Whistling past the graveyard

Schuhart

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

Houses cant collapse like shares and they can only drop in price slowly so its a safe bet to lend money once theres sufficent income/wealth in the economy to repay it even if house prices drop for example by 50%.

I think you are making an important point here. Our booming residential mortgage market in part reflects the lack of imagination and ambition in our banks, who seem to be happy to go with the safe bet. This partly explains why there is a Bank of Scotland(Ireland) and no Bank of Ireland(Scotland).

Schuhart

Schuhart wrote:

This partly explains why there is a Bank of Scotland(Ireland) and no Bank of Ireland(Scotland).

cough!

Schuhart

Bless you.

Indeed, the Irish banks do have interests in UK and AIB even has a Polish subsidiary and still owns a bit of a US bank. I think the point is more that Irish banks are sitting on what they have. Ultmately, they are more likely to be the subject of a takeover than the authors of a takeover. We are seeing Dutch, Danish and UK banks entering the Irish market. What new markets are Irish banks entering? What strategy do they have for selling their arses all over Europe?

Why does this matter? Because the banks are some of the very few significant Irish headquartered enterprises that actually have resources that would allow them to have such a strategy. If they are taken over, and no new Irish enterprises take their place, we end up in an economy that consists of people screwing computers together for Dell and doing their shopping in Tesco. What's particularly wrong with that? Again, that idea that despite being an open economy all of our key strategic decisions will be taken outside the state.

mhenness

Schuhart wrote:

Bless you.

Indeed, the Irish banks do have interests in UK and AIB even has a Polish subsidiary and still owns a bit of a US bank. I think the point is more that Irish banks are sitting on what they have. Ultmately, they are more likely to be the subject of a takeover than the authors of a takeover. We are seeing Dutch, Danish and UK banks entering the Irish market. What new markets are Irish banks entering? What strategy do they have for selling their arses all over Europe?

Why does this matter? Because the banks are some of the very few significant Irish headquartered enterprises that actually have resources that would allow them to have such a strategy. If they are taken over, and no new Irish enterprises take their place, we end up in an economy that consists of people screwing computers together for Dell and doing their shopping in Tesco. What's particularly wrong with that? Again, that idea that despite being an open economy all of our key strategic decisions will be taken outside the state.

Well from the way you are putting things our companies are not doing much strategic decision making anyway! If our banks and corporations did all get bought out maybe there would be more stategic decision making, even if it were not done in Ireland.

Calina

re: comment on IDA not creating so many jobs...

we have near full employment here - who's supposed to work these jobs that the IDA are supposed to be creating? Why should the IDA be concentrating solely on job creation numbers?

Wouldn't it perhaps be interesting if, instead, we marketed IDA expertise to some of the eastern European nations which are suffering a major brain drain and wastage in our direction? Or will the scare mongering "all our jobs are off to Eastern Europe" kill that idea?

I'd prefer to see the emphasis for the IDA to switch to creating indigenous industry, be it manufacturing or services. It's simplistic to suggest in a country with full employment, absorbing 80,000 emigrants a year that we should be measuring their success by job creation figures only.

mhenness

Calina wrote:

re: comment on IDA not creating so many jobs...

we have near full employment here - who's supposed to work these jobs that the IDA are supposed to be creating? Why should the IDA be concentrating solely on job creation numbers?

Wouldn't it perhaps be interesting if, instead, we marketed IDA expertise to some of the eastern European nations which are suffering a major brain drain and wastage in our direction? Or will the scare mongering "all our jobs are off to Eastern Europe" kill that idea?

I'd prefer to see the emphasis for the IDA to switch to creating indigenous industry, be it manufacturing or services. It's simplistic to suggest in a country with full employment, absorbing 80,000 emigrants a year that we should be measuring their success by job creation figures only.

There was an artice in yesterdays papers about the IDA setting an office in China to offer their expertise to the Chinese on how to get more FDI. I think we have a lot of expertise that other countries would be interested in having. In terms of research and FDI there are some states in America that are also very interested in Irelands approach.

Schuhart

mhenness wrote:

Well from the way you are putting things our companies are not doing much strategic decision making anyway! If our banks and corporations did all get bought out maybe there would be more stategic decision making, even if it were not done in Ireland.

