No sense of outrage

DublinWriter

So here we are, a month and a bit after the initial controversy of the child-rapists being realised, a month and a bit after the full might of the outside-broadcast unit of the Joe Duffy show was realised on Dail Eireann.

At the time people were crowing about "the straw that broke the camel's back" and going into full-on fist-waving mode in relation to support for the current government. The sense of outrage and anger was palpable.

So now were are we?

Yet another outrage we've almost totally forgotten and go 'Meh' at, just another one to add to the list, consigned to the memory hole with PPARS, A&E, the Widows Pensions and what-ever-your-having-yourself.

We really do lack a sense of outrage.

Silly Government. Sillier people.

mike65

What do you propose?

Mike.

constitutionus

to be honest most people dont do anything because whats the point? 100 thousand people came out to protest against the iraq war and our gov is still helping bush. theyve proved time and again that they wont listen to us and dont care when a buck is involved (" yes im sure theres nothing dodgy going on in those planes in shannon, we believe you. the fact your the biggest spending client in shannon airport and if you stopped coming we'd go broke has nothing to do with it":rolleyes: )
short of walking into the dail during leaders question time with twenty pounds of semtex strapped to you chest and detonating it i dont think anything we could do would get em to shape up.

thats why we dont have a sense of outrage, the gov feel too safe so dont care . personally im waiting to hit em where it hurts, in the ballot box . i have a feeling the next dail will have the highest number of independants and fringe types in the history of the state:D

DublinWriter

constitutionus wrote:

short of walking into the dail during leaders question time with twenty pounds of semtex strapped to you chest and detonating it i dont think anything we could do would get em to shape up.

Well this is the thing isn't it? 80% of SSIA subscribers signed-up in the last month of the offer. So taking out my crystal-ball, FF/PD will call the next General Election in May of next year, just between the time that we cash in and our economy/inflation-rate goes ape-shit from the fall-out.

What can you do? Plenty. The Brits put us to shame when it comes to direct action. Chucking eggs at the Deputy Prime-Minister and dressing up as Batman and Robin and invading Buckingham palace!

Here? Noooo no. That would be illegal and against the rules!

Honestly, I almost vomit when working abroad and people tell me that the Irish are 'rebellious' when I know that we're one of the most cowed and timid nations on the planet.

If the government brought in a 'walking licence' today, there'd be queues at Post Offices tomorrow morning of people wanting to purchase them.

Philistine

We Irish are known as a nation that doesn't know how to complain or doesn't complain often or strongly enough. We're too laid back and take the attitude that others will attend protest marches or rallies or sign petitions. We need to be more assertive in our protest...like the French truck drivers and air traffic controllers...true pro's who know how to get the governments attention !

Silly Government. Sillier people.

Seems to me, no matter who we vote for, we end up with incompetent gobsheens in the Dail !:(

Heinrich

If the government brought in a 'walking licence' today, there'd be queues at Post Offices tomorrow morning of people wanting to purchase them.

Basically people are sheep. The current debacles in the health service, Dublin port tunnel, road traffic, gangland shootings, hunger strikes in protesting for political asylum etc are a sad reflection ou the voters!

The negative answer to all ills is "the best of a bad lot" retort. How is this bad lot adjudged? Certainly not on performance. The public are being duped with spin.

1. There is an increase in gangland shootings and it will continue
2. It is not pc to critisise travellers who kick the sh1t out of publicans or run riot in small towns or hold raucous and violent funerals in churches!
3. Say anything other that the divine right of Afghans to use a Cathedral for their stage show (hunger strike)

the list goes on and we moan for a day or so and when the next election comes around the turnout will be predictably below a decent percentage and the incompetents will return.

bonkey

DublinWriter wrote:

We really do lack a sense of outrage.

No we don't. The Irish are very good at getting outraged. They're just pretty poor (as are the public of most nations) about getting anything done about the source of their outrage, or about maintaining that outrage focussed on single issues.

The_Minister

DublinWriter wrote:

So taking out my crystal-ball, FF/PD will call the next General Election in May of next year, just between the time that we cash in and our economy/inflation-rate goes ape-****.

Actually Bertie said to the month, when the election would be. He said it on Tuberty Tonight. (I can't remember which month)

Chakar

June actually

Heinrich

bonkey wrote:

No we don't. The Irish are very good at getting outraged. They're just pretty poor (as are the public of most nations) about getting anything done about the source of their outrage, or about maintaining that outrage focussed on single issues.

Sorry, I would not class MOANING as outrage!

