Radio frequency

murrayj

shortys94 wrote:

Is it possible to ask eircom to do a site survey to tell whether or not I can get the FWA, without going ahead with an order if they say I can get the service?

I can rephrase

There should be no need to do a site survey. If your wireless phone service is working, then the wireless signal for Broadband will work ok also. The only problem might be if there were too many others already connected - but this is very unlikely, and would be checked centrally on a planning tool, rather than by a site survey. You should just put in an order for the Broadband - I dont see any reason why it wont work.

shortys94

Yea alright, but I will have to sell satelitte for a good amount as 700 is alot of money, do you have any idea what the digiweb equipment could go for?

I was trying to contact Knock airport by email asking them what bb service they are using, but I think they may be now using the newly installed bb as the exchange in knock has supposedly been enabled

murrayj

shortys94 wrote:

Yea alright, but I will have to sell satelitte for a good amount as 700 is alot of money, do you have any idea what the digiweb equipment could go for?

I was trying to contact Knock airport by email asking them what bb service they are using, but I think they may be now using the newly installed bb as the exchange in knock has supposedly been enabled

Big companies like Airports have had direct fibre-optic connections to eircom's network for years. They don't even have to wait for exchanges to be "enabled". The "enabling" just refers to installing the DSL technology that allows Broadband to be piped out over copper cables to residential users and small businesses.

You could probably shift the satellite gear on e-bay?

oscarBravo

Knock Airport use WestNet broadband.

murrayj

oscarBravo wrote:

Knock Airport use WestNet broadband.

Perhaps... but I doubt they are running the air-traffic control, airline reservation systems, phone systems etc on a contended wireless broadband link from WestNet. I'll bet they have a fibre coming in from eircom with uncontended Broadband that they depend on for all the heavyweight stuff!.

Have you proof? Knock airport probably had the eircom Broadband link long before anyone ever heard of WestNet...and it will probably be there long after Westnet have bitten the dust. It's great to see a bit of community effort going into these group broadband schemes, but in my view most of them don't have a viable business model. They remind me of the old communal TV systems, if anyone is old enough to remember them. Don't fall for all the government nonsense about supporting community broadband schemes - its all a sham.

oscarBravo

murrayj wrote:

Perhaps... but I doubt they are running the air-traffic control...

ATC doesn't need an uncontended leased line - at least not at the Knock Airport level.

murrayj wrote:

...airline reservation systems...

The airlines make their own arrangements, usually using PSTN or ISDN lines. At least one of them will probably become a WestNet customer shortly.

murrayj wrote:

...phone systems...

The phone systems use ISDN and PSTN lines. What makes you think they need Eircom fibre for phone lines?

murrayj wrote:

...on a contended wireless broadband link from WestNet. I'll bet they have a fibre coming in from eircom with uncontended Broadband that they depend on for all the heavyweight stuff!.

You'll bet, will you? How much do you want to bet? I'll take that wager.

murrayj wrote:

Have you proof?

Depends what you call proof. I can meet you at the airport and show you the equipment. I can introduce you to the Airport technical manager.

Or, you could just call me a liar.

murrayj wrote:

Knock airport probably had the eircom Broadband link long before anyone ever heard of WestNet...and it will probably be there long after Westnet have bitten the dust.

Eircom installed a leased line to the airport - not sure of the capacity - to run their own pricey hotspot jobbie. The airport were not given access to it.

murrayj wrote:

It's great to see a bit of community effort going into these group broadband schemes, but in my view most of them don't have a viable business model.

Researched them extensively, have you?

murrayj wrote:

They remind me of the old communal TV systems, if anyone is old enough to remember them.

Communal TV systems such as Mayo Community TV, which still has thousands of subscribers (including me)?

shortys94

How much would I get for the digiweb gear if I sold it?

shortys94

anyone have any idea ^^

Sponge Bob

feck all, search for Gilat on Ebay .

murrayj

oscarBravo wrote:

ATC doesn't need an uncontended leased line - at least not at the Knock Airport level. The airlines make their own arrangements, usually using PSTN or ISDN lines. At least one of them will probably become a WestNet customer shortly. The phone systems use ISDN and PSTN lines. What makes you think they need Eircom fibre for phone lines? You'll bet, will you? How much do you want to bet? I'll take that wager. Depends what you call proof. I can meet you at the airport and show you the equipment. I can introduce you to the Airport technical manager.

Or, you could just call me a liar. Eircom installed a leased line to the airport - not sure of the capacity - to run their own pricey hotspot jobbie. The airport were not given access to it. Researched them extensively, have you? Communal TV systems such as Mayo Community TV, which still has thousands of subscribers (including me)?

