Training for Dublin Marathon - help\advice

--amadeus--

bullrunner wrote:

ok..heres my training plan

2 days a week run 11-13 km in fast times (try to run around 4.30-4.45 min/km pace)

at weekend do 1 long slow run and increase distance by about 2-3 km each week...currently at 20 km

I really reccomend you look at http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/news/article.asp?UAN=813#scheds

They have lots of schedules based on your target time. I'm no expert but my concern with your plan is that is quite light. Most plans expect you to run at least 4 - 5 times per week rather than just 3. Long runs sound good - adding 3 kms per week gets you up to around 21 miles in 5 weeks, just before your taper starts, which would be ideal.

As a comparison my schedule for the next 3 weeks is:

speed session / 9miles slow / 5M fast / 5m easy / 13 mile steady
speed session / 8m slow / 9m steady / 5m easy / 20 mile
speed session / 9m / 5m fast / 3m easy / half marathon @ race speed

At the end of teh day though it all depends on what you want from it, how many you've run and how much time you have to spend training!

Clum

bullrunner wrote:

ok..heres my training plan

2 days a week run 11-13 km in fast times (try to run around 4.30-4.45 min/km pace)

at weekend do 1 long slow run and increase distance by about 2-3 km each week...currently at 20 km

I only ran 3 days a week when I trained for a marathon too. No tempo or speed training, just short and long runs. It's the bare minimum and I just about did it. Always said that if I was to run another marathon I'd do some serious training, 4 or 5 days a week, to ensure I didn't struggle as much and get a decent time.

I made up my own training schedule back then but, agreeing with Amadeus, probably best to follow an offical training plan.

bullrunner

the big problem i have is that i just dont have the time to run 4-5 days a week...so i need to maximise what i do to get the best results...as best i can see i am...but if anybody else has a better training plan than mine for the number of days i can run then i'd be happy to hear it?

tx

Odysseus

bullrunner wrote:

the big problem i have is that i just dont have the time to run 4-5 days a week...so i need to maximise what i do to get the best results...as best i can see i am...but if anybody else has a better training plan than mine for the number of days i can run then i'd be happy to hear it?

tx

I have the same problem, I live in Louth and commute to work in Dublin, which takes up a lot of my running time. When I am training, I gererally get two 12k runs in during my lunch times, and a long run on the weekend, which varies depending on the distance I'm training for. With saying that I still done Longford at the weekend in 3.40, nothing special but still happy with it. Best of luck with it.

--amadeus--

You were just ahead of me so - I came home in 3:44 in Longford. Hoping to go sub 3:30 in Dublin now, <insert fingers crossed smiley!>

Bullrunner - I suppose the thing about the marathon compared to other distances is that you really will get out what you put in. You can complete marathons on 3 runs a week, some people even run fast marathons on three runs a week but it will depend on how much experience you have and how many years you've been running.

For Dublin 05 I was having to get up at 6am to fit in my runs and I know of people who get up at 5am and others who are running at 9 & 10 at night - I really can't tsress enough that if you want to have a marathon expereince that is in any way not-unpleasent I would try and get in an extra day or two of running (it's only for a couple of months).

If you absolutley can't then cross training is highly reccomended - I know of triathletes who run 3 days a week but swim & cycle and so cover marathons on the back of that training. If you can only train for 3 days a week then I would suggest 1 * tempo run of 5 - 7 miles, 1 steady (marathon pace) run building to 12 miles and 1 long run per week.

Have you got a time target? Whats your running / excercise background?

jasonb

I'm doing the marathon for the first ( and last ) time too! Only started jogging in April, and I'm now up to 5 times a week. This week I'm doing...

Tues : 4m ( 6.5k )
Wed : 4m
Thur : 4m
Sat : 4m
Sun : 13m ( 21k )

Over the next 8 weeks, the 4m runs alternate between 4 miles and 3 x 1 mile timed runs, with a couple of 5m thrown in. The 13 m run on the Sundays will vary, with 8, 10, half-marathon, 13, 20, 10 over the next few weeks.

Did my first 10 mile at the Frank Duffy race, and got 1:27. If I can do the half-marathon in 2 hours, then I think I've a chance of beating my target time of 4:30 for the marathon.

