Pedigree dogs.... whats the point

shinners007

ok jules.

jules by compatiable i was referring to height, weight, bloodlines, markings, temperment,stance, bloodgroup, age etc.. of my sire and dam's. all factors that need to be considered before ever breeding. full health checks, boosters, vaccines etc.. plus i have access to 6geberations of the bloodlines and can retrieve more if necessary.

now can we get back to your topic

EGAR

I have never ever said that I buy dogs from breeders, Shinners. What I did say was that I contacted breeders AFTER their dogs ended up in my rescue. And none, bar an old lady from NI, was interested in what had become of their dogs or offered to help rehome them or take them back .

Yes, I did buy a horse from a breeder albeit not a PB one with papers . I also have 4 more horse and a doneky which are rescues. I do not breed myself and anyone who has hobby horses knows that they cost alot but bring in no money just lots of fun .

peasant

shinners007 wrote:

ok jules.

jules by compatiable i was referring to height, weight, bloodlines, markings, temperment,stance, bloodgroup, age etc.. of my sire and dam's. all factors that need to be considered before ever breeding. full health checks, boosters, vaccines etc.. plus i have access to 6geberations of the bloodlines and can retrieve more if necessary.

Q.E.D.

You haven't got even the slightest idea what we are talking about here.

This is getting tedious ...


now ...try and say it with me

Gee ...

neee..

ticks ..

Yes, Genetics ...that's what we are talking about , Dear

Not the blooming IKC guidelines for breeders.


Sometimes I wonder whether Kennel Clubs should be listed as religious sects ...they've got the indoctrination down to a tee

shinners007

and the leader of the back naws his way back in?

bloodgroups is part of genetics peasant look who no's nothing now. i simply added other factors that needed to be icluded before breeding commences ok.

back in to the corner now like a good doggy:D

shinners007

and the leader of the pack naws his way back in?

bloodgroups is part of genetics peasant look who no's nothing now. i simply added other factors that needed to be icluded before breeding commences ok.

back in to the corner now like a good doggy:D



EGAR:
ok sarah my apologies, its very admirable that you rescue animals. again my apologies for misinterpertationg another thread.

peasant

bloodgroups is part of genetics peasant look who no's nothing now

Yes my dear, you are absolutely right!

bloodgroups is part of genetics

YOU win ... I'm stupid.

Can we get on with it now?

EGAR

No problems, shinners.

So you blood type every dog you breed with including the sire of your choice of course? But you still need to crossmatch them and which lab does that for you and at what cost?

Sarah

peasant

...getting on with it ...

As this thread seems to be drawing quite an audience, it might be worth summarising a few of the main points:

1) A purebred dog is not a "better" dog than a mix or a dog of totally unknown parentage. It is just more expensive to get hold of, which to some people increases its value and the regard in which it is held ...which in turn creates an industry revolving around breeding purebreds.

2) Healthwise a Purebred might in all probability be the worst choice as because of generations of inbreeding these dogs carry a lot of genetic diseases.

3) Some breeds, even if otherwise healthy, are actually bred so that they can't function like a dog should anymore. Some can't breathe, some can't whelp naturally, others can't walk properly, other have constant eye infections, others again have constant back pain. All of them are suffering "by design".

So the question remains ...purebreds, what's the point?

EGAR

Nicely put, peasant. I think whoever read this thread with open eyes and mind will come to the conclusion that there is no point at all.

That said, I am going to bed.

Night .

eiretamicha

shinners007 wrote:

oh ya and melissa why create a create solely on ones belist that tail docking is wrong and it isnt actually banned if you what im saying. as it isnt banned by law people still have the choice to dock/not dock the tail even though it is cruel... this is my point.. encourgaing people is one thing creating a contract based on something legal that i and some others think is wrong just doesnt seem right.

even though we think its wrong others think its ok obviously as this is still happening right? freedom of choice does exist and i believe as it isnt banned then this comes down to preference even though some agree/disagree with tail docking.

this argument could go on ages as will tail docking untill it becomes illegal

Riiiiiiight. Like, I said...you just don't want to. Simple as that.

shinners007

its not about not wanting to melissa its your suggestion to draw up a contract based on opinion rather than the law that makes me wonder that is all.


as for the topic. i believe some PB's are worth the price not all. some breeders are legitate others are not. as for the price issue of PB's well obviuosly theirs a demand otherwise they wouldnt be costing so much so obviously breeders are just meeting the demands out there for PB's.

guess those who demand PB'S as just as much to blame as breeders for the prices, but as for pb's being better than any other dog well thats a seperate issue as all dog owners have breeds they like more/less than others etc...

eiretamicha

shinners007 wrote:

its not about not wanting to melissa its your suggestion to draw up a contract based on opinion rather than the law that makes me wonder that is all.