Can we borrow Christophe Blocher for a Dail rattle up?

flogen

I agree with bonkey; the country can get outraged at the drop of a hat, dealing with the problem is another thing.
Perhaps we need a major incident to finally get people moving, but God knows what it would take... I honestly thought there would be at least 1 resignation from the crisis you mention, but we've gotten nothing at all; there is a lack of accountability in our democracy, it takes serious levels of corruption to force people out, incompetence isn't an issue at all (perhaps it's because Irish people don't expect other Irish people to do well, so we're not surprised when our governments screw up)

Philistine

flogen wrote:

I honestly thought there would be at least 1 resignation

Ah flogen, did you reeeaaally think somebody would resign ? You're an optimist ! I don't think there's a precedent for politicians in this country resigning over scandals - no matter how bad. If they had any decency and fell on there sword over such matters...there'd be a lot of dead bodies around Leinster House !!!

John_C

flogen wrote:

I agree with bonkey; the country can get outraged at the drop of a hat, dealing with the problem is another thing.

That's exactly my opinion.

I'm not his biggest fan but I remember an article by Kevin Myres on this topic which I tought was very good. He likened the weekly scandals we seem to have with the 'two minute hate' in George Orwell's book 1984. He said that we seem to get worked up into a rage over a scandal and then once all our anger is vented we forget about it and get on with our lives.

Personally I think that the newspapers and opposition politicians are to blame for this a lot more than the government is. There is little reasoned debate on issues in this country and in its place we have a rush to find regular scandals.

My favourite example of this came when Fine Gael published the figures about two extra guards in dublin saying that this was a scandal and we should have more guards on the beat and fewer in national units. The following week someone was shot on the M50 and it was claimed that the lack of gardai in national units tackeling major crime was a scandal and their strength should be beefed up. Instead of a reasonable debate on policing policy we got two seperate scandals pointing in opposite directions.

flogen

John_C wrote:

My favourite example of this came when Fine Gael published the figures about two extra guards in dublin saying that this was a scandal and we should have more guards on the beat and fewer in national units. The following week someone was shot on the M50 and it was claimed that the lack of gardai in national units tackeling major crime was a scandal and their strength should be beefed up. Instead of a reasonable debate on policing policy we got two seperate scandals pointing in opposite directions.

Were they the recent figures that led to the Goebbells incident?
The problem there (if that's what you're referring to) is 1) FG weren't exactly fair with the figures they cited and 2) the actual issue was ignored in favour of the sideshow that followed (probably McDowell's plan anyway).
I suppose it's the same as what happened today, not to say that Joe Higgins made a good point, but the stories after it weren't about the issue, they were about the slagging match that followed.
The Irish voter is far too forgetful and far too forgiving; that's how Charles Haughey got back into power after two big controversies, it's why McDowell has gotten off the hook time and time again, and it's why people like Dessie Ellis is an elected councillor despite his... "colourful" past.

John_C

flogen wrote:

Were they the recent figures that led to the Goebbells incident?
The problem there (if that's what you're referring to) is 1) FG weren't exactly fair with the figures they cited and 2) the actual issue was ignored in favour of the sideshow that followed (probably McDowell's plan anyway).
I suppose it's the same as what happened today, not to say that Joe Higgins made a good point, but the stories after it weren't about the issue, they were about the slagging match that followed.

That's it exactly. Instead of a reasonable alternative policing policy from FG we got a manafactured scandal which is only headline grabbing because of the poor quality of political debate in the newspapers.

If something similar happened today it just goes to show the regularity of the pattern. If the government were better at their job they'd be able to tackel these false scandals head on instead of running for cover all the time. That would leave everyone free to look at the real problems in the country and work on ways to solve them.

lostexpectation

John_C wrote:

That's it exactly. Instead of a reasonable alternative policing policy from FG we got a manafactured scandal which is only headline grabbing because of the poor quality of political debate in the newspapers.

If something similar happened today it just goes to show the regularity of the pattern. If the government were better at their job they'd be able to tackel these false scandals head on instead of running for cover all the time. That would leave everyone free to look at the real problems in the country and work on ways to solve them.

so police cover, housing and child protection are false scandals?

flogen

lostexpectation wrote:

so police cover, housing and child protection are false scandals?

On the issue of police cover, FG purposely took advantage of the figures in order to score points (they used two points in the calender to say Gardai numbers weren't improving, but this time frame cut off just before new recruits graduated and just after older members retired); had they been more honest they could have landed a real (if not as sensational) blow.

John_C

lostexpectation wrote:

so police cover, housing and child protection are false scandals?

No, misrepresenting statistics about police cover generates a false scandal. A properly informed discussion on how best to deploy the gardai would be much more likely to lead to an improvement in the area.

It's pointless to describe "police cover" as a scandal because it's too glib a position to hold. Given the current level of manpower in the force should a higher proportion be deployed in local stations with fewer tackeling national issues or the reverse? What are the advantages and disadvantages of these options? What are the positions of the main opposition parties on this issue?