I have never been in Knock Airport, but I am sure that when you add all the payphones, car-rental kiosks, reservation desks, shops etc, together, there must be at least 100 phone "lines" alone there. Thats before you count all the Broadband leased lines for computers, ATM machines, etc. etc. If memory serves me right there is also a Business Park next door. Companies that have more than about 10 phone lines get Primary Rate ISDN which is effectively 2MBit/s uncontended Symmetric Broadband dedicated to Voice channels. Business parks and airports where there are multiple Broadband links are multiplexed and fed by high capacity transmission direct from eircom's fibre backbone. It's been done this way for years... long before DSL Broadband, Wireless or WestNet.

Regarding the business case for community wireless systems...I have studied it...and I observe that many have already gone out of business...and many others have deplorable quality and customer-care issues. I am sick of reading the sob stories on this Board from customers of IBB, Digiweb, Last-Mile-Wireless etc. etc. The only thing that seems to be propping these up is some silly Govt grants from the GBS. The Govt are finally waking to realising these schemes are a disaster, and that they should have invested the money in supporting DSL or cable based infrastructure like every other country. The Green Party challenged the issue recently in the Oireachtas and the whole sham unravelled.

The reason this issue matters to me is that the Dept of Education forced schools to use all these amateur wireless systems instead of going with eircom or other reputable Broadband providers. My school has been deprived of Broadband, as have numerous colleagues in other schools...not because eircom isn't available...but because we are not allowed use them!

Regarding the Community (Pirate?) TV... I didn't realise there were any still working. I understood most of them were put out of operation because they weren't paying Performing Rights on the content they were re-broadcasting. In any case most people are moving to Satellite in order to Digital or HD. I doubt that Mayo Commmunity TV has figured how to do Digital or HD?

I don't want to seem like anti-community or anything, but when it comes to serious things like utility networks and telecommunications, I think it is better to leave it to the professionals.

By the way, what wireless spectrum are WestNet using? I can't seem to find a reference to their licence on ComReg's site?

murrayj

shortys94 wrote:

anyone have any idea ^^

Apologies shortys94 for hijacking your thread with some off-topic stuff there....but there was some stuff that couldn't go unchallenged.

Regarding your satellite kit, you might even be able to sell it outside Ireland. Those satellites are used right across Europe. Digiweb are just a re-seller. You might find a bigger market in somewhere like UK?? I haven't a clue how much this stuff goes for second-hand.

lucernarian

murrayj wrote:

I don't want to seem like anti-community or anything, but when it comes to serious things like utility networks and telecommunications, I think it is better to leave it to the professionals.

Professionals are the people who knowingly continue to install pairgains in brand new housing estates, rendering the line useless for DSL.

Professionals are the people who install fibre-fed remote exchanges only not to bother DSL enabling them.

Professionals are the people who give all sorts of ****e as an excuse when a line fails because it's 50 years old and all the junction boxes to the exchange are corroded.

Professionals are the people who begrudge their customers a FWA broadband connection and only do it when put under pressure or in some rural areas.

Professionals are the people who went on the airwaves and claim that they are committed to Ireland's communications infrastructure while the closest thing a customer will come to fibre is at their sub exchange/uber-pairgain.

Professionals are another company who thinks that they can come up with basically random numbers and bill them with it. And then refuse any admission of guilt.

Sorry, but I think you're talking through your ass. (No reflection on your good self- not meant as an insult)

Sponge Bob

murrayj wrote:

Regarding the business case for community wireless systems...I have studied it...and I observe that many have already gone out of business...and many others have deplorable quality and customer-care issues. I am sick of reading the sob stories on this Board from customers of IBB, Digiweb, Last-Mile-Wireless etc. etc. The only thing that seems to be propping these up is some silly Govt grants from the GBS. The Govt are finally waking to realising these schemes are a disaster, and that they should have invested the money in supporting DSL or cable based infrastructure like every other country. The Green Party challenged the issue recently in the Oireachtas and the whole sham unravelled.

Hmmm sound like eircom canteen speak there

The reason this issue matters to me is that the Dept of Education forced schools to use all these amateur wireless systems instead of going with eircom or other reputable Broadband providers.

what reputable BB providers ? Eircom only cover about 20% of the country by area , reputable provider that they are in your eyes.

My school has been deprived of Broadband, as have numerous colleagues in other schools...not because eircom isn't available...but because we are not allowed use them!

Your school?? Do you own it or do you just go there?????

