Somme Stamp

murphaph

Somme Stamp

I am personally very happy the way anglo-irish relations have improved dramatically over the past number of decades, due to both our countries maturing I feel. Anyway, the above stamp may be small but it's a huge gesture from an Irish state agency to recognise our british past and pay homage to the brave men who fought in the trenches in 1916.

What do others feel? Is it as significant as I make out or is it perhaps mre significant that an Irish stamp can be issued which features british soldiers displaying bravery and nobody here bats an eyelid?

I think that's the real victory, our relationship with the UK has cme on leaps and bounds. Imagine them issuing this stamp in 1986 :eek:

RedPlanet

I think it's an attractive stamp.
I'm wondering would they issue some IRA war of independence ones, may be nice for collecting.

silverharp

mixed feelings I'm afraid,

1) WW1 was the biggest folly where the individual soldier was akin to cannon fodder, in hindsight anyone who signed up was a fool. Remember the dead as a lesson for the future, but commerating "bravery" in such a war , I dunno.

2) without getting into 800 years blah blah blah, but I can't imagine that the Dutch have stamps commerating their citizens that fought "bravely" in the SS


Maybe if it was part of a bigger range including the US Civil War, Spanish civil war etc.

Flex

Mixed feelings too. They may have been fighting for the British army, but they believed they were fighting (paradoxically) for Ireland's freedom when they enlisted to fight in the 1st World War. At the same time, most of the soldiers the 3rd Reich recruited in occupied countries in western Europe figured by enlisting in the German army that they were fighting the 'good fight' to defeat bolshevism or whatever, yet they (I presume) dont have stamps commemorating them in their countries.

LovelyHurling

Flex wrote:

At the same time, most of the soldiers the 3rd Reich recruited in occupied countries in western Europe ... yet they (I presume) dont have stamps commemorating them in their countries.

With respect... why would there be stamps commemorating people who fought for the 3rd Reich? That is a completely differennt issue. I would have no problem in commemorating people who fought on either side of the Somme but the 3rd reich...:eek:

Same for whoever mentioned the SS, that has nothing to do with this.

I agree with you OP, it is about time this happened. The men who fought in WWI were misled and lied to, but they were not fools. They were incredibly brave men who believed they were doing the right thing. Many were patriotic Irishmen who fought for a number of reasons that have been well documented in the history books. Whatever their motives, men on both sides deserve our utmost respect. 'Lions led by donkeys' is a term that sticks with many people and these dead Irishmen have had their suffering and bravery swept under the carpet for far too long. I agree that this signifys the continuous strengthening of the Anglo-Irish friendship.

Morlar

That just reminds me of this :

http://www.shotatdawn.org.uk/page24.html

Which I think everyone looking at that stamp should have a read of.

A Dub in Glasgo

It is part of Irish history that needs to be remembered but let us remember it for the stupidity it was and the pathetic waste of human life by the imperial masters. You will be hard pushed to find a bigger case of lemmings to the slaughter.

This is a more fitting tribute to the men who died.

murphaph

Yes it goes without saying of course that all the men fighting for King, Kaiser and Tsar were all used as pawns in an imperialists game. Their bravery however cannot be questioned and it's the official rememberance of our irish lads who went to war that I think is long overdue.

The stamp adresses in a small way a huge and very sad part of our collective european history.

LovelyHurling

Hopefully the next logical step might be to have some public men brave enough to wear the poppy as a mark of respect to this very noteworthy group of Irishmen

A Dub in Glasgo

White poppy? or do you mean the British Legion poppy?

ScottishDanny

My 2 Cents
If folk want to commemorate the tragic waste of human life at the Somme or 'An Somme' (Yes there's a translation As gaeilge - who knew :rolleyes: ) thats fine but have a look at the stamp. It says nothing about the 36th (or 16th) Divisions, theres nothing Irish about it except the aforementioned translation.
To me it looks like a pic from the war comics I used to read as a kid. Typical of the war artists of the time - "Come on Tommy, last one to Berlin is a rotten egg!"
Was there any consultation on this? Are there any plans to commemorate the dozens of poor sods who were executed for cowardice or the other 'event' of that year?
IMO if you are going to commemorate something as brutal as the Somme do it right. That pic looks like the lads were having a great time. I reckon the last episode of Blackadder 4 did it nicely by showing how sad and stupid it was.

murphaph

The image used is actually of the 36th (Ulster) Division. The image is taken from a famous painting of the time. It should be viewed in this context; sure, we all know the futility of the war but at the time the men went off merrily to fight in it. That image is clearly from the summertime, before the misery of the realities of soggy trench warfare hit home to the lads. I certainly don't look at the stamp and say "wow, looks fun" or whatever. Once we see the word "Somme", we know exactly how miserable it all turned out for our lads.