I don’t mean to be rude, but I really cannot make much sense out of what you are saying. You may be missing the point of the discussion.

At the end of the day, the contribution of Dell to Ireland’s exports is ultimately determined in Round Rock, Texas. I’m not convinced that Ireland’s exposure to international markets amounts to a hill of beans from that vantage point. It should matter to us, but there seems to be a difficulty in getting some people to even recognise there is an issue.

calina wrote:

I'd prefer to see the emphasis for the IDA to switch to creating indigenous industry, be it manufacturing or services. It's simplistic to suggest in a country with full employment, absorbing 80,000 emigrants a year that we should be measuring their success by job creation figures only.

Indeed. There's absolutely no point in selling ourselves as a tax haven where you can hire Polish workers.

mhenness wrote:

There was an artice in yesterdays papers about the IDA setting an office in China to offer their expertise to the Chinese on how to get more FDI.

If you are referring to this, I’m afraid you are getting it arseways. The purpose of the IDA office is to attract Chinese investments into Ireland, not to assist China in attracting FDI. You seem to be misreading the spin in the press releases saying the IDA office will ‘help’ Chinese firms targeting the European market. The ‘help’ consists of selling Ireland as an investment location.

http://www.shanghaidaily.com/art/2006/07/01/284785/Ireland_eyes_Chinese_investments.htm Ireland eyes Chinese investments
Chen Liying
2006-07-01
IRELAND'S investment and development agency opened its first China office in Shanghai yesterday, stepping up moves to attract more Chinese investments which want to tap the European market.

The office will offer more information to Chinese companies and will also help to lure Chinese investment in the European nation which has only witnessed "very few" Chinese investments there, said Gus Jones, China director of the Investment and Development Agency, Ireland.

Jackie laughlin

Gurgle,
Despite your abuse, I wish you well in your new business. However, please realise that what you are doing is exceptional. Was it Sir Keith Joseph way back under Thatcher who couldn't understand why everyone just couldn't "get on their bikes"?

Incidentally, you became rude when confronted by a fundamental political question which goes to the heart of which policies we choose for the future.

ronbyrne2005

Calina wrote:

re: comment on IDA not creating so many jobs...

we have near full employment here - who's supposed to work these jobs that the IDA are supposed to be creating? Why should the IDA be concentrating solely on job creation numbers?

Wouldn't it perhaps be interesting if, instead, we marketed IDA expertise to some of the eastern European nations which are suffering a major brain drain and wastage in our direction? Or will the scare mongering "all our jobs are off to Eastern Europe" kill that idea?

I'd prefer to see the emphasis for the IDA to switch to creating indigenous industry, be it manufacturing or services. It's simplistic to suggest in a country with full employment, absorbing 80,000 emigrants a year that we should be measuring their success by job creation figures only.

theres been 270k jobs created since 2001 and no net new jobs in ida sector ,the ida sector jobs are usually export orientated and we're better off having 270k extra workers in exports than in building houses and serving latte's.We're losing/not increasing the jobs that actually create wealth which is how the "celtic tiger " was built

mhenness

Schuhart wrote:

I don’t mean to be rude, but I really cannot make much sense out of what you are saying. You may be missing the point of the discussion.

I guess I was being a little sarcastic. I am referring directly to your comment about Irish banks. Your post says that Irish banks are sitting on what they have. This would seem to imply that they are not taking too many strategic decisions in relation to increasing their interests in things outside of the property market here. I do agree that Irish companies need to be more aggressive in terms of winning business abroad and making sure they don't just depend on the Irish economy. They are putting all their eggs in one basket so to speak.

bk

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

sunday times last sunday
Figures from the Industrial Development Authority (IDA) highlight the trend. The authority brought great riches in the early Celtic tiger period. Its achievements in recent years have been slightly underwhelming, however. Employment by IDA companies actually has decreased by almost 9,000 people since 2000. Over the same period, total employment in Ireland has increased by almost 270,000.
sorry when i said most jobs are construction and civil service i was refferring to jobs in last year,60k jobs.

An important thing to remember is that back in 2000 and pretty much since then, we have been at full employment. So I'd assume that the aim of the IDA was not to create lots of new jobs, instead it was to replace any jobs lost due to company closers. They seem to have been very successful at that, they have basically kept things static at almost full employment.