I don't want to seem like anti-community or anything, but when it comes to serious things like utility networks and telecommunications, I think it is better to leave it to the professionals.

and if you live in rural areas they leave it to the birds. TWEET TWEET

What a silly rant that was, had you asked nicely I would have told you how to get off your beloved satellite connection in 'your ' school but now I care less

oscarBravo

murrayj wrote:

I have never been in Knock Airport...

I have. Many, many times. Most recently, while installing wireless broadband to replace the POS satellite "broadband" system they were lumbered with.

murrayj wrote:

...but I am sure that when you add all the payphones, car-rental kiosks, reservation desks, shops etc, together, there must be at least 100 phone "lines" alone there.

What you're "sure" about and what's actually happening in the real world don't always coincide.

murrayj wrote:

If memory serves me right there is also a Business Park next door.

Yes, there is. Guess who's providing broadband to most of those businesses?

murrayj wrote:

Companies that have more than about 10 phone lines get Primary Rate ISDN which is effectively 2MBit/s uncontended Symmetric Broadband dedicated to Voice channels. Business parks and airports where there are multiple Broadband links are multiplexed and fed by high capacity transmission direct from eircom's fibre backbone. It's been done this way for years... long before DSL Broadband, Wireless or WestNet.

You know what: I'm directly challenging you, here and now. Prove that there is fibre broadband available to the Airport and the companies in the business park. Ring the company that manages the Airport's IT systems - I'll PM you the name, and the name of a contact person - and ask them why they felt the need to get wireless broadband to replace their alleged Eircom fibre leased line.

Or apologise for calling me a liar, which, to all intents and purposes, you have done.

murrayj wrote:

Regarding the business case for community wireless systems...I have studied it...and I observe that many have already gone out of business...and many others have deplorable quality and customer-care issues. I am sick of reading the sob stories on this Board from customers of IBB, Digiweb, Last-Mile-Wireless etc. etc. The only thing that seems to be propping these up is some silly Govt grants from the GBS.

Having studied the situation in such depth, you'll be aware of just how many of those grants have been paid out, no doubt. You'll also be aware of the requirement to demonstrate a viable business model, with cashflow projections, before grants are approved. Further, you'll be familiar with the independent third-party audit to demonstrate the viability of each scheme, before the grants are actually paid out.

Seeing as you're the expert and all.

murrayj wrote:

The Govt are finally waking to realising these schemes are a disaster, and that they should have invested the money in supporting DSL or cable based infrastructure like every other country.

Yup, that's exactly what this country needs - a further entrenched monopoly, government supported, with no guarantees whatsoever as to coverage levels.

murrayj wrote:

The reason this issue matters to me is that the Dept of Education forced schools to use all these amateur wireless systems instead of going with eircom or other reputable Broadband providers. My school has been deprived of Broadband, as have numerous colleagues in other schools...not because eircom isn't available...but because we are not allowed use them!

I call bull****. Most schools were lumbered with satellite systems, because that "professional" company, eircom, don't have a fraction of the DSL coverage they claim to have.

murrayj wrote:

Regarding the Community (Pirate?) TV... I didn't realise there were any still working. I understood most of them were put out of operation because they weren't paying Performing Rights on the content they were re-broadcasting.

I guess that's another case of you working on what you believe to be the case, rather than what's actually going on. Some - not all - community TV operators are fully licenced and above board.

murrayj wrote:

In any case most people are moving to Satellite in order to Digital or HD. I doubt that Mayo Commmunity TV has figured how to do Digital or HD?

I can't speak for them, but I don't think they're bothered.

murrayj wrote:

I don't want to seem like anti-community or anything, but when it comes to serious things like utility networks and telecommunications, I think it is better to leave it to the professionals.

Unfortunately, you don't seem interested in distinguishing between a community operation and a professional wireless operator.

murrayj wrote:

By the way, what wireless spectrum are WestNet using? I can't seem to find a reference to their licence on ComReg's site?

Licence-exempt, for the most part. We're still working out how to herd people into the neat 15km circles ComReg seem to believe rural people should live in to qualify for licenced wireless broadband.

murrayj

oscarBravo wrote:

Licence-exempt, for the most part. We're still working out how to herd people into the neat 15km circles ComReg seem to believe rural people should live in to qualify for licenced wireless broadband.

I hope the US President or any such dignatory never visits Knock Airport. If you are using the unlicensed band, the first thing the US authorities do is to jam it, as it is also used to trigger explosive devices. It will be interesting to see all the comm's systems in Knock airport sitting down because their unlicensed band is jammed! Do the authorities in Knock airport realise their Broadband is carried over a band that is shared with everything from CCTV systems, walkie-talkies, etc? There is absolutely no control over the available bandwidth in this band. It's pot luck. You might be getting away with it now, but come to Dublin and see what its like for customers of IBB using the unlicensed band also. Wait until all the sheep in Mayo have Wi-Fi tracking collars on them in a few years time!

