Pedigree dogs.... whats the point

EGAR

Vegeta wrote:

If its an inherited trait that means someone let two ill-suited dogs mate, is that not bad/ignorant ownership?

No, that's bad breeding, exactly the point I am trying to make

vegeta wrote:

Obviously if the dog is poorly trained or abused then the owner is to blame

Read my posting again *cannot be traced...*.

Vegeta

EGAR wrote:

No, that's bad breeding, exactly the point I am trying to make

.

So if bad breeding takes place who's to blame then??

Vegeta

peasant wrote:

just for ease of discussion:

every breeder also owns his/her dogs
not every owner breeds his her dogs

Can we therefore please agree to call owners owners and breeders breeders?


And then we can get into sub-categories of breeders ...careless multipliers, once-off breeders, hobby breeders, backyard breeders, puppy farmers, IKC reg breeders, etc ...

breeders ownership is implied yes, which is my arguement exactly. If you are saying its bad breeding I am taking it a step further and saying that breeders (as you say youself the owners) are to blame.

What is wrong with saying that???

Were you not saying only a few pages ago that its up to individual breeders to ensure safe breeding occurs.

peasant

vegeta ...you've lost me now ...

Yes, breeders are responsible for breeding, good or bad ...be they IKC reg or not.
But ...the IKC, who you seem to be keen on keeping out of the responsibility-loop, is also responsible for keeping an eye on its registered breeders.
Which it isn't really doing ..at least not from an dog-health point of view. The IKC still adheres strictly to line breeding and champion breeding, which we all know now are the main causes of the current problems.
Furthermore, by clever marketing, the IKC has postioned itself in the minds of the public as a quasi guarantor for "good quality" pups. Buy IKC reg and rest assured ...and pay more

Which isn't a great surprise, really, as the IKC is nothing but an association of certain breeders, regulating themselves and keeping others out of the money-making "champion"-circus ...but certainly NOT a supervising authority for doggy-health.

lightening

Some great arguments put accross here, Shinner, you are very articulate, a big advantage. I have Gundogs, I love my dogs, they are docked. I like them that way, I think they look better. Crusify me for an honest statement.

"So, Mr/Mrs Vegeta ...I see you have applied for a job in our sawmills. To prevent you from possibly experiencing some pain caused by work accidents, I' m sure you don't mind if we cut off three fingers on each hand as a preventative measure, do you"

Never ceases to amaze me how people compare dogs to humans and even their children. You don't get your kids neutered for chr*sts sake. OR get them put down if they bite another kid. They are dogs, not to be compared with kids or other members of the family.

Vegeta

peasant wrote:

vegeta ...you've lost me now ...

Yes, breeders are responsible for breeding, good or bad ...be they IKC reg or not.
But ...the IKC, who you seem to be keen on keeping out of the responsibility-loop, is also responsible for keeping an eye on its registered breeders.
Which it isn't really doing ..at least not from an dog-health point of view. The IKC still adheres strictly to line breeding and champion breeding, which we all know now are the main causes of the current problems.
Furthermore, by clever marketing, the IKC has postioned itself in the minds of the public as a quasi guarantor for "good quality" pups. Buy IKC reg and rest assured ...and pay more

Which isn't a great surprise, really, as the IKC is nothing but an association of certain breeders, regulating themselves and keeping others out of the money-making "champion"-circus ...but certainly NOT a supervising authority for doggy-health.

Look my main point came from the following, EGAR said that some of the young purebred dogs she has taken in before had character flaws or social issues which had nothing to do with ownership/training.

I objected saying that I thought ownership was at fault. The reason i say this is because someone had to own the parents of these pups and they may have let the parents breed irresponsibily. Resulting in young dodgs with dangerous or anti social characters/traits, which EGAR then picks up. I think the initial breeders/owners are to blame.

I didn't bring up the kennel clubs, so my post on the topic was trying to exclude them from the discussion.

Our man in Havana

I have a pedigree Westie - I had planned to breed her once maybe twice before she was to be spayed - this was if a vet agreed she was healthy enough.

We went to the vet as he skin was playing up & had a general check up, now whilst she was healthy enough to breed - we learned that she has genetically bad ears they are all lumpy inside - so we could breed her but that would not have been ethical - Holly was spayed 3 weeks ago now. The vet informed me this problem is down to people not looking into the history of the dogs they breed from properly.