Even though I'm doing 5 days a week, the fact that I only started jogging at all in April, and the fact that most of the runs are fairly short, means that I know I'll find the big day hard. I could have gone with a bigger training plan with longer runs, and therefore find the marathon easier, but I couldn't give up anymore time for training. 5 days a week is tough enough as it is, my social life has gone out the window!

Sometimes think I'm mad doing a marathon only 10 weeks after my first ever 10 miler...

J.

bullrunner

--amadeus-- wrote:

If you absolutley can't then cross training is highly reccomended - I know of triathletes who run 3 days a week but swim & cycle and so cover marathons on the back of that training. If you can only train for 3 days a week then I would suggest 1 * tempo run of 5 - 7 miles, 1 steady (marathon pace) run building to 12 miles and 1 long run per week.

Have you got a time target? Whats your running / excercise background?

My target time is around 4 hours (under but not over!)

have done a bit of running in the last few years...did 5/10/ half last year (1.42 for half) and 5 (around 34 mins) this year (missed 10 due to other commitments)

so hopefully should be fit enough come race day for a 4hour time

quozl

jasonb wrote:

I'm doing the marathon for the first ( and last ) time too! Only started jogging in April, and I'm now up to 5 times a week. This week I'm doing...

Tues : 4m ( 6.5k )
Wed : 4m
Thur : 4m
Sat : 4m
Sun : 13m ( 21k )

Jasonb, if you can replace one of those weekly mid-week 4 milers with a semi-long run I'd expect that help your endurance. Something like 50% of your long run. Most of the marathon schedules I've seen have at least 1 other semi-long run a week to reinforce the adaptations you're trying to get with your long run. Plus it doesn't really add that much time to your schedule as you already have to get changed, shower etc that day anyway. You're just adding on the time for the extra miles

jasonb

Hi Quozl,

That's good advice, thanks! Definitely have a feeling that getting a couple more miles into my legs wouldn't be a bad idea. And it's getting harder to get into those 4 mile runs, they just seem a bit boring now, and not challenging. My Wednesday runs are going to be speed runs from now on ( 1 mile on, 5 mins rest x 3 etc. etc. ) but I could definitely turn the Thursday run into a longer one, like you said maybe 50% of my long run ( say 6-8 miles depending ).

I did my first 13 mile run yesterday, and was quite happy with it. Stuck to 9 minute miles for the whole thing, and finished it in 1:56:17. Legs felt a bit shaky for the last mile, but heart and lungs were fine. So I really think getting more mileage into the legs would be a good thing.

That said, all I'm taking on my runs right now it water. Any idea what'd be a good way to get some energy into me as well, during the run I mean? Should I be looking at Gatorade or something like that, or even just a Mars Bar? Let me know your thoughts, thanks!

J.

quozl

Jasonb, check out
http://www.runworks.com/calculator.html
and
http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/rununiv/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm

If you put your Frank Duffy 10 mile time into that it'll give you recommended training paces. I think you're running your long run a good bit too fast. I use Daniels vdot tables for training paces. You might be better off doing you long runs around 10:00 instead of 9:00. You get the same adaptations and you're less likely to injure yourself.

As for energy I'll be using High5 energy gels during the marathon, so i tried them out on my 17 mile run yesterday. There's about 4/5th of a mile worth of calories in each one I figure, so if I get 4 or 5 into me in the marathon that's a big help.

I'm a bit wary about using them much in my long runs except for that test run. I don't want to weaken the stimulus to increase glycogen storage that the long runs are meant to be providing.

I went with high5 because I could get some to try out first in a cycle shop on south william street, they have electrolytes and no caffeine (personal preferrence). I took the last 3 though :P

jasonb

Thanks again Quozl,

I'm planning to move to 10 minute miles once I get past the Half-Marathon race in 3 weeks time. 10 minute miles are my planned pace for the Marathon itself. Part of me would love to do the marathon in less than 4 hours ( and 9 min miles would come in at 3:54 ), but realistically I think I've much more of a chance doing less than 4:30. That's 26 10 min miles, with 10 min for the last few yards!

Thanks also for the High5 Gels, I'll give them a look at see what they're like! Definitely need to get some energy into me for the long runs, but like you said, I don't want to mess about too much either, as I don't want my body getting used to getting energy into it! Definitely use something for my 20 mile run though...

