Is The Hot Hatch Dead?

Plug · 02-07-2006 3:48pm

Yeah thats true alright. They fitted a front and rear spoiler with the new GTI to help counteract understeer. I wonder how the R36 will do with its 4WD:cool:

Big Balls · 02-07-2006 4:47pm

Zascar will you ever give the "GTi is an armchair with a turbo" bolloc*s a rest :rolleyes:

You slate other people's opinions yet you throw up complete bulls*it like the above.

The MKV GTI is a very capable car, it has every right to be called a hot hatch.

Every bloody motoring journalist in the world must be wrong and you must be right so. You are driving an almost 5 year old car worth probably 18k.. get over yourself!!!

Get an M3 and THEN start preaching to everyone about how your car handles.

sneakyST · 02-07-2006 5:05pm

pburns wrote:

If I saw one I'd recognise it as an ST.

What I'm saying is that to the vast majority of people who aren't overly clued in about cars (or interested), it'll just look like a tarted up, boy-racer, 1.4 Focus with big rims and a big exhaust. If that kinda thing doesn't matter to you & you simply enjoy driving the thing that's not gonna much difference.

I'm not a fan of VWs, but personally, I think it's the only car of this type with the image to pull off the hot hatch thing without looking chavtastic. And by accounts I've read, the MkV handles really well. That's just my opinion, call it prejudiced or skewed if you like...

In fairness you never mentioned anyone else in your post - i think your wrong though but thats just my opinion

Zascar · 02-07-2006 5:07pm

Big Balls wrote:

Zascar will you ever give the "GTi is an armchair with a turbo" bolloc*s a rest :rolleyes:

keep your panties on I'm just pulling your strings. There is a guy in work who went out and spent 46k on a brand new GTi and would not stop mouthing about it. He took me for a spin, and no doubt its a beautifully refined car but I just thought it lacked that certin edge. This was just before I had bought the Type R but he completely rubbished me saying his was miles faster. The manufacturers figures put the civic ahead by a tiny bit in 0-60 and BHP but he would not believe me, so we found a quite road and I showed him the difference. Neither of us would swap though, horses for courses...

Big Balls · 02-07-2006 5:10pm

Zascar wrote:

keep your panties on I'm just pulling your strings. There is a guy in work who went out and spent 46k on a brand new GTi and would not stop mouthing about it. He took me for a spin, and no doubt its a beautifully refined car but I just thought it lacked that certin edge. This was just before I had bought the Type R but he completely rubbished me saying his was miles faster. The manufacturers figures put the civic ahead by a tiny bit in 0-60 and BHP but he would not believe me, so we found a quite road and I showed him the difference. Neither of us would swap though, horses for courses...

Well don't tar the GTI because you work with someone who is not open-minded enough to see beyond the car for what it is.

And God help him when he wants to trade it in/sell it on! 10k of extras? Ouch.

jayok · 02-07-2006 5:15pm

Big Balls wrote:

You are driving an almost 5 year old car worth probably 18k.. get over yourself!!!

I'm sorry to interrupt this bullsh1t - but because you spent nearly 40k on an new GTI it makes it a better car? I think it's you that need to get over yourself.

sneakyST · 02-07-2006 5:23pm

Lads- all these hot hatches are aimed at different people - as said horses for courses- if you want something raw and edgy buy an Opel OPC or Type R - If you want something a bit more flexible then buy a Gti or ST. I dont really see the point in bashing each others cars. I wouldnt buy certain cars but i dont look down my nose at other peoples choices. I would rather try and chat to people to see what the cars are like rather than just dismissing them - this is a motors board isnt it but its more like a place to moan and gloat

Big Balls · 02-07-2006 5:24pm

jayok wrote:

I'm sorry to interrupt this bullsh1t - but because you spent nearly 40k on an new GTI it makes it a better car? I think it's you that need to get over yourself.

I don't recall mentioning how much my car was or wasn't.

I don't recall saying my car was better than ANYTHING.

And I don't recall asking you for your opinion.

My point on the value of a 2002 CTR was that you'd swear he was driving a Ferrari the way he thinks there's such a comparable difference between a CTR and a GTI.

He certainly doesn't need you to fight his corner for him anyway.

maidhc · 02-07-2006 5:27pm

Big Balls wrote:

Zascar will you ever give the "GTi is an armchair with a turbo" bolloc*s a rest :rolleyes:

A reasonable way to describe the car. A fast comfortable hatchback is exactly what it is. What it isn't is an uncompromising sports car in the vein of a Lotus 7 or whatnot.

jayok · 02-07-2006 5:38pm

Big Balls wrote:

I don't recall mentioning how much my car was or wasn't..

