Pedigree dogs.... whats the point

peasant

Och ...shinners 007 ...

So you like docked tails, yet you sell your pups with complete tails. On your own dogs you cut it off eventually ...on your pups you leave it up to the buyer ...

Is or isn't it illegal now, to dock tails? It certainly is illegal in most countries on the continent. Either way you seem to be hedging your bets there ...


I will not go into the inner workings of the Irish Kennel Club, as I'm not a breeder and not familiar with the IKC's rules and regulations. For all I know they may actually be a wonderful organistion with only the dog's best interest at heart.
Still I have seen many a sick PB with IKC papers.

As we're getting personal:
peasant currently shares his life with the following dogs:

1 mix (2x PB afaik) from a so called "breeder", left at a shelter at 18 months of age after owners got divorced.

1 mix of unknown parentage, thrown over somebodies fence at the tender age of about 12 weeks, collected by peasant (through a rescue organistion)about 6 weeks later and loved dearly even though some cruel bastard cut its tail off

1 purebred dog, paid for and collected personally by peasant and wife from the neighbouring island at considerate expense.

Seenashow I have one of everything, I think there is no need for jealousy

you yourself no nothing about boxers, shows or breeding

boxers = dog = like any other dog, just looks like a boxer

dog shows = sickening display of human vanity and competetivness = major bitching session about judges and their favourites, other breeders and their "products" behind their backs = a massive ordeal for the shown dogs = no real interst in dogs (i. e. dogs in general, "other" dogs), just medals and ribbons = laughable really, if it wasn't so sad ...and yes, I've been to more than I'd care to admit.

Breeding = I know for sure that I don't know nearly enough about genetics to even dare try breeding myself ...just like 90% of all breeders in the world, only it hasn't kept them from "trying"

and finally:

plus pesant how dare you twist my quotes, becuse i like boxers tails short does not make me any less of any animal lover ok. so please dont insult me

I didn't twist anything ...just highlighted some contradictions.

But to the core of your argument:

Yes my dear, "liking" a dogs tail to be mutilated DOES make you less of an animal lover. Because you are ranking your personal taste higher than an animals right to an unmutilated body. Because you simply cut of a bodypart of a fellow creature just because it pleases you visually. The fact that the tail plays a vital part in inter-doggy communications as well as for poise and balance of the animal when maneuvering and runnning never even crosses your mind. You just cut it off because you LIKE it !! You turn a fellow being into a cripple for life, because you prefer it that way.

That not only makes you definetly NOT an animal lover, it clearly shows you for the cruel, selfish, impassionate and unempathetic person that you are. That you can do it to animals that you bred and reared from birth and consider "family" only makes it so much worse.

And that is no insult ...that's just sad fact.

shinners007

see you yourself bought from a breeder talk about contradication.

docking tails isnt going to stop cos u want it to, as i said previuosly my boxers tails were docked when i bought em. i dont dock my puppys tail so aint the cruel person u describe.

again i wont lower my standard and argue at the end of the day it comes down to preference...


leave ya 2 it peasant since ur such a notitall try stick around and become a mod it would suit you.....

peasant

shinners007 wrote:

again i wont lower my standard and argue at the end of the day it comes down to preference...

No, no and no again ...it does bloody well NOT come down to preference.

Your so called "preference" has given us breeds with such deformed noses that they can't breathe any more, it has given us miniaturisation to such a degree that skull bones won't grow together any more, it has given us such large eyes, that they are constantly infected, long backs that have damaged disks, short legs that are permanently out of joint, massive growth that causes constant joint and bone problems and pain, inbreeding that spreads genetic disease and mass production that gives us sick, agressive, substandard dogs.

Preference is wrong!

Respect, knowledge and restraint are what's needed.

Respect for a fellow creature, its rights, its needs, its capabilities, its shortcomings.

Knowlegde how to breed, raise and care for these fellow creatures so that you will cause them no harm. Knowledge that these creatures are our reponsibility.

And restraint from "wanting" regardless of the consequences or circumstances. Wanting to own, wanting to multiply and most of all wanting to "create".




And as an explanation to everybody else ... only after I bought from a breeder where my eyes opened to what goes on. I also believed in papers and breed descriptions ...not any more.

But that isnt the dog's fault ...hence the dog stays and I learn.

EGAR

Danes wrote:

Two of my four dogs are pure bred with all the possible illnesses and defects you care to name. I've kept this breed for 15 years and while each one is different they do share some common traits which appeal to me. I'm tired of the high moral ground brigade who carry on as if owning a purebred dog is something shameful. Rather than bleat about puppy farming and BYBs, check out ANVIL on www.irishanimals.ie and lend your support where it really counts.