Blaster99

oscarBravo wrote:

Having studied the situation in such depth, you'll be aware of just how many of those grants have been paid out, no doubt. You'll also be aware of the requirement to demonstrate a viable business model, with cashflow projections, before grants are approved. Further, you'll be familiar with the independent third-party audit to demonstrate the viability of each scheme, before the grants are actually paid out.

It should be pointed out that he said that the only reason some of the wireless providers are viable is because they've received GBS funding, he wasn't saying that no funding had been given out. I would incidentally agree that the GBS are a complete waste of tax money and it looks like the message is spreading. Whether wireless operators are viable or not, I don't know. It doesn't appear to be a technology that scales very well, but in rural areas it probably works quite well.

oscarBravo wrote:

Yup, that's exactly what this country needs - a further entrenched monopoly, government supported, with no guarantees whatsoever as to coverage levels.

It is of course possible to hand over money in return for an SLA. Whether it's possible in Ireland with the people in charge of broadband policy and regulation is another story.

oscarBravo

murrayj wrote:

Do the authorities in Knock airport realise their Broadband is carried over a band that is shared with everything from CCTV systems, walkie-talkies, etc?

What difference does it make? They've got Eircom fibre, right? Oh wait, you didn't address that part of my post, or any other part other than the one where you thought you could get in a cheap shot.

Answer the rest of my post, please. I'm still waiting for the apology.

murrayj wrote:

There is absolutely no control over the available bandwidth in this band. It's pot luck.

It's called engineering and radio planning. It's what professional wireless operators do.

murrayj wrote:

You might be getting away with it now, but come to Dublin and see what its like for customers of IBB using the unlicensed band also.

If you do ever decide to visit this part of the world, you may notice a subtle difference in population density.

oscarBravo

Blaster99 wrote:

It should be pointed out that he said that the only reason some of the wireless providers are viable is because they've received GBS funding, he wasn't saying that no funding had been given out.

And I was pointing out that, seeing as how only a small percentage of the promised funding has been paid out, it's disingenuous to suggest that wireless operators are living on it.

Blaster99 wrote:

I would incidentally agree that the GBS are a complete waste of tax money and it looks like the message is spreading. Whether wireless operators are viable or not, I don't know. It doesn't appear to be a technology that scales very well, but in rural areas it probably works quite well.

...which are precisely the areas GBS are targetted at.

Blaster99 wrote:

It is of course possible to hand over money in return for an SLA. Whether it's possible in Ireland with the people in charge of broadband policy and regulation is another story.

More to the point, it's the only story.

murrayj

oscarBravo wrote:

What difference does it make? They've got Eircom fibre, right? Oh wait, you didn't address that part of my post, or any other part other than the one where you thought you could get in a cheap shot.

Answer the rest of my post, please. I'm still waiting for the apology. It's called engineering and radio planning. It's what professional wireless operators do. If you do ever decide to visit this part of the world, you may notice a subtle difference in population density.

I agree...it probably doesn't matter because they are likely using eircom for the important stuff...which is where I started.

By the way, you are being selective in your response. You haven't explained how you prevent Knock Airport from becoming the laughing stock of the World when the US president visits and all the comm's systems are knocked out?

Regarding the engineering and radio planning....explain to how you deal with some guy in between your base-station and your customer setting up another transmitter...on the same unlicensed band. This will have a stronger signal which your customer will now detect. Let's say he fills the full bandwidth with Bit-Torrent or something. How does your radio-planning and engineering cope? Do you immediately install another antenna between the new guy and your customer?

oscarBravo

murrayj wrote:

I agree...it probably doesn't matter because they are likely using eircom for the important stuff...which is where I started.

You started with a bunch of wild-ass speculation, unsupported by any understanding whatsoever of the actual issues involved. You invented an hypothetical ATC system that requires fibre bandwidth, while admitting that you've never been in the airport. I've been in the control tower. You picked a number out of your ass for the number of phones there "must" be there, and arbitrarily decided that they're not using PSTN for any of them.

Go away, do some research, and answer my questions.

murrayj wrote:

By the way, you are being selective in your response. You haven't explained how you prevent Knock Airport from becoming the laughing stock of the World when the US president visits and all the comm's systems are knocked out?

I'll tell you what: when you're talking to the airport's IT services company, why don't you tell them about this incredibly likely threat to the survival of their business. Don't forget to mention the WiFi sheep as well, they'll need to know about them.

