Somme Stamp

Lemming

silverharp wrote:

The way I look at it, British history isn’t my history,

And people make critiscms that Irish history is not taught inside the British education system, and that they are not educated on at least the basic premises of what happened in Ireland under their rule?

What you've just said is no different to a British person saying why should they bother with Irish history since it's not their history. Both nations histories are closely intertwined whether you or anyone else wants to accept that little piece of reality or not. To be ignorant of one is to be ignorant of current events that affect both in the here and now.

silverharp

Lemming wrote:

And people make critiscms that Irish history is not taught inside the British education system, and that they are not educated on at least the basic premises of what happened in Ireland under their rule?

What you've just said is no different to a British person saying why should they bother with Irish history since it's not their history. Both nations histories are closely intertwined whether you or anyone else wants to accept that little piece of reality or not. To be ignorant of one is to be ignorant of current events that affect both in the here and now.

You miss my point, I'm not saying blank it out or whitewash it, just that from my point of view the Irish experience of being part of the empire has very little in common with say the Scottish or Welsh experience.

Dyr

murphaph wrote:

The original comparison you drew (the one I took issue with) was between Belgians joining the SS from '39 to '45 and irishmen fighting in the army of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland from 1914 to 1918. I merely pointed out to you that the comparison was invalid as the army of the UK was our own at the time as we were still a part of that country between 1914 and '18. You have now switched to comparing belgians fighting in WWII to irishmen fighting in WWII which is completely different as we were neutral during WWII, having seceeded from the UK some 20 odd years before that war

broke out.

yep i typed World War 2 and meant World War 1 mea culpa

I think the difference here is hair splittng but let's follow the logic and take a further trip down the road marked pedantry As far as I'm aware there was and is no such army as "the army of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland" The British army has always been referred to as the British army/armed force's or as belonging to the crown. No reference to Ireland or the United kingdom, they served "king and country" not "king and kingdom".

I feel Irish men in WWI were in a similar to position to Belgians etc who joined the heer during the german occupation, they joined what was the defacto armed forces of their then government, it was "their own" army by default. The german military and whatever puppet government they installed in these countries made the german armed force's the legitimate service for that country. The only real difference is timescale.

Incidentally i dont have any major problem with the stamp..it looks quite nice but one commerating the irish men who fought for Mexico would be even better

ScottishDanny

Incidentally i dont have any major problem with the stamp..it looks quite nice but one commerating the irish men who fought for Mexico would be even better

Viva La San Patricios!

Lemming

I think that I am going to point out that anyone banging on about Nazi's at this point has well and truly invoked Godwin's law and lost their arguments by default.

If you don't understand what I'm saying, google Godwin's law.

silverharp

Lemming wrote:

I think that I am going to point out that anyone banging on about Nazi's at this point has well and truly invoked Godwin's law and lost their arguments by default.

If you don't understand what I'm saying, google Godwin's law.

Very good, learn something every day, however given that we are talking about war/armies/empires, I don't think this counts ;-)

Ok lets change the example, how about the battle of Waterloo, did we win or did the British win, in no sense did "we" win it in my opinion, a Scots or a Welsh person might say "we" won it, but 99% of non ascendancy Irish would say the British won it.

Dyr

Lemming wrote:

I think that I am going to point out that anyone banging on about Nazi's at this point has well and truly invoked Godwin's law and lost their arguments by default.

If you don't understand what I'm saying, google Godwin's law.

Nazi's? I think the subject was foreign members of the waffen SS and the wehrmacht, not the Nazi party, I'm not even sure these people could have joined the nazi party. Not that i could give a flying fu..eh circus about Godwins law.

Incidentally the polish experience of WW2 was probably worse than any other countries, not better. I think 1 in 5 poles died in that period, the germans really gave them an awful time.

LovelyHurling

Nazis, World war II, The Wehrmacht... Bambi you havent mentioned the Battle of the Somme once here nor said much about World War One at all. You seem to be drawing comparisons from a different war over 20 years later on the basis that they have a similar name.

murphaph

Bambi wrote:

yep i typed World War 2 and meant World War 1 mea culpa

No worries.

Bambi wrote:

I think the difference here is hair splittng but let's follow the logic and take a further trip down the road marked pedantry As far as I'm aware there was and is no such army as "the army of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland" The British army has always been referred to as the British army/armed force's or as belonging to the crown. No reference to Ireland or the United kingdom, they served "king and country" not "king and kingdom".