Well, thanks for the advice but maybe you should look at my website and see what I do before you get off on one re support where it really counts and tell me what to do .

I have had and still have plenty of PB dogs in rescue, I even phone the breeders on the off chance that they mght be interested in what became of their *babies*. All (but one old lady from NI) had naught to say, no back up plan - NOTHING! These dogs aren't just PB, they have papers as well .

Sarah

Li'l Irish

What ??

Slight mixup in the priorities there, methinks

Not when I spent three hundred dollars on a cage as large as I am. A full sized rabbit could easily fit into the cage, but I didn't want it to have to squeeze to get from floor to floor.

Jules

Hey guys just back from a stint in the country and nice to see that a couple of people have decided to use their brains.... where do I start

tail docking, has to be without a shadow of a doubt the most cruel and unnecessary thing a dog has to go through, and as for comparing it to castration, go and educate yourself... you said you sell both your puppies with docked and undocked tails, then you say I don’t dock my puppies tails, fair enough you cannot be accounted for your own dogs as they were bought in that god awful condition... but a tail is use to convey emotions and also for balance, so lets cut off your lips and prevent you from smiling or frowning and see how much you like it!!!!!!! It is a disgusting and barbaric practice that should be completely banned.....

Next breeders

doesn’t matter if you are breeding in a mill or in the best set up, you are still breeding from dogs that have genetic defects, and there is no way of saying that this is not true!!!!!!!!! And if you think about it... all together now... logically, if you breed two dogs with the same genetic defect will the said defect not get worse, and I’m sorry but yeah I know you can go back generations and generations, but records can be changed and the only way they can be shown to be true is DNA testing and I’m sorry but I don’t think that is widely available, so please do not say you know for a fact that your dogs are not inbred!!!!!!!!

and I am not condemning people for owning PB dogs but for the love of god isn’t there enough animals out there looking for homes without breeders good or bad bringing more into this world, for nothing other than profit!!!!! Wake up and smell the java guys we are breeding the most adorable animals on the plant into a defective dying unhappy sick... god I know that sounds stupid but we are indirectly cutting our noses off to spite our faces.....

Again thanks to egar and peasant for keeping the side up!!!!!!

shinners007

oh ya jules ur advice is breeders (the decent good ones) dont bother breeding dogs within a healthy environment as there is enough of em, just let every stray breed away creating more mongrels, how many dogs do u see running loose around towns and citys? these create more unwanted dogs than breeders do. as for genetic problems my dogs are healthy and have no illness( 4 annual chek ups to the vet minimum) so why is it wrong to breed them. imagine the cross breeders/strays that are breeding there is no way ther history can be traced surely this is a larger problem than responsible breeders breeding.

i agree docking tails is cruel, i dont no why peasant is slating me, i never docked a dogs tails howver just becase my boxers tails were docked when i bought em is he trying to say i shoulnt have bought em? sorry but a docked tail wasnt goin to get me not to buy them thats cruel also.

fair enough tails shoulnt be docked but lets be honest they are so what do ye want to do tell everyone not to buy/rescue dogs with docked tails at present. now if it were banned then this wont be a problem however since it isnt this argument does come down to preference regardless to it being morally wrong. people just do what they like to dogs when they are an owner and thats a fact for you peasant.

and as i said it still comes down to preference even if it is wrong, people will do what they like peasant this is my argument. since the ban doesnt exist this will continue am i right? im basing my argument on the present facts? you are focusing on the animal solely which is genuinely nice, but lets me honest who will decide the dog/owner? the owner of course thats the way it is. that is all im trying to say.

peasant

shinners

As to docking ...here's a simple solution and one first step into the right direction:

On the sale of one of your pups you simply and clearly state in the contract that the dog is only sold on the basis that it will not be docked. Any docking at a later stage will null and void the sale and revert the dog back into your property.

And then you check up every so often.

And if you really cared, then you would try and convince your fellow breedes in the IKC to do the same ...in other words the IKC would just impose a ban on docking all by itself.

That's what a responsible breeder would do.

By just washing your hands of it once the pup is sold your making it too easy for yourself.

Don't leave it up to the great unwashed masses to decide over the fate of your dogs. Most of them are pig ignorant when it comes to dogs. You as a breeder have a responsibility to lead and educate ...at least do it for your own pups if you value them as much as you try to make us believe.

