Saudi Arabia - Religious Tolerance not allowed!

Wibbs

InFront wrote:

I think we have very similiar opinions in some respects.

TBH I wouldn't be that surprised.

Perhaps I am brainswasjed to certain point by living in the west, (a Saudi might suggest) but I dont believe the hostility to the Jews that exists in some administrations is warranted in Islam.

It's a grey area in Islam. There are many passages that would be construed as anti Jewish(anti christian and pagan too) in both the Quran and especially Hadeeth. In the Islamic doomsday scenario. Jesus can't even return til the rocks and trees cry out "there's a Jew behind me oh servant of Allah. Come and kill him"(except some tree that the Jews friend apparently).

Yes, Jews are banned there. That is religious intolerance (in my opinion).

Agreed.

A new bill in Israel banning Muslims from moving into Jewish communities is also racist and intolerant.

Agreed as well, though one seems more a response to a percieved threat(however dubious), while the other has some basis in dogma. The former is easier to repeal.

You have mentioned some very extreme cases, like banning the wearing of a Christian symbol.

Not that extreme and it's any religious symbol that's not Islamic.

I also think that banning similiar religious modes such as Hijab, in France, is religious intolerance.
While I think that Saudi has some serious questions to answer on these issues, they are not alone. Places like Israel and France are answerable too.

There may indeed be a case to answer there. That said in France it's all religious symbols. None get preferential treatment. There's a difference. Again it can be changed in a secular state, if the people want it to change. It's not part of the dogma of the faith. Among Mohammeds last words were "turn the pagans (non-Muslims) out of the Arabian lands". This stuff doesn't come from a vacuum. It was one of the reasons osama binladen got upset oer the first gulf war. The idea that US troops were on holy ground got his back up.

Thats right its done quite well in Turkey too, and its quite strange, I didnt think Hitler thought much of Arabs. It is worrying for Anti Semitism in these places. This is a real issue of religious intolerance in Saudia Arabia, Im glad that you brought it up.

Yeah the mein kampf thing is a bit mad for an Arab to read given the ideas behind it. The other popular tome in some areas is the (false)Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

You also mentioned sad the case of the Saudi girls who died in a fire. Im unfamiliar with the details of that, but from the small bit I remember it does seem to have been an unwarranted tragedy. Very sad for all of the families, and of course I think they should have tried to save them and let God decide after that.

Naturally you like any caring human being would think that. The worrying part is the suggestion that a God would even need to decide any moral issue with them being rescued unveiled.

Nevertheless, Islamic autocracy occurs. I'm talking about not criticising laws that are within the Cairo Agreement (Charter for Human Rights for the guidance of Islamic nations).

I also agree with Schuhart that the inclusion of the Sharia part is part of the problem there.

Anything that is within those parameters, and is decided by the govenrment may be 'crackers' to you, but is valid and lawful to the people who live there.

As I've pointed out many crazy morally corrupt and dodgy laws/mores were considered valid and lawful things in the past. That in itself doesn't make it right. Hell, we burned witches for long enough in Europe. Look there is much in the Arab world that is good and admirable. Crime tends to be low. People are often more charitable, welcoming and friendly among other things. I'm definitely not tarring all with the same brush. Not by a long shot.

Im not sure what you mean by this. Laws change and are amended and new laws are introduced constantly across the Middle East. It is very difficult to speak of the Middle East as one entity when there is a whole spectrum of policies across the region,

Very true.

but even in Iran, laws change and are ameneded frequently. And in that case, it isnt always to the approval of the religious scholars. Im talking about women in sports if you have heard of that disagreement. Ahmedinejad isnt Mr popular with everyone.

Laudable to be sure. I've heard of the women in sports debate. The fact it needs to be debated is a bit strange to my ears if you see what I mean. Now fair play that it is being debated. It does show people are pushing for more freedoms. More power to them. Actually as an aside I think Iran may surprise us yet. A young population that isn't too happy in many quarters with the current status quo.

I have never encountered an Arab, or a Muslim, or indeed anyone from Asia or the Middle East come here and expect things to change or expect everything to be like back at home. Have you?