ScottishDanny

So the stamp actually commemorates soldiers recruited from the original UVF of 1912? Now available from the Arch-Symbol of Irish Republicanism - the GPO.
I reckon I know my history but you have to admit its a bit confusing, how would this message get through to say tourists (the likely purchasers of a 75c stamp)?

100th post woo hoo!

silverharp

Ye keep using the word brave, I reserve that word for people like police, firefighters etc who put their lives on the line beyond the call of duty without a gun pointed at them to make them carry out their duty. Using the word brave for a bunch of 16-18 year olds who like all 16 year olds thought they were invincible and who were caught up in the “madness of crowds” is just hyperbole. Again remember this event as a tragedy and as a caution for the future for the power of the state to destroy the individual, a better stamp would be a line of white crosses.

All empires are at best a folly and are to a greater or lesser extent “evil” , I see no huge difference between the British empire and the Third Reich, both basically had the same objectives, the only difference were degrees of savagery at the margin. The British troops that humiliated my grandparents going about their business during the Anglo Irish war was not a million miles away from say the Dutch experience from 1940-1945. So to my mind a significant number of Irish people will always be ambivalent to honouring anything that has a british uniform involved.

ScottishDanny

a better stamp would be a line of white crosses

Well said.

So there they were - the 36th Ulster Division fighting in the British Army to keep Ulster British, side by side with the 16th Irish Division fighting in the British Army to guarantee Irish Home Rule, on behalf of neutral Belgium in France against the Germans.

Simple isn't it?

murphaph

Indeed, and he confusing reasons for irishmen, both green and orange were replicated right across Europe in fact.

As for the stamp commemorating a particular division, I don't think it does. They just picked a 'good' image that was well known. In any case, the 10th and 16th did fight alongside the 36th at times and of course there were more than just purely UVF members in the 36th, there were also Donegal/Cavan irish nationalists etc. The point really isn't to get mired in the detail the stamp is not a tribute to war or to empires, but to the ordinary joes who were blown to bits on the battlefield.

If we can commemorate other events of the time then we should remember this episode which killed so many.

fly_agaric

The Somme was a big battle where alot of Irishmen (people born on this Island) died unnecessarily.

An Post is commemorating this with a stamp (which is fair enough IMO).

Can we leave all the rights and wrongs of the history, the British and the IRA etc to one side and keep these two simple facts in mind?

I'm not saying forget the history, just try not to let it influence the present too much.

Leave it to NI - they are usually much better (worse) at that stuff than "we" (well, this is a .ie website...) are.

Dyr

LovelyHurling wrote:

why would there be stamps commemorating people who fought for the 3rd Reich? That is a completely differennt issue. I would have no problem in commemorating people who fought on either side of the Somme but the 3rd reich...:eek:

Same for whoever mentioned the SS, that has nothing to do with this.

I.

Hasnt it? Let's see, the flemish, walloon's, finnish, croats etc who joined the SS joined the army of an empire which at the time was in control of their country. They mostly joined because they felt it was in their people's best interest's to fight for that empire or it's ideal's. So, how is that different from the irish who joined the armies of the British empire?

Because the third reich commited atrocities? So did the british Empire.
Because the third reich ran Concentration Camp's? So did the British Empire. Because the third reich believed in racial superiority? So did the British Empire.

Or because the third reich lost perhaps?

lostexpectation

UVF is to stand down at Somme commemoration

Exclusive
19 February 2006

UVF chiefs are to use this year's emotive 90th anniversary of the Battle of Somme commemorations in France to announce it is standing down as a paramilitary group.


http://www.sundaylife.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=679842

Sand

I can't imagine that the Dutch have stamps commerating their citizens that fought "bravely" in the SS

At the same time, most of the soldiers the 3rd Reich....

The Somme was in WW1, not WW2. The Irishmen involved fought (mostly) in the British Army, not the SS. FYI.

And people thought I was exaggerating when I claimed Provos would lecture death camp survivors about real oppression....

I reckon I know my history but you have to admit its a bit confusing, how would this message get through to say tourists (the likely purchasers of a 75c stamp)?

Possibly they wouldnt give a flying feck? Would they even know? Why would they care? Its to commemorate the Irishmen who fought at the Somme - Provos claim that the UVF are actually Irish, so its up to them to iron out the stupidities in their views.