When we were in the uk we had a pedigree German Sheppard - now his pedigree when back for generations & his mother had been imported from Germany from a very good blood line & he was perfect in every way, it does seem to me that the uk kennel club is better run than the Irish one. I do believe that the IKC needs to get more involved & maybe refuse to register badly bred dogs thus making them less valuble???

peasant

lightening wrote:

"So, Mr/Mrs Vegeta ...I see you have applied for a job in our sawmills. To prevent you from possibly experiencing some pain caused by work accidents, I' m sure you don't mind if we cut off three fingers on each hand as a preventative measure, do you"

Never ceases to amaze me how people compare dogs to humans and even their children. You don't get your kids neutered for chr*sts sake. OR get them put down if they bite another kid. They are dogs, not to be compared with kids or other members of the family.

Since this seems to be directed at me ...

Where did I compare dogs to people?
I compared one silly argument to another silly argument to illustrate a point, that's all.

peasant

Bond 007

Good for you for not breeding of your Westie !

Just as a matter of interest ...did your GSD have a sloped backline?
If so, he was most likely a carrier for hip dysplacia ...long bloodline or no long bloodline.

lightening

"How about if the majority of men suddenly decided that women with their little toes removed are more desirable.
Would you cut your daughter's little toes off in order to get her "married off"?"


You are directly comparing dogs with women here. You may spin and twist it whatever way you want, but you are comparing the docking of pups tails here with the amputation of womens digits here.

peasant

lightening wrote:

"How about if the majority of men suddenly decided that women with their little toes removed are more desirable.
Would you cut your daughter's little toes off in order to get her "married off"?"


You are directly comparing dogs with women here. You may spin and twist it whatever way you want, but you are comparing the docking of pups tails here with the amputation of womens digits here.

nope...once again ...showing what a ridiculous practice docking is by means of a ridiculous example.

Say, lightening ...you wouldn't by any chance be shinners007 re-incarnated, now would you?

Anyway ...please stop pulling out these ridiculous quotes, as I will not answer / justify them all over again. They were made to illustrate a point, that's all.

Now, please let's get on with the discussion.

lightening

Well, you certainly put up a good arguement. I would love to have you on my debating team if I had one. At least you agree your examples are ridiculous. Docking is not really that bad after all.

I am not Shinner, honestly. I have Weimaraners.

now all around to my house for lamb and veal and to admire my new leather jacket...

EGAR

Troll?

lightening

I Don't mean to come accross as a troll, I complimented on Peasant on his arguement, some excellent points put accross. Just my opinion, if you dont like it, thats a bummer for you.

Our man in Havana

peasant wrote:

Bond 007

Good for you for not breeding of your Westie !

Just as a matter of interest ...did your GSD have a sloped backline?
If so, he was most likely a carrier for hip dysplacia ...long bloodline or no long bloodline.

Nope he was perfect no hip problems at all - all the breeders dogs were as fit as could be.

peasant

Bond,

Good to hear that there are still some healthy ones out there...

lightening

...so Peasant, I am interested in your choice of PB dog. With your knowledge and all...

I reckon you got a German Sheperd, Huskie or a Collie.


am I right?

peasant

nope ..you're wrong ...I've picked a dog from the shallowest genepool possible, as the modern breed only stems from one kennel and one "founder" male, Bailie of Bothkennar.

Google will supply the rest.

As I said before ...then I didn't know what I know now.

But thankfully, other than being borderline retarded, our dog is otherwise as healthy as could be ...hope she stays this way.

And why is she a bit "slow"?

Because her "grandfather" on her mother's side is also her "great-grandfather" on her father's side.
And said double grandfather has the same dog no less than three times in his parentage.
Add to that several double and triple appearances of the same females down the line...

...and cue the "duelling banjos"

Jules

guys i need help!!!!!! if ya can

i rescued 10 pups that were left into my vet to be pts and if anyone is interested they will be ready in 7 weeks!!!!

they are adorable and the mother is wonderful... wont even go into what they are cuz i have not clue looks like some kinda of collie/shepard/cross breed cross but they are so cute. really need ppls help cuz i told my boss i would take responsibility for rehoming them..... ppl might think better off being pts but i just couldnt do it!!!!!!

so if anyone knows of anyone who wants a puppy please email me on julez22@hotmail.com

long live the crossbreed

shinners007

a ridiclous statement by jules long live the cross breeds, rescuing them is one thing promoting them is another.

now cross breeds are better than PB's is it. i thought a dog was a dog oh ya with a un docked tail of course, so if rescuing one from jules be sure that the tail is undocked otherwise just leave em.

this is as it was a pathethic thread from the start with peasant as usual trying to rule it with his views being the only ones right.