Jules

shinners

there is absolutely no point in talking to you as you cannot see past your own nose, im a complete advocate of neutering and spaying, and if pet owners where more responsible and did this and didnt let their dogs roam about freely.. well then..... and you cannot sit there and say you dogs have no illness, they have defects at the genetic level that you cannot see, and which will arise as they get older, also look at their faces, and you will see the biggest one of all!!!!!!

as long as there are ppl out there who cannot accept the facts will have doomed mans best friend

Vegeta

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docking_%28animals%29

look for the legal status of docking in a lot of countries.

Does anyone here even own a working dog???

Have you seen first hand how a dogs tail becomes absolutely useless to him as a form of communication, poise or balance due to damage from beating in an out of vegetation while hunting.

If you honestly think that docking a tail is worse than saving them from a lifetime of pain and discomfort fair enough.

We refused to dock our fisrt pair of hunting dogs (springers) only to have to do it years later anyway due to damage and scar tissue. One dog at 2 and a half years the other dog 3 years old.

Ever since we have docked our hunting dogs tails.

I agree there is no point in doing it to a non working dog

peasant

If you honestly think that docking a tail is worse than saving them from a lifetime of pain and discomfort fair enough

Always the same argument ...dog might get hurt, so lets cripple it preventatively.

If it does get hurt and you have to (partially) amputate the tail ...so be it. But don't do it beforehand.


To illustrate how stupid your argument is:

"So, Mr/Mrs Vegeta ...I see you have applied for a job in our sawmills. To prevent you from possibly experiencing some pain caused by work accidents, I' m sure you don't mind if we cut off three fingers on each hand as a preventative measure, do you?"

Vegeta

Your so off the point its not even funny.

The dogs suffered for 2 and a half and 3 years

Every time we went hunting i'd end up unknotting their tails and wiping them down with disinfectant as they would be cut and the slight gashes in the tail needed cleaning.

Eventually about 2 years of damage rendered the tails useless. it wasn't a one off accident as your little analogy states. It was constant and repeated damage, I would never put another dog through it.

If its such a crap arguement whay do many countries allow it while banning it for cosmetic purposes.

Do you have a hunting dog? have you ever brought a dog out working?

peasant

One might also argue that you could simply stop hunting with dogs, especially as hunting in this day and age is nothing more than a superflous "sport".

But that is a separate debate.

Danes

Its interesting to hear what peasant says about buying from a breeder and then having his eyes opened - a similar thing happened to me. Its absolutely true that there are breeders who have no scruples when it comes to the welfare of their animals and there are those who think that breeding is just a matter of finding a bitch and dog or the same breed - much like a large portion of the buying public. So, it seems to me that rather than being a pedigree v cross breed issue, its an issue of how to educate the general public in how to spot inferior breeders and NOT to buy from them. The only way to stop the supply of poorly bred dogs is to stop the demand.

Pounds and rescues are overflowing with cross breeds and so it will be unless everyone decides to spay and neuter their pet dogs. Badly bred pedigrees will always exist unless buyers demand a far higher standard from breeders.

I have a beautifully bred pedigree, a very badly bred pedigree, a deliberate cross breed and an accidental cross breed in my family and cant say that I value one more highly than the rest.

Vegeta

peasant wrote:

One might also argue that you could simply stop hunting with dogs, especially as hunting in this day and age is nothing more than a superflous "sport".

But that is a separate debate.

One might argue to stop breeding dogs!

peasant

One might argue to stop breeding dogs!

One might indeed ...

And when one looks at the sick and disfigured creatures that so called "breeders" are churning out, that option is looking better every minute.

But isn't that what this thread is all about?

EGAR

The Wikipedia list is out of date . Scotland for example has banned docking for both hunting and *normal* dogs. It wont be long before the rest of the UK will follow and hopefully Ireland is next .

As to the hunting dog debatte re tail injuries, I have heard it all, being a member of the anti docking alliance for years. I know many undocked working/hunting dogs and those have never had a tail injuries. It's a ridiculious argument which ALWAYS comes from hunters . A bit more doggy hygiene such as cleaning tails of debris after a walk or a hunt, my advise .

Sarah

peasant

Danes wrote:

So, it seems to me that rather than being a pedigree v cross breed issue, its an issue of how to educate the general public in how to spot inferior breeders and NOT to buy from them. The only way to stop the supply of poorly bred dogs is to stop the demand.

