Pedigree dogs.... whats the point

Jules

i have been working in practice for two years now and to say straight, why do breeders keep breeding dogs who have genetic faults, ie english bulldog, yeah i know that brachycephalic breeds will always have issues but it was just a question i wanted to ask...... why breed animals that have the potential to die at and early age or not gonna have a good quailty of life due to life long medication and tests, i know ill prolly get a public lashing for this but i have had first hand experience with this problem and its heart breaking.... and also docking tails.... one simple question, WHY????

grimloch

Because there's a market for them.

Arcadian

Perhaps that's a question better posed on a board that has good breeders on it? At least that way you may get some informed answers about health issues.

Jules

ok granted... but is it not just another act of being cruel, breeding for profit, personally i would never buy a dog, yeah ok going to a shelter or pound and payin for it there, but isnt there already enough unwanted dogs with out breeding ones that are genetically defective!!!!! come on ppl i thought we loved animals!!!!! or are they just another way to make a euro or two..... its just not right.... and i understand the health issues just want to get ordinary peoples opinion on the subject

doctor evil

Fashion, some have a use ie good sheep dog.

Jules

again point taken with the working dogs, but again any animal can be trained i guess... but again fahion should not be a reason for bad breeding in animals!!!!!!

shinners007

people breed dogs cos they want to. they may love it or simply do it as a profession to make money. some dogs tails are docked as it sometimes looks nicer. whats the big issue here, it aint gona stop just cos some people find it heart breaking now is it.

if people want to rescue a dog great its their decision the same applys for those who buy from a breeder simple.

as for dogs being a fashion of course they are this doesnt mean an owner loves the dog any less.

allnight_2002

jules80 wrote:

again point taken with the working dogs, but again any animal can be trained i guess... but again fashion should not be a reason for bad breeding in animals!!!!!!

NO not very dog is suitable for certain jobs. And all the training in the world will not make up for natural instinct. Which is breed in to certain breeds over years.
Tails are docked on allot of working dogs epically hunting dogs. If they had long tails they would get caught up in thorns and twigs going in to tick cover.

padi89

allnight_2002 wrote:

Tails are docked on allot of working dogs epically hunting dogs. If they had long tails they would get caught up in thorns and twigs going in to tick cover.

Really? I honestly never knew that.I would have assumed that their ears are far more likely to get caught up in thorns and twigs going through thick cover as the head is used to push through.I would assume that once they push their heads through it leaves a gap for their body and especially the tail to follow.Hounds for example have their tails and my mates spaniels(for hunting).
Dont take that the wrong way i just honestly didnt know that.

EGAR

The practise of tail docking originates in the middle ages. It has nothing to do with injuries to the tail but was meant to distinguish a peasant's dog from a dog owned by the gentry. Tail docking deprives a dog of a bodypart which is vital in canine communication for example. Most European countries have outlawed the practise of tail docking as cruel and barbaric. Dogs with intact tails have hunted for centuries without any injuries to their tails .

Sarah

eiretamicha

EGAR wrote:

The practise of tail docking originates in the middle ages. It has nothing to do with injuries to the tail but was meant to distinguish a peasant's dog from a dog owned by the gentry. Tail docking deprives a dog of a bodypart which is vital in canine communication for example. Most European countries have outlawed the practise of tail docking as cruel and barbaric. Dogs with intact tails have hunted for centuries without any injuries to their tails .

Sarah

I agree with this 100%.

As for the breeding? I'm with you, Jules. My puppy, whom I adopted from a lady that couldn't sell him, is a thoroughbred Lhasa Apso. Complete with infected ears from the wild hairgrowth, a potential collapsing trachea, and the worst one...kidney disease. He is only 1 year old. Why this woman bred her two Lhasas is beyond me, but I can only assume she did it out of ignorance. It was her first litter.

But the experienced breeders? We can't say, "They don't know better" because they do. They do it because these dogs, with their genetic defects, are in demand and are fashionable. Supply and demand...even pets have somehow managed to work their way into the world of capitalism.

doctor_evil also has a point, however, in that working dogs are sometimes needed. I couldn't really see a little Shih Tzu mix herding a flock of sheep. But, there are so many unwanted mixed breeds out there now, and many are of shepherd/sheep dog stock. All ya gotta do is check the paper or call the pound. I, for one, could never justify buying a dog, even a working one, when there are so many looking for a home right now.