oh ya and sorry im so late him replying was busy with my boxers!!!

now i wont be posting my boxers bloodlines so think what ye like, i payed enough money to get them tested and wont have them displayed to good/bad ridicule from the likes of peasant/jules. on the sale of my puppys this information is passed on. discussion of my boxers in particular is now over.

peasant im not lighting but again in order for you to try maintain control of this thread you resort to petty accusations, this doesnt surprise me.

because of you people are literally "afraid" to join the discussion. well done bright spark:mad: :mad:

Jules

now shinners come on be resaponable this is by no means a pathetic thread as one it has gotten the most replies than any other and i dont think peasant is that bad he just feel very passionate about how he feels and why not promote cross breeds!!!!! you need to do a little growing up shinners i think

i would not ridicule your blood lines or whatever all i asked is that you show me that you know for a fact your boxers are well and you know they are genetically well matched as you said, and as for the docking thing i am highly insulted that you would even make this statement as you know my thoughts on it, if not i will remind you

its a cruel and barbaric practice and should be banned!!!!!

and i never said they were better than PB!!!!!!

shinners007

peasnat has admitted people wont stop buying dogs so the problem will be out there. again this comes down to preference, peasant himself preferred to buy a dog from the shallwest genepool possible.

my point is this peasant preferres any dog now but not PB's jules the same, i prefere boxers as a pet and obviously cos i breed them, vegata has working dogs, lighting weimeranes, etc..

again we all preferre a certain breed of dog this is a fact. this fact creates the demand for PB's and high prices. then this causes somes breeders to breed loads of diffreent dogs while not considering bloodlines etc.. some even cross breed. other breeders breed one breed in a safe environment.

all of this comes down to peoples preference which creates a demand that breeders supply. since this isnt going to change anytime soon tell us all peasant whats to be done eh? other than your ridicilous statement of not buying dogs at all.

what this thread should now be about is advising people to research breeds of dogs before either buying/rescuing them. if buying from breeder buy from a reputable one of experience with only one/two breeds for sale not a puppy mill.
seek to see vet reports, vacine sheets, bloodlines, PB history, xray sheets.
if one want a particular breed which people do they peasant shouldnt be here saying no PB or IKC people should first be informed about dogs then breeds.

Jules

whats this thread is about shinners in informing ppl that purebreeds are over bred, some on puppy mills etc etc and that genetic defects can happen, i have never said you are a bad breeder or have i ever condemed anyone, all i have said that isnt there enough unwanted dogs out there already that are free and ppl can have!!!!!!

i do not agree with docking tails as it is a form of mutilation, dogs are ment to have tails, and ppl who say that working dogs have tails damaged well thats bull you should look after them better!!! i met a boxer with a tail the other day and she was lovely... and im not just gettin at boxers im talking all tail docking is wrong rotties, jrt, boxers dobies all of them!!!! and i have never in my life had a purebreed dog, and will never have unless one needs a good home and needs to be rescued, yes i agree ppl should do proper research into there dogs and breeds etc and know what they are letting themselves in for and i also think that anyone who has a pet weather it be cat/dog, the best of purebreed or the crossiest of cross breeds should have insurance!!!!!!!

so please do not rubbish this thread as it is gettin alot of information across and i think is a good one!!!!!!!

shinners007

now jules i genuinely think its admirable that you rescue dogs and nice you posted to find good homes for them.

the thread has become a bit one sided with people being afraid to comment.

yes peasant is passionate but one should remain open minded.

the argument re PB and cross breds comes down to opinion and the debate will continue i gather.

as i said before tail docking is cruel yet isnt banned hence it will continue. i dont dock my puppies tails yet my boxers ahd docked tails when i bought them this didnt make me not buy them as when i bought them i was more interested in there bloodlines, PB etc.. and thats the truth. at present my boxers are healthy and all puppys sold are healthy i keep in touch. my oldest boxer is 8 never had any problems with her. i no some breeds of boxers have ample problems due to genetic incompatability thats why i think peope should be informed to research breeds before considering gettin a certain typr of dog.

i believe is a brreder is genuine then they can provide a dog with healthy bloodlines when breed correctly and this can be done when the genes are compatiable. however some breeders breed on looks alone trying to clone pups to be like the sire/dam this is wrong.

the ikc dont promote breeding, they maintain by only allowing PB dogs where the bloodinesa re traced to be breed. plus now the problem is breedrs arent IKC's there pups as micro chipping, memebership, registaration is costing them too much now any dog without IKC is a doubtful PB in my opinion.
i advise people who want a PB breed only to buy IKC omly as it is the only way to actually know your dog is PB by tracing the bloodines through the IKC.
if the IKC werent in operation there be more cross breeds sold as PB's then there is at present.

again i think ive said enough on this matter afterall its only one opinion of many, i can only speak about boxers and IKC as a memeber from experience.

peasant

all of this comes down to peoples preference which creates a demand that breeders supply. since this isnt going to change anytime soon tell us all peasant whats to be done eh?