J.

quozl

I'm in almost the exact same boat. 83:20 in the Frank Duffy says that maybe I can do sub 4 but my brain and the precarious state of my legs says 4:30 is the better idea. I'm going to save sub 4 for Paris in april

Do be careful with training at race pace. Conventional wisdom (Daniels, Pfitzinger, McMillan, pretty much everybody I think) is that the majority of your training should be slower than race pace, and then a small proportion should be at, or even slightly faster than it.

I'll be doing the half-marathon as the last 13.1 miles of my first ever 20 mile training run. Figure it'll make it less painful, though the time I get in the half will hurt a bit

jasonb

So you're going to run 6.9 miles, and then the 13.1 as part of the race? That's mad, and it'll be tough! How are you going to time things so that you get to the start line at about the right time? I presume your aim is to get there maybe a few minutes after everyone else has started? Hopefully the start won't be delayed like the 10 mile one was, or you'll find yourself stopping in the middle of your run, waiting for the main race to start!

J.

quozl

Heh, i'm going to run the half-marathon at my long run pace. So I'll have some company, extra motivation and water stations for my first 20 miler So 6.9 easy miles beforehand then into the half. I swapped a 15 mile run for the frank duffy 10 miler+warmup mile/cooldown mile, but I really don't want to give up a 20 mile run.

Even if I'm walking around waiting for it to start for 10 minutes, I figure if I'm not eating it's all still time on my feet which can only add to the training effect at the end of the 20 miles. Hopefully so anyway!

I won't be finishing that far ahead of them closing the race course I'd bet

jasonb

Sounds like you've got it planned out, nice one!

I'm feeling a lot more confident about the half-marathon now that I've already done a 13 mile run. Though that hill two miles from the end has me worried, that was tough in the 10 miler!

Back running today after the 13 miles on Sunday, nice to have yesterday off! Only 4 miles so while my legs are still a little sore, I should be ok.

J.

StaggerLee

Hi All,

Glad to see i'm not the only one torturing myself with marathon training. I ran the Frank Duffy in 1:25 a couple of weeks ago. I was hoping to run the marathon in around 4 hours but I am starting to rethink.

I did a 17 mile long run last week, it went OK, I was fairly drained after it, I had 1 energy gel en route, think I needed a bit more.

Problem is, since the 17 miler I have been wrecked, I have been finding my short runs to be really tough, usually I would enjoy them, and cover some sections at a fast pace, instead each one was a real slog.

Yesterday i attempted a 14 mile(I've done this2-3 times in the last couple of months) run as my long run for the week. Basically my legs gave in on me, from the ankles up! I started out, my ankles were aching, then my knees. I kept stopping and starting again... basically i had no energy in me legs. I cut the run down to a 10 mile, walk/Jog( I couldnt stop altogether, I was running home from work)

I'm at a loss now, was thinking of taking a few days off, hopefully yesterday was just one of those days. Anyone else have similar experiences?

quozl

If I had to guess I'd say you should give yourself a few easy recovery days. With low mileage all at a easy pace. If you don't feel better after that then you should probably see a physio. I'd be surprised though, you're probably just not used to it. I know I amn't

Are you eating properly? Plenty of carbs to make sure you're not ending up in a glycogen depleted state as a norm? Plenty of sleep?

My long run on sunday has done something similar to me. I'm a knob and ran the first half too fast, even though I know I shouldn't. Energy wise I feel fine, but my slightly longer leg seems to have taken a good kicking from the big toe up to the hip ) I'm trying to find a local sports masseur and going to cut back slightly on the mileage. I don't want to miss the 18 miler this weekend.

jasonb

Personally, I always take the next day off after a long run ( 8 miles or more ). That way I get up to 48 hours off for my legs to recover. I've read somewhere that the rest periods are just as important as the running, as the muscles get time to recover and grow stronger.

So I'd advise you to take a day or two off, and then see how you feel. It might mean you missing a run or two, but I'd rather miss a couple of 4-6 mile runs, and be ok, then keep on pushing it and make things worse, you know? If after a couple of days off you're still feeling sore, then I'd quozl's advice and look for a physio. If you haven't already, you should get your gait analysed to make sure your shoes are doing their job ( there's another thread here that recommend a shoe store to go to in Bray ).

