Rules of Islam for raising children for a Non-Muslim

Medina

Hi,
I am a non-Muslim (I will not disclose my religion as this is not the point of this thread) but I am engaged to marry a Muslim who is very good about practicing his religion and always strives to do the best he can.

I have agreed (to my somewhat anxiety) to allow any children of our future marriage to be raised as Muslims.

Therefore can anyone be outline for me some of the most important Islamic rules on raising children so that I know what I'm letting myself in for (I don't mean to be offensive here. I simply fear what I don't know).


Please help

Hobbes

Before someone who can answer your question comes along. Have you tried the obvious and asking your Husband to be what it entails?

Wibbs

That was my thought too. Regardless of the religion involved, I would have thought talking about it more with the man you're going to spend your life with would be the way to go. Finding out for yourself, reading up on the faith in question, etc. Outside of the religion angle, lack of communication over what appears to be a very important part of your future partners life should raise warning flags with you. If you're religious yourself, does this arangement sit Ok with you? Would he want you to convert? If not, is he OK with your faith or lack of it? It may mean little now in the excitement in the run up to the wedding, but if he is a devout follower of any faith these questions will come up again and there are a lot of questions to be answered for both of you. I presume he'd feel the same way. Marriage between any two people can be difficult enough without adding to it. Listen to your anxiety and find out. For a change I don't think I'd find much disagreement from others here over this point.

Schuhart

Can I double what Hobbes says. I know this is not the Personal Issues forum, but I think it is important that you have a clear understanding of your prospective husband's expectations and that he is aware of any questions or doubts that you have.

the_new_mr

Hello Medina! You're very welcome here.

I'm sorry that you're feeling anxious about this whole thing. It's perfectly natural to fear what you don't know. Hobbes, Wibbs and Schuhart echo my own opinion on this though. I think the best thing you can do is to sit down with your future husband and sort this out.

In summary, a Muslim child's basis would be to be brought up to believe that there is no god except God Himself without any partners and that Mohamed is His messenger. After that comes teaching them how to pray, fast etc and of course how to be good people as in how to do what's right even in a difficult situation.

Honestly, your statement of

Medina wrote:

to my somewhat anxiety

is one that I think you're going to need to sort out.

I would take a guess that you're anxious about this point because you yourself believe that Islam is not the right religion and that you wouldn't want this for your children.

What if the children are brought up as good Muslims, would this be too much for you to bare? What if they're not? Would this be too much for your husband to bare? Either way will be a bad strain on the marriage. The children may only be confused by being in a tug-o-war between two religions so, as already stated here, you really should sit down with your husband and have a long talk about it.

Anyway, if you want to do some reading up on Islam yourself then here's a good place to start.
http://islamonline.net/English/Discover_Islam/index.shtml

Have a talk with your husband and try and get a good understanding of what the future may bring. Of course, only God knows what's to come in the future.

I pray that this comes out in the best way possible. Let us know how you get on.

DinoBot

Medina wrote:

Hi,


I have agreed (to my somewhat anxiety) to allow any children of our future marriage to be raised as Muslims.

Please help

Hi Medina,

I have a lot of friends and family with mix marrages, my first answer is they dont work.

But don't take that as a negative, I say that from personel experience with my own parents and friends and myself.
You have agreed to something for your kids which you would not have for yourself. This is a BIG problem.
I have kids and I would find it very difficult to have them do something I would not do myself.

For it to work you MUST have very good communication between yourself and your husband. Plus its all about give and take. You must feel that your views are also listened too. Will he give a little when you need it in matters of your faith ? Will he allow the kids to take part in some of your religious events ? It will not work if the kids are thought to feel "mammy and her strange religion".

Im not sure how much thought you have given it but give it some more:

1. What school will they attend ?
2. If local catholic school, are you okay with them missing communion etc
3. Christmas, you okay having no Santa ?
4. Hijab, okay with your child wearing one ?

These are just basic questions, which you have probably talked through already. If so its best to ask direct questions here, ones which you do worry about, and you will get the answer here.

Alot will also depend on where your husband comes from. But I have seen the most moderate and flexable muslim in the world will become the most strict once kids are born. (and thats not a bad thing, just be aware of this fact)

You have to go in with eyes open, talk and educate yourself. Visit Mosque (on your own) speak to the women. A mixed marrage is very hard. It will take a lot of work from both of you.

I spoke to the Imam (leader) of the Dublin Mosque about that very topic. He said he always advices against it.

D

Medina

Thank you all of you for your concern, and worries over our 'communication issues'.

This is something I am aware of.

Maybe I should have given a little more background to the situation....
I myself am Catholic, and was brought up to practise my faith.
He was brought up in a liberal, non-practising Muslim family, but at the age of 28, found God in his life.

At the start of our relationship I found this very refreshing, as I was tired of having boyfriends with whom I couldn't share more than the superficial day-today stuff of life.

Although engaged, we are having problems with religion , that is true.

I am very open-minded (not to be confused with being too liberal), and like friendly debate/discussion about religion. I did not know much about Islam, and so it was interesting for me to learn about it. I think of myself as quite a tolerant person. I read some of the Qu'ran and always supported him by encouraging him to go to the Mosque for his prayers, and not eating in front of him during Ramadan, not drinking alcohol around him or bringing it into the house myself.
However.. (there's always a 'But'!), I do not like to criticise what I must respect for others. As I have come to find out, my Muslim fiancee cannot respect my religion ..
He does say he respects my choice, but unfortunately during conversations about religion, they always deteriorate into him trashing Christianity basically.
I respect his right to not agree with something but can't seem to handle the constant criticisms and the attitude of superiority because his religion is the 'right' religion.
When I try to explain this to him, he simply tries to prove that Islam is the right religion by going through the scientific proofs etc in Islam.

I have asked therefore that we do not discuss religion anymore because I'm finding that my faith is dwindling in Christianity due to his constant criticisms.
I think his objective here was to move me toward Islam, but instead its pushing me away from God altogether.

If we could get this under control, and I understood what is required for kids then this would help make my mind up about whether to continue with this man.

To be honest, He hasn't attempted to sit me down and explain what happens with them and that does worry me.

I am aware of having to give up Christmas for them, of them having to go to a school with multi denominational races and religions.

I am aware of the rights of women according to Islam.

I am not aware of the age they have to do prayers, of fasting, etc.
What do Muslim children find hard to do in their religion?
And in particular when they become teenagers, what is expected of them?
What are they not allowed to do that kids from say liberal Christian families?

The problem is that I can't seem to get a handle on all of it.
Because on top of the Qu'ran there are all the Hadith, and everytime I don't agree with something from Islam, he says there is a Hadith that says xyz, therefore I have to give up.

Basically, I don't want to be the person responsible for putting his soul on the wrong path by making him deviate from his religion but at the same time I want him to just leave me in peace with mine.

Really I need from you is the answers to my questions on Muslim child-rearing.
I will have to figure out the relationship questions on my own (as someone said..this is not a Personal Issues forum) and I don't really want people to think I want relationship advice.

I just want to know the facts about Islam and children.

Please & Thanks

Rev Hellfire

Personally I think you're making a mistake.
Marriage is about respect for each other and honestly it seems to me that it is a quality which is missing when it comes to your partners treatment of you. A marriage is a union of two equals.