Yes ...in an ideal world educated buyers would simply refuse to spend good money on poorly bred animals, instead mop up all the unwanted dogs out there and force breeders into re-thinking.

Problem is ...a lot of people know VERY little about dogs. And those that try to get information usually only get it from questionable sources, i.e. breeders websites, kennell clubs etc.

Independant, unbiased, factual information is very hard to come by

Vegeta

EGAR wrote:

The Wikipedia list is out of date . Scotland for example has banned docking for both hunting and *normal* dogs. It wont be long before the rest of the UK will follow and hopefully Ireland is next .

As to the hunting dog debatte re tail injuries, I have heard it all, being a member of the anti docking alliance for years. I know many undocked working/hunting dogs and those have never had a tail injuries. It's a ridiculious argument which ALWAYS comes from hunters . A bit more doggy hygiene such as cleaning tails of debris after a walk or a hunt, my advise .

Sarah

Sarah I can assure you after spending hours and hours training a dog to working standards you grow to love and value a dog as a family member, of course you already know this. Our dogs were extremely hard workers (which is why the tail damage occured) and were cleaned after every outing yet they still had the misfortune of having their tails operated on.

You say the arguement always comes from hunters, well maybe they don't want to see dogs suffer without reason. Maybe they have experienced something you haven't.

I agree some working breeds are more prone to damage than others. For example pointers and setters don't generally beat cover like a spaniel or a retreiving breed.

Again the only reason I support docking in working breeds is first hand experience. Can you say the same? Have you hunted with the same dog for 4-5 years.

EGAR

I don't hunt with dogs as I consider this a bloodsport and quite perverse to use a domesticated animal to kill/hunt down a wild one.

But I live in rural Ireland and before that near Billings, Montana, so I have lots of contact with hunters and their dogs, many of them undocked. My OH's brother goes hunting with undocked dogs (Spaniels, Pointer and Terrier), he's never had a problem tailwise and he hunts for nearly 40 years. He insists that his dogs are undocked, he wont even look a docked hunting dog puppy. So there you go .

Sarah

EGAR

peasant wrote:

Yes ...in an ideal world educated buyers would simply refuse to spend good money on poorly bred animals, instead mop up all the unwanted dogs out there and force breeders into re-thinking.

Problem is ...a lot of people know VERY little about dogs. And those that try to get information usually only get it from questionable sources, i.e. breeders websites, kennell clubs etc.

Independant, unbiased, factual information is very hard to come by

100% d'accord, Peasant.

One forgets all to easy that most modern breeds are only 100 years old or so. They all stem from the same breeding pairs. And to all those who think that breeding purebred dogs is genetically ok; have a hard look at the link I posted earlier re genetic cul-de-sac.

Sarah

Jules

ok i know this isnt a post about hunting etc, as i am the one who started it, but oh my god stop hunting!!!!
vegeta what type of hunting do you do, dont u understand that is it by far the most sick thing any grown human can do1!!!! my god.... i cant even go on, thanks to egar and peasant for so well expressing the views which i completely share as at the moment i feel sick to my stomach... and cant do it myself

Vegeta

jules80 wrote:

ok i know this isnt a post about hunting etc, as i am the one who started it, but oh my god stop hunting!!!!
vegeta what type of hunting do you do, dont u understand that is it by far the most sick thing any grown human can do1!!!! my god.... i cant even go on, thanks to egar and peasant for so well expressing the views which i completely share as at the moment i feel sick to my stomach... and cant do it myself

you have gone completely off topic but i will defend myself, but i assume as you can condemn a man/woman going out shooting an animal and eating it, you are a strict vegtarian.

EGAR

I can't speak for Jules80 but I am for the last 30 years.

Sarah

Vegeta

EGAR wrote:

I don't hunt with dogs as I consider this a bloodsport and quite perverse to use a domesticated animal to kill/hunt down a wild one.

as opposed to a killing a chicken or pig who never see the light of day. People have hunted animals for thousands and thousands of years.

But I live in rural Ireland and before that near Billings, Montana, so I have lots of contact with hunters and their dogs, many of them undocked. My OH's brother goes hunting with undocked dogs (Spaniels, Pointer and Terrier), he's never had a problem tailwise and he hunts for nearly 40 years. He insists that his dogs are undocked, he wont even look a docked hunting dog puppy. So there you go .

Sarah

Well sarah as i pointed out pointers and terriers would not need their tails docked as they are not involed in beating any thick cover. So there ya go.


Obviously you OH's brother is a very lucky guy then isn't he. I wasn't so fortunate.