You didn't but you did mention the price of the CTR. I seemed fair to quote the price of the GTI to give some sort of balance. The implication in your post was that the CTR only being worth 18K couldn't compare to the GTI.

Big Balls wrote:

I don't recall saying my car was better than ANYTHING.

Really? In a previous 2006 CTR discussion thread on a number of occassions you mentioned the GTI being a better car. Unfortunately the search seems to be disabled.

Big Balls wrote:

And I don't recall asking you for your opinion.

Welcome to a forum, you get opinions and facts whether you like it or not.

Big Balls wrote:

He certainly doesn't need you to fight his corner for him anyway.

True, but if, I read silly comments sometimes I just feel the need to reply.

Big Balls · 02-07-2006 5:45pm

maidhc wrote:

A reasonable way to describe the car.

Well I disagree. I think how you describe it is a far more realistic view.

Jayok, I stand by anything you can dig out of a search engine. I think, the GTI is the overall better car...drive, power delivery, looks, interior, residuals, quality...

You don't need to moan on about me making the point of what his car is worth, I'll do the comparison for you. A 2002 GTI is worth about €1500 more than a 2002 CTR. I never compared it to the price of a new MKV. Where's the logic in your argument here exactly?

Takeshi_Kovacs · 02-07-2006 5:49pm

I remember the Nissan Sunny 2.0 l turbo, what a neat car.. one of my other faves is the 1989 Mitsubhishi colt 1.6 l turbo. What a car for its time, and there are plenty of people putting the 4g63T engine from the old evo and eclipse into these cars, changing them from hot hatchback to pocket rocket... There is a very good forum for them as well at www.4g61t.com. Unfortunately America got most of these cars..

Squirrel · 02-07-2006 6:03pm

Personally, the MkV GTI is my favourite of all the hot-hatches. It' the sound of it, the look of it and the interior, everything about it I just seem to like. There are plenty of hot hatches out there these days as has been shown.

I wouldn't compare a GTI to a CTR, the GTI has some creature comforts, the CTR is pretty much pared down in comparison.

One of the best solutions is a high powered estate car such as Subaru Legacy/Impreza, or the Mitsubishi Galant VR-4. Practicality and power. (The 156 Sportwagon GTA doesn't count as its boot is smaller than the saloons)

bazz26 · 02-07-2006 6:49pm

sneakyST wrote:

Lads- all these hot hatches are aimed at different people - as said horses for courses- if you want something raw and edgy buy an Opel OPC or Type R - If you want something a bit more flexible then buy a Gti or ST. I dont really see the point in bashing each others cars. I wouldnt buy certain cars but i dont look down my nose at other peoples choices. I would rather try and chat to people to see what the cars are like rather than just dismissing them - this is a motors board isnt it but its more like a place to moan and gloat

Well said.

Plug · 02-07-2006 7:53pm

Zascar wrote:

There is a guy in work who went out and spent 46k on a brand new GTi and would not stop mouthing about it.

LOL:D What a muppet, he could of got a golf R32 for less than that, tell him that and then he'll have something to mouth about:rolleyes:

Delta_ie · 02-07-2006 8:02pm

The hothatch is dead. There were the originals such as the mk1 gti and 205gti but all the rest after them are not hothatches in the original sense. They have evolved into cars with creature comforts and reliability that are also fast. These cars have compromised to give drivers the best of both worlds so no matter how powerfull they are and how good they are as cars they will never be hothatches in the original sense of the idea...

Plug · 02-07-2006 8:12pm

Life goes on and things evolve. The first fighter aircraft were sh!t redbarrons today they are harrier jump jets, they still remain fighter aircraft, same goes for the hothatchs:)

sneakyST · 02-07-2006 8:43pm

Delta_ie wrote:

The hothatch is dead. There were the originals such as the mk1 gti and 205gti but all the rest after them are not hothatches in the original sense. They have evolved into cars with creature comforts and reliability that are also fast. These cars have compromised to give drivers the best of both worlds so no matter how powerfull they are and how good they are as cars they will never be hothatches in the original sense of the idea...