But more importently is why would you agree to raise your future children in a manner which you have expressed reservations about yourself? I'd certainly echo the views of the others who have suggested you vist the Mosque , but aditionally if you are still a professed catholic you should also vist your local priest. Both should have encountered this situation before and should be able to provide guidance.
Because unless you can reconcil your fears your marriage will simply not work.

DinoBot

Medina wrote:

As I have come to find out, my Muslim fiancee cannot respect my religion ..

I think giving advice is always hard because people always come from their own perspective, and tend
toward the ideal case rather than whats real and what they would do. Its easy for me to say dont do it
so I wont. I will tell you some of my experiences instead.

In my experience Islam is tolerant of other religions, muslims however are not. Muslims find it hard to
understand why anyone would remain christian when its so clear the quran is the word of God.

Medina wrote:

I have asked therefore that we do not discuss religion anymore because I'm finding that my faith is dwindling in Christianity due to his constant criticisms.
I think his objective here was to move me toward Islam, but instead its pushing me away from God altogether.

Not the solution, but this is very very common. What is going to happen when your kids ask about your religion ? Will
it be okay for them to be told your religion is false and will perhaps lead to the hellfire ? Is it okay
for them to be told Mammy is going to hell ?

Medina wrote:

If we could get this under control, and I understood what is required for kids then this would help make my mind up about whether to continue with this man.

Your asking a very complex question and to be honest there is not a single answer. Bringing up kids is
a learning experience for the parents. You learn as you go along. There is no manual or
best fit rules. This is the same for muslims and non-muslims.

Medina wrote:

To be honest, He hasn't attempted to sit me down and explain what happens with them and that does worry me.

Nothing happens. I mean if you had to write down what happens to kids being christian what would you write?

Medina wrote:

I am not aware of the age they have to do prayers, of fasting, etc.

Not sure of exact age but as I said it will differ slightly between families and cultures.
There is an age when prayers and fasting should start
but the way its done will differ from family to family. Some are strict some are felxable, some dont
enforce at all. The way your family will do it will depend upon your husband to be. What type of man
is he ?

Medina wrote:

What do Muslim children find hard to do in their religion?

Depends on children. Some find the prayers hard some its fasting. No girlfriends,
no drinking.

Medina wrote:

And in particular when they become teenagers, what is expected of them?
What are they not allowed to do that kids from say liberal Christian families?

liberal Christian families, so will you have a liberal muslim family ? If so
what does that mean. Is your husband to be a liberal muslim ?

Medina wrote:

Really I need from you is the answers to my questions on Muslim child-rearing.
I just want to know the facts about Islam and children.
Please & Thanks

Its complex but not really different from ordinary child-rearing.

It comes down to if you are okay with their world view. Their concept of God. My friends kids came home from mosque
one day and told their mum that their nanny was going to hell because she was not muslim. Stuff like that will
pop up. How will you both deal with it ?
When they ask you why you dont go to mosque what will you
tell them.
Because you dont believe in God ? or a differnt God ? and if they ask who is right you or Dad ?

Whats your fears, you seem to have particular worries ?

Hobbes

Before this thread starts degrading. While the OP has other issues in relation to this to sort out I might remind everyone of the initial question and stick to that.

DinoBot wrote:

Some are strict some are felxable, some dont enforce at all. The way your family will do it will depend upon your husband to be. What type of man is he ?

Which is what it essentially boils down to.

Oriel

Do him a favour and raise him as a Christian.

Medina

Muslims find it hard to
understand why anyone would remain christian when its so clear the quran is the word of God

This is true for me, and ultimately one of our major problems.

What is going to happen when your kids ask about your religion ? Will
it be okay for them to be told your religion is false and will perhaps lead to the hellfire ? Is it okay
for them to be told Mammy is going to hell ?

Good point I have no idea, and even if I did, he might not agree with what I want to tell them

Nothing happens. I mean if you had to write down what happens to kids being christian what would you write?

I'm talking purely about from an Islamic point of view. Does anything change? Do they have to do extra things? You're forgetting I know absolutely nothing about life as a Muslim teenager.

liberal Christian families, so will you have a liberal muslim family ? If so
what does that mean. Is your husband to be a liberal muslim ?
No what I mean is, even though Christians break the rules more easily than Muslims break theirs, there are still some things like dating for example that are not forbidden in Christianity. You have already said that this is forbidden, is there anything else that a non-Muslim teenager takes for granted, that is expressly forbidden in Islam.

Hobbes

sinecurea takes a weeks holiday.

Medina wrote:

No what I mean is, even though Christians break the rules more easily than Muslims break theirs,

I think the point people are trying to get across that this is not always the case. You need to discuss with your Husband what exactly it is he expects of the children growing up. Muslims vary on what rules they follow. If you have these issues with your husband now you need to address them now rather then 10-15 years later.

Medina

Hobbes, you're missing the point I'm trying desperately to make here.
In other words, if you take away all the things that lax Christians do but shouldn't and you're left just with what they ARE allowed to do, how does this differ to what Muslims are allowed to do?

What are the things that even a faithful Christian can do but a Muslim can't?

Hobbes

I think your missing the point. You need to speak to your husband.

While you will be allowed to continue your religon (as a child of the book) your children will be expected to be raised as Muslims.

So you need to ask about how muslim children are raised but also.
- What if you want the child christened?
- What about Easter? Christmas?
- Do you plan to bring the children to Mass on sunday?

Another thing to take into account is that the husband is considered the head of the household. In the case of a divorce he would expect custody of the children.

There have been reported cases of Muslim fathers returning to thier home country with the children after a divorce to ensure they are raised as Muslims. The mothers consider this "kidnapping", although when the mother gets her children back the father considers it "kidnapping" too.

Karl Hungus

This is a very interesting situation.

Medina, you seem to be certain that your children will be raised as Muslims, and I really wonder who's decision is that? I also wonder what would happen if you wanted your children raised as Christian?

I don't know if this would be acceptable to your husband, but have you considered raising your children without religion, and allowing them to decide their faith when they are mature enough? Could be something to consider.

Medina

If I go through with marrying him, I will hold faithful to my promise and try to support him with it.

This means I will not be mixing Christian traditions/beliefs/practices with their Islamic ones.

All I really want to know is from someone who knows, what are the rules (apart from morality and ethics wherein the two religions have common beliefs), what practices or rules exist in Islam for raising children?

Medina

Karl Hungus wrote:

This is a very interesting situation.

Medina, you seem to be certain that your children will be raised as Muslims, and I really wonder who's decision is that?




I don't know if this would be acceptable to your husband, but have you considered raising your children without religion, and allowing them to decide their faith when they are mature enough? Could be something to consider.

It was not my decision to raise them as Muslims. Of course I want them raised as Christian but I have to let that go if I want the marriage to work.. They will always be free to choose their own faith when they are mature enough. To raise them with a faith is a must and even to me, to raise them as Islamic is better than to raise them practising nothing

Karl Hungus

Medina wrote:

It was not my decision to raise them as Muslims. Of course I want them raised as Christian but I have to let that go if I want the marriage to work. Yes and this is actually unacceptable to both of us. They will always be free to choose their own faith when they are mature enough. To raise them with a faith is a must and even to me, to raise them as Islamic is better than to raise them practising nothing

It seems to me that you are making some incredible sacrifices for the sake of wanting your marriage to work. I wonder, has your husband sacrificed as much, and if not, how do you expect things to work in an unequal partnership? Why do you have to let go of the right to raise your kids as you would prefer? What if your husband wishes you to let go of more? Are you prepared to convert to Islam for the sake of your marriage?