Danes

In an ideal world, everyone would spay/neuter pet dogs so there would be no unwanted ones. So whats the solution? No Pedigrees? No mongrels because no indescriminate breeding? I'm not sure what those of you who believe breeding pure bred dogs is wrong, want exactly.

fits

This is a really good thread lads, please dont let it go off topic. Hunting threads always go a bit mad!

I think most people in Ireland know little about dogs. The attitudes really surprise me sometimes. I dont know anything about genetic diseases etc. I just know if you have a dog it should be neutered, cos theres enough unwanted around!

EGAR

Vegeta, he has Spaniels too, English and Cocker . And the chicken and pig comparison is limping a bit, as we were talking about using dogs to hunt wild animals . But maybe we should open a seperate thread for the hunting.

As to the breeding bit: it seems to be a popular misconception that rescues are full of crossbreeds. But that's not true, many PB's find themselves in rescues as well. In the 10 years that I do rescue here in Ireland, I re-homed hundreds of dogs, many of them PB's and many of the PB were papered.

Sarah

peasant

Danes wrote:

In an ideal world, everyone would spay/neuter pet dogs so there would be no unwanted ones. So whats the solution? No Pedigrees? No mongrels because no indescriminate breeding? I'm not sure what those of you who believe breeding pure bred dogs is wrong, want exactly.

Personally I think that breeding dogs per se isn't wrong at all. After all, dogs have to come from somewhere and I'd rather they come from a controlled environement than just multiply in the streets.

BUT

And this is a realy biiiig "but ...

What has happened to "the dog" in general by subcategorizing it into breeds is sickening.

A breed of dog is not a different animal ...it's still a dog. But in order to get the huge differences between breeds established and the breed to look uniform, it meant to exclude 99.999% of all dogs genetic material from that breed. Simply put ...one took two similar looking dogs, bred off them and then bred off their offspring in different degrees of relatedness until one could narrow down a breed standard. And from then on only a few selected animals from within that breed actually got to spread their genes. So every breed has a very, very shallow gene pool to dip into. This is made worse by the fact that any variation or spontaneous mutation is automatically excluded from breeding by the breed standard. (see also the article that EGAR posted)

And worst of all, due to fashion(s), most breed standards have by now deviated so far off from what is healthy and natural that most dogs are now saddled doubly in the health stakes. Not only are they inbred and carry all sorts of genetical defects, but even if they are otherwise "healthy" they are so deformed and mis-shaped that they have real trouble getting through life without pain and agony.

So, Danes to answer your question ...what would I like to see happening:

I would like people to forget about breeds as we know them altogether. To place less emphasis on looks and appearance of their dogs, and a lot more emphasis on their health and sound mind and body.
No dog should be required to look the exact same as another dog anymore ...unless is 100% healthy and sound and the similarity is a sheer "accident"
People shouldn't want "purebred" any more ...instead they should ask for a big/small/middle, shaggy/rough coated/short haired, brown/black/speckled, healthy and sound dog whose parentage has beed screened for health down as many generations as possible.

Maybe then you would find breeders who would try their best to offer exactly that and not just "Alsations", "Boxers", "Chihuhuas", "Dalmations" down to "Z"

Vegeta

EGAR wrote:

Vegeta, he has Spaniels too, English and Cocker . And the chicken and pig comparison is limping a bit, as we were talking about using dogs to hunt wild animals . But maybe we should open a seperate thread for the hunting.

Sarah

Yeah I saw that he had Spaniels which is why i said he was lucky, lucky that the dogs have not been injured.

The dog will follow the scent of a bird and the bird will take flight when the dog is close enough. Then the hunter can fire a shot at said bird. This involves the dog breaking through some pretty thick cover, which is where the damage usually occurs.

Also how is the chicken and pig comparison limping a bit, we as hunters rare birds from eggs in outdoor pens where they roam freely and then release them into the wild and then try and hunt them with the above method. Not every bird released is shot. Modern agricultural practice is a lot crueler than hunting.

Chickens and pigs which nearly everbody eats (not you obviously) never see the light of day, well maybe in the truck to the slaughter house. They are fattened up for human consumption, kept in rooms at constant temperatures to promote growth and never taste freedom

Which do you think is crueler, docking a tail or pulling out a piglets teeth one by one so they don't bite the mother when suckling. Chickens are electrocuted to death.

Hunters have such a bad public reputation whereas the average meat eater is unaware of the hardship of mass farmed animals such as pigs, beef catle(in America) and chickens.