All the new jobs growth since 2000 have been mainly going to foreign emigrants in the areas of construction and low value services.

On the whole this is a good thing, it indicates that the majority of native Irish people continue to be gainfully employed in the high value jobs at multinationals, while we have been bringing in lots of foreigners to work in the low value services jobs and to help in building our underdeveloped housing and infrastructure. The type of work that Irish people just don't want to do any more.

It mightn't sound very nice or be very PC, but it is par of the course for most wealthy, western countries (i.e. Mexicans in the US).

ronbyrne2005

bk wrote:

An important thing to remember is that back in 2000 and pretty much since then, we have been at full employment. So I'd assume that the aim of the IDA was not to create lots of new jobs, instead it was to replace any jobs lost due to company closers. They seem to have been very successful at that, they have basically kept things static at almost full employment.

All the new jobs growth since 2000 have been mainly going to foreign emigrants in the areas of construction and low value services.

On the whole this is a good thing, it indicates that the majority of native Irish people continue to be gainfully employed in the high value jobs at multinationals, while we have been bringing in lots of foreigners to work in the low value services jobs and to help in building our underdeveloped housing and infrastructure. The type of work that Irish people just don't want to do any more.

It mightn't sound very nice or be very PC, but it is par of the course for most wealthy, western countries (i.e. Mexicans in the US).

A country cant stay rich/get richer by building houses and serving lattes! there were nearly 300k jobs created by economy since 2000 and virtually none have been in ida sector which is what made us wealthy in first place! plus only a fraction of the immigrants are in construction contrary to public perception, its never a good thing when what made you rich fails to expand,if half the 300k jobs since 2000 were in ida sector we would be much better set up for sustainable growth.

Gurgle

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Incidentally, you became rude when confronted by a fundamental political question which goes to the heart of which policies we choose for the future.

Apologies for getting rude about it.
Tbh, it irritates me when people make what appear to be unreasonable comparisons between Ireland and other countries.
We do live in one of the most developed countries in the world, we live in a generally well balanced socialist state despite the best efforts of recent governments to drive us closer to the US capitalist model.
The country and its systems certainly aren't perfect but here more than almost anywhere else, every single person has the opportunity to make a decent, stable and comfortable life for themselves.

Over the last 15 years or so, there has been so much foreign investment that you can make a comfortable living as a PAYE sector worker, and I think that that more than anything else is why so few people are taking on the risks of going out on their own.

bk

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

A country cant stay rich/get richer by building houses and serving lattes! there were nearly 300k jobs created by economy since 2000 and virtually none have been in ida sector which is what made us wealthy in first place! plus only a fraction of the immigrants are in construction contrary to public perception, its never a good thing when what made you rich fails to expand,if half the 300k jobs since 2000 were in ida sector we would be much better set up for sustainable growth.

But then that would be creating jobs for foreign immigrants, not for native Irish people, who are already in full employment.

I actually agree we should be creating better jobs for some of these highly educated foreign immigrants. However IMO we should first be doing everything possible to improve the education for Irish people who are stuck in more menial jobs, so that they can get higher jobs also.

However the point I was trying to make, is that this is certainly no indicator that the economy is failing, which is what some people were trying to get out of this piece of information.

Jackie laughlin

Gurgle,
I've done really well in life. I'm fortunate but I just don't recognise the Ireland you describe. I wish we lived in such egalitarian decency. I wish that everyone was reasonably secure and had a good PAYE job. I wouldn't worry too much about enterprise. Some people will always want to go into their own business while others will be creative in their employment. The problem is that Ireland is one of the world's richest but most unequal societies. I can see the deprivation, the lack of ambition, the lack of a cultured life. OK, it's a couple of years since I met someone who was actually hungry. I've certainly met people with no or poor housing. I also know lots who might be able to manage a sun holiday but who don't have much of a life.

bk

Jackie laughlin wrote:

The problem is that Ireland is one of the world's richest but most unequal societies. I can see the deprivation, the lack of ambition, the lack of a cultured life. OK, it's a couple of years since I met someone who was actually hungry. I've certainly met people with no or poor housing. I also know lots who might be able to manage a sun holiday but who don't have much of a life.

I have to disagree, personally I consider poverty to be when you can't get the following:

1) Food
2) Accommodation of some sort (not necessarily owned)
3) Decent health care
4) Good education (with the ability to improve one self with it).