Actually I have. TBH I'd be surprised if they didn't. How many visitors to another country moan and bitch about how it's not like "back home". That guff is universal.The Irish looking for full Irish breakfasts on thier holidays to the middle of nowhere. Heard it myself once on a trip into the desert in Morrocco. English chick asking a local if they had any bacon for breakfast. The way that lad tried and failed to keep a straight face was priceless. His answer was that if she or her husband found and slaughtered a pig he would be only too happy to cook it. Class.

Yet thats exactly how this thread began. *They dont see life as we do, idiots* attitude.

Again a universal trait.

Do you see the contradiction in your statement?

Oh yeah. I do. Big debate as I've said.

This is where we differ on opinion. I dont think it is best practice to allow the people to make their own misakes.

Weeelllll. Another time we'll get back to that one.

Be it from God, or the family or the community or the state, portection and guidance are valuable things. Laws help contain personal freedom within the parameters of public safety and wellness.

Yes but the advantage of the state over God is the flexibilty over time of the former.

The West places just as much importance on its legislation as does anywhere else. Nobody here looks upon the law and says 'thats a bit dodgy, lets ignore it'. MCD anyone? The law is applied with equal force here, no matter how little sense it makes.

The amount of people who will smoke pot at the weekend throws that one out for a start. There are many other examples.

I dont know any countries in the region that dont amend laws or create new laws on an ongoing basis.

So long as it agrees with Sharia.

Wibbs

Beruthiel wrote:

"Although Saudi Arabia signed the 'UN Covenant for the Elimination of all forms of Discrimination Against Women' (CEDAW) in September 2001, women live as third class citizens here. They are not allowed to drive or to travel without written permission from a male guardian. Women cannot walk alone even in their own neighbourhoods without the fear of being stopped and possibly detained by the Mutawwai'in, the religious police.
There is more discrimination in the workplace. For example, women are discouraged from taking up careers in law, architecture and engineering because they are more likely to be in contact with men.

In the family, roles are very unequal too. Under Saudi law, a man can have up to four wives. He can marry a Christian or a Jew, whilst a Saudi woman can only marry a Muslim. As marriage is regarded as an important bond between two Saudi families, some women will quietly put up with violence and abuse in the home. Unlike her husband, a woman must go to court to prove her case for divorce. If the divorce is granted, she can only keep custody of her children until seven years old for a son, and nine years old for a daughter, and she can only receive maintenance payments from her ex-husband for three months. The lack of money and the limited job opportunities leaves many women destitute and heartbroken.

The time for when women in Saudi Arabia can enjoy full rights as human beings is long overdue!"

The above comments are from a woman living in Saudia Arabia. Perhaps some women are happy to live like that, but I don't for one second think all women living there are happy to have men tell them how they should run their own lives.

That quote is a good example of why no religion should have the control of the state. Most of that has good backing from the Holy books, hence the enforcement by the religious police. Even the term religious police gets my back up. To be fair the job discrimination and the divorce proceedings wouldn't be particularly Islamic.

Zillah

...some are more equal than others...

Schuhart

Putting a slightly different spin on it, religions often depend on the quiescence of women. One possible reason why this quiescence is frequently forthcoming may well be that women appreciate the familiar protections that their faith brings.

For example, Islam probably marked a step forward for Bedouin tribeswomen to the extent that it actually recognised them as deserving equal respect to men, even if that is where it saw equality ending. Taking an example closer to home and in more recent times, recall Alice Glenn TD’s comment that a woman voting for divorce in a constitutional referendum was like a turkey voting for Christmas. A part of religious thought seems to whisper in a woman’s ear ‘You’re doing fine, plus you don’t really want to do dead hard sums or heavy lifting. Where do you think he’s going to be if you say you can look after yourself?’

This article was posted up in a thread on the Islam board, just giving some views from Muslim women which I think reflect this. It is there in the reluctance to face up to some pretty obvious flaws in the outlook of their faith by saying ‘well, I think I’ll pass that question on to Allah’, who as always prefers to cite the Fifth.

On a more positive note, once a dialogue starts it pretty much has to reach its obvious conclusion. Take an average Irish Roman Catholic from 1950 living in [insert name of Irish small town that you have a bias against]. Put him in the middle of his present day Muslim equivalents, and you’ll find they have a lot to share. Our townie might have taken the pledge, so they could even agree on alcohol. Where is that average Irish Roman Catholic now?