I've got a 13 mile run for the weekend after the half-marathon, and then my first ( and only ) 20 mile run the weekend after that ( 3 weeks before the marathon ). I'm tempted to turn that 13 mile run into a another 20 miler, to help with my stamina, and to practice my marathon pace a bit more. Am I mad? Thoughts please!

J.

StaggerLee

I've had a Gait analysis done, i have the right shoes. Reckon I'll just put the feet up for a couple of days

I think you should trhow in the 2nd 20 mile run. There are at least 2 18-22 mile runs in all schedule I have been looking at.

jasonb

It is tempting ( in a scary way! ) to make one of those 13 milers a 20 mile. I'll have a think about it for a while.

By the way, any ideas ( maybe you quozl ) where I can get some of those High5 gels? I'd like to try them out, just to see what they taste like etc. Thanks!

Jason.

quozl

No idea jasonb. The cycling shop on st william street was out of them. I'm planning on buying some on-line but the .ie supplier isn't responding to emails and the uk supplier wants 25 sterling delivery!

I may have to bite the bullet and pay the ridiculous delivery fees if I can't find a better option

You could consider turning one of your 13 mile runs into an 18 mile run if the 20 seems too daunting. Less chance of injuring yourself and according to Hal Higdon "Most coaches agree that above 17-19 miles is where the true training benefits start to kick in." I've read similar from other coaches but that's the first one I could find.

I'd suggest practicing your marathon pace on your shorter/medium runs not on long runs at distances you've never done before. Sounds a bit too risky. Though my main worry is injuring myself and messing up my training or stopping myself racing. You may be braver/madder

copacetic

jasonb wrote:

It is tempting ( in a scary way! ) to make one of those 13 milers a 20 mile. I'll have a think about it for a while.

By the way, any ideas ( maybe you quozl ) where I can get some of those High5 gels? I'd like to try them out, just to see what they taste like etc. Thanks!

Jason.

i have gotten them from cycle superstore in tallaght..

jasonb

Thanks Davym, I'll drop in the next time I've driving through Tallaght! Assuming quozl doesn't nick them first!

Like you said quozl, I was also thinking of making the 13 mile run just a little longer, to maybe 18 miles, like you said, instead of going straight to the 20.

I remember you posted earlier that conventional wisdom says that you should train at slower than race pace. To be honest, I don't see what this does for you. I'd hate to train at a certain pace for a race, and then start the race faster. I imagine ( maybe incorrectly ), that I'd quickly feel like I was pushing myself more than I'm used to, and I reckon I'd get tired sooner than planned.

Common sense to me seems to be to train at the pace you're going to run at, so that you're used to it? Or am I missing something? What does training at a slower pace gain you? At the moment, all my training ( apart from speed work ), is at 9 min miles, which is my half-marathon pace. Once the half-marathon is out of the way ( only 2 and a half weeks left! ), then I'll go to my marathon pace ( 10 min miles ) for the rest of my training. Part of me would still love to give the sub 4 hr marathon a go ( so I'd have to run at 9:08 minute miles ) but I really need to get that idea out of my head, and be happy with a sub 4:30 marathon!

J.

quozl

jasonb check out
http://www.pfitzinger.com/marathontraining.shtml

The section on long runs explains it well. You run near enough to your marathon pace that get the same effects but without the same dangers. Pfitzinger is probably at the more aggressive range of suggested paces.

I don't think you need worry about running training at one pace and having trouble running your race pace as long as you trained sufficently close. I did most of my training for the frank duffy at 10:00 to 10:15 and raced it at 8:20. (well 8:20 is my idea of raced!)

You can always do some reptition work, striders, marathon pace runs as well as a proportion of your total mileage. I'm pretty much just concentrating on uping my easy mileage safely as I've not been running very long and I've got a big aerobic base to be building

I'm also far from an expert on this I just find it interesting and enjoy reading up on it.

jasonb

Cool, I'll read up on that. I'm trying to find a balance between being a newbie runner, who only started in April and plans to stop in November, and someone who likes to do things to the best of their ability!

harrier

jasonb wrote:

plans to stop in November...

The way you're describing your training I don't think you're going to have much difficulty with that!

