Pedigree dogs.... whats the point

peasant

Which do you think is crueler, docking a tail or pulling out a piglets teeth one by one so they don't bite the mother when suckling.

This is no pissing match ...

Both these things are cruel and wrong. There is no such thing as "less cruel"


Yesterday at the sawmills, during the interview:
"Would Mr/Mrs Vegeta prefer to have his/her fingers cut off with a hatchet or rather with a machete?"
"Ahh ...I think I'll have the hatchet if it's all the same to you. The machete looks a bit blunt to me, so I guess the hatchet would be less cruel..."

Vegeta

peasant wrote:

This is no pissing match ...

Both these things are cruel and wrong. There is no such thing as "less cruel"

Exactly my point, yet one is a part of modern farming and how many people here are going "Docking is so wrong and evil" yet they eat pork or other animal products without remorse. I am not accusing you in particular peasant.

peasant

But the one cruelty (docking) is so much easier and simpler to end than modern farming methods (which I personally also abhorr and don't support, even though i do eat meat occasionally but only from very select sources)

But coming back to dogs / purebreds ...

It is the same "supermarket mentality" that makes people buy clinically packaged meat, not wanting to know where and how it came from that makes them buy neatly "packaged" and advertised dogs without caring in the slightest about their health or background.

I want THIS, I want it NOW and that is all I choose to care about.

Danes

Thanks Peasant for clearing that up for me. I agree with much of what you have to say. What saddens me is the inverse snobbery that sometime attaches to pure bred dogs and their owners. What needs to change is the Irish attitude to dogs in general. I meet people who are stunned when they hear that my dogs live in the house, people who think that having their dog (especially male dogs) neutered will ruin their personality - I once homechecked for some people who wouldnt let the dog in the house because they just had new floors down :mad:

If I were in charge of the world, I would have legislation to prevent BYBs and only carefully vetted and licenced breeders would be allowed to breed - and there would be a limit on what price could be charged for a puppy.

It wouldnt be foolproof but if it was enforced to a reasonable degree, would be very effective - look at the anti smoking legislation.

Vegeta

peasant wrote:

But the one cruelty (docking) is so much easier and simpler to end than modern farming methods (which I personally also abhorr and don't support, even though i do eat meat occasionally but only from very select sources)

But coming back to dogs / purebreds ...

It is the same "supermarket mentality" that makes people buy clinically packaged meat, not wanting to know where and how it came from that makes them buy neatly "packaged" and advertised dogs without caring in the slightest about their health or background.

I want THIS, I want it NOW and that is all I choose to care about.

I agree i hate dogs as fashion items.

My main point i suppose is i cant stand people who say "Docking is the worst thing ever, its sooooooo cruel" yet they eat pigs, cows or chickens everyday who are suffering in their thousands on farms. They have no prob drinking milk, using butter or pillows stuffed with real feathers. That pisses me off. Its selective, they hate docking but don't mind other everyday much more common cruelty. You obviously only eat meat from select sources and EGAR is a vegetarian so I applaud you for your efforts.

I am a man of function, i rare, release and hunt my own animals. They enjoy a much higher standard of life than any farm animal (free range obviously different). I do not shoot every animal i release, i do not shoot what i cannot eat. For any normal meat eating person to slag me about hunting i just say, well at least the animals i killed had a much more dignified life than the ones you did.

I had terrible luck with my first 2 hunting dogs, both suffered as a result of not docking them at a young age. I would not willingly put another dog through that ordeal. Sounds like I am damned if i do and damned if i don't.

shinners007

vegata i totally agree with you.

i agree that docking tails is wrong full stop, however as i said before this thread isnt going to be a revolutuon thts gets tail docking banned now is it.
at the end of the day this happens and worse to animals daily.

at the end of the day every one has their own opinions and views on this matter and this should be remebered.

why not have a poll on it and see the results to gat peoples opinions on it?

peasant

shinners007 wrote:

at the end of the day every one has their own opinions and views on this matter and this should be remebered.

why not have a poll on it and see the results to gat peoples opinions on it?

Can the dogs vote as well?

No ?

...thought so ...


How about *remembering* that ?


And shinners ...why no comment on my suggestion earlier?
Hmm?

i agree that docking tails is wrong full stop

yeah right ...and I'm the emperor of China ....


just in case you chose not to *remember* what i'm on about, please allow me to quote myself (from page 2)

peasant wrote:

shinners

As to docking ...here's a simple solution and one first step into the right direction:

On the sale of one of your pups you simply and clearly state in the contract that the dog is only sold on the basis that it will not be docked. Any docking at a later stage will null and void the sale and revert the dog back into your property.