Great topic, btw.

peasant

While a good portion of the blame for ever sicker and unfit-for-life dogs has to be laid at the breeders doors, it is just basic "market forces" at work.

People want to buy, other people want to make money.

That coupled with the total disrespect for the rights and the wellbeing of a fellow creature has brought us where we are today.

Ever since the industrial revolution, when people left the land in droves, dogs have become pretty much pointless as working dogs and drifted towards status symbols and fashion accessories.

Most breeds we know today were only defined then (or later) out of "pretty" looking crosses of some working strain or another. Breeding standards are all about looks and appearance (size, colour, shape) and have blatant disregard for the health of the dog.
By limiting the appearance of a certain breed to certain parameters only, a huge amount of dogs was excluded from the genepool for that breed. Inbreeding from an ever decreasing genepool became the standard. Then followed the over-emphazising of certain aspects (ever shorter noses, bigger eyes, miniaturism, gigantism, etc). The end result is, that there are very few breeds left out there that could truly be regarded as healthy, natural and sound.

Unfortunately ...as most mixes are mixes of "pedigree" dogs to some degree, even getting a "mongrel" doesn't automatically guarantee health anymore.

The basic problem is, that with the short breeding cycles of dogs and their ability to mate with each other across all sizes and shapes, it is so easy for man to play GOD and craete a "new" animal that satisfies the current fashion and trends.

And that's exactly what we have done ...catered to our every whim.

Even today, in our so called "enlightened" age this is still going on ...if anything it is getting worse. The internet is the perfect marketing tool, cinema and television creates ever new doggy images in our heads (the Andrex puppy anyone? ...even Top Gear now has a dog on the show ...why?) and the icons of our time (pop stars, models, etc) are rarely seen without a dog. Just look at the explosion of new "breeds" like the multitude of -oodles and -poos. Everybody with a backyard is a "breeder" these days, trowing a new breed per week on the market.

Unless the "consumer" simply stops buying these "creations", it will continue forever.

Well, not exactly forever ...in the not too distant future we will have managed to breed all dogs to death.

Literally.

peasant

Another problem is people's obsession with brands and image.

It simply isn't good enough to just go and get "a dog". It has to be a "boxer" or "Shi-Tzu" or whatever. Even when it is a mix, it at least has to be a mix of some breed with another ...simply "dog" is by no means good enough for most people.

Breeders clubs and associations very cleverly tend to that brand consciousness by promoting theit "brand" with breed descriptions that are at best wishful thinking, but in most cases just blatant lies.

Depending on the "target group" that a certain breed is aimed for, the breed descriptions contain all sorts of advertising bumpf and broad, sweeping generalisations, creating the impression that if you only buy a X-breed, it will practically raise itself into just the perfect dog for you and your requirements.

A multitude of websites and "buying guides" cater to that nonsense, offering breed comparisons and so called buying advice. By ticking a few boxes, you automatically end up with a choice of a few breeds and links to websites of their breeders.

Only problem is ...you're buying a living being ...not a car or a handbag.

But very few buyers seem to realise that.

eiretamicha

peasant, very well said on all accounts.

EGAR

Here's a brilliant article re breeding and the genetic cul-de-sac that so many breeders wont see or ignore. It's long but well worth reading.

http://siriusdog.com/articles/dog-genetic-mutations-genome.htm

Sarah

Jules

great to see there are some like minded ppl out there, and some have a bit of compassion and i know the mongrel breed doesnt mean a healthy dog, but too m uch breeding will evenutally lead to inbreeding, and well we all know thats not good, really glad started this topic, hopefully it will open up some minds

Dyr

One thing to throw out there is to take a look at the people who founded the concept of purebreed's and kennel club's. Mostly the upper classes and aristocracy who back then were obsessed with the idea of breeding and lineage in their own live's. People who actually used working dog's probably couldnt have cared less once a dog could do the job.

