Defending your home

Millionaire

FiannaGym.com wrote:

Millionare, I think there must be something catching these days because people on here have started to go a little loopy haha.

Peace

I think Pearse what is catching is a lack of respect.

Musashi

"You will Respeck Ma Authorite!" - Cartman

It was mentioned above about the cases where homeowners responded with lethal force to home invaders. As I understand it (but am open to correction) in the Padraig Nally case he shot the guy and wounded him, so far so good. As the guy was running away however he fired again killing him. A person running away is no longer a threat to you or your, so you can't hit/burn/pliers or shoot them at this point!
I seem to recall a similar case where a guys son was involved in drugs (allegedly) and some guys arrived to the families house to sort him out. The son wasn't home but his Dad and Sisters were. The father was told by the three guys at the door that they were armed and going to hurt and/or kill the son and any of the family they felt like hurting. The father went inside and returned with a shotgun, killed one guy there at the doorstep and wounded the other two. The case was thrown out as it was felt he'd been told they were armed (they had knives and a hammer but no firearm) and willing to harm him and his family. He acted in Self Defense and the case was decided in his favour. Of course this does not preclude a civil case being taken against him for damages. The Tony Martin case in the UK on his release the family of the guy he'd killed sued for "loss of earnings" of all things!

I mentioned that I have a gun in my house only as firearms owners were being targetted by criminals just to steal their guns. I did not mean to imply that I would respond to a burglar armed with a large calibre rifle! There would be every chance if I discharged my rifle in a house that my own family or the neighbours would be in danger from the round fired. A light Trap load in a 16 gauge would be a better toll except for the length of a shotguns barrels!

Ideally something like a kids sized Ally ball bat or even a Wakizashi sized blade would be more use in the confines of a corridor. My own choice would be a Surefire Flashlight, the E2D with a 120 lumens head fitted I can see him, he can't see for a couple minutes, and it's Koppo/Yawara/Kubotan size with out being any of those things, which are illegal!
Secure locks on the "safe room" (usually the Master Bedroom), keep the mobiles and a charger in there for calling the Gardai, a decent bright light and some sort of last stand tool if the bad guys decide to try breach the door for whatever reason. I see no difference in being prepared for this happening than my having a battery powered smoke alarm as well as the mains powered one. A fire extinguisher near the fire blanket or even a bunch of candles and a Parrafin Storm Lantern in my house. I do have three seperate first aid kits in case one is in my training gear and one in the car the house one is always there, I like to try to be prepared. It may seem like too much hassle to some, or as if I'm being wilfully negligent in not having a fallout bunker ready to others. Up to every one to decide how likely a threat is and how far they wish to go in prepping for it.

Roper

Musashi,
you never fail to amaze me with your in depth knowledge of "normal stuff that can hurt people". It ranks alongside your knowledge of "dangerous stuff that can hurt people".;)

Your smoke alarm analogy is a good one. I wonder how many more people who claim they'd kill or maim an intruder would have taken this and other statistically more likely scenarios into account.

CiaranC

Anyone know the legal status of Mace/Pepper Spray/CS Gas here?

Seems to be the perfect tool for home defence, and its freely available online.

Musashi

Anyone know the legal status of Mace/Pepper Spray/CS Gas here?

Seems to be the perfect tool for home defence, and its freely available online.

It's also specifically banned in the act under "Chemical Weapons" being any sort of device emitting noxious liquid or gas It's so illegal you'd be arrested along with your home invader. I think maybe the old Wavin Hurley may have had a use after all though?

I have read about US Marines using "Super Soakers" filled with water,Hot Sauce and a little Liquid Detergent to quiet down crowds of protestors. You could probably find the recipe online, but it would still be illegal having been "modified with intent to cause harm" type of thing. Again it's up to yourself, and I'd feel less silly with a Hurley or Golf Club, than a Super Soaker leaking down me elbow

Roper wrote:

Your smoke alarm analogy is a good one. I wonder how many more people who claim they'd kill or maim an intruder would have taken this and other statistically more likely scenarios into account.