And then you check up every so often.

And if you really cared, then you would try and convince your fellow breedes in the IKC to do the same ...in other words the IKC would just impose a ban on docking all by itself.

That's what a responsible breeder would do.

By just washing your hands of it once the pup is sold your making it too easy for yourself.

Don't leave it up to the great unwashed masses to decide over the fate of your dogs. Most of them are pig ignorant when it comes to dogs. You as a breeder have a responsibility to lead and educate ...at least do it for your own pups if you value them as much as you try to make us believe.

Li'l Irish

You know, the curious thing is there are lots of other animals with specific breeds, but almost nowhere will you find the sheer volume of health problems you do with purebred dogs.

I'm not saying that no other animals have breed specific problems; there's skin cancer and lethal white syndrom in horses, respitory problems in Persian cats, etc. But for the amount of health problems available to draw from, nothing touches canis domesticus. I wonder why?

peasant

My guess would be it's because in most breeds you can go back down the line until about 100 or 150 years ago you end up with the one and only "sire" and about two or three "dams" that started the breed.

And when you follow the line back up again, you will notice that for roughly every decade one "champion sire" dominates over all other possible fathers.

The other reason is that nobody in breeders circles has paid any attention to health, unless it is mentioned specifically in the breed standard.

shinners007

peasant one really cant discuss this with you as you are so pig headed and narrow minded you believe your opinion on the matter is right and that is it.

i dont promote docking tails nor have i ever docked tails as ive said before. if i didnt care i'd just dock my puppys tails now wouldnt i? as for your suggestion this is madness, once a puppy is sold it is not mine anymore, i can only suggest that they dont dockthe tail. your suggestion is madness, i have no right tell some one what to do with their dog nor do you. as their is no ban in place i have no legal right to draw up a contract or say dont dock the tail or ill reposses the animal now do i. so there goes your suggestion great emperor out the window.

i can only simply give advice and information on what i know and have experienced. i sell the puppys with undocked tails, IKC and PB papers, pet insurance i give my contact number answer any questions one might have i then ask the person if they live within a reasonable distance to me can we keep contact to see how the puppys turns out etc, any problems. i also get pictures sent to me via email.

as for tail docking i dont agree with it so take off your crowm emperor and let others state their opinion without being slatted by you, your not the only one with an opinion.

can the dogs vote as well?
no

exactly youve just answered my whole point on this thread dogs cant talk henc as ive said before mine or yours opinion isnt going to change the situation at present.

the owners are deciding just like when they decide to feed their dog, walk their dog, play with dog, worm dog,bath their dog.... oh but wait according to peasant the dog should decide...:D

maybe peasant was a dog in his previous life and still thinks his leader of the pack;)

peasant

shinners

Like any other person you are absolutely entitled to your own opinion.

But since when does sitting on the fence constitute an opinion?

You just do what you need to do to please everybody and not to offend any of your possible customers.

If, as you said before, in your opinion "docking tails is wrong full stop" ...then do something about it.

Or, alternatively, stop referring to this statement as "your opinion" and just call it what it is ...the tune you sing and alter, depending on who's paying for the band.

Now go and multiply a few more dogs.

shinners007

see peasant i didnt hear you defend your patethic solution as above. i wonder why?. maybe because you realise i was right i cant reposses a puppy after a sale. LEGALLY i cannot based on tail docking as it isnt banned see what im saying.

yes of course i wish to please my customers who doesnt?

as for me doing my part i do that by not docking my puppys tails and by encouraging buyers not to dock them either. that is my active role what is exactly that you do to try prevent it other than preach all the time and give suggestions? well?
and please dont give some pathetic answer like i protest regularly, i write articales about it, i dont buy dogs with docked tails etc.. since you like to think your so right about this issue other than preaching how do u stop tailing docking? the answer is you dont because it ISNT BANNED. thats a fact.
all anyone can do is not buy puppys with docked tails. do u not actually agree?

as for multiplying the dogs ya i will, better me breeding my PB boxers than leaving it to the strays or other people intentively breeding cross/inbreeds ok.

quote from peasant below

personally i think that breeding dogs per se isnt wrong at all. after all dogs have to come from somewhere and i'd rather they come from a controlled environment than multiply on the streets.

it appears that since i highlighted your solution you dont no what your trying to say, now contradicating urself. and i wont stop referring to my statements as opinion as that is what they are. unlike you i am open minded and realise people have different opinions on the matter.

peasant

shinners

Of course you can set up conditions in a contract that makes a sale null and void ...you might have to run it past a solicitor first, but it could be done.