I understand that you're here just tring to get answers for a simple question, but I really think that you're getting yourself into something a good deal more complex than that, and knowing the answers to your questions won't help out that much in the big picture.

As someone has already mentioned, the situation is sure to come up where your Muslim children express concern for their mother burning in hell for not being a Muslim. How will you deal with that?

Hobbes

Medina wrote:

This means I will not be mixing Christian traditions/beliefs/practices with their Islamic ones.

Ahh ok. A quick google listed this as contention points, certainly with relatives of the families.

Maybe it would be better to look up "How to raise a muslim child". Would give you general rules of what may occur. But again the Husband is the better choice of information.

mountainyman

Medina wrote:

Really I need from you is the answers to my questions on Muslim child-rearing.
I will have to figure out the relationship questions on my own...

Ignore the people who say that Mixed Marriages can't work. That's rubbish.
However you need to address all these issues directly with your fiancee. It isn't a matter of what Islam says; all religions say alot of things. Make a list of questions and run through them all with your husband. Talk to an Imam first; but be sure to go to the SCR mosque (if you are in Dublin) keep the one in Clonskeagh out of things entirely. I also suggest that you insist that your husband attend the SCR Mosque.

Also the issue of schools is an important one. I would advise or strongly advise that even if your children are Muslim you send them to a Catholic school as this is the normative school experience for Irish children.

Talk to the Imam of the SCR mosque.

MM

Wibbs

First off, while this is in the islam forum for obvious reasons, it could be about any religion where one of the partners is a very devout follower. Statements like "can't handle the constant criticisms and the attitude of superiority because his religion is the 'right' religion" can be applied to most of them. I realise that you're not looking for "advice" about the relationship and I apologise if I cause offence, but I think all here Muslim or not, would urge you to take advice from as many sources as possible before seemingly jumping into a lifetime commitment that will cause problems for both of you. At the stage your relationship is in now, most engaged couples will not be wrestling with issues that are this devisive, especially over any children they might have. Picture yourself down the line when the initial romantic glow is gone.

Medina wrote:

It was not my decision to raise them as Muslims.

Why not? They will be your children too. Islam has a lot of stuff about the importance of the mother for children. Most Muslims would agree on this.

Of course I want them raised as Christian but I have to let that go if I want the marriage to work.

Again a huge issue. That will not make the marriage work. IMHO, This is not compromise, it's abdicating responsibility and that's not a good basis for an equal partnership.

They will always be free to choose their own faith when they are mature enough.

How likely is that? Even so, how would your apparently devout husband feel if they decided to become hindus, christians or atheists later on?

To raise them with a faith is a must and even to me, to raise them as Islamic is better than to raise them practising nothing

Fair enough, but that's not really the problem here is it? If your husband is already ridiculing your faith, how will this get any better in years to come. BTW given that you are a person of the book his ridicule is a bit hypocritical to say the least and many Muslims would be dubious about such ridicule. Put it this way, how would he react if you ridiculed his deeply held faith? Not happy i suspect. He should extend the same courtesy to you. the fact that he doesn't over something this important to both of you should be a warning sign for the future.

Hobbes wrote:

But again the Husband is the better choice of information.

Nail on head, as it's his precise take on Islam that's at issue here(and it seems a quite devout one, which as you point out has issues for you). All the reading in the world will only give you the general idea. Not a bad thing but in the end it's your future husbands view and your reaction to it that will decide the outcome. finding out if muslim kids can date etc should be the least of your worries.

Wibbs

mountainyman wrote:

Ignore the people who say that Mixed Marriages can't work. That's rubbish.

Agreed, it's harder but it can be done. the mixed bit is not really the problem here IMO

Talk to an Imam first; but be sure to go to the SCR mosque (if you are in Dublin) keep the one in Clonskeagh out of things entirely. I also suggest that you insist that your husband attend the SCR Mosque.

Why, is there a difference(pardon my ignorance)?

the_new_mr

Hi again Medina.

I think the main thing here to talk and talk and talk this over with your husband at length. It's really the only thing that'll sort any of this out.

Now I know that you've said that you don't want any relationship advice but I think that a lot of the people on this forum see it as very relevant.

First of all, that your fiancee is disrespectful of your religion and "trashes Christianity" isn't okay. Now, obviously different people may interpret things differently according to their feelings etc but this is not okay in Islam at all. In the Quran, God states:

An-Nahl:125
"Call thou [all mankind] unto thy Sustainer's path with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and argue with them in the most kindly manner for, behold, thy Sustainer knows best as to who strays from His path, and best knows He as to who are the right-guided."

so ridiculing is not okay.

I suspect that your fiancee's deep love for you may be causing him to be a little over zealous with the preaching. There's no question that he would want you to become Muslim but the decision is most definitely yours at the end of the day.

Al-Baqara:256
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things."

Also, it's all very well saying now that you plan to bring up the children as Muslims before they're born but you might find yourself feeling different once the children are actually born and begin practicing and believing in Islam. Please don't misunderstand this. I don't mean that you're not planning to keep your promise but we're all human after all and sometimes our feelings can get the better of us.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that a mixed marriage like this one won't work as has already been said on this thread but it's definitely difficult. I've seen mixed marriages first hand. They're not a smooth ride but they can work.

Also, just in passing, nobody can ever say who is going to hell and who isn't. It's not the right of anyone but God so no Muslim can say for sure if a Christian, Jew, Buddhist is going to hell. There's a difference between rejecting Islam when you know it's the truth and rejecting it based on ignorance. So how ignorant do you have to be to be in the clear? Only God knows that. Also, only God knows what's in a person's heart (even when a person may themselves not know) so the judgement rests completely with him and He is the Best of Judges.

I guess what I want to say is that saying things like "nanny is going to hell because she's not a Muslim" is not okay.

If you're asking what Muslim children should and shouldn't do or can and cannot do then it depends on how much detail you want.

In summary:
As I've mentioned before, belief is the main thing. The testimony of faith that "There is no god but God Himself and He has no partners and that Mohamed is His messenger" is the main thing.

Then, there's the other pillars of Islam. Prayer and fasting are only required of a Muslim once they reach the age of puberty. Still, as I've said in another thread, they are encouraged to get into it from a younger age. Zakat (almsgiving) once they have a good amount of money of their own and then of course Hajj (pilgrimmage) once in their lifetime.

As for can and cannots, there's the obvious ones (i.e. no drink, no girls/boys, no pork etc). It's likely that going to a teen disco would not be okay either since they can very easily lead to girls/boys etc. I'm not really sure what else you're looking for.

Personally speaking, if I was in a mixed faith marriage I wouldn't be okay with my children going to mass or holy communion or anything like that since these rituals rely on accepting Jesus (peace be upon him) as God and the son of God which go against the core of Islamic belief. I can't speak for your husband on this one so I'm just guessing.

Medina wrote:

is there anything else that a non-Muslim teenager takes for granted

Perhaps you could ask some specific examples? In any case, all I can tell you is the Islamic ruling (to the best of my knowledge since I'm not a scholar) but it very much depends on your husband's view. As a fellow Muslim, I would hope that he would want the same for his kids as the Islamic ruling. Also, is it really okay for a devout Christian to have a boyfriend/girlfriend?

Anyway, I hope that this all works out for the best God willing.