Exactly Roper auld stock! You get your defense in layers, starting with what a person looking for a house to break in to sees from the street. Are there motion activated lights?, Alarms?,a Dog? Doesn't need to be big, just noisy and dislike strangers on his patch. Are there big hedges and stuff to hide as you approach or is it open and easy to spot an intruder if alarm is raised? Are the doors and especially the locks good quality? Is there a sliding patio door to wedge open or cut through?

Right [Rant]

Inside you take care of the most likely threats, electrical fire being a major one with the amount of Electronics most of us have these days! Are sockets overloaded, do you have a fuse box or trip switches? Where's the fire blanket/extinguisher? I actually lit up a hot wok a couple weeks ago when I answered a phone call as the oil was heating up :eek: Fire blanket and both smoke alarms going nuts, every window open and a lot of tea-towel wafting to clear the smoke!

Don't get me started on the Garden dammit! Cutting through cords on lawnmowers with no breaker box fitted is a good one. I have a petrol Chainsaw for limbing and clearing deadfalls and you know what can happen with those! Power tools, working at height yadda yadda.

I'm part of a Safety Committee at work and the big accidents are the slips,trips and falls. And generally they are caused by carelessness and untidiness, easily prevented with a bit of thought. Accidents do happen, just a lot less often when it's managed properly! [/Rant]

And after that you can think about training to actually fight others Generally the biggest threat to our health and well being is ourselves, change what you can and minimise the risks you can't alter

Have to say G'Wan Millionaire also! His last few posts have livened up the old boards, is it just me or has it been a little dull lately ? :cool:

Musashi

Elytron wrote:

Actually, i think of a gigantic swiss army knife serated at the bottom for smacking people with.

That's my new Sig. right there Baby! Yea!

Was never a Boy Scout, I was too busy living in the woods and mountains practicing all that stuff Myself and a friend even tried just walking away with our clothes and what we had in our pockets and living off that for a weekend. Since we both carried pretty good "survival kits" (this was the 80's after all!) we fared out ok. A little hungry but shelter building and fire lighting was ok, not easy but doable

crokester

"Have to say G'Wan Millionaire also! His last few posts have livened up the old boards, is it just me or has it been a little dull lately ? :cool:[/QUOTE]

Couldnt disagree more. All I seem to have got from Millionaires posts is "Im a hard man, i batter crims and save little old ladies" and more of his extended biography. You want to challenge crime so much Millionaire challenge its causes; poverty, inequality, desperation. And no, thats not makin excuses for anyone.

Millionaire

crokester wrote:

"Have to say G'Wan Millionaire also! His last few posts have livened up the old boards, is it just me or has it been a little dull lately ? :cool:

Couldnt disagree more. All I seem to have got from Millionaires posts is "Im a hard man, i batter crims and save little old ladies" and more of his extended biography. You want to challenge crime so much Millionaire challenge its causes; poverty, inequality, desperation. And no, thats not makin excuses for anyone.[/QUOTE]

Yes crokester, your totally right, I am in agreement with you.

It was great to save a few little old ladies. I feel a did a great job!

I got a great bio too I have! this is an MA site, we should be allowed to talk about our experience , our training, and what we do, will train and have done.
sharing and learning. and indeed without fear of being slagged.

If I want to talk about what I have done on here, and it is relevant to MA/SD I am perfectly entitled to do so. If I what post is not of personal interest to you, you are under no oligation to read it.

Some of us do as opposed to talk in MA. and I wish more people would talk about their experience, as opposed to "did you see Ultimate Fighter last night".

That way I might actually learn something new.

Actually this forum is not Moderated very well at all, (Sorry Colum I am not being personal, there is too much rubbish being posted, and that includes me sometimes too, too many insults and slagging).

On Geoffthompson.com forum.... any slagging, disrespect, irrelevant crap posts, you get warned immediate and banned. There is excellent discussion of technique, experience, training, Bio, interaction with the top people in the world...and there is very strict Moderation. you can make a valid post, question or comment...without being slagged.

Also to be taken serious you must introduce yourself and your Bio. which I have decided myself to do on her recently.

Its great have big opinions on here, and calling people down, but if you have no credibility to back up your opinions... so introduce yourself too.