You will be hard pushed to find a bigger case of lemmings to the slaughter.

1916 Rising? Hmmm, wasnt really that pushed tbh.

So there they were - the 36th Ulster Division fighting in the British Army to keep Ulster British, side by side with the 16th Irish Division fighting in the British Army to guarantee Irish Home Rule, on behalf of neutral Belgium in France against the Germans.

My god, two or more groups of people from the island of Ireland with differing political aspirations. Its all too complicated to comprehend.

UVF chiefs are to use this year's emotive 90th anniversary of the Battle of Somme commemorations in France to announce it is standing down as a paramilitary group.

Well, the paramilitary angle has long been a sideline to the serious business of drug dealing and organised crime anyway.

lostexpectation

Sand wrote:

Well, the paramilitary angle has long been a sideline to the serious business of drug dealing and organised crime anyway.

and beating 'darkies' too it seems

murphaph

Bambi wrote:

Hasnt it? Let's see, the flemish, walloon's, finnish, croats etc who joined the SS joined the army of an empire which at the time was in control of their country. They mostly joined because they felt it was in their people's best interest's to fight for that empire or it's ideal's. So, how is that different from the irish who joined the armies of the British empire?

It's different because although the germans were in control of the places you mention, those places were not actually part of Germany. On the other hand, we were part of the United Kingdom and had been for well over a hundred years at that stage. It was our army (officially at least!-don't want to get into a provo debate on this thread).

If you ever have time, take a look at the plaque on the wall on Platform 4 at Connolly Station. It reads;

IN MEMORY OF THE FOLLOWING MEMBERS OF THE STAFF OF THE GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY (IRELAND), WHO LAID DOWN THEIR LIVES FOR THEIR COUNTRY IN THE GREAT WAR, 1914 – 1918.
[names]

ALSO THE FOLLOWING WHO MADE THE SUPREME SACRIFICE IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR 1939 – 1945
[names]

LovelyHurling

Bambi wrote:

Because the third reich commited atrocities? So did the british Empire.
Because the third reich ran Concentration Camp's? So did the British Empire. Because the third reich believed in racial superiority? So did the British Empire.

Or because the third reich lost perhaps?

The British leaders who got the entire British Isles caught up ina war with the Germans may have been proud nationals show me where they felt they were a master race? For Gods sake there is no comparing Adolf Hitler and co. to Henry Asquith and co. If you are honestly making that comparison then you are downplaying the war crimes of Nazi Germany. No modern British leaders were comparable to Nazis. Why on earth are people bringing up the 3rd reich in relation to the Battle of the Somme?

Dyr

murphaph wrote:

It's different because although the germans were in control of the places you mention, those places were not actually part of Germany. On the other hand, we were part of the United Kingdom and had been for well over a hundred years at that stage. It was our army (officially at least!-don't want to get into a provo debate on this thread).

Sounds like pedantic straw clutching but lets follow the logic, In world war 2 many europeans joined the German armed forces although their country was not a part of germany, however their country was a part of the german reich. In world war 2 Irish men joined the british army although our country was never part of Great Britain, however we were a part of the british empire. Same difference to me


Lovelyhurling, Are you saying that the British back then did not consider themselves racially superior to their subjects in the empire? Anyway, the comparison is not between nazis and Asquith. It's between the Irish men who served in the British army and Belgians who served in the SS. You think that is an inaccurate analogy, i think it's very valid.

BTW am i the only person who finds it odd that the people who make all the noise about commerating the Irish men who died serving the British army don't seem to have any interest in remembering the Irish men who died fighting for/in america on memorial day?

Here's an idea, instead of tagging along with the UK and only remembering the irish men who died fighting for queen and country (which country that is i've no idea) why not have a day to remember ALL irish people who gave their lives in conflicts? I guess thats what Bertie is lining easter up for though

A Dub in Glasgo

Sand wrote:

1916 Rising? Hmmm, wasnt really that pushed tbh.

Must try harder, the rising is not even in the same galaxy as the killing of millions in WW1. The rising is a bigger case of lemmings to the slaughter than WW1?.. interesting interpretation of history.