DinoBot

mountainyman wrote:

Also the issue of schools is an important one. I would advise or strongly advise that even if your children are Muslim you send them to a Catholic school as this is the normative school experience for Irish children.

MM

I would have a guess and say you either dont have kids or your kids are catholic. Because saying its the "normative" experience for irish children is rubbish. My kids are not Catholic, and are Irish, and if I had sent them to a Catholic school I think their experience would be far away from "normative". They would have to be taken out of religion class, out of communion class, out of confirmation class, out of christmas play, out of easter mass celebration, not to mention the hassle of not having santa .......... the list is endless.

While in a mulidenominational school they are taken out of nothing and included in everything.

Which do you think would provide a normal school experience.

Medina

Thanks The_New_Mr, your advice is very helpful and more to the point of this thread.

I thank everyone else for their input also, everybody has valid points to some degree.

Okay, Last night I sent him an email and set down the actions that I believe as 'respecting' me and my religion.
Whats in Italics are his responses to those actions.

Some will say 'why did you need to do this?'
Well the answer is for two reasons I suppose.
First to define clearly what I expect, and second because he may have misunderstood me (either deliberately or not).

• Not making judgements on me

I don’t know what exactly U mean here, but even a simple advice can be a judgement, it depends on how one sees it.

• Not criticising my religion in front of me

I don’t do that any more and I said I wud not.

• Supporting me in my religious practices by encouraging me

I'm fine that U go to a church and to join any of the religious activities as long as U don’t see my advice to you to try to graps more of a spiritual world offensive.

• Not saying my religion is wrong because to me it is not. So you can say you don't agree but you can't say its wrong..thats respecting my religion.

I don’t say this either any more, I do say I don’t agree, but U knew this soon after U met me.

• To stop pushing Islam on me

I'm not forcing Islam on you any more and U know it. If it happens implicitely then it's just because it's my wish, but I do not guide any one, nor you, only God does.
But it doesn't happen directly any more.


Well then we met and had dinner and discussed some of the finer points about children.
I have asked him to put together all the things he would expect them to do or not do, his attitude if they break the rules, we discussed how children should respect their parents but also how the respect has to be earned.
How they may find it a 'tug-o-war' as was pointed out and how we could avoid that.
I agreed to lay out all the things I would like them to be able to do so that we can then compare and come to an agreement.

Basically I think we have made the first step in the right direction, it will just remain to be seen if we can meet on some things.

The thing with him is, that he is a devout Muslim but not one of these stern, 'I'm the man of the house and my word is law' types, he is actually quite a compassionate guy who just wants to love God the best he can. Its so obvious anyone can see it when they talk to him. But I'm trying to make him see that teens as such are humans too, and that peer pressure exists, and the child will have to have a lot of inner strength and belief of their own to resist the temptations in life. But it would be nice to give them a break every now and then, and let God judge me or us for that.

Medina

mountainyman wrote:

Ignore the people who say that Mixed Marriages can't work. That's rubbish.

Talk to an Imam first; but be sure to go to the SCR mosque (if you are in Dublin) keep the one in Clonskeagh out of things entirely. I also suggest that you insist that your husband attend the SCR Mosque.

Talk to the Imam of the SCR mosque.

MM

Mountainyman, could you explain why you would recommend the SCR mosque over the Clonskeagh one?
I'm very interested to know why...

the_new_mr

Medina wrote:

Thanks The_New_Mr, your advice is very helpful and more to the point of this thread

You're very welcome Medina I (and the rest of us here) hope to help any way we can. I ask from God that I only say things that I should and I ask for His forgiveness for things that I say that I shouldn't.

I'm glad that you're keeping us up to date with what's happening with your fiancee. Maybe it would be better if you didn't publish e-mail conversations though. I think that putting up e-mails on a forum should only be done with the consent of both parties. Jesus (peace be upon him) said "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Also, saying

Medina wrote:

because he may have misunderstood me (either deliberately or not).

makes me think that there is a lack of trust here. Perhaps this needs to be sorted out first before continuing onwards.

I'm glad that you and your fiancee are taking steps to clarify matters to eachother through good communication. Good communication and respect are the keys to a good relationship.

Before I forget, I'd just like to comment on something your fiancee said.

I do not guide any one, nor you, only God does.

This is true. No one comes to Islam unless God wills it. This is because everyone's will is bound by the will of God. Still, we are given free choice and the Quran states over and over how it is the individual who chooses one way or the other (otherwise you could make the argument that it's unfair for a non-Muslim to be held accountable for it since they didn't have a choice in the matter). So, God allows people to make their own decision about this through free will.

Anyway, it seems that you and your fiancee are trying hard to get a good understanding of what's to come in the future. Kudos to you both.

Try to think of it from every angle. The peer pressure thing is a very good point and one that should certainly be taken into account. It largely depends on the atmosphere and environment. I've seen how Muslim children having close Muslim friends that they see regularly (especially at school) helps in this because they see how others are abstaining from things as they are and don't feel like a sore thumb in the crowd.

Also consider how both of your feelings may change in the future. Especially yours. As I've said before, you may not intend to break a promise to bring the children up as Muslims but you may find yourself overwhelmed by your own emotion later on and won't be able to help it and break the promise thereby causing trouble between you and your husband as well as for the kids involved.

Anyway, I pray that all goes well. Keep us posted on how things go!

Wibbs

the_new_mr wrote:

Maybe it would be better if you didn't publish e-mail conversations though. I think that putting up e-mails on a forum should only be done with the consent of both parties. Jesus (peace be upon him) said "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Good advice from the_new_mr(and even better advice from the latter chap ). Personally I felt a bit uncomfortable reading such intimate stuff. Then again I'm over senstive.

Also, saying makes me think that there is a lack of trust here. Perhaps this needs to be sorted out first before continuing onwards.

Nail on head.

I'm glad that you and your fiancee are taking steps to clarify matters to eachother through good communication. Good communication and respect are the keys to a good relationship.

Second nail on head.

Also consider how both of your feelings may change in the future. Especially yours. As I've said before, you may not intend to break a promise to bring the children up as Muslims but you may find yourself overwhelmed by your own emotion later on and won't be able to help it and break the promise thereby causing trouble between you and your husband as well as for the kids involved.

Well worth quoting a second time.

No one comes to Islam unless God wills it. This is because everyone's will is bound by the will of God.

OT I know but is the Islamic concept of free will different to the christian idea? Sounds like predestination to my ears(some Christians thought the same though).

the_new_mr

Wibbs wrote:

OT I know but is the Islamic concept of free will different to the christian idea? Sounds like predestination to my ears(some Christians thought the same though).