I still have no problem with people wanting to own a "breed" eg a rottie or something, it's just that the popularity of some breeds mean's the breeders are drawing a lot of water from a very limited genetic well.

Jules

well pets are still seen as a status symbol, paris dumb bint hilton dress her dog up in cloths, its a dog let it be a dog and if you want to dress something up go and have a baby or something..... dogs are ment to be running around happy waggin their non docked tails showing everyone how happy they are, and ppl who say that tail docking is for working dogs, bull!!!!! how many jrt or yorkies do you see working, i have met prolly two in my life time, they dont need their tails taken away, come on ppl the way they do it!!!!! tie rubber bands around them till they drop off, og yeah thats gotta be a walk in the park!!!!!1

and i have nothing against people owning purebreed dogs if that is what floats your boat whatever but the practice of not looking into the dogs medical back ground or even making sure their is no in breeding, i have met several ppl who have let their dogs have pups when there are obvious medical issues.....

yeah know im ranting but its something i feel quite strongly about, there are hundreds of dogs being killed every week, perfectly good sweet dogs, that just cuz there isnt IKC reg after their names are not good enough.... and another thing most purebreed dogs can be nastly little things with attitude problems, yeah im gonna get a lashing sayin all dogs are nasty, i can see the point but if you look at it properly the majority of dogs that bite and turn on their owners are purebreeds.....

ok rant over im gonna read my ARAN newsletter

eiretamicha

jules80 wrote:

they dont need their tails taken away, come on ppl the way they do it!!!!! tie rubber bands around them till they drop off, og yeah thats gotta be a walk in the park!!!!!1

It's even worse over here. So many times I had to assist these types of "surgery" when I was a veterinary technician, and I can't tell you how many times the tears would just flow down my cheeks while I was thinking, "This is just wrong"... Here, the puppy is a couple days old when it's brought in for the tail docking. The vet tech holds the puppy, the vet grabs a pair of sterilized nail clippers, and cuts the tail off. Snap. Just like that. The puppy screams and wriggles, and I had to keep holding it still so the vet could then put one suture through the tip of the tail.

It's done without any anesthesia, and it's one of the cruelest things anyone could ever get done to their puppies. And it's one of the many reasons I left the veterinary field.

Jules

man there are some sick sick ppl in this world

EGAR

Man in Black: all of a sudden I was inundated with queries about pugs
The Osbournes: lots of emails from people who wanted to *rescue* an English Bulldog from me and am still getting them
101 Dalamations 2: same story as above

The list is endless. Also, I find that alot of people are simply ignorant of the whole matter, haven't a clue what ED, HD, OCD mean for the dog and for them.

Prime example of the film industry imposing our tastes of what's IN: Shrek.

Yes, Shrek! Before that darn movie nobody wanted donkeys, not many bred them. All of a sudden the demand was MASSIVE and prices went sky high. Now the country is full of donekys and nobody is paying those prices anymore. Soon we'll have more rescue donkeys and donkeys being shipped to France. I can see it coming.

shinners007

jules having IKC reg after the name of a dog doesnt mean its more special than another it simply means that the owner can check the sir and dam bloodlines etc.. hence preventing inbreeding occuring?? is this not a good thing??

now as for cross breeds etc.. and breeders who have puppy mills i think this is a disgrace. i recently went to a so called reputable breeder and saw loads of cross breeds labs springer/cocker etc.. i asked waht the deal was he replyed " these things happen" a breeder will export em as there is a demand for em abroad. now to me thing happen isnt good enough if one wishes to be a breeder breed within ones means. why cant people stick to breeding one type rather than gettin greedy and then not being able to control the situation. its sickening.

i breed boxers. ok i own two female and one male. thats my limit, they reside on nearly half an acre of land, snowy, gypsy and max love space plus dogs need freedom. now my dogs are show dogs and have champion bloodlines and are treated as family. there indoors playing with kids etc, on a daily basis.
i go mad when all breeders are painted with the one brush. i live for boxers and dog shows and put a lot of time love and yes money into ensuring they want for nothing. i always welcome people to view them at any time.