To be honest the quality of discussion on this board, has sunk real low recently. there is little talk about technqiue, training etc... I came on here to interact with other serious MA people of all different backgrounds, so I can learn and grow..and that is not happening here anymore...which is a shame.

Many of the quality posters have been driven off here by the scarstic comments.

Millionaire

No I have not repeated my intro weekly. I repeated it twice maybe to demonstrate a point on MA training. And any time since then I refered to it, was when Sugar Ray asked me a question, which I answered...and that my friend has nothing what so ever to do with you. forums are for answering questions and discussing MA training past present and future.

And if someone asks me and question in the future, and I refer to my past or present experience, that I will do as what discussion forums is for.

If what I post bores you to tears...you are under no obligation to read it, and if your only way of making yourself look big is by trying to tear me down on here or you want to tear me down again, please step on to the mat with me anytime I am home next, and I gladly will oblige. and we'll see...

aside from that I find some of your comments to me and some others on here yesterday, very offensive, insulting and quite cheeky, and I have for your info also made a formal complaint about some of your posts to the Mod, and if he does nothing I will esclate my complaint further up the food chain.

I do not post on here to be offend or insulted by you nor anyone else with your bad attitude.

interl00per

Elytron wrote:

...The problem I have is you seem to repeat your introduction weekly and it bores me to tears.

Howdy all.... new-ish here - in fairness to millionaire he was pretty much asked to introduce himself and I for one loved his introduction (maybe because I'm new here). The only gripe I have with it is that it brings back memories of the south china sea and its long meandering coastline!

Back to defending one's gaff and family... If you manage to catch/trap someone who's intent on harming your person, family or property is it persmissable to tie them up and pratice with throwing knifes and/or cleavers until the law come? (without hitting them of course :rolleyes:)

Millionaire

Ok mate I accept your apology thanks. no not threatening you at all, as always if people want to have a go, its normal in MA to be invited to glove up.

I actually think this board and I said it to Colm should have stricter rules om moderation.

there is alot of rubbish posted these days, and I confess to have posted some crap myself at times on here. I posted something quite innocent and got a warning on geoffthonpsons board. I was kind of taken aback, but on further thought I realised they run a very to the point of the thread ship and anyting off topic or peronal is chopped immediate.

This board can be a wonderful resource for learning, and sharing of ideas, and it us great we can have access to some of the top peope in Ireland on here. Now thats a good thing...we can ask questions, learn etc

I noticed alot of experienced people you used to post like John Kavanagh, Dave Joyce, Paul PAM Ireland and a few others, are staying away...and that is a shame. and there must be a reason.

Calling all Mods...I think its time to bring the hammer down, and clean the forum up and police it more strictly.

Ok Peace mate E handshake... lets make up and train hard, its bettre postive energy for us all.

Emmo

Wow there is a lot of gung how people here.

I would like to add to whats already been said

1

If you assault someone while they are in the process of robbing your house as part of a vigilante attack you could be liable to (a) criminal prosection , (b) civil prosecution.

That is to say the person might make a complaint to the Garda that while he was robbing your home you assaulted him and hurt him badly

Then he might sue you for the injuries you inflicted on him and be awarded damages based on those injuries.

2

He knows where you live, you grabble him with a nice arm bar, give him some nice fingertip stirkes to the sloar-plexus and then you kick him black and blue and send him packing with a jump-reverse 360 and he will be hurt and angry.

You may provoke a renvenge attack from a criminal and this is something best avoided.

Safest bet get a good lock on every door, a big family protective dog, an alarm and learn how to shout at people to get out of your home.

Emmo

LAAngel

If someone was attacking you in your home, you could also use house hold items couldn't you? Such as squirt bleach in their eyes (the clear stuff not toilet duck) I know this could blind them but they shouldn't have tried to harm you in the first place. Also you could use an areosol to spray in their eyes.