Thought I'd start a new thread to prevent this one from going too off-topic.
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054956488

vanilla01

hey, i know its 2 late now for replyin on the issue of raising your children as muslims, anyway im a 16 year old girl, egyptian muslim, i was simply surfing the net to write my essay about children rearing after divorce and by accident i found what you wrote and read about ur confussion, i only signed up for this forum 2 reply you. ive read what the other responses from other people and found that most of them actualy kep asking you questions to consider but didnt really told you how a muslim child should act, i must say i dont have much knowlege on this matter i dont even have that much of good english hehe but anyway i will go on. our values as muslims are very different than nowadays values e.g we aren't allowed to have boyfriends and girlfreinds as it is for ur considered as a sin some people might say its harsh but if u loook at it another prospective you'd find that its a healthier and better way to live a girl or boy would maintain thier purity and give thier most preciouse thing to the one they'd marry. by that way ofcorse illeagal children would not be born which has been increaing in a big rate in these past few years. another e.g we have 5 prayers a day to thank god for our health, air we breath, water we drink, food we eat,being in good shape,if we count whatever god has given us we will never ever be able to count them all. i dont want 2 write a whole long essay about this matter soi guess i just have one thing 2 say that can rap it all up. why dont you yourself learn about islam check out how its like and what is the meanin of life for a muslim what is our duties and rights just check it out 4 example at amrkhaled.net or .com or just go visit a mosque and speak to a sheikh there noone can ever force ypou to go but noone cn also force you not to go at the end you have to choose whatever your heart tells you is right. in ordere to choose the path that will determine our destiny forever in order to choose our religon we must know about other religons as well not only about the one that we have been brought up on

vanilla01

hey, i know its 2 late now for replyin on the issue of raising your children as muslims, anyway im a 16 year old girl, egyptian muslim, i was simply surfing the net to write my essay about children rearing after divorce and by accident i found what you wrote and read about ur confussion, i only signed up for this forum 2 reply you. ive read what the other responses from other people and found that most of them actualy kep asking you questions to consider but didnt really told you how a muslim child should act, i must say i dont have much knowlege on this matter i dont even have that much of good english hehe but anyway i will go on. our values as muslims are very different than nowadays values e.g we aren't allowed to have boyfriends and girlfreinds as it is for ur considered as a sin some people might say its harsh but if u loook at it another prospective you'd find that its a healthier and better way to live a girl or boy would maintain thier purity and give thier most preciouse thing to the one they'd marry. by that way ofcorse illeagal children would not be born which has been increaing in a big rate in these past few years. another e.g we have 5 prayers a day to thank god for our health, air we breath, water we drink, food we eat,being in good shape,if we count whatever god has given us we will never ever be able to count them all. i dont want 2 write a whole long essay about this matter soi guess i just have one thing 2 say that can rap it all up. why dont you yourself learn about islam check out how its like and what is the meanin of life for a muslim what is our duties and rights just check it out 4 example at amrkhaled.net or .com or just go visit a mosque and speak to a sheikh there noone can ever force ypou to go but noone cn also force you not to go at the end you have to choose whatever your heart tells you is right. in ordere to choose the path that will determine our destiny forever in order to choose our religon we must know about other religons as well not only about the one that we have been brought up on

InFront

Wow pretty old thread:)

Welcome to the forum vanilla01. Also, it would be interesting to hear an update from Medina on this topic if she feels like it.:)

vanilla01

vanilla01 wrote:

e.g we aren't allowed to have boyfriends and girlfreinds as it is for ur considered as a sin some people might say its harsh but if u loook at it another prospective you'd find that its a healthier and better way to live a girl or boy would maintain thier purity and give thier most preciouse thing to the one they'd marry.

I don't see how having a bf/gf stops one giving their life to their spouse, if they were to have one...

InFront

Well it's a bit off-topic but, it's not that having a boyfriend or girlfriend prevents an individual from subsequently "devoting their life" to someone (or rather, being a good husband or wife).

The issue is that abstaining from that such transient relationship-forming behavior between women and men outside of marriage preserves the integrity and faith of all individuals concerned, and enhances the meaning and importance of marriage, and contributes to stability. As Muslims we believe that such abstinence is the most desirable method of carrying out God's will in line with His teaching.

Playboy

InFront wrote:

Well it's a bit off-topic but, it's not that having a boyfriend or girlfriend prevents an individual from subsequently "devoting their life" to someone (or rather, being a good husband or wife).

The issue is that abstaining from that such transient relationship-forming behavior between women and men outside of marriage preserves the integrity and faith of all individuals concerned, and enhances the meaning and importance of marriage, and contributes to stability. As Muslims we believe that such abstinence is the most desirable method of carrying out God's will in line with His teaching.

Could you explain that in a little more detail Infront please. I am dating a muslim girl at the moment and I am her first real relationship. Could you give me some more info regarding Islams rules regarding pre marital relationships and the rationale behind those rules. I hear stories of many many unhappy marriages in her society. Couples who married not really knowing each other very well or arranged marriages seem to be quite normal. From what I can gather these relationships break down but the couples stay together because of the importance of the family unit in Islamic culture. Are these ideas you speak of Hadith? Could u give me some feedback on this? Thanks

InFront

InFront wrote:

Well it's a bit off-topic but, it's not that having a boyfriend or girlfriend prevents an individual from subsequently "devoting their life" to someone (or rather, being a good husband or wife).

The issue is that abstaining from that such transient relationship-forming behavior between women and men outside of marriage preserves the integrity and faith of all individuals concerned, and enhances the meaning and importance of marriage, and contributes to stability. As Muslims we believe that such abstinence is the most desirable method of carrying out God's will in line with His teaching.

What meaning of marriage does it enhance, out of curiosity?
How does having a bf/gf make any change to faith?

the new mr asked:

Also, is it really okay for a devout Christian to have a boyfriend/girlfriend?

...and I'm certain it is, though the issue of abstinence still arises. Not here so much. But it's more than possible to have a relationship and be abstinent so I don't see the need to cut relationships out of the picture entirely.

I don't see how forming relationships is bad, surely not knowing about it has a bad effect on many marriages if the people don't know each other well...?

maitri

Medina, you ended up converting to Islam, didn't you?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055107683

the_new_mr

Yeah, al hamdlilAlah (praise be to God), she did indeed. I hope that things are going well for her and that she'd let us know how she's getting on.

Playboy wrote:

Could you explain that in a little more detail Infront please. I am dating a muslim girl at the moment and I am her first real relationship. Could you give me some more info regarding Islams rules regarding pre marital relationships and the rationale behind those rules. I hear stories of many many unhappy marriages in her society. Couples who married not really knowing each other very well or arranged marriages seem to be quite normal. From what I can gather these relationships break down but the couples stay together because of the importance of the family unit in Islamic culture. Are these ideas you speak of Hadith? Could u give me some feedback on this? Thanks

Tough topic. It's a huuuuuuge topic but I'll try to clarify as best I can. It might help if you ask smaller, more specific questions so that you can get more direct answers.

Islam forbids having any kind of pre-maritial relationship. This doesn't just mean no pre-maritial sex (which is a major sin) but also not being emotionally involved in the boyfriend/girlfriend sense either. The reasons for this are many. One being that being emotionally involved with someone and being alone with them can very easily lead to the "one thing led to another" situation which of course should be avoided. Another reason is that, let's face it, most relationships end up in heartbreak.... especially at a young age... so what's the point?

As for the stories about the unhappy marriages in her society, one thing I'd like to make clear is that Islam doesn't condone arranged marriages. In fact, it's completely against it. The idea of two people marrying each other without knowing each other is potentially dynamite. I think the best thing to do would be to explain how a typical relationship forms under correct Islamic guidelines.

Two people might meet at work/college or through a family member or friend in a match making kind of way or by chance and, after finding that they initially like each other, decide to get engaged. This period of engagement could be seen to be the cultural equivalent of the bf/gf thing in the west as the two individuals take the chance to get to know each other whilst not being left alone. Usually, the guy would come over to the girl's house under supervision of the family or at least so that they're still in sight or they might go out together with a chaperon from the girl's family. Once again, this is to prevent the "one thing led to another" situation as well as protect the reputations of the individuals involved.