I'm sure they'll be running back to their Eircom fibre in no time.

murrayj wrote:

Regarding the engineering and radio planning....explain to how you deal with some guy in between your base-station and your customer setting up another transmitter...on the same unlicensed band. This will have a stronger signal which your customer will now detect. Let's say he fills the full bandwidth with Bit-Torrent or something. How does your radio-planning and engineering cope? Do you immediately install another antenna between the new guy and your customer?

I'll probably just suggest that they all get Eircom fibre. It's just lying around in the ditches, doncha know.

Blaster99

murrayj wrote:

Regarding the engineering and radio planning....explain to how you deal with some guy in between your base-station and your customer setting up another transmitter...on the same unlicensed band. This will have a stronger signal which your customer will now detect. Let's say he fills the full bandwidth with Bit-Torrent or something. How does your radio-planning and engineering cope? Do you immediately install another antenna between the new guy and your customer?

I think you'll find in a serious case that neither is interested in interference so they'll pick different channels. The likelihood of this happening in a rural setting is very small, unlike an urban environment. You can also use 5.7GHz which is not very common in retail wireless kit. It has the added benefit of allowing higher power levels than 2.4Ghz.

There's interference on licensed 3.5Ghz too from what I understand, because of misuse of the frequency space or whatever.

Sponge Bob

In most of rural Ireland by area all of the relevant frequencies (save the 802.11 2.4Ghz band) are totally unused all of the time.

The contention and interference hypothecation is hypothecation and is with the birds, TWEET TWEET !

Eircom promised me fibre to my house, no bother they said

JohnnieM

Yeah the eircom FWA is pretty good.. bit on the dear side though... Just so you all know Eircom currentlt have wi max in testing and I think they are planning rollout in late this year early next year.. the speeds are fantastic.. this will be replacing their fwa service... maybe hold out till then...

murrayj

Blaster99 wrote:

I think you'll find in a serious case that neither is interested in interference so they'll pick different channels. The likelihood of this happening in a rural setting is very small, unlike an urban environment. You can also use 5.7GHz which is not very common in retail wireless kit. It has the added benefit of allowing higher power levels than 2.4Ghz.

There's interference on licensed 3.5Ghz too from what I understand, because of misuse of the frequency space or whatever.

Agree that the likelihood of interference in a truly "rural" environment is small. However, near an International Airport with a Business park beside it....there will be lots of interference. In any case you dont want to mess around with telecomm's in an airport. It's the total lack of control over available bandwidth and contention using unlicensed spectrum that is absolutely unacceptable in the aviation industry. This is akin to expecting the pilots to use CB radios. While the 5.7GHz band is less used, it would certainly be the choice of anyone else wanting to set up ad-hoc Broadband links around the airport. Let's say for example one of the businesses uses 5.7GHz to provide a short-haul link for disk mirroring between two servers on the campus? For back-up purposes the uncertainty of unlicensed bandwidth would not be an issue, but for mission-critical systems like ATC, airline reservation systems etc, this uncertainty is unacceptable.

Regarding interference on licensed spectrum....ComReg can and do prosecute anyone caught transmitting on frequencies without a license. Operators who use licensed spectrum have a far greater degree of control over this.

shortys94

JohnnieM wrote:

Yeah the eircom FWA is pretty good.. bit on the dear side though... Just so you all know Eircom currentlt have wi max in testing and I think they are planning rollout in late this year early next year.. the speeds are fantastic.. this will be replacing their fwa service... maybe hold out till then...

Do you have any more information on this?

Blaster99

Eircom tests a lot of stuff. It doesn't mean that it will go anywhere. They were doing FTTC tests last year, for instance. Nothing has been heard about it since and that's a technology that's a lot more relevant to eircom than WiMax I would have thought. But perhaps with lots of Meteor masts to play with, they have other ideas.

Sponge Bob

And 2.3Ghz spectrum they better use or lose too

oscarBravo

Shyeah, that's gonna happen.

Ronan|Raven

murrayj wrote:

I have never been in Knock Airport,

Then I sugest you stop rabbiting on about issues up there you clearly dont know. Having worked in the business park up there for a company and knowing plenty of the other companies up there, If it wasnt for companies like westnet things would be pretty bleak. When the company I used to work for attempted to get any eircom wireless broadband in even though they were a large company eircom seemed about as interested as a cat about to have a wash.

dub45

murrayj wrote:

By the way, you are being selective in your response. You haven't explained how you prevent Knock Airport from becoming the laughing stock of the World when the US president visits and all the comm's systems are knocked out?

........

Anyone any information on the likely dates?