I get worried when i'm out dancing, not when I'm inthe nightclub itself cause their is always security there, but when your walking to the car after work at 3.30 am and then driving home I do get worried incase we were attacked so I have a little cork screw thing I keep in the side pocket of my bag, when I'm in the car I lock the doors, if I have to make a stop (usually never need to) I also push the ciggerette lighter so if it needed I it. Only started to do this recently after I stopped at a petrol station on my own and was in the car and a guy tried to get in the passanger side, lucky had the door locked. Now this guy could have just been drunk and if he had have could in I would have asked him to leave not just attack him, I would have waited to see if he was aggresive or just acting silly. theres been alot of attacks at night in the street and I think that people should be carefull, men and woman, I always try and get security to walk us to our cars and all now as its best to not be on your own.

Quillo

I'm sure the young, the unattached and childless probably have a very different view on a home invasion (and that's exactly what it is) to those with spouses and children to consider.

I live in a two storey house. Someone breaks in and starts wandering around down stairs, I gather my family in one room, call the Gardai and sit it out.

Someone comes up stairs though and as far as I'm concerned it's no longer about property, its about a personal threat against my family.....and under those circumstances "reasonable force" is what ever it takes to negate that threat.

This is not being gung-ho or macho or over-the-top....
This is simply accepting responsibility for the safety of my family, as no one else is going to do that for me.

pma-ire

Millionaire wrote:

I noticed alot of experienced people you used to post like John Kavanagh, Dave Joyce, Paul PAM Ireland and a few others, are staying away...and that is a shame. and there must be a reason.

Hey Ger,

Even though you called me PAM!! Thanks for the mention!!

I'm still here! Just waiting in the shadows for the right point to strike!!

Work and life has gotten a bit mad of late and I'm trying to work on my club and arrange seminars for Rick Clark in November so time is a bit short online!!

On this subject!! I think it's crazy that when someone breaks into your house you have to treat it like your out on the public street!! Like if someone enters your house without your permission how are you meant to know what their intention is??

It may be to just steal from your house at first! But it may change in the course of skulking around your house to interfering with you or your family!! I would not want to take that chance with my wife and kids!!

Shouting at them is a must making lots of noise and that! As it may be enough to get them to scatter!! But it may not be and you have to be prepared to make sure that they leave!! (I don't think that holding them until the cops come is always a good option!!)

People think that being compliant is always going to save them! But Rick (who has an undergraduate and graduate degree in criminology) has told me that most people that move from the first point of contact with someone that breaks into their house usually end up in a position where they are at the mercy of that person. Then they are subjective to the will and twisted intentions of the aggressor.

pma-ire

LAAngel wrote:

If someone was attacking you in your home, you could also use house hold items couldn't you? Such as squirt bleach in their eyes (the clear stuff not toilet duck) I know this could blind them but they shouldn't have tried to harm you in the first place. Also you could use an areosol to spray in their eyes.

I get worried when i'm out dancing, not when I'm inthe nightclub itself cause their is always security there, but when your walking to the car after work at 3.30 am and then driving home I do get worried incase we were attacked so I have a little cork screw thing I keep in the side pocket of my bag, when I'm in the car I lock the doors, if I have to make a stop (usually never need to) I also push the ciggerette lighter so if it needed I it. Only started to do this recently after I stopped at a petrol station on my own and was in the car and a guy tried to get in the passanger side, lucky had the door locked. Now this guy could have just been drunk and if he had have could in I would have asked him to leave not just attack him, I would have waited to see if he was aggresive or just acting silly. theres been alot of attacks at night in the street and I think that people should be carefull, men and woman, I always try and get security to walk us to our cars and all now as its best to not be on your own.

Good post!

Their is no need to be paroniod! But no harm in thinking safe!

Keeping yourself out of situations is the best defence!!

Roper

Quillo wrote:

I'm sure the young, the unattached and childless probably have a very different view on a home invasion (and that's exactly what it is) to those with spouses and children to consider.

I live in a two storey house. Someone breaks in and starts wandering around down stairs, I gather my family in one room, call the Gardai and sit it out.

Someone comes up stairs though and as far as I'm concerned it's no longer about property, its about a personal threat against my family.....and under those circumstances "reasonable force" is what ever it takes to negate that threat.

This is not being gung-ho or macho or over-the-top....
This is simply accepting responsibility for the safety of my family, as no one else is going to do that for me.

^ sense^!!!!