Then, after a suitable period of engagement (usually 6 months to a couple of years depending on the finances available) and if the two people are happy with each other then they may decide to get married. Of course, they may also decide during the engagement period that they're not right for each other and that's fine. Unfortunately though, in a lot of Muslim countries today, people incorrectly view this as some kind of problem when they really shouldn't.

In summary, the main goals of following a relationship under Islamic guidelines is to, first and foremost, follow God's command, to protect the individuals hearts from unnecessary heartbreak, to protect the individuals from having their reputation tarnished (especially the girl's) and to prevent marriage out of wedlock (which can lead to all sorts of problems as previously discussed a part from taking away the special significance it should have between two married people).

I don't think I've done a very good job of explaining so, as I say, perhaps you should ask some specific questions and we can try and answer them as best as we can?

PDN

the_new_mr wrote:

and to prevent marriage out of wedlock

What is 'marriage out of wedlock'?

donaghs

the_new_mr wrote:

As for the stories about the unhappy marriages in her society, one thing I'd like to make clear is that Islam doesn't condone arranged marriages. In fact, it's completely against it. The idea of two people marrying each other without knowing each other is potentially dynamite. I think the best thing to do would be to explain how a typical relationship forms under correct Islamic guidelines.

I hear this type of thing a lot in religious discussions, particularly in relation to Islam. Its all very interesting from a theoretical point of view to give your interpretation on what a religion is supposed to be like. Not always much use when discussing real life situations involving real people in the present day. Arranged marriages are more common in the Islamic world than the post-Christian world. That's just the way it is.

I wish people could apply this logic to more situations. Might resolve problems a lot quicker.

the_new_mr

donaghs wrote:

I hear this type of thing a lot in religious discussions, particularly in relation to Islam. Its all very interesting from a theoretical point of view to give your interpretation on what a religion is supposed to be like. Not always much use when discussing real life situations involving real people in the present day. Arranged marriages are more common in the Islamic world than the post-Christian world. That's just the way it is.

I wish people could apply this logic to more situations. Might resolve problems a lot quicker.

I'm not really sure how you want me to answer that. All I can do is tell you what Islam does and doesn't contain. You can't expect Islam to be held responsible for the actions of individuals who don't comply with its teachings. The arranged marriages thing is mainly a cultural thing but, unfortunately, the people who carry out these arranged marriages (as well as the observers of them) often maintain that what goes on is in keeping with Islamic teachings.

I'd challenge any Muslim or non-Muslim to show me any Islamic text from the Quran or the authentic hadith (traditions of the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him)) that says that arranged marriages are part of Islam.

This link might be helpful in explaining a little further and contains a couple of hadith showing how arranged marriages are not okay in Islam.

And I found this one as well.

PDN wrote:

What is 'marriage out of wedlock'?

Sorry, my mistake. I meant sexual relations out of wedlock. I think I was probably going to write pre-marital relations but changed my mind while the signal was already on the way from my brain to the keyboard

the_new_mr

the_new_mr wrote:

Another reason is that, let's face it, most relationships end up in heartbreak.... especially at a young age... so what's the point?

Experience and finding out what you want in a relationship?
If you're going to apply that logic, you may as well say all lives end up in death so what's the point...

Well I didn't realise there were no arranged marriages, that's better than I thought.

Then, after a suitable period of engagement (usually 6 months to a couple of years depending on the finances available) and if the two people are happy with each other then they may decide to get married. Of course, they may also decide during the engagement period that they're not right for each other and that's fine. Unfortunately though, in a lot of Muslim countries today, people incorrectly view this as some kind of problem when they really shouldn't.

Would people break off engagements much? Is it common?

the_new_mr

bluewolf wrote:

Experience and finding out what you want in a relationship?

Unfortunately, experience in this sense usually also means some kind of sexual experience as well as emotional experience which carries all sorts of negatives with it such as conscious and sub-conscious comparisons of future spouses with past sexual partners usually leading to some kind of disappointment, people getting bad reputations (especially girls), massive foundations for unnecessary jealousy when someone's ex shows up after someone gets married and says they "just want to remain friends" and that's not to mention the possibility of STDs or people having children outside of a marriage etc etc. Most of those actually apply to emotional experience as well actually.

And what's wrong with forming your experience with someone else who's in a relationship for the first time as well? Of course, there are times where you might marry someone who's already been married and there's certainly nothing wrong with that (indeed most of the Prophet Mohamed's (peace be upon him) wives were widows). In the case of marrying someone who was married before, at least you know that that person had their relationship in keeping with God's laws. And you could also marry someone who's been in a relationship out of wedlock before but has repented towards God.

At the end of the day, it's like I said in one of my previous posts, in that anybody who believes that they shouldn't be in a relationship before marriage for religious reasons doesn't need any reason other than that they know that God doesn't want them to do it. It's just that there clearly plenty of other bonuses that go along with it. After all, God only wants what's best for us. Ask any child who honestly doesn't know who their father is because they were the product of a one night stand or a quick fling or even a few month long relationship that didn't last and you'll quickly see how open relationships are just not worth the risk for all sorts of reasons.

bluewolf wrote:

If you're going to apply that logic, you may as well say all lives end up in death so what's the point...

Not really. Life is a wonderful gift and can be enjoyed. Relationships outside of marriage are an unnecessary action which often (and usually does) leads to some kind of problem.

bluewolf wrote:

Would people break off engagements much? Is it common?

Actually, it just so happens that I found out that a friend of mine broke off his engagement today. He was a little upset about it because he was so excited about it but he's convinced it was the right decision to break it off. I guess you could say that people tend to break engagements more often than engagements in the west because usually by the time two people get engaged in the west, they're sure enough that they can get married anyway.

I know of countless relationships that followed the Islamic guidelines for relationships and I can honestly say that a large majority of them (maybe as much as 95%) are very happily married. If it works (and it really does) then you can't knock it.

moe_sizlak

the_new_mr wrote:

Unfortunately, experience in this sense usually also means some kind of sexual experience as well as emotional experience which carries all sorts of negatives with it such as conscious and sub-conscious comparisons of future spouses with past sexual partners usually leading to some kind of disappointment, people getting bad reputations (especially girls), massive foundations for unnecessary jealousy when someone's ex shows up after someone gets married and says they "just want to remain friends" and that's not to mention the possibility of STDs or people having children outside of a marriage etc etc. Most of those actually apply to emotional experience as well actually.

And what's wrong with forming your experience with someone else who's in a relationship for the first time as well? Of course, there are times where you might marry someone who's already been married and there's certainly nothing wrong with that (indeed most of the Prophet Mohamed's (peace be upon him) wives were widows). In the case of marrying someone who was married before, at least you know that that person had their relationship in keeping with God's laws. And you could also marry someone who's been in a relationship out of wedlock before but has repented towards God.

At the end of the day, it's like I said in one of my previous posts, in that anybody who believes that they shouldn't be in a relationship before marriage for religious reasons doesn't need any reason other than that they know that God doesn't want them to do it. It's just that there clearly plenty of other bonuses that go along with it. After all, God only wants what's best for us. Ask any child who honestly doesn't know who their father is because they were the product of a one night stand or a quick fling or even a few month long relationship that didn't last and you'll quickly see how open relationships are just not worth the risk for all sorts of reasons.

Not really. Life is a wonderful gift and can be enjoyed. Relationships outside of marriage are an unnecessary action which often (and usually does) leads to some kind of problem.

Actually, it just so happens that I found out that a friend of mine broke off his engagement today. He was a little upset about it because he was so excited about it but he's convinced it was the right decision to break it off. I guess you could say that people tend to break engagements more often than engagements in the west because usually by the time two people get engaged in the west, they're sure enough that they can get married anyway.

I know of countless relationships that followed the Islamic guidelines for relationships and I can honestly say that a large majority of them (maybe as much as 95%) are very happily married. If it works (and it really does) then you can't knock it.

the reason theese relationships work is because only one half of that partnership has a say in it

the_new_mr

the_new_mr wrote:

Unfortunately, experience in this sense usually also means some kind of sexual experience as well as emotional experience which carries all sorts of negatives with it such as conscious and sub-conscious comparisons of future spouses with past sexual partners usually leading to some kind of disappointment

I don't mean to be rude, but someone getting too hung up over an ex is their own problem, not a reflection on relationships in general. It doesn't mean relationships should be avoided.

people getting bad reputations (especially girls)

I understand how this can be an issue, but once again, gossip is not a reason to avoid all relationships. And if a potential spouse paid too much heed to gossip, perhaps you would be better off without them in the first place.

massive foundations for unnecessary jealousy when someone's ex shows up after someone gets married and says they "just want to remain friends"

I really don't see the relevance to this, to be honest. If someone is jealous, they're going to be jealous anyway, whether an inexperienced spouse talks to a stranger, or a spouse has an ex.

and that's not to mention the possibility of STDs or people having children outside of a marriage etc etc. Most of those actually apply to emotional experience as well actually.

What's wrong with children outside of marriage? Assuming a happy relationship is already in place...?

And what's wrong with forming your experience with someone else who's in a relationship for the first time as well?

Well nothing if you really want to do it that way and you are comfortable enough in yourself and with them to make it work, but that doesn't mean there should be a restriction on everyone?

At the end of the day, it's like I said in one of my previous posts, in that anybody who believes that they shouldn't be in a relationship before marriage for religious reasons doesn't need any reason other than that they know that God doesn't want them to do it. It's just that there clearly plenty of other bonuses that go along with it. After all, God only wants what's best for us. Ask any child who honestly doesn't know who their father is because they were the product of a one night stand or a quick fling or even a few month long relationship that didn't last and you'll quickly see how open relationships are just not worth the risk for all sorts of reasons.

What about a child whose parents are in an unhappy marriage...?

As for religious reasons, I've no problem with looking at it that way and I'm not going to argue that with you at all. I just picked up on this because of the other justifications you were trying to make.

Not really. Life is a wonderful gift and can be enjoyed. Relationships outside of marriage are an unnecessary action which often (and usually does) leads to some kind of problem.

Sometimes we learn from making mistakes rather than avoiding the whole thing. I don't see relationships as unecessary at all, but we have two different viewpoints entirely so I don't suppose there's a point pursuing this.

Actually, it just so happens that I found out that a friend of mine broke off his engagement today. He was a little upset about it because he was so excited about it but he's convinced it was the right decision to break it off. I guess you could say that people tend to break engagements more often than engagements in the west because usually by the time two people get engaged in the west, they're sure enough that they can get married anyway.

That's what I thought.

I know of countless relationships that followed the Islamic guidelines for relationships and I can honestly say that a large majority of them (maybe as much as 95%) are very happily married. If it works (and it really does) then you can't knock it.

True enough. Another question if you don't mind, if either the husband or wife is unhappy in marriage is there very much pressure to stay in it no matter what? Can they leave? Does that happen?

the_new_mr

moe_sizlak wrote:

the reason theese relationships work is because only one half of that partnership has a say in it

Attacking Islam isn't allowed on this forum. Please read the forum charter. You're allowed to discuss any point you like as long as it isn't in an attacking manner but making such sweeping remarks without anything to back up your argument is not okay. I'm not going to ban you straight away so we'll make this a warning.

bluewolf wrote:

I don't mean to be rude, but someone getting too hung up over an ex is their own problem, not a reflection on relationships in general. It doesn't mean relationships should be avoided.

Someone can't help it if their mind goes away and makes comparisons on its own.

bluewolf wrote:

I understand how this can be an issue, but once again, gossip is not a reason to avoid all relationships.

Nobody likes to be thought of as cheap and this tends to happen all too easily unfortunately because, right or wrong (and it is of course wrong in my opinion), people do talk.

bluewolf wrote:

Well nothing if you really want to do it that way and you are comfortable enough in yourself and with them to make it work, but that doesn't mean there should be a restriction on everyone?

It's not so much a reason for a restriction but more an answer to the idea that you're supposed to get some relationship experience before getting into the "real" relationship or something. I think most people know in their heart of hearts that they're not doing it for experience. They're doing it because they want an emotional tie with someone and/or sexual experiences NOW instead of later.

The thing is, with the situation as it is with people not having to get married to have sex etc, men are having a sweet deal. They get to go around sleeping with whoever they can (not that I agree with that of course) and if they get into a relationship, they get more or less guaranteed sex off the same person for a period of time but they're not committed so they can leave any time even after getting the woman pregnant. Women, on the other hand, have to be very careful with the number of partners they have or risk being labelled a slut and when they finally do land a man in some sort of relationship they are essentially at his mercy as he may get up and leave while he's looking for what he thinks is a better deal while she has to start all over again and this may well be after he's gotten her pregnant so then she has to go looking for a partner in that state which any woman in that situation can tell you is exponentially more difficult.

I mean, is it right that a man should be allowed to stay in a relationship with a woman in the boyfriend-girlfriend state but not want to commit to an engagement? Isn't that him sort of saying "I'm staying with you for not but I'm not sure you're the one but you'll do for now I suppose" and if she mentions marriage at all then she risks being called a nag and could push him away.

Is it fair? Not at all. Marriage is the best answer really.

bluewolf wrote:

What about a child whose parents are in an unhappy marriage...?

There's always divorce if it comes to that but, as far as I know, it's a lot less psychologically damaging to a child to have their parents split up rather than for a child to not even know who is father is or to have ever have known him.

bluewolf wrote:

As for religious reasons, I've no problem with looking at it that way and I'm not going to argue that with you at all. I just picked up on this because of the other justifications you were trying to make.

Yeah, I understand that. I don't expect for you to agree with me on the religious side of it if you don't want to.

bluewolf wrote:

True enough. Another question if you don't mind, if either the husband or wife is unhappy in marriage is there very much pressure to stay in it no matter what? Can they leave? Does that happen?

There's no pressure at all. If it's not working out then that's that really. It is said that divorce is the most disliked of things that God has made permissible and a couple should try their very best to work things out if they can especially if they have children. But, if there's no use then staying in the relationship does more harm than good really so divorce is the better solution.

There is a hadith (tradition of the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him)) that talks of a woman who wanted to divorce her husband. I can't remember the details so may God forgive me for paraphrasing as best I can. A woman came to the Prophet and said that she didn't want to stay married to her husband any more. The Prophet asked some questions like "Is he bad to you?", "Do you not like the look of him?" "Is he not fulfilling his duties?" and things like that to which the woman replied that there wasn't really anything wrong with him but it was just that she couldn't stand to live with him (the first occurrence of the "It isn't you, it's me" speech? ). The Prophet commanded that the wedding be annulled.