Several things need to be (and could be) done:

1) First and foremost we all (buyers, owners, breeders and the general public)
have to realize and take to our hearts that dogs are not "goods". They are fellow living beings with their own rights. Among those rights are the right to a life free of ill health, pain or physical disfigurement as well as the right to be kept in a suitable environement and in conditions that fulfill their needs.
These rights need to be respected first of all.

2) Following on from that, we all have to realize that 1) overrrides any and all rights that we think we might have when it comes to "wanting" a dog. There is no automatic right to dog ownership, contrary to what many people seem to believe. Equally there is no "right to breed" either. Ownership as well as breeding are a big responsiblilty.

3) If we all acted according to 1) and 2) this would mean that several things would improve:

- the demand for dogs would decrease, as less people would deem themselves fit to provide a good quality life to a dog and would refrain from getting one. Mass production of dogs would come to an end.

- the breeding of unfit for life dogs would come to an end

So, you see, it has nothing to do with "preference", "market forces", "views" or "opinons", or whatever you want to call it. It all boils down to one simple thing:

Total and utter lack of respect for the rights, health and wellbeing of a fellow creature.

Once everybody had this respect, the problem would literally solve itself.

Jules

and i commend you for looking after your boxers well and glad you do not dock the tails of the puppies you sell, maybe it was one of yours i have seen!!!!! but all i wanted for this thread is for ppl to open up their eyes and see that yes overbreeding and irresponsible breeding does occur and that ppl should take responsibility for it!!!!!

i dont think purebreedsare better or worst than cross... a dog is a dog and ye sit is a matter of opinion which you prefere but that is not what this thread is about.... its about a matter of fact, over breeding is making our best friends genetically defective and it needs to be changed!!!!!

Jules

very very well said peasant and i dont think ppl are afraid to post here i think ppl should just be prepaired to have a very passionate discussion!!!!!!

shinners007

you very protective of your thread, now i didnt mean to rubbish it. my apologies. i just feel its very repepitive.

i believe its a great way to advise ppl and sed out information to dog/potential dog owners.

i understand theres plenty of dogs needing homes that are free my point is some people want pure breds where by they can check the bloodlines etc and know what there actually buying.

ppl have the choice to buy/rescue thats up to them. no one should be forced to buy/rescue any animal.

im not saying a boxer with a long tail isnt nice what im saying is as it isnt banned then it will cintinue, as there is a demand for it people will do it anyway. regardless if you think its cruel or me some dont care and thats why it happens. thats all im trying to say.

shinners007

peasant i agree with your post.

ppl should be informed about dogs in general then as a breed.

RESEARCH and knowledge are key factors here.

i agree over breeding dogs is happening and major problems are arising from this. again due to demand.

im speaking for myself and im not over breeding i bred once a year only, i never exceed my 3 boxers, and once they no longer breed i wont be buying any more to continue breeding or anything like that. i only breed them now as there are compatiable and no problems health wise have arisen.
my boxers are pets as well so they wont be tossed aside ever.
i no my limit and i wouldnt breed any other dog just for the money as i no nothing about other breeds and hoe to breed em etc.. plus i wouldnt have the time to care for more than my boxers being honest.

all im trying to say is ive put a lot of time, money, energy and love into caring for and breeding my boxers and somtimes its unfair when ppl assume all breedrs are bad and in it for the money only.

Jules

i agree shinners, but i was just getting at the point of someone saying and im not saying you said but someone saying working dogs should have docked tails, that is rubbish!!!!!!

and i see your point that it can be a bit repetative but that is because the fact is not gettin across to some ppl!!!!!

yeah i am very protective of my thread... you saying something na joking i just think it is someone thing ppl should think about first, ppl get dogs willie nillie and they dont consider their options.....

and again the tail docking thing if breeders stop it and the IKC didnt have it as part of the breed thingie, god cant think of the word, i ment how the perfect speciman looks well then ppl would not do it, so the ikc have it in their power to take a stand again docking which is not in the best interest of the animal!!!!