now sorry for blabbling but i had to get that in. i no theres money to be made in breeding i could if i wanted breed other types of dogs but i personally wouldnt, boxers are my preference and the only breed i no best so i wouldnt bother. its simple if people stopped seeking xbreeds etc.. the demand would reduce however i cant see this happening myself.

to the issue of docking tails, i dont hear anyone here saying casterating a bull is wrong? why so cos its common. people have preferences some like long tails others like short, wrong or right it'll always be an argument for those involved. my opinion is if you like long tails dont dock it if one likes a docked tail have it docked. my boxers hav docked tails as they wouldnt win a show with a long tail. its taht true. fashion is what caues it, and breeders arent always to blame they simply provide for a DEMAND that exists while making a PROFIT out of it.

in fact i saw a boxer only once with a long tail and it didnt look horrible or gorgeous either, it was hard to say with myself being so used to docked tails.

anyhow my point is some breeders are excellant others run puppy mills, some people rescue puppys from shelters, some people hate dogs... this thread comes down to opinion and preference and people could argue forever about it without trying to do anything about it. that place i went to i rang the ISPCA as the dogs where all undernourished and badly treated.

animals lovers should act on there words more rather than just moaning about the wrongs and rights theres worse things than docking dogs tailing happening to dogs and other animals all across ireland everyday day of the week.

tj-music.com

grimloch wrote:

Because there's a market for them.

That´s true unfortunately. Work in an animal clinic myself ( as a volunteer that is) and study a lot of animal related stuff and sometimes it drives me crazy to see those poor dogs with really bad conditions :mad:

peasant

jules having IKC reg after the name of a dog doesnt mean its more special than another it simply means that the owner can check the sir and dam bloodlines etc.. hence preventing inbreeding occuring?? is this not a good thing??

The owner *could* check ...most don't bother because they think the paperwork actually means anything. How far back does it go? Two or three generations, isn't it?

to the issue of docking tails, i dont hear anyone here saying casterating a bull is wrong? why so cos its common. people have preferences some like long tails others like short, wrong or right it'll always be an argument for those involved. my opinion is if you like long tails dont dock it if one likes a docked tail have it docked. my boxers hav docked tails as they wouldnt win a show with a long tail. its taht true. fashion is what caues it, and breeders arent always to blame they simply provide for a DEMAND that exists while making a PROFIT out of it.

Now that is a silly argument.
How about if the majority of men suddenly decided that women with their little toes removed are more desirable.
Would you cut your daughter's little toes off in order to get her "married off"?

No?

There you go ...

But you happily do it to your:

my dogs are show dogs and have champion bloodlines and are treated as family.

animals lovers should act on there words more rather than just moaning about the wrongs and rights theres worse things than docking dogs tailing happening to dogs and other animals all across ireland everyday day of the week

Well ...in that case I would strongly suggest that YOU start by not docking your "families" tails and not cropping their ears.

Howsthat for a suggestion ?

As a breeder nobody expects you to take the whole weight of animal cruelty onto your own shoulders ...but as a self professed "animal lover" you really should start in your own back yard, literally.

You say it's up to the individual choice of the buyers. Well no ...it isn't really. Just don't give them the choice. Sell them uncrippled animals only. The right kind of buyer will buy anyway ...or just because your dogs are undocked/uncropped.

But then again ...that would exclude you from champion shows and you wouldn't get the "all important" paperwork, thus reducing the "market value" of your wares.

So please forgive for not taking you seriously when you say:

i live for boxers and ... put a lot of time love and yes money into ensuring they want for nothing

This:

i live for boxers and dog shows

sounds much more like the truth

EGAR

Most IKC reg'd dogs are line bred and line breeding means INBREEDING .

So much for that.

And when you say they want for nothing then you might be forgetting their tails .

Sarah

EGAR

Oh and while we are on the subject of Boxers, here's a list of diseases (some of them genetic) to which the Boxer is prone to:

Aortic stenosis/subaortic stenosis (AS/SAS)
Boxer cardiomyopathy
Hip dysplasia
Hypothyroidism
Corneal dystrophy
Demodectic mange
Cancer (skin, bowel, testicular, lungs and brain)
Bloat
Allergies
Cryptorchism
Deafness (white boxers mainly)

ALOT, if you ask me .