It has nothing to do with opinion. It has to do with right and wrong. If, as you say, you are morally against tail-docking, then prove it by telling your buyers you will not have it under any circumstances! It is done here all the time! If you truly cared about the well-being of your puppies, you would set such a contract in place and follow through with it. It's quite simple really.

shinners007 wrote:

as for the topic. i believe some PB's are worth the price not all. some breeders are legitate others are not. as for the price issue of PB's well obviuosly theirs a demand otherwise they wouldnt be costing so much so obviously breeders are just meeting the demands out there for PB's.

Worth the price? How can one who says they truly care about animals put a price on its life?? Would you put a price on the life of a child? Your life? Your familys' lives?? It's a ridiculous notion, and one that I truly can't believe any animal-lover would consider.

shinners007 wrote:

guess those who demand PB'S as just as much to blame as breeders for the prices, but as for pb's being better than any other dog well thats a seperate issue as all dog owners have breeds they like more/less than others etc...

Of course the damn buyers are just as much to blame as the sellers! Supply and demand, my friend. It's a capitalist business only out there to benefit HUMANS. Nevermind our companion animals, sure they don't have feelings anyway. :mad:

Jules

nicely put eire.... this is not about price supply and demand, it is about the simple fact that over breeding is a problem and that we are breeding our lovely friends into extinction and as soon as ppl like shinners wake up and see this fact well then we can all try to figure out what to do, and i dont care what you say about matching height, bloodtypes and blood lines it is FACT that if you breed two aminals with the same genetic defect the said defect will get worse... and no amout of check ups will show a genetic defect!!!!!

and again tail docking is simply wrong!!!!! and im not going to agrue the fact futher

shinners007

so jules are you now a vet? are you now saying that for a fact my dogs have the same genetic defects are you?

to melissa ya i believe its wrong but im still thinking about the legality of such contracts ill look into it and see how sound it actually would be. i wont take a stanger opinion on it as fact ill seek legal advice on it.

as for the price of dogs well like hello cats, dogs, birds, horses, grey hounds, cattle, sheep etc.. are bought for a price so the reference to putting a price on a child is bizarre. then again your probably a vegan who never drank milk as a baby or cheese or yoghurts or meat...

breeding dogs is a business as is selling horses, cattle, sheep etc.. anyway i thought we were staicking to the topic as peasant put it...

Arcadian

shinners007 wrote:

breeding dogs is a business.

Any dog (or cat) breeder who has the best interest of their chosen breed at heart will tell you that it's most certainly not a business, not a profitable one anyway. By the time you pay for all the medical specialists to certify your dog as fit (not a just a vet check) as well as routine bitch and puppy checkups, microchips, wormings, vaccinations, food etc, it will actually cost a good breeder money to raise and sell a litter.

shinners007

i do all the above and can tell you for a fact it IS a profitable business, hence the argument about the price of PB's and why they cost so much.

peasant

Shinners

I've got a little homework for you:

This http://siriusdog.com/articles/genetic-health-dogs-bragg.htm is an article from a breeder in Canada.

Even though personally I think his proposed solutions are not drastic enough, as he still clings too much to the overall idea of breed identity and breed separation, there are some pretty good explanations in there of what is currently happening to purebred dogs and some good suggestions about what could be done to change things.

Have a read.

Please !

shinners007

peasant thank you for that it was a great read, very informative.

peasant

I hope that article helped to clear up earlier points about dogs being bred to death, shallow genepool, inbreeding, linebreeding and all that ...

Might be worth distributing at the next IKC dogshow, don't you think?

shinners007

ya it would actually peasant. definately opened up my eyes to the whole breeding/genetic side of things.

thanks again. ill leave the thread now get back to topic

EGAR

I thought that WAS the topic of the thread?

Jules

yes it was the topic of the thread but i think shinners just got side tracked into her own little world, and as for asking if im a vet, no im not but i am a vet nurse so kinda know what im talking about shinners!!!!!! and yes your dog does have genetic defects due to... all together now.... over breeding from such a small gene pool!!!!! they all have them!!!!!!

Jules

Genetic Defects:
Skin tumors:
These are tumors in the skin of the mammary glands and other soft tissue. This problem is more commonly seen in boxers than in any other breed.

Ulcers in the cornea:
This is a common problem boxers have. The problem is usually treated with medication, and it is also necessary to keep the inner and superior eyelids sutured together for two weeks so that a natural wrapping is created which in turn protects the cornea. There are also special types of contact lenses for dogs that serve as a transparent band-aids for the dog's eye.

these are just two of the many genetic defects in boxers, not sayin your dogs have them just say that they are at the genetic level and that your dogs many not be symptomatic!!!!

EGAR

I am still waiting for my answer re blood tests.

Jules

i think u might be waiting awhile!!!!!!

Vegeta

jules80 wrote:

Genetic Defects:
Skin tumors:
These are tumors in the skin of the mammary glands and other soft tissue. This problem is more commonly seen in boxers than in any other breed.

