Rules of Islam for raising children for a Non-Muslim

vanilla01

hey, i know its 2 late now for replyin on the issue of raising your children as muslims, anyway im a 16 year old girl, egyptian muslim, i was simply surfing the net to write my essay about children rearing after divorce and by accident i found what you wrote and read about ur confussion, i only signed up for this forum 2 reply you. ive read what the other responses from other people and found that most of them actualy kep asking you questions to consider but didnt really told you how a muslim child should act, i must say i dont have much knowlege on this matter i dont even have that much of good english hehe but anyway i will go on. our values as muslims are very different than nowadays values e.g we aren't allowed to have boyfriends and girlfreinds as it is for ur considered as a sin some people might say its harsh but if u loook at it another prospective you'd find that its a healthier and better way to live a girl or boy would maintain thier purity and give thier most preciouse thing to the one they'd marry. by that way ofcorse illeagal children would not be born which has been increaing in a big rate in these past few years. another e.g we have 5 prayers a day to thank god for our health, air we breath, water we drink, food we eat,being in good shape,if we count whatever god has given us we will never ever be able to count them all. i dont want 2 write a whole long essay about this matter soi guess i just have one thing 2 say that can rap it all up. why dont you yourself learn about islam check out how its like and what is the meanin of life for a muslim what is our duties and rights just check it out 4 example at amrkhaled.net or .com or just go visit a mosque and speak to a sheikh there noone can ever force ypou to go but noone cn also force you not to go at the end you have to choose whatever your heart tells you is right. in ordere to choose the path that will determine our destiny forever in order to choose our religon we must know about other religons as well not only about the one that we have been brought up on

InFront

Wow pretty old thread:)

Welcome to the forum vanilla01. Also, it would be interesting to hear an update from Medina on this topic if she feels like it.:)

vanilla01

vanilla01 wrote:

e.g we aren't allowed to have boyfriends and girlfreinds as it is for ur considered as a sin some people might say its harsh but if u loook at it another prospective you'd find that its a healthier and better way to live a girl or boy would maintain thier purity and give thier most preciouse thing to the one they'd marry.

I don't see how having a bf/gf stops one giving their life to their spouse, if they were to have one...

InFront

Well it's a bit off-topic but, it's not that having a boyfriend or girlfriend prevents an individual from subsequently "devoting their life" to someone (or rather, being a good husband or wife).

The issue is that abstaining from that such transient relationship-forming behavior between women and men outside of marriage preserves the integrity and faith of all individuals concerned, and enhances the meaning and importance of marriage, and contributes to stability. As Muslims we believe that such abstinence is the most desirable method of carrying out God's will in line with His teaching.

Playboy

InFront wrote:

Well it's a bit off-topic but, it's not that having a boyfriend or girlfriend prevents an individual from subsequently "devoting their life" to someone (or rather, being a good husband or wife).

The issue is that abstaining from that such transient relationship-forming behavior between women and men outside of marriage preserves the integrity and faith of all individuals concerned, and enhances the meaning and importance of marriage, and contributes to stability. As Muslims we believe that such abstinence is the most desirable method of carrying out God's will in line with His teaching.

Could you explain that in a little more detail Infront please. I am dating a muslim girl at the moment and I am her first real relationship. Could you give me some more info regarding Islams rules regarding pre marital relationships and the rationale behind those rules. I hear stories of many many unhappy marriages in her society. Couples who married not really knowing each other very well or arranged marriages seem to be quite normal. From what I can gather these relationships break down but the couples stay together because of the importance of the family unit in Islamic culture. Are these ideas you speak of Hadith? Could u give me some feedback on this? Thanks

InFront

InFront wrote:

Well it's a bit off-topic but, it's not that having a boyfriend or girlfriend prevents an individual from subsequently "devoting their life" to someone (or rather, being a good husband or wife).

The issue is that abstaining from that such transient relationship-forming behavior between women and men outside of marriage preserves the integrity and faith of all individuals concerned, and enhances the meaning and importance of marriage, and contributes to stability. As Muslims we believe that such abstinence is the most desirable method of carrying out God's will in line with His teaching.

What meaning of marriage does it enhance, out of curiosity?
How does having a bf/gf make any change to faith?

the new mr asked:

Also, is it really okay for a devout Christian to have a boyfriend/girlfriend?

...and I'm certain it is, though the issue of abstinence still arises. Not here so much. But it's more than possible to have a relationship and be abstinent so I don't see the need to cut relationships out of the picture entirely.

I don't see how forming relationships is bad, surely not knowing about it has a bad effect on many marriages if the people don't know each other well...?

maitri

Medina, you ended up converting to Islam, didn't you?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055107683

the_new_mr

Yeah, al hamdlilAlah (praise be to God), she did indeed. I hope that things are going well for her and that she'd let us know how she's getting on.