Sarah

Li'l Irish

There are reasons a person could want a specific breed beyond working dogs. Maybe you're allergic to pet dander so you'd want a hair breed, like Bichon Frises or poodles, not a bichonxjack russell *we think* that might or might not shed. Size also features into it. If you live in an apartment and need a small dog, you should have a pretty good idea of how big it's going to get.

I had the same situation myself with a rabbit recently: I needed a dwarf bunny that would fit into a cage made for rats, so I contacted a hotot breeder and got my Percy:


I got so much flak from people for *buying* a rabbit instead of adopting one. I looked for suitable bunnies through all the shelters and didn't find one.

I won't go into the tail or ear docking. Personally I think natural ears on a Boxer or Great Dane look ten times better, but it comes down to your personal preference.

Now that is a silly argument.
How about if the majority of men suddenly decided that women with their little toes removed are more desirable.
Would you cut your daughter's little toes off in order to get her "married off"?

No?

There you go ...

No, we only pierce thier ears, force them into high heeled shoes that effect thier skeletal and muscular development, and turn them loose with the knowledge that they'll never be skinny or pretty enough no matter how hard they try.

And that's just in the 'civilized' world. In parts of Africa and Asia, women would happily chop off *all* thier toes if that's all they had to lose.

Danes

Two of my four dogs are pure bred with all the possible illnesses and defects you care to name. I've kept this breed for 15 years and while each one is different they do share some common traits which appeal to me. I'm tired of the high moral ground brigade who carry on as if owning a purebred dog is something shameful. Rather than bleat about puppy farming and BYBs, check out ANVIL on www.irishanimals.ie and lend your support where it really counts.

peasant

Now, how did a thread about pedigree dogs end up with a piccie of a bunny wabbit and women's right's issues in Africa ??


But more importantly:

I needed a dwarf bunny that would fit into a cage made for rats

What ??

Slight mixup in the priorities there, methinks

Danes wrote:

owning a purebred dog is something shameful

No it isn't. Provided that dog was bred with ITS health in mind not only the profit of the breeder.

Two of my four dogs are pure bred with all the possible illnesses and defects you care to name.

You make that sound as if you were proud of being able to cope with it. (??)

Are you not annoyed that your favourite breed has come into such a desperate state?

shinners007

look peasant i said it all comes down to preference, my puppys are sold with undocked tails the owner can dock them if they wish so THE CHOICE IS THERE YA. and for the record my dogs ears arent croped so dont accuse me of somthing i dont do ok

as for common disease associated with boxers, well im well aware of them however that doesnt mean stop breeding a beautiful dog theres a risk of disease with very dog, so get it right. my dogs get regular check ups and wont be ever tossed aside if they become ill/cannot breed.

as for IKC you can trace back SIX generations so get it right. anyone sensible enogh to breed WILL check the bloodlines as inbreeding increases the risk of illness.

plus pesant how dare you twist my quotes, becuse i like boxers tails short does not make me any less of any animal lover ok. so please dont insult me.

next thing youll do is tell people rescue animals from shelters but not ones with docked tails is it. get real, your little rant is based on opinion the owner will decide the way they want there dogs tails and you or i or anyone else isnt going to change it. im not saying its right im simply saying certain factors cause this to happen fashion etc..

anyhow i think the problem of inbreeding is far more serious than tail docking, more mongrels are tossed aside than docked tailed dogs.. causing so many dogs to become unwanted.

just cause my preference on a boxer is short tailed this doesnt give you the right to slate the care i rovide for my animals when you yourself no nothing about boxers, shows or breeding.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

shinners007

maybe peasant cant afford a PB dog and is just jealous of those who do. by the way his talking everyone should own mongrels, not buy IKC and run away if they see a dog with a docked tail.

some people take pride in their animals and alot of hard work goes into PB breeding this shouldnt be forgotten just becaus some breeders get greedy and create a puppy mill/cross breeds. peasant you should be a bit more open minded IKC is brillant as it allows one to ensure no inbreeding will occur, rather than having people breeding cross breeds/inbreeds. IKC allows the information to be there its up to a decent person to utilize this. so give it the credit it deserves and pure PB dogs also.