Musashi

Milly wrote:

as always if people want to have a go, its normal in MA to be invited to glove up.

Jaysus, I'm only hoping if and when Gerry gets back here I'd get to glove up and spark off of him! I reckon we'd see his earlier experiences show out pretty soon, but I might give him some hassle also? We'd never know if we never tried! MMA at it's most basic there maybe?

Gerry, let us know when your in country again mate! Looking forward to learning some Thai and RBSD from ya!

Millionaire

poor oul Gerry is on the up hill struggle with training.

The mind wants to do it, but the body will not follow.
the ol creaky knee's are playing up big time!!

Myabe back for a visit in 18 months time! so we shall have a training session,
I need to learn more.

The furstrating thing of training in a thai camp is there is little learning, no real teaching...its all do it yourself.

anway Mill got stuck into the thai beer last night and is the colour of a ghost and dying today!!!! thai beer gives a rotten hang over.

Black Swan

I can recall an incident that almost got ugly regarding home defense. Someone tried to break into my home not too many years ago. My Great Dane (large male, very fit, and outweighs me by several stone) did his duty and confronted the intruder before he could get completely inside. The intruder ran away. I got hold of the hound before he pursued him. Oh, at the time I was below the age of consent (16) and home alone, if this somehow affects the liability issues. Two questions:

1) If the intruder had gotten inside my home and the Dane attacked and injured him, what's my (family) exposure to criminal or civil action? Comments?

2) What if the intruder had come a day earlier, when the hound was at the Vet and not with me at home, my parent was gone, and I attacked the intruder when he broke in, and injured him? Remember, I was below the age of consent at the time (not sure anyone has addressed this age issue yet in this thread). Comments?

Musashi

1) If the intruder had gotten inside my home and the Dane attacked and injured him, what's my (family) exposure to criminal or civil action? Comments?

I'm not a barrister, nor do I play one on TV. I would imagine however that if your dog injured the guy he could have taken a civil case against your parents for injuries/mental anguish and loss of earnings! Your age would not come into it as it was intruder versus Dog.

2) What if the intruder had come a day earlier, when the hound was at the Vet and not with me at home, my parent was gone, and I attacked the intruder when he broke in, and injured him? Remember, I was below the age of consent at the time

As a minor attacking an intruder and sending him packing with minor injuries again your parents would be liable, you and the dog being your parents responsibility If you were to beat the guy to death in an over the top malicious manner then there may be some case to try you as an adult. Your 16 after all, not 10! If your a big young fella and had some training it could be argued that you should have exercised some restraint in the beating you administered?

Again, I don't really know definitively, and the only one who could is the DPP! We can all argue what has happened in previous cases, but in the end the DPP decides what cases to prosecute based on the merits of each incident.

Sounds like you did fine mate, in the event of a home invasion I'd prefer to focus on that problem rather than worrying about any possible court case arising from that incident. Bear it in mind but live to deal with it either way mate

Odysseus

Just as what I think is an interesting comparsion, I'm leaving north Sweden today. The people here leave their cars open all the time, but also they only lock their front door when the go out, even then the key is left in it. I think the only lock it so the neighbours know that they are not in. Don't get me wrong I take my personal security very seriously, but when I asked my host about it she said there are never any breakins this far north.

Millionaire

Odysseus wrote:

Just as what I think is an interesting comparsion, I'm leaving north Sweden today. The people here leave their cars open all the time, but also they only lock their front door when the go out, even then the key is left in it. I think the only lock it so the neighbours know that they are not in. Don't get me wrong I take my personal security very seriously, but when I asked my host about it she said there are never any breakins this far north.

Funny you say that, when I lived in Prince Edwards Island off east coast of canada, nobody locked anything, cars were left open, doors and window etc, and the town Charlottetown, was about the size of say Athlone.
In contrast to that, there was an element of societythere, sort of violent rednecks, that out cause fights, and brawls out in the bars at night. if you looked crooked at some of them, it would mean trouble.

sort of imagine the local disco, with 100 big pick up trucks outside, and harleys... lumberjack shirts and baseballs hats image, and guys have arm wrestling on bonnets of pick up trucks....:eek:

pma-ire

Millionaire wrote:

In contrast to that, there was an element of societythere, sort of violent rednecks, that out cause fights, and brawls out in the bars at night. if you looked crooked at some of them, it would mean trouble.

sort of imagine the local disco, with 100 big pick up trucks outside, and harleys... lumberjack shirts and baseballs hats image, and guys have arm wrestling on bonnets of pick up trucks....:eek:

You just love going to violent places! Don't ya!!