A Dub in Glasgo

Bambi wrote:

BTW am i the only person who finds it odd that the people who make all the noise about commerating the Irish men who died serving the British army don't seem to have any interest in remembering the Irish men who died fighting for/in america on memorial day?

or even the people who died fighting for, dare I say it, Irish independence. No, wait until there are millions of lemmings fighting for imperial powers and then we can talk about commemoration and respect.

murphaph

Bambi wrote:

Sounds like pedantic straw clutching but lets follow the logic, In world war 2 many europeans joined the German armed forces although their country was not a part of germany, however their country was a part of the german reich. In world war 2 Irish men joined the british army although our country was never part of Great Britain, however we were a part of the british empire. Same difference to me

The original comparison you drew (the one I took issue with) was between Belgians joining the SS from '39 to '45 and irishmen fighting in the army of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland from 1914 to 1918. I merely pointed out to you that the comparison was invalid as the army of the UK was our own at the time as we were still a part of that country between 1914 and '18. You have now switched to comparing belgians fighting in WWII to irishmen fighting in WWII which is completely different as we were neutral during WWII, having seceeded from the UK some 20 odd years before that war broke out.

Bambi wrote:

BTW am i the only person who finds it odd that the people who make all the noise about commerating the Irish men who died serving the British army don't seem to have any interest in remembering the Irish men who died fighting for/in america on memorial day?

It's topical. The stamp has just been released. I always find arguments about what various posters aren't saying to be diversionary

Bambi wrote:

Here's an idea, instead of tagging along with the UK and only remembering the irish men who died fighting for queen and country (which country that is i've no idea) why not have a day to remember ALL irish people who gave their lives in conflicts? I guess thats what Bertie is lining easter up for though

I've no issues with that at all. Many men and women died in many wars and insurrections down the years. I'm not glorifying or commemorating them solely because they fought or King & country, but because it was a senseless and tragic episode in our history.

LovelyHurling

Bambi wrote:

Lovelyhurling, Are you saying that the British back then did not consider themselves racially superior to their subjects in the empire? Anyway, the comparison is not between nazis and Asquith. It's between the Irish men who served in the British army and Belgians who served in the SS. You think that is an inaccurate analogy, i think it's very valid.

You keep bringing WWII into this so i dont even know what you mean by 'back then'. Nationalist (there is no British 'race') superiority was not the major cause of Britain entering WWI and was certainly not why they fought the Nazis in 39.

Belgians who served in the SS? They were Nazis and shouldnt be commemorate as such. Same for anyone who fought for the Nazis, not because they were beaten, but because they were wrong. Sorry if you dont understand that.

If youre just here to go on about the UK why dont you start a thread about it, this is about dead Irishmen who fought in the Somme

Personally I think the worst problem that Ireland faces is always looking to the past. Whether its the famine, rebellions, civil war etc. Irish people tend to look to the past all too often. This sounds like just another reason not to move on with things.

As just stamps, I have no problem with this. However when people start placing a deeper meaning on them, thats when I get worried. Maybe you're all stamp-collectors, who sit around in the pub discussing what images are in your stamp collection, and the deeper meaning behind them. However I seriously doubt many people will even be aware. I know I very rarely look at the images on the stamps, prior to slapping them on the envelope.

ScottishDanny

Back to the OP
So does anyone like this stamp?
The Royal Mail recently brought out stamps to commemorate England's Ashes win over Australia - apparently they were really popular in Scotland/Wales/NI :rolleyes:
Maybe An Post should issue a commemorative stamp for the standing down of the UVF?
FTR the first World War was a dirty land grab between European Imperialists on the pretext of the Austro-Hungarian Emperor getting shot by a Serbian nationalist. The Tsar, Kaiser and King of England were all first cousins after all. I sympathise with the 'Lions led by Donkeys' but I don't think it should be glorified.

silverharp

The way I look at it, British history isn’t my history, being Irish and catholic in 1916 was akin to being black in South Africa until the 1990’s, whatever about the legal niceties of it, it was an occupation by a foreign power where the natives didn’t get a look in. The fact that there wasn’t conscription in Ireland as opposed to Scotland or Wales is telling that the Irish situation was different.
Maybe in a 100 years time British history in Ireland will be akin to Roman or Norman history in Britain, when nobody is around that can remember hearing about the events first hand.
I could be wrong but I’m guessing that in African American circles there is a point of view that says that US history was “done” to them but they were not a part of it until the middle of the 20th century, I’m sure black South Africa doesn’t get too excited about the Boer war, even though many probably died in it.

Irish people died in the US civil war (both sides) ,WW1,the Spanish Civil War, WW2 , all deserve to be remembered, otherwise if these little token steps are being taken for political reasons then fine, I don’t object, I just don’t especially care.

Re the comments that there is no valid comparisons between the third Reich and the British Empire all I can say is that there is little difference between being persecuted by a democracy as opposed to a fascist or communist state. Yes the 3rd Reich was worse if you were Russian or Jwish , but broadly comparable to the Polish or Dutch experience.