I keep a casual eye on political events in this country but I can't answer these questions because reactionary 'scandals' get in the way of proper discussion on the issue.

Jackie laughlin

Use of the collective "the politicians" should be banned. It gives the cynics, whiners and terminal pessimists - some of whom appear above - what they really want: permission to avoid thought, an excuse never to take sides and a way completely to avoid responsibility. Use your vote, decide which side you're on, choose a party, change your party, found a party. Above all else, praise and defend democracy because Sinn Fein and others are waiting for it to fail.

sceptre

Ah, PPARS, pisspoor planning, badly drafted requirements and complete lack of training (that last one didn't appear much in the papers either mind you if it appeared at all). And rusting election machines. How could I vote for idiots that brought about those two debacles costing hundreds of millions of euros at the drop of a whim and the flick of a pen? That's even without considering the fudging, lying and general incompetence, particularly in the health sector where people have also been told they can keep their temp contract positions and convert them to permanent ones if they can invent a reason for doing so. No, the two specific cases of rampant whim wastage are enough. Not that I expect some people to have longer-than-goldfish memories but I'm damned if I'm going to vote for parties that rule by poorly drafted press release.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

We don't care.

We're not affected by the problems. It's always someone else. How many people here ave been or know anyone who was sexually abused at the age of 12 or 14? How many people here have spent nights in casualty waiting for a doctor? Or lives are nice little lots. We have our alcohol, our flashy cars and our 2.4 kids, and that's all we give a **** about. And as long as the status quo remains, we'll line up at the polls to vote Bertie and the Soldiers of Ireland back in for another term.

It's not that we aren't outraged - we can express outrage when we want, look at the O Connell St riots of a few months back - it's just that we simply don't care.

lostexpectation

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

It's not that we aren't outraged - we can express outrage when we want, look at the O Connell St riots of a few months back - it's just that we simply don't care.

that was not US :rolleyes:

anyway I think the problem was everyone went for McDowell rather then the AG. McDowell is too big a lump.

Jackie laughlin

Sceptre,
What are you going to do?

bonkey

Heinrich wrote:

Can we borrow Christophe Blocher for a Dail rattle up?

Only if you agree to keep him.

Heinrich

bonkey wrote:

Only if you agree to keep him.

Swap you Harney for Dreifuss and Hanafin for Martine.:D

ronbyrne2005

Wait for the next opinion polls to see the impact of the "straw".im begining to more and more beleive in the statement that people get the governement they deserve.

sceptre

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Sceptre,
What are you going to do?

In simple terms, vote for the most viable alternative government that doesn't or isn't likely to include one particular party with whom I wouldn't share a bowl of soup. Ahern and Harney have managed to activate my penalty clause for "don't give a crap" wastage and seat-warming so while I'd perfer someone with cahunas big enough to argue with the 1970s economics graduates that are presumably running Finance these days, I'll settle for a reasonable probability of lesser stupidity. I don't expect a majority of my peers to do likewise.

DublinWriter

DublinWriter wrote:

the full might of the outside-broadcast unit of the Joe Duffy show was realised on Dail Eireann.

Missed that. Heard he and the contributors succeeded in turning a serious and disturbing matter into a hoot. Duffy shouldn't be allowed deal with any real topic, he struggles to keep up with Brush Shiels 'wit'.

Hard to be that outraged when things have never been better, in the economic sense.

Jackie laughlin

Conor,
I take it you were joking when you said that things are going well on the economics front. Don't be deceived by cranes. Read the "LittelFuse Closed" thread.

Sceptre,
You are being obscure or too clever for me. I take it you intend to vote either Labour or Fine Gael, presumably with transfers either way. I don't understand your refence to 70s economists and France.

sceptre

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Sceptre,
You are being obscure or too clever for me.

Perhaps the first, not intentionally, certainly not the second.

I take it you intend to vote either Labour or Fine Gael, presumably with transfers either way.

That's the current intention and is likely to be what I actually do.

I don't understand your refence to 70s economists and France.

Finance, not France, heh. I'm not a fan of monetarist economic policy based on either quantity of money or value of money. Most 1970s economics graduates are, especially the ones who either never bothered working out macroeconomic policy from first principles or never read anything new after they graduated. Mid-1970s graduates are roughly the right age to be the larger part of the group running our Dept of Finance round about now, policy decisions in the past half-decade-odd would tend to indicate that this suspicion is correct.

lostexpectation

Deleted User wrote:

Hard to be that outraged when things have never been better, in the economic sense.

that you had to add the second part of the sentence = mega :rolleyes: