Landlord lets himself into our house

lomb

as has been stated the tenant has the right to peaceful enjoyment. just wondering though, why is it in residential lets the landlord is responsible for maintainance whereas in commercial even for short lets the tenant is responsible for maintaince, payment of service charges etc.
is it a tradition or is it something in law?

Afuera

It's the law. The oasis website gives a general overview of the right and obligations of a landlord according to the Landlord and Tenants Acts 1967 – 1994 and the Residential Tenancies Act 2004.
http://www.oasis.gov.ie/housing/renting_a_flat_or_house/landlords_rights_and_obligations.html

TempestSabre

Afuera wrote:

I think that this only applies to the UK.

In Ireland, I have been led to believe that provided you do not cause damage to the property, then alterations like this are permissible. If you paint a room or change a lock, so long as you return it to it's original state (or no worse than normal wear and tear) when you leave, then you're within your rights.

Have you got any information that says otherwise on this?

First I've heard of it. I don't see how it would be workable.

Afuera

TempestSabre wrote:

First I've heard of it. I don't see how it would be workable.

What's not workable about it? If the landlord has a deposit and is able to inspect the premises when the tenants move out then where's the problem?

TempestSabre

Changing locks and decorating is not reversible. You can redo it, but thats not the same thing. How do you know that a tenant is qualified and compentent to do such work. How do you know what is covered up by such work? What happens when it goes wrong? Anywhere I've ever been I've never heard of a tenant being able to do this without express permission of the landlord. One of my friends had a house rented and they changed the locks without his permission, and he got them changed back, or at least got copies of the keys. I have no idea what the exact legal situation is though. Some clarification is needed. Another friend got a reduction in rent if he redecorated the flat he was renting. But he got permission first.

Afuera

TempestSabre wrote:

Changing locks and decorating is not reversible. You can redo it, but thats not the same thing. How do you know that a tenant is qualified and compentent to do such work. How do you know what is covered up by such work? What happens when it goes wrong? Anywhere I've ever been I've never heard of a tenant being able to do this without express permission of the landlord. One of my friends had a house rented and they changed the locks without his permission, and he got them changed back, or at least got copies of the keys. I have no idea what the exact legal situation is though. Some clarification is needed. Another friend got a reduction in rent if he redecorated the flat he was renting. But he got permission first.

I don't think that the law specifies that a tenant needs to get any permission from the landlord to make those kinds of changes. It's very likely that a tenants lease would specify that they have to consult the landlord before making changes such as those but if it's not in the agreement then it would be at the discression of the tenant.

Of course, it goes without saying, if they messed the place up and were unable to return it to it's orignal state when leaving, the landlord could use their deposit to repair things. And they might possibly need to take them to court if the damages were serious enough. Those actions are covered by law since the tenant is required to keep the property in good order.

I know of some people renting who feel happier changing the locks when they first move in. How do they know that previous tenants don't have copies of the old keys? It's totally reversable and they replace the old lock back when they leave. If the landlord wants to come around or fix something he has to get permission off of them which he must do by law anyway!

FillSpectre

AFAIK you cannot make a single change to a property without permission. Changing the locks without providing a key to the landlord would be seen as an agressive act IMHO.

TempestSabre

Afuera wrote:

....Of course, it goes without saying, if they messed the place up and were unable to return it to it's orignal state when leaving, the landlord could use their deposit to repair things. And they might possibly need to take them to court if the damages were serious enough. Those actions are covered by law since the tenant is required to keep the property in good order...

Why run the risk of that kinda grief?

Afuera

FillSpectre wrote:

AFAIK you cannot make a single change to a property without permission. Changing the locks without providing a key to the landlord would be seen as an agressive act IMHO.

Can you show me where you got this information from please? I'm interested to know where the law actually stands on this matter.

TempestSabre

Afuera wrote:

I don't think that the law specifies that a tenant needs to get any permission from the landlord to make those kinds of changes. It's very likely that a tenants lease would specify that they have to consult the landlord before making changes such as those but if it's not in the agreement then it would be at the discression of the tenant....

As you say its probably covered by the tenants lease. But you can imagine if not, someone could paint the house black and red, and move interior walls around otherwise.

Afuera

TempestSabre wrote:

Why run the risk of that kinda grief?

For painting and decorating it's probably not worth the risk. But to protect someone's privacy there's not very much risk at all. Changing a lock will only cost about EUR 50, and is very easy to change back.

The OP of this thread posted about a landlord walking into the house without any prior warning. If they had locked the landlord out, forcing him to abide by the law and gaining their permission to enter, then the situation would never have happened.

Afuera

TempestSabre wrote:

As you say its probably covered by the tenants lease. But you can imagine if not, someone could paint the house black and red, and move interior walls around otherwise.

I think they could paint it whatever colour they liked, yes. But as already mentioned they'd be obliged to return it to it's original state when they terminate the tenancy.

They'd need planning permission though to move walls (even if they're only interior). That would rule them out of doing something as drastic as that.

TempestSabre

I assume you'd have to change at least two locks. Your suggesting the tenants pays for this and then puts the lock back without damaging anything? I can see where you are coming from, but I've never heard of someone doing this. Have you found it to be common practise?

Why would you need planning permission to move stud walls?

FillSpectre

Afuera wrote:

Can you show me where you got this information from please? I'm interested to know where the law actually stands on this matter.

Actually I think you would need to show where anybody has the right to alter property not belonging to them. I am not saying there is a law but there would need to be something to say you could alter the property would be what I would say. As property is furnished here, in general. I very much doubt there is the right to redecorate property.

Afuera

TempestSabre wrote:

I assume you'd have to change at least two locks. Your suggesting the tenants pays for this and then puts the lock back without damaging anything? I can see where you are coming from, but I've never heard of someone doing this. Have you found it to be common practise?

Why would you need planning permission to move stud walls?

I haven't found it to be that common since most renters in Ireland look at it as being a very short term thing.

One case where a tenant went to the trouble of doing this was due to them hearing about the previous tenants robbing all of the furniture. Not wanting to risk the chance that the previous tenants could still access the property and rather than having to hassle the landlord about it they changed the locks on their own.

Planning permission is really up to local authorities. The general advise before making any changes to a building is to first see if planning application is required as it's possible that the use of the building may be changed if walls are being moved or added.

hmmm

The most recent legislation requires permission from the landlord specifically when changing locks (contradicting myself).

Afuera

FillSpectre wrote:

Actually I think you would need to show where anybody has the right to alter property not belonging to them. I am not saying there is a law but there would need to be something to say you could alter the property would be what I would say. As property is furnished here, in general. I very much doubt there is the right to redecorate property.

So you don't think that a tenant is allowed to hang their own pictures or change a lampshade without permission from the landlord? They are not altering the property if it is returned to it's original state when they leave.

Afuera

hmmm wrote:

The most recent legislation requires permission from the landlord specifically when changing locks (contradicting myself).

Ok that would bring it in line with UK law then. Can you provide a link to the legislation that we have in Ireland covering this?

[edit] It's ok hmmm, I had a browse through the Residencial Tenancies Act 2004 and found the part where they clarified to "alter or improve" in relation to a dwelling to include "a locking system on a door giving entry to the dwelling".

FillSpectre

Afuera wrote:

So you don't think that a tenant is allowed to hang their own pictures or change a lampshade without permission from the landlord? They are not altering the property if it is returned to it's original state when they leave.

If any damage is done hanging the picture no and removal of the landlord's property maybe fine if stored correctly. No need to be smart about what I said. Painting a property is a trade and most people can't do it. I have never seen or heard a friend repaint a place when they left a place. Decoration is a change beyond normal wear and tear.

As I said you need to prove where a tenant HAS the right to change property not belong to them,not me to prove you can't. Residental and business premises are different.

Afuera

FillSpectre wrote:

As I said you need to prove where a tenant HAS the right to change property not belong to them,not me to prove you can't.

The Residential Tenancies Act 2004 states that a landlord can't unreasonably withhold permission for the tenant to repair, paint or decorate.

FillSpectre

Afuera wrote:

The Residential Tenancies Act 2004 states that a landlord can't unreasonably withhold permission for the tenant to repair, paint or decorate.

Cool which part and can you quote, I'll gladly stand corrected. "Unreasonably" still doesn't give you the right and requires permission. That sounds like they can say sure you can paint but I choose the colour etc...

Afuera

FillSpectre wrote:

Cool which part and can you quote, I'll gladly stand corrected. "Unreasonably" still doesn't give you the right and requires permission. That sounds like they can say sure you can paint but I choose the colour etc...

It looks like this Act two years ago clarifies a lot of the previous ambiguities.

The part you're looking for FillSpectre is in the Residential Tenancies Act 2004: Point 2 Section 16 (l)(i).

FillSpectre

Afuera wrote:

It looks like this Act two years ago clarifies a lot of the previous ambiguities.

The part you're looking for FillSpectre is in the Residential Tenancies Act 2004: Point 2 Section 16 (l)(i).

You do realise what I said was completely right you can't make any changes without permission. You don't have the right to decorate. A landlord decides what happens to their property. You are allowed decorate with permission and said permission can't be with held "unreasonably".

TempestSabre

Residential Tenancies Act 2004 (A Quick Guide)
http://www.prtb.ie/downloads.htm

Tenancy Obligations (Part 2)
Tenants must:

obligations,
- not alter, improve, assign, sub-let or change the use of the
dwelling without written consent from the landlord.

I haven't looked at it, but the full act is here.
http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/acts/2004/a2704.pdf

Afuera

FillSpectre wrote:

You do realise what I said was completely right you can't make any changes without permission. You don't have the right to decorate. A landlord decides what happens to their property. You are allowed decorate with permission and said permission can't be with held "unreasonably".

What do you want, a medal? When I asked you about your opinion you were unable to provide anything to backup your thinking. It was thanks to Hmmm that I was able to locate all the specific changes that were passed only two years ago.

No wonder nobody is willing to rent long term in Ireland with legislation like this.

TempestSabre

hmmm wrote:

....
When tenants move into a house, if they wanted to they are perfectly within their rights to change the locks.

Afuera wrote:

...In Ireland, I have been led to believe that provided you do not cause damage to the property, then alterations like this are permissible. If you paint a room or change a lock, so long as you return it to it's original state (or no worse than normal wear and tear) when you leave, then you're within your rights...

In fairness everyone was just expressing an opinion of they thought was the law. None of knew for sure. Its now been clarified. Which is important.

TempestSabre

Afuera wrote:

...No wonder nobody is willing to rent long term in Ireland with legislation like this...

There are bad landlords AND bad tenants.

Theres a lot of DIYer's who have the best intentions in the world, but are hopeless, and might not have the resources to repair/restore what they done. Personally I think it would be rare tenant who would restore any alterations. Locks maybe, decoration unlikely.

Afuera

TempestSabre wrote:

Residential Tenancies Act 2004 (A Quick Guide)
http://www.prtb.ie/downloads.htm

I haven't looked at it, but the full act is here.
http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/acts/2004/a2704.pdf

Thanks for the link. I just had a cursory glance at it myself for the important details.

I'm still left wondering if a tenant changed their locks without the landlords permission and then landlord tried to access the premises without the tenants permission. Who is in the greater wrong?

TempestSabre

They are both wrong. But if that situation comes to pass both parties really don't know what they are doing. As a landlord I wouldn't want that tenant. As a tenant I wouldn't want that landlord.

hmmm

Going back to the original question, and note I am not a lawyer, but I personally would feel comfortable with the following:
- landlord has a duty to ensure that the premises is in a fit & proper state, has to ensure that e.g. gas appliances are operating correctly. In those situations, landlord will need access but has to clear it with tenants (me) in advance. And not just notifying, I would have to give him permission.
- landlord has right of entry in an emergency. A fire maybe, or a strong smell of gas. Not because he thinks a goldfish may have been introduced.
- if I've signed a lease with conditions that I didn't think were unenforceable I would allow access in those circumstances. Any condition that breached the above would be dodgy, but e.g. I may be required to allow potential purchasers access if notice is given
- finally, if the landlord did not follow the above I would refuse him access. Up to and including calling the guards. Sure you'll probably want to give in your notice at that point, but that's his problem.