Millionaire

I wasn't my choice... my parents made me go to University there. I hated it!

I had hair down to me butt, and all I want was to be going to heavy metal pubs liKE Bruxelles in Dublin on the weekend, and a wee bit of kickboxing! this was 1989. Instead I got 5 years of rednecks trying to kill me, as "Achie Breaky Heart" played in the disco for the 11th time in a night..and -30 degrees and 5 feet of snow of 5 months of the year! LOL!!!!

I did get near enough to black belt in WTF TKD during this time!! it wasn't much use for the red necks though! I think I had my own style of Krav Maga invented by the time I left in '94!

Odysseus

[QUOTE=Millionaire

sort of imagine the local disco, with 100 big pick up trucks outside, and harleys... lumberjack shirts and baseballs hats image, and guys have arm wrestling on bonnets of pick up trucks....:eek:[/QUOTE]


That's interesting we got fed in the local school for the past few days. I was asked if I was interested in watching a tape someone made of the race. We watched it in the what I think was the staff room, the was a table professionally made for arm wrestling:eek: I thought the christian brothers were bad. However, I have to say the nicest people I ever met, but saying that I did'nt meet any of the teachers:D

focusing

You’re fine as long as you just use reasonable force to defend yourself or restrain the intruder.

From a criminal law pov, once they’re disabled, unconscious or restrained you have to stop hitting them. You have to call the Gardai immediately if you’ve restrained or disabled them.

A jury of your peers will believe your story more than the burglar’s and will be sympathetic enough, as will the Gardai. That recent case of the farmer, it’s been referred to earlier, who was convicted for shooting a burglar (who happened to be a Traveller) was different because he shot the intruder in the back in cold blood. And was foolish enough not to come up with some sort of excuse.

Don’t make an on-the-record statement of how you inflicted the injuries under any circumstances without your solicitor. If the burglar’s injured, you should make a statement about the burglary, but don’t give any detail about you hurting them. Do give clear details about how they attacked you.

If they’re dead, call the Gardai and an ambulance, and don’t say a single word on-the-record without your solicitor. Them dying makes life so much harder for you. Start thinking of precisely why you were in danger and why your response was proportionate.

Accidental deaths are easier to deal with than violent ones, so them being stabbed with their own knife as they grapple with you is better than you stabbing them and them being startled, running, slipping and hitting their head is better than you tripping them.

If you hit them on the back of the head, you’re better off if they were attacking towards you, but turned just as they saw you striking the blow, and so were hit behind. You’re also in a much stronger position if they made an explicit verbal threat, like “I am going to kill you” / “you’re dead”, etc.

From a civil law pov, you’re now only liable for trespassers if you deliberately injure them or if you set a man-trap of some sort, though you have a higher duty to child trespassers. Again, reasonable force is fine. Dogs shouldn’t be able to bite a hand protruding through a letter box or gate. If you have a letter-box in a door, never let your dog have access to it.

I really wouldn’t worry about being sued if you find a burglar in your house, once you don’t tie him up and torture him or something similarly crazy, you’re fine.

Anyway, he’ll be more scared of you than visa versa. If he can escape he will, and you should definitely let him. If he attacks you instead of legging it, then he’s fair game.

ThatGuy’s advise was good. Stay upstairs, shout that you’ve called the Gardai, he’ll leave. But if he doesn’t, you’re dealing with someone dangerous, and there’ll be no legal problems once you’re reasonable in defending yourself.

If you have a real-life problem of this nature, drop me a Private Message and I can go into a bit more detail.

focusing

Oh, and I'd avoid using a Rear Naked Choke!

A judge and jury may not understand it's a sporting manouver.

focusing

There's a solid post about the law of Self Defence by gabhain7 here:

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054964870