Of course you probably would have to give people some or most of their money back and that is a scary prospect.

But I'm done arguing with you, you obviously don't want to understand what this whole discussion is all about. It's not just about docking tails, that's just the tip of the iceberg.

My quote about breeding per se originally goes on with a biiig but ...but once again you refuse to understand that as well.

You've got your own private little victory ...docking isn't banned (yet) in this country ...but heroic you of course is totally against it (with a full stop even!) ...in soundbits, anyway. And as long as it isn't banned that's all you feel you need to do.

And that is it.

That is the sumtotal of your contributions to this topic.

So ...how is you sounding off against docking going to prevent your beloved boxer breed from being bred to death within (probably) the next 20-50 generations or so.

Any thoughts on that for a change?

shinners007

boxers will not be bred to death get real will you, then again your defence is you posted a probably in brackets. now dont be changing the topic keep to the thread.

again you refuse to comment or answer any of my questions above. as it stands im doing more about it than you by selling my puppys with undocked tails. what is it you do?????? my victory isnt that it isnt banned its just a fact. docking wont stop untill a ban is in place peasant that is what im saying.

as for going to a soilictor about it another ridicilious suggestion. you want me to draw up a contract based on tail docking which isnt banned thats stupid. now if a ban were in place this would be an ideal solution to check the dogs new owner doesnt dock the tail. what you dont seem to get is since a ban isnt in place then it isnt illegal to do it hence i have no legal ground to tell dog owners what to with their animals. you are ignoring this point peasant.

now as for me being all heroic etc.. thats bull ur exactly in the same boat as me so dont sarcistacally try to make me out to be someone who doesnt care.(obviuosly i breed PB's and you dont here im reffering to the tail docking of course).
im against tail docking FULL STOP. in previous posts ive said this issue is bigger ie dogs as fashion accessories, cruelty to animals and yet now you dont want to argue and revert to saying a statemnt "this is only a tip of the ice berg"

your not better than any one peasant im doing my bit to reduce tail docking as obviously it takes time. id sure love to now what you do about it being so sincere and such an animal lover and knowing so much..
oh lets wait for it..... you probably did NOTHING!!!! hypocrite:mad:

peasant

boxers will not be bred to death get real will you

Yes they will ...just as any other PB dog, sooner or later. And with the long list of genetic diseases already attached to the boxer, most likely sooner.

Haven't you read EGAR's link?

Well to be fair ...it is difficult reading ...lots of genetics and all that involved ...so hard to understand for the geneticly uninitiated.

Yeah ...probably too much to ask of a breeder, who after all doesn't need to know about genetics.

NOT !!

You, my dear shinners, you most of all people writing in this thread, should be concerned about the general "purebred" issue

Because in a few years time there won't be a healthy boxer left to breed from ...not for love nor money.


Has it sunk in now?


Never mind what I do or don't do ...I do as much as a simple dog owner and dog lover can ...try to inform and convince as many people as I can and make conscious decisions in all matters doggy related.

You, the breeder ...you carry a good part of the responsibilty for the current sad state of affairs.

But ahhh ...isn't ignorance just bliss ....

Because you don't seem to be bothered at all ....

shinners007

and once again you go off topic and cant defend your opinion.

i do more than you actively in the prevention of tail docking.

as for the genetic problem itll be more than 20 years before the problem arises so get your facts right as a breedr i do and always will no more than a simple self centered dog owner.

EGAR

Shinners, I have to bud in here again. PB breeding IS close breeding as all dogs of the same breed come from the same genetic source, ie the same breeding pair! Also, LINE breeding is inbreeding and most if not all PB dogs especially in the KCs around the world are linebred. And they all paddle at the shallow end of the gen pool by now, as genetic diseases show.

As for the 20 years, even if that is true, it is hardly a responsible approach of someone who breeds dogs.

Also, I have noticed that alot of breeders haven't got the foggiest, when it comes to genetics. They breed *champion lines*, they don't care whether or not the bitch and dog are genetically compatible.

Sarah

EGAR

shinners007 wrote:

as a breedr i do and always will no more than a simple self centered dog owner.

Was that a Freudian Slip?

Sarah

peasant

shouldn't think so, Sarah

Let's just hope that many, many "simple self centred potential dog owners" read this ...

...and learn ...