The body needs a long time to adjust safely to the rigours of long distance running. Noakes (Lore of Running) reports research that concluded non-runners require a programme of 24 weeks walking before starting a marathon running schedule. Otherwise they got injured training for or doing the marathon. Not many people would accept that advice though.

One of the dangers of long hard training is that the workload builds up. You won't necessarily recognise the signals from your body that it's working harder than it's able to until too close to the race.

I've run for a few years and have a couple of reasonable marathon finish times. The first one was after a painful and foolhardy programme where I stuffed in long runs close to race pace and longer than my body was ready for. I managed few mid-week runs because I was too tired and sore from the weekend long runs. I got to the start line tired and uncomfortable and had to stop a few times along the way to stretch out sore muscles. I was tired at the end and sore for weeks afterwards.

Second time around I was a bit more patient. The Pfitzinger book (mentioned by qozl, essentially written by Scott Douglas) gave good advice and I structured a programme based on that guidance but with many less miles than suggested. Whenever tired or sore I did less miles than planned. Almost all training was way slower than race pace with a few long intervals close to planned race pace. (I also swam in a pretty cold river at the end of every long run to ease the inflammation in my legs.) I got to the start line fresh and prepared. I ran half an hour faster than the first time and ten minutes faster than my planned finish time. Of course I was tired afterwards but I was a lot less sore in the following days and weeks and a whole lot happier.

My advice - do less more often, do it slower and be very patient.

jasonb

Good advice Harrier...

It's very tempting to add in a few miles here and there, just to get a few more into my legs. But like you said, that could be false profits.

Considering the tapering off my training is doing in the weeks leading up to the Marathon ( I go from 34 to 24 to 18 to 9 miles in the 4 weeks leading up to it ), I'm hoping that I'll still be fresh on the race day!

I'm aware that I'm going into this marathon with too little training. I probably won't be the only one! While I only started jogging in April, I did a 6 week walk / run programme before that, and I actively play a lot of sports, so wasn't coming in completely unfit. But I know that jogging is different, and the body needs time to get used to it.

I'm thinking I might just stick to the original plan I got online, and not kill myself too much. The marathon will be tough no matter what, but hopefully I can do it, and enjoy it ( well, some of it anyhow! )

J.

StaggerLee

Hi All,

Just seen this on Runnersworld - they're talking about carbloading during training and during the race...


Also, be sure to carbo-load during the marathon. No matter how well you’ve followed this practice beforehand, your leg muscles are eventually going to run low on glycogen during the race. To avoid this, try to drink five or six mouthfuls of a carbohydrate drink 15 minutes before the start of the marathon and every 15 minutes during the run. This is something you should practise regularly throughout training

I was going to use a couple of energy gels, washed down with water during the race itself, do these provide carbs?

quozl

that's basically what energy gels are. Carbs in goo form, with some electrolytes thrown in in most cases.

Check the nutritional information on your gels. I like the high5 ones, but before I found those I found some dodgey looking make with taurine (red bulls active ingredient) and a complete A-Zinc of vitamins. They looked more like somebodies bright marketing idea than energy gels really.

jasonb

There will also be three Gatorade Stations during the marathon, giving the Gatorade 'Thirst Quencher' range, which also provide Carbs and Electrolytes...

Got a problem. Ran an 8 mile on Monday, and had a rest day Tuesday. Woke up early Wed with bad back pain. The best way I can describe it is if I was lying on my stomach, and someone had been standing in the middle of my back, therefore pushing my spine in towards my ribcage. After being up for a couple of hours, walking around in work etc., I was fine again, and I just thought I'd slept funny or something.

However, it was the exact same Thursday morning, and this morning. Really bad pain ( that wakes me up ) and the only way I can ease it is to sit up and bend over so that I'm resting my elbows on my knees. Once again, it's fine after a couple of hours.

Really don't know what this is. It's not my bed, as I slept in the spare bed last night just to check that. It doesn't seem to be a muscle pull or anything like that, as I'd imagine that I'd have the pain all the time, not just after sleeping. I'm not even certain that it's from the running ( though it's the likely candidate ) as I had no pain on Tues morning after an 8 mile run, but pain on Wed morning after a rest day.

Any suggestions please? Should I go see a physio about my running, or could this be something else. Slightly worried that the running is doing this, and I can't go through the next 7 weeks of waking up very early with bad back pain, just to do the marathon!

J.