You're right-it is and always has been the 'British Army'. Of course, if we're being pedantic, Ireland is part of the British Isles Anyway, the country in 'King and country' would be the UK. The UK comprised (at the time) two full formerly separate kingdoms-Ireland and Great Britain.

Sand

I was going to write a longer reply but thh a lot of the responses are just another example of MOPE, Most Oppressed People Ever. Not worth the effort and a waste of my time.

At the end of the day, the stamp is introduced. The Irishmen, regardless of the political or religious persuasions are commemorated, and if it pisses off barstool Provos - well, thats just a bonus.

joebhoy1916

A stamp for the Somme

Ian will be happy.

samb

joebhoy1916 wrote:

A stamp for the Somme

Ian will be happy.

Why will Ian be happy. He likes to think of Eire as backward and intolerant, that unionists would be discriminated against in a united Ireland. Commemorating thousands of Irish people that died in an tragic event (not in a celebratory way) would seem like a mature, tolerant thing to do. Sectarians like Ian thrive on an enemy that must also be sectarian-this why his party and SF are so popular in Northern Ireland at present-they thrive on mutual hatred.

ScottishDanny

Nazi's? I think the subject was foreign members of the waffen SS and the wehrmacht, not the Nazi party, I'm not even sure these people could have joined the nazi party.

The Waffen SS were set up as Hitler's elite bodyguard and were ALL Nazi fanatics (unlike most of the regular Wehrmacht).
Most of these non-German SS volunteers joined to fight Bolshevism/Jewry who were to blame for everything wrong with the world, according to Nazi ideology.

Anyhoo it doesn't have much to do with 'that' stamp.

murphaph

samb wrote:

Why will Ian be happy. He likes to think of Eire as backward and intolerant, that unionists would be discriminated against in a united Ireland. Commemorating thousands of Irish people that died in an tragic event (not in a celebratory way) would seem like a mature, tolerant thing to do. Sectarians like Ian thrive on an enemy that must also be sectarian-this why his party and SF are so popular in Northern Ireland at present-they thrive on mutual hatred.

Couldn't have put it better myself. We can move on down here in RoIland and let 'em fester in mutual hatred in NI if they like. If part of moving on is remembering our past on a stamp like this then it's a "good thing" in my humble opinion.

my_house

its sad to see many on here STILL have no understanding of the northern part of their own country.

here, what about a Hunger Strike set of postcards? surely thats acceptable considering a lot of those irishmen in the British Army in WW1 actually thought they were going to get some form of independence out of it - and they were lied too. great thing to commemorate.

werent the UVF going to pack up today as well or something?

anyway, for the record - its only stamps. not a life or death thing really.

murphaph

my_house wrote:

its sad to see many on here STILL have no understanding of the northern part of their own country.

Ah, I have an idea of the issues in Donegal

my_house wrote:

here, what about a Hunger Strike set of postcards? surely thats acceptable considering a lot of those irishmen in the British Army in WW1 actually thought they were going to get some form of independence out of it - and they were lied too. great thing to commemorate.

Well, without getting into the details of whether or not the state should commemorate PIRA & INLA members etc., the hunger strikers only comprised a handful of individuals, whereas the Somme resulted in tens of thousands of irish casualties and left a scar on the national psyche for a long time. Many many people would know of family who fought at the Somme, very few would know anyone involved in the hunger strikes.

DublinWriter

LovelyHurling wrote:

Hopefully the next logical step might be to have some public men brave enough to wear the poppy as a mark of respect to this very noteworthy group of Irishmen

Remember the fuss caused when Gaybo wore one on the Late-Late?

DublinWriter

my_house wrote:

anyway, for the record - its only stamps. not a life or death thing really.

Stamps = symbolism = life or death thing, really.

joebhoy1916

murphaph wrote:

Ah, I have an idea of the issues in Donegal


Well, without getting into the details of whether or not the state should commemorate PIRA & INLA members etc., the hunger strikers only comprised a handful of individuals, whereas the Somme resulted in tens of thousands of irish casualties and left a scar on the national psyche for a long time. Many many people would know of family who fought at the Somme, very few would know anyone involved in the hunger strikes.

Why talk about hunger strikes!

Good enough for them you go to war you die!

You go to war in the English army and your irish your dead first!

Send ya out to no man's land.

"very few would know anyone involved in the hunger strikes"

You could be surprised.

Before this thread descends further into the mire it's getting locked.