Ulcers in the cornea:
This is a common problem boxers have. The problem is usually treated with medication, and it is also necessary to keep the inner and superior eyelids sutured together for two weeks so that a natural wrapping is created which in turn protects the cornea. There are also special types of contact lenses for dogs that serve as a transparent band-aids for the dog's eye.

these are just two of the many genetic defects in boxers, not sayin your dogs have them just say that they are at the genetic level and that your dogs many not be symptomatic!!!!

Jules, both of these have never happened to shinners dogs, they are very obvious symptoms with physical manifestations. I think he'd know if if his dogs were genetically weak if they were having problems like those. You cant say for certain his dogs have genetic defects, they may be very healthy line. You can say his dogs are prone to defects.

The problem with breeding is that if your dogs carry recessive genes and don't display the symptoms themselves these may become dominant genes in the pups or future litters. I assume blood samples are taken for that and sent to a lab.

A lot of talk here is about pet dogs, I agree i couldn't care less what breed my pet dog is, as long as he is healthy and happy

People seem to forget about working dogs, sniffer dogs, guide dogs, helper dogs, guard dogs, hunting dogs etc. The fact there is that some breeds are better at the tasks than your average dog. Yes it is because they have been bred for the task but the fact still remains that some dogs are better than others at certain tasks. What would you suggest doing with those breeds or how would you replace them.

As well as that genetic selection is done with pretty much every farm animal, cows, horses(the whole stud industry). Do you think a farmer would buy a bull or ram without knowing his genetic traits

peasant

People seem to forget about working dogs, sniffer dogs, guide dogs, helper dogs, guard dogs, hunting dogs etc. The fact there is that some breeds are better at the tasks than your average dog. Yes it is because they have been bred for the task but the fact still remains that some dogs are better than others at certain tasks. What would you suggest doing with those breeds or how would you replace them.

The main difference is, that real working strains are bred for ability, more or less regardless of appearance. This allows animals to breed, which wouldn't otherwise make the cut (because they got the wrong colour, size, etc ...) thus the genepool is kept much bigger and the likelyhood of genetic diseases is reduced.

Once "show" criteria are used for selection then things start to go downhill. If you want a working dog, make sure it's from a working strain and not just a purebred showdog that wasn't deemed good enough for the ring.

As for breeds in other domestic animals ... none of them started off from a "founder group" as small as most dog breeds.
Please also see the article I linked above ...both subjects are very well explained in this.

Vegeta

peasant wrote:

The main difference is, that real working strains are bred for ability, more or less regardless of appearance. This allows animals to breed, which wouldn't otherwise make the cut (because they got the wrong colour, size, etc ...) thus the genepool is kept much bigger and the likelyhood of genetic diseases is reduced.

Once "show" criteria are used for selection then things start to go downhill. If you want a working dog, make sure it's from a working strain and not just a purebred showdog that wasn't deemed good enough for the ring.

As for breeds in other domestic animals ... none of them started off from a "founder group" as small as most dog breeds.
Please also see the article I linked above ...both subjects are very well explained in this.

yeah ok i can accept that, most modern working dogs are indeed bred for ability rather than looks,

Jules

i take it you know shinners dogs, and if so i did state that they might not have it but may still hold the genetic trait for it and you wouldnt know unless u get your dog genetically tested and that doesnt happen now if shinners can prove me wrong and say yes i get my dogs genetically tested there for i know they have no genetic defects i will back down but untill that time i will not, i do not care if your dont is not symptomatic... they can still hold the genetic defect and pass them on to the next litter.,..... bring back up the fact that we are breed our dogs either it be boxers, westies, rotties, or pug to death, and this thread is not about cows or what ever i started it cuz i think we have absolutely no respect for domesticated animals if we can badly breed them, cut off their tails and fix there ears or paint there nails or make them were stupid cloths.... granted some of the proper dog coats are fine and i think very purposful but come on a dog in a dress, getting married, they dogs and should be treated with some respect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Vegeta

jules80 wrote:

and yes your dog does have genetic defects

No you did not say they might not have it you said ^^^^

I don't know shinners no, but i would never come out with a statement like above as it is complete ignorance. Just because you say so his dogs must suffer from genetic weakness, yeah sure :rolleyes:

You cannot know if his dogs have genetic defects. As you said yourself the dogs must be tested and until shinners posts up his blood work, I cant know, you cant know and no one knows if his dogs do have genetic defects. To come out with the statement above is a complete guess on your part and really quite insulting.

You have also glossed over the fact that dogs are also bred for other purposes than being pets. I am sure you hate that blind people have dogs bred to help them, you have no problem with tonnes of drugs entering the country

Why shouldn't i talk about cows, breeding works very well in a lot of farm animals. Do you not care about other animals or does your love for animals only extend to cute little puppies.

Breeding can work, just not in the perverse state it is in for cosmetic purposes.