I don't see any true poverty of this sort in Ireland today (outside the exception of persons suffering from addiction).

Being able to go on a sun holiday each year is certainly not poverty, no one has a right to things like owning your own home, car, fancy holidays, mobiles, etc. If you want these things then you have to work to get them, get a good education, get a better job etc.

The majority of the world lies in true poverty, they struggle daily to put food on the table and often die from easily curable diseases and have little hope of education.

I would argue that even in comparison to other rich countries, Ireland has a pretty good (if not perfect) balance in equality between rich and poor. For instance the US is far, far worse, it is shocking to see just how many beggars are on US streets.

अधिनायक

Schuhart wrote:

It is just our continuing dependence on foreign firms is a strategic weakness that needs to be addressed.

I agree with this. We are making good income and taxation revenue from the IT, pharma and fin services companies, but there is little high value strategic work going on. A lot of the IFSC work is settlements. A lot of IT is regional operations and localisation.

We need a better educated workforce, or incentives to encourage more high skilled English speaking immigrants, such as lower income taxes. It is a pity that so much of out wealth is being thrown into housing and consumer goods.

bk

अधिनाय&#2325 wrote:

A lot of the IFSC work is settlements. A lot of IT is regional operations and localisation.

I don't know about the IFSC, but I do know about IT. While it may have been true a few years ago, it certainly isn't true today. Many of the major multinational IT companies have intensive and large scale R&D work going on in Ireland.

One example that comes to mind is IBM, who have a major R&D lab here in Ireland. I'll readily admit it is more D then R, but still world class work.

Also another example is the number of small Irish mobile software companies that have sprung up in Cork from the Motorola factory down there. Which brings up an important point. The multinationals often give staff in Ireland exposure to top class R&D experience, experience that some Irish staff then take with them when they go and set up there own company. And often these small startup companies maintain good links with their former employeers, who often become investors and customers of the fledgling companies.

This is usually how new business startup, well in IT anyway, they rarely setup in isolation, that is one reason why multinationals are so importnat.

अधिनायक

We have three Irish tech companies that I can think of on the NASDAQ: Iona, Trintech and SkillSoft. In pharmaceuticals, there's Trinty Biotech and ICON. The two big banks have some decent overseas operations and there's a handful of other successful international companies like Ryanair and CRH.

Israel has 71 NASDAQ listed companies.

You're right that the presence of the multinationals here really helps startups but I don't see that many succeeding yet.

bk

अधिनाय&#2325 wrote:

Israel has 71 NASDAQ listed companies.

That is a very good point, but wonder how much that has to do with "War is the mother of invention."

Most of Israel's high tech industry is heavily involved in the weapons industry. For instance, when Israel buys fighter planes from the US, they only buy the air frame and engines, they install their own designed and manufactured avionics and weapon systems, which are world renowned and many would argue better then the US.

Being in a constant war tends to focus minds, I believe Israeli industry has greatly benefited from this. As has the need to develop their own industries and jobs as many multinationals are too afraid to set up there due to the problems there.

ArthurDent

अधिनाय&#2325 wrote:

You're right that the presence of the multinationals here really helps startups but I don't see that many succeeding yet.

bk wrote:

The multinationals often give staff in Ireland exposure to top class R&D experience, experience that some Irish staff then take with them when they go and set up there own company. And often these small startup companies maintain good links with their former employeers, who often become investors and customers of the fledgling companies.

This is usually how new business startup, well in IT anyway, they rarely setup in isolation, that is one reason why multinationals are so importnat.

Well in the Pharma / biopharma arena the following SMEs (all successful) have been set up by ex-elan employees
Bioclin http://www.bioclinlabs.com/
Athpharma http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2095-1902774,00.html
Sigmoid Biotechnologies http://sigmoidbiotech.com/
Merrion Pharmaceutical http://www.merrionpharma.com/news.shtml
AGI Therapeutics http://www.agitherapeutics.com/aginews.html
Pharmaplaz http://www.pharmaplaz.com/

The first being a service provider and the last 5 all doing R&D.

