialism failed, socialism in Ireland will fail so what more damge can Joe bring to them.

lostexpectation

DadaKopf wrote:

I back Higgins 100% on what he said (I'd also imagine he was encouraged to do this by Lab or FF because they can't - sound tactic). This may prove to be one of Higgins' finest hours. I'll be interested to see how Bertie and his chums try to clean up after this. Maybe he'll send out his attack dog, John O'Donaghue to bore us all to death.

Many speeches in the Dail have covered this issue, little came of them and little will come of Joe's speech unfortunately