A hothatch is a standard hatchback made quicker etc. The hot hatches have creature comforts because the standard cars they are based on have them. I am not sure what you mean by "hothatch in the original sense"

colm_mcm · 02-07-2006 8:43pm

I may have found a compromise. For those of you who mourn the demise of cars such as the MK1 Golf GTI, but can't be seen to not have a 06 reg. The VW VeloCiti. Basically a MK1 GTI with a Lupo GTI interior. Can be bought new in South Africa, and costs the equivelant of €10,500

$Leon$ · 02-07-2006 8:46pm

What engine is in it?

colm_mcm · 02-07-2006 8:47pm

1.6 fuel injected, and with a cat. 0-60 in about 9.3. Same as a MK1 1.6 GTI

wonder how importing one would work, emissions etc. any restrictions?

Delta_ie · 02-07-2006 9:27pm

sneakyST wrote:

A hothatch is a standard hatchback made quicker etc. The hot hatches have creature comforts because the standard cars they are based on have them. I am not sure what you mean by "hothatch in the original sense"

It may have been the standard hatchback body but every thing else was changed. The cars were design by engineers to go fast with the principle of good power:weight ratios, not by marketing people who wanted to appeal to a certain age/culture sector. Everything was in the car with the purpose of making the car an enjoyable drive and fast. It was not over loaded with electronic devices and things that took away from feedback. These cars were also alot smaller/lighter than present cars with large curb weights.
I see were people are coming from that it has a hatch and is fast but these cannot really be compared to the original cars that created the hothatch category.

Squirrel · 02-07-2006 9:34pm

Delta_ie wrote:

It may have been the standard hatchback body but every thing else was changed. The cars were design by engineers to go fast with the principle of good power:weight ratios, not by marketing people who wanted to appeal to a certain age/culture sector. Everything was in the car with the purpose of making the car an enjoyable drive and fast. It was not over loaded with electronic devices and things that took away from feedback. These cars were also alot smaller/lighter than present cars with large curb weights.
I see were people are coming from that it has a hatch and is fast but these cannot really be compared to the original cars that created the hothatch category.

But, as sneakyST said, the standard MkI Golf and 205 had the low curb weight and minimal creature comforts, so the engineers uprated engine, suspension, brakes etc.

Now, the engineers do the same, but with a car with a higher curb weight and more creature comforts, they still uprated the engine, suspension, brakes etc.

The principle behind them is the same, executed in the same fashion, just the car was different to begin with, so is just as different at the end. The MkV GTI is as much a hot hatch as a MkI, based on where they both came from (bog standard Golfs). Different eras, different needs, different cars, same principle.

Delta_ie · 02-07-2006 9:53pm

edit

Delta_ie · 02-07-2006 10:02pm

Thats the thing, hatchbacks have turned into much bigger cars. They might be following the same ideas of making a stock hatchback faster but to me they do not seem like the "classic" hothatch. They are more soft and compromised, that isn't a bad thing just different. In recent years the nearest car companys have got to the "classic" hothatch would have to be the clio 182.

mloc123 · 02-07-2006 10:33pm

The 182 cup? no abs, no aircon etc.. it is a hothatch the classic sense.

FX Meister · 02-07-2006 11:27pm

Supercharged V6 Golf. 300 Bhp. That's hot enough for me.
http://www.freewebs.com/yahoos-killers/DSC00120.JPG
http://www.freewebs.com/yahoos-killers/DSC00118.JPG

sneakyST · 03-07-2006 7:03am

mloc123 wrote:

The 182 cup? no abs, no aircon etc.. it is a hothatch the classic sense.

Since when is having no abs a good thing???

You may aswell say that todays supercars are soft then with all the gadgetry.
Im still fuzzy on the whole "classic" hot hatch thing. Thats what the engineers had to work with..are you saying that if cars then had then same safety and comforts levels as the cars now, the engineers would have striped the cars out?

Henry Ford III · 03-07-2006 9:20am

bazz26 wrote:

It will be interesting to see how a front wheel drive car handles 228bhp. Lots of torque steer my guess. Most front wheel drive cars with over 200bhp suffer from this.

Focus ST has 225 bhp, and puts down the power fine.

Mine doesn't have traction control, not that it needs it. The chassis really is that good.

prospect · 03-07-2006 9:34am

Henry Ford III wrote:

Torque steer central. I've driven one and it's terrible. Chassis cannot cope with the power.

Lovely engine though.

Don't agree. I raced one in Mondello and found it superb. If you want to go all out some modifiactions would be required, but this applies for almost and car built for the road.
On the road it is wonderful. Agree with you RE: the engine, it is shweeeet.

But it is slowly being surpassed by the newer cars like the Focus ST. I think AR, should wind up that GTA, and get cracking on the next generation one.

Is The Hot Hatch Dead?

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