Schuhart

Its great that some individuals are setting up companies, because thats what we need to see. But I think its important not to see the efforts of a few as grounds for complacency. Our prosperity depends on our ability to export and, right now, the overwhleming bulk of our exports are generated by non-Irish firms. The job isnt finished until that reality changes and that reality wont change if we seek to ignore it.

mhenness

There is no question that the money being spent on research has to deliver by increasing the chances that we can create more multimillion and multi billion euro companies through producing innovative services and products.

Jackie laughlin

No. Poverty is not absolute. It is relative.

However, even in absolute terms. Ireland fails to provide decent housing, healthcare and education for all citizens.

mhenness

Jackie laughlin wrote:

No. Poverty is not absolute. It is relative.

However, even in absolute terms. Ireland fails to provide decent housing, healthcare and education for all citizens.

True. Do you have any figures on what proportion of the population does not have access to good housing, healthcare and education? Do you know how this compares to other countries in the EU?

Gurgle

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Ireland fails to provide decent housing, healthcare and education for all citizens.

Housing:
In my experience, council houses even council flats are usually built to an excellent size and standard. Sure in many cases, especially the older developments, they're not pretty, but they are not meant to be pretty. If the government was spending double the money to give nice brick facades and paved driveways there would be absolute uproar.

The wreckage the occupants often live in is entirely their own doing.

Healthcare:
We have an extensive and well developed healthcare system. Its problem is that its overburdened, due to wasteful spending, poor management and self-serving unions. Despite this, if you need treatment you go to a hospital and you will get it.

Education:
Ireland has an excellent education system, one of the best in the world. I firmly believe the blame for those who leave the school system illiterate and / or inumerate lies with the family and the individual. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. There is a place available for every child to go to primary and secondary schools which they are legally obliged to attend until they are 16. Busses are provided, even financial help with books etc. but if a kid doesn't show up, its up to the parents/guardians to do something about it. Now we have truancy officers to take on even this responsibility because so many parents just couldn't be bothered even attempting to raise their own children.

Jackie laughlin

Gurgle,
I think that poor people should have houses that are "pretty". I'm sure there are cases of people wrecking their own homes but it's a rarity. There are problem people on housing estates and the state has to protect and encourage their ordinary neighbours. In practice what is happening is that SF/IRA are being allowed provide "security".

If you present yourself at A and E in the Dublin region, you certainly will not get adequate care and attention.

I deplore the neglect of children which does indeed take place. Firstly, there must be intervention properly to educate the children of parents who don't value education. Secondly, could I appeal to you to think about the position of a parent who has hopes, dreams and ambitions for a child who has no choice but to attend a dysfunctional school.

Gurgle

Jackie laughlin wrote:

I'm sure there are cases of people wrecking their own homes but it's a rarity.

I have been inside council houses and flats, new and old in Dublin other parts of the country and they certainly are built to a good standard, size and finish.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

If you present yourself at A and E in the Dublin region, you certainly will not get adequate care and attention.

Yes you will, but you will wait for it and you won't be waiting in comfort.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Firstly, there must be intervention properly to educate the children of parents who don't value education.

Yes there should be and there is. The state takes responsibility for the care, upbringing and education of the children but leaves them living with dysfunctional, often alcoholic or drug-addicted parents out of respect for the mythical 'family unit'.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Secondly, could I appeal to you to think about the position of a parent who has hopes, dreams and ambitions for a child who has no choice but to attend a dysfunctional school.

Education begins in the home, and is primarily the responsibility of the parents. There are always other options. For example I know several children now and when I was growing up who are/were home-schooled, for a few months to 6 years because the schools or teachers weren't what they should have been.

Again, while I agree that Ireland falls far short of Utopia, I honestly believe that we are as close to it as any other nation. (This is not singing the praises of the current government, its the result of decades of work by a small minority of civil servants)

Jackie laughlin

Gurgle,
My experience of council houses is that they are fine. However, YOU spoke of people living in wreckage of their own making.

I think good and adequate medical care rules out long waits in discomfort.

A lack of commitment to education is not confined to drug addled parents. Many devoted parents do not value education. The state must intervene aggressively in the interests of the children.

Are you really proposing taking thousands of children into care?

Home schooling is not an option for the majority of people who must reluctantly send their kids to dysfunctional schools. Most parents would not be able to do this or would not have the time.

Jackie laughlin

It's time to return to this aptly titled thread.

Faced with truly scary information from the Central Statistics Office, our Taoiseach concluded, "The boom times just got boomer".