So, like I was saying before, the Islamic guidelines work and tend to produce happy marriages a large majority of the time. These days, the divorce rate in the west is 50% and I know that there are some marriages in the Islamic world where the couple probably should get divorced but, in my experience, this is rarely the case. And not only that, but following Islamic guidelines removes the problems of STDs, fatherless children etc etc.

Doesn't it seem like the perfect system?

Orion

Medina wrote:

When I try to explain this to him, he simply tries to prove that Islam is the right religion by going through the scientific proofs etc in Islam.

I know I'm quoting a very old post but the thread was on the front page and piqued my interest. This particular line made me blink a lot and say "you what!" There is no scientific proof for any religion - if there was there would be no religion.

Some people who've already posted here know me for the card carrying atheist that I am but I never disrespect any religion to a religious person (in private with family or friends I do regularly ofc )or attempt to 'convert' anyone to the true athiesm so don't take this as a troll post. Islam is one religion I know very little about apart from it being Abrahamic and I did study some Islamic philosophers (they were the ones who re-discovered Aristotle after all and pissed off Rome by doing so). But philosophy is not religion. Am I rambling? Yes I am - I'll stop now

the_new_mr

the_new_mr wrote:

Someone can't help it if their mind goes away and makes comparisons on its own.

Then they can make it productive and work on improving whatever needs work in the current relationship.
There's nothing stopping someone with no experience thinking "I'm not happy, things could be better". Same thing. Either way, it would boil down to a problem in the current relationship.

Nobody likes to be thought of as cheap and this tends to happen all too easily unfortunately because, right or wrong (and it is of course wrong in my opinion), people do talk.

To be honest, none of my friends gossip like that about the others unless there's something wrong.
There's a point where it's just someone else's business and as long as they're happy in it, it's up to them.
Gossip may happen, but it certainly doesn't always, and it really isn't a reason to avoid relationships. Perhaps of course since they're not done in east, there would be far more talk, but in my experience here there isn't.

It's not so much a reason for a restriction but more an answer to the idea that you're supposed to get some relationship experience before getting into the "real" relationship or something. I think most people know in their heart of hearts that they're not doing it for experience. They're doing it because they want an emotional tie with someone and/or sexual experiences NOW instead of later.

Well yes, but you asked the point of that if it was possibly going to end and I was saying experience is involved.

The thing is, with the situation as it is with people not having to get married to have sex etc

- if I may take this line on its own.
Does it not seem to you that people might get married with a heavy influence on wanting to have sex? A relationship based on it isn't exactly ideal, but one doesn't need to be having the sex for the relationship to be based on it.

men are having a sweet deal. They get to go around sleeping with whoever they can (not that I agree with that of course) and if they get into a relationship, they get more or less guaranteed sex off the same person for a period of time but they're not committed so they can leave any time even after getting the woman pregnant. Is it fair? Not at all. Marriage is the best answer really.

That seems a little unfair to men in general, don't you think?
And to women who can't tell if a man is committed in their relationship or not?
It's not necessarily flings we are talking about here. There's a lot invested in a long term relationship, emotion, time, etc. If the only thing keeping a couple together is being legally bound, I think there are far more problems there already. I'm not married, but I can't imagine getting that ceremony makes you an entirely different person. Nor could it lay a whole foundation of trust if there's none there already.

And of course someone can still walk out the door on a spouse - there's seperation as well as divorce.
No, I think it's highly unfair to say people who are not married are not committed.

There's always divorce if it comes to that but, as far as I know, it's a lot less psychologically damaging to a child to have their parents split up rather than for a child to not even know who is father is or to have ever have known him.

I wouldn't necessarily agree, though personal experience makes me biased. Time to look up studies or something, maybe.

...

So, like I was saying before, the Islamic guidelines work and tend to produce happy marriages a large majority of the time. These days, the divorce rate in the west is 50% and I know that there are some marriages in the Islamic world where the couple probably should get divorced but, in my experience, this is rarely the case. And not only that, but following Islamic guidelines removes the problems of STDs, fatherless children etc etc.

Doesn't it seem like the perfect system?

The divorce rate quoted in America is 50%+, I'm not sure it applies anywhere around here.
And any system can seem perfect on paper, but I would be hesitant to believe it always works out in practice.

the_new_mr

Well, that's what I keep saying, it does work in practice, not just on paper. I've seen it time and time again. Sorry, but there's just no faulting it.

bluewolf wrote:

To be honest, none of my friends gossip like that about the others unless there's something wrong.

Are you male or female bluewolf? I'm just asking because I know how males gossip. I remember hanging out with friends after they'd been out clubbing the night before and about 50% of their talk was who went with who and how a few girls would "sleep with anyone because she's gagging for it". It's not right but it's true and that's how most guys talk.

bluewolf wrote:

Does it not seem to you that people might get married with a heavy influence on wanting to have sex? A relationship based on it isn't exactly ideal, but one doesn't need to be having the sex for the relationship to be based on it.

I think you'll have to give people who don't have sex before marriage a little more credit than that. I'm a little offended by that I have to say. It's as if you're saying that the sexual desire will completely override any sort of emotional feeling or common sense.

bluewolf wrote:

That seems a little unfair to men in general, don't you think?

Honestly? No I don't. It's what happens. Look around you. Marriage provides an extra level of commitment because it actually binds people legally and financially. The guy can't just get up and leave without there being consequences so he won't get into it in the first place unless he's sure he wants to. Isn't that better too? Isn't it better to have someone in a relationship that you're sure they want to be in it because they went that extra mile and got married which shows the extra commitment?

the_new_mr

the_new_mr wrote:

Well, that's what I keep saying, it does work in practice, not just on paper. I've seen it time and time again. Sorry, but there's just no faulting it.

While I appreciate your personal experience, I suppose it's still on a small enough level. Same for me as well, really.

Are you male or female bluewolf? I'm just asking because I know how males gossip. I remember hanging out with friends after they'd been out clubbing the night before and about 50% of their talk was who went with who and how a few girls would "sleep with anyone because she's gagging for it". It's not right but it's true and that's how most guys talk.

Come now - I really don't think you can speak for most guys. Particularly if you're not including guys who aren't interested in clubbing and random scoring. Of course some do, but I'm saying that not all do and getting to know someone gives you a fair idea.
Oh, I'm female.
Incidentally, if the girls weren't sleeping with just anyone, it hardly matters a whit if a few young lads are gossiping. Anyone genuinely interested in her would see through it quickly enough.
And if they would just sleep with anyone, that's a different story.

I think you'll have to give people who don't have sex before marriage a little more credit than that. I'm a little offended by that I have to say. It's as if you're saying that the sexual desire will completely override any sort of emotional feeling or common sense.

But your phrasing of "people getting married to have sex" brings that to mind.
I'll take your answer as a simple no, then.

Honestly? No I don't. It's what happens. Look around you. Marriage provides an extra level of commitment because it actually binds people legally and financially. The guy can't just get up and leave without there being consequences so he won't get into it in the first place unless he's sure he wants to. Isn't that better too? Isn't it better to have someone in a relationship that you're sure they want to be in it because they went that extra mile and got married which shows the extra commitment?

I think it's better to be in a relationship where the person stays because they want to, not because they have to.

It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive, but that's my answer to your question.