... before they buy any of shinner's (or any other "breeders' " of her ilk) "produce"

shinners007

i said a self centered dog owner was referring to peasant actually.
then in comes sarah butting in his defence as he atill hasnt answered my questions up above?

as for genetics my dogs are compatible and have been screened and are perfectly healthy hence i breed them.
to the issue of 20 years it will be more than that before boxer breeds die as peasnt stated that is a fact.

again the issue of breeding PB versus mongrels breeding on the streets comes up. looks like ye cant admit ive covered every angle of this argument hence yer trying to now change the topic and focus on me as a breeder and boxers genetics.

typical of ye. again im doing more to prevent docking than ye, rather than mouthing bull all the time i sell healthy popular puppies with undocked tails.
ive never had any problems after sales nor have my boxers ever been ill. again i no my limit and wouldnt consider expending my breeding as i said in earlier posts. and as for potential boxer buyers they'll decide who they buy from and if it was me they'd be guaranteed satisfaction on viewing my boxers there half acre run, houses, obstcales courses and most importantly meeting me.:p

and not to worry i didnt post here to get potential buyers i have waiting list that i cant supply at present so i think ill be a breeder for another while yet.

any way im out now have said enough on this matter it isnt banned hence itll continue to happen.

over to you peasant let the leader of the pack back to barking his bull ****.

EGAR

I did not butt in at his defense, allow me to have my very own opinion . Yeah, you go on selling *popular puppies* because that's what it's all about, isn't it? That was a shot in your own foot and a show of true colour, my dear.

And when you run out of arguments, you resort to abuse. Let's hope your dogs are more even tempered than that or they might end up im my rescue .

Sarah

eiretamicha

Shinners,

You most certainly can create a contract that states your dogs' tails will not be docked after purchase at any time during their lives. It's a contract--if people want your dogs bad enough, they will sign it, and then it's binding.

As I was a veterinary technician for quite a few years, I, unfortunately, had to work quite closely with many breeders. Some seemingly more knowlegeable and caring than others. The decent ones made sure that their animals were not mutilated in any way, shape, or form by enforcing above-said contract(s).

You can do it. You just don't want to.

Melissa

shinners007

how dare you my dogs would never be tossed aside, i aint the one who goes looking for free dogs of breeders now am i.

and yes you did butt in as you said in your post so go read it again.:rolleyes:

and yes my puppies are popular and i take pride in that so yes it does show my true colours thank you very much:D . once again you like peasant remain going off the topic who now has ran out of argument or opinion on tail docking sure isnt me....:p

EGAR

Thank you for reinforcing what I wrote earlier . Free dogs of breeders, did I miss something?

Jules

people people people, order please.... i started this thread to open up ppls eyes not to be turned into a childish slagging match.... everyones opinions are valued and noted and if people have differing opinions well so be it, lets try and be grown up here.

im my opinion i agree with peasant and the group on that stand point which is why i started they thread......

and shinners since when is DNA testing available for breeds to check that they are compatable?????

eiretamicha

shinners007 wrote:

how dare you my dogs would never be tossed aside, i aint the one who goes looking for free dogs of breeders now am i.

and yes you did butt in as you said in your post so go read it again.:rolleyes:

and yes my puppies are popular and i take pride in that so yes it does show my true colours thank you very much:D . once again you like peasant remain going off the topic who now has ran out of argument or opinion on tail docking sure isnt me....:p

Wow. This is actually quite comical. I cannot believe you just said that rescues are only out to get free purebred dogs. That has to be the most moronic statement I've ever read. Ever. In my whole entire life.

EGAR

Jules80, childish slagging match? Not from my side, I am serious about everything I posted.

shinners007

ya and so am i.

and i didnt say anyone who rescues dogs trys to get free PB's again all this is off topic. i just said sarah does which she said on another thread also buys horses from breeders whats the difference eh?

now back to the thread please.

Jules

i wasnt pointing the finger at anyone in particular, just making an observation!!!!!!! as i have stated i believe the majority of ppl posting on this thread have spoken(yes i know its not actually spoken but ya know what i mean) well and gotten their point across..... i did say majority not all!!!!!

and are you not gonna answer my question shinners????

shinners007

oh ya and melissa why create a create solely on ones belist that tail docking is wrong and it isnt actually banned if you what im saying. as it isnt banned by law people still have the choice to dock/not dock the tail even though it is cruel... this is my point.. encourgaing people is one thing creating a contract based on something legal that i and some others think is wrong just doesnt seem right.

even though we think its wrong others think its ok obviously as this is still happening right? freedom of choice does exist and i believe as it isnt banned then this comes down to preference even though some agree/disagree with tail docking.

this argument could go on ages as will tail docking untill it becomes illegal