Playboy wrote:

Could you explain that in a little more detail Infront please. I am dating a muslim girl at the moment and I am her first real relationship. Could you give me some more info regarding Islams rules regarding pre marital relationships and the rationale behind those rules. I hear stories of many many unhappy marriages in her society. Couples who married not really knowing each other very well or arranged marriages seem to be quite normal. From what I can gather these relationships break down but the couples stay together because of the importance of the family unit in Islamic culture. Are these ideas you speak of Hadith? Could u give me some feedback on this? Thanks

Tough topic. It's a huuuuuuge topic but I'll try to clarify as best I can. It might help if you ask smaller, more specific questions so that you can get more direct answers.

Islam forbids having any kind of pre-maritial relationship. This doesn't just mean no pre-maritial sex (which is a major sin) but also not being emotionally involved in the boyfriend/girlfriend sense either. The reasons for this are many. One being that being emotionally involved with someone and being alone with them can very easily lead to the "one thing led to another" situation which of course should be avoided. Another reason is that, let's face it, most relationships end up in heartbreak.... especially at a young age... so what's the point?

As for the stories about the unhappy marriages in her society, one thing I'd like to make clear is that Islam doesn't condone arranged marriages. In fact, it's completely against it. The idea of two people marrying each other without knowing each other is potentially dynamite. I think the best thing to do would be to explain how a typical relationship forms under correct Islamic guidelines.

Two people might meet at work/college or through a family member or friend in a match making kind of way or by chance and, after finding that they initially like each other, decide to get engaged. This period of engagement could be seen to be the cultural equivalent of the bf/gf thing in the west as the two individuals take the chance to get to know each other whilst not being left alone. Usually, the guy would come over to the girl's house under supervision of the family or at least so that they're still in sight or they might go out together with a chaperon from the girl's family. Once again, this is to prevent the "one thing led to another" situation as well as protect the reputations of the individuals involved.

Then, after a suitable period of engagement (usually 6 months to a couple of years depending on the finances available) and if the two people are happy with each other then they may decide to get married. Of course, they may also decide during the engagement period that they're not right for each other and that's fine. Unfortunately though, in a lot of Muslim countries today, people incorrectly view this as some kind of problem when they really shouldn't.

In summary, the main goals of following a relationship under Islamic guidelines is to, first and foremost, follow God's command, to protect the individuals hearts from unnecessary heartbreak, to protect the individuals from having their reputation tarnished (especially the girl's) and to prevent marriage out of wedlock (which can lead to all sorts of problems as previously discussed a part from taking away the special significance it should have between two married people).

I don't think I've done a very good job of explaining so, as I say, perhaps you should ask some specific questions and we can try and answer them as best as we can?

PDN

the_new_mr wrote:

and to prevent marriage out of wedlock

What is 'marriage out of wedlock'?

donaghs

the_new_mr wrote:

As for the stories about the unhappy marriages in her society, one thing I'd like to make clear is that Islam doesn't condone arranged marriages. In fact, it's completely against it. The idea of two people marrying each other without knowing each other is potentially dynamite. I think the best thing to do would be to explain how a typical relationship forms under correct Islamic guidelines.

I hear this type of thing a lot in religious discussions, particularly in relation to Islam. Its all very interesting from a theoretical point of view to give your interpretation on what a religion is supposed to be like. Not always much use when discussing real life situations involving real people in the present day. Arranged marriages are more common in the Islamic world than the post-Christian world. That's just the way it is.

I wish people could apply this logic to more situations. Might resolve problems a lot quicker.

the_new_mr

donaghs wrote:

I hear this type of thing a lot in religious discussions, particularly in relation to Islam. Its all very interesting from a theoretical point of view to give your interpretation on what a religion is supposed to be like. Not always much use when discussing real life situations involving real people in the present day. Arranged marriages are more common in the Islamic world than the post-Christian world. That's just the way it is.

I wish people could apply this logic to more situations. Might resolve problems a lot quicker.

I'm not really sure how you want me to answer that. All I can do is tell you what Islam does and doesn't contain. You can't expect Islam to be held responsible for the actions of individuals who don't comply with its teachings. The arranged marriages thing is mainly a cultural thing but, unfortunately, the people who carry out these arranged marriages (as well as the observers of them) often maintain that what goes on is in keeping with Islamic teachings.

I'd challenge any Muslim or non-Muslim to show me any Islamic text from the Quran or the authentic hadith (traditions of the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him)) that says that arranged marriages are part of Islam.

This link might be helpful in explaining a little further and contains a couple of hadith showing how arranged marriages are not okay in Islam.

And I found this one as well.

PDN wrote:

What is 'marriage out of wedlock'?

Sorry, my mistake. I meant sexual relations out of wedlock. I think I was probably going to write pre-marital relations but changed my mind while the signal was already on the way from my brain to the keyboard

the_new_mr

the_new_mr wrote:

Another reason is that, let's face it, most relationships end up in heartbreak.... especially at a young age... so what's the point?

Experience and finding out what you want in a relationship?
If you're going to apply that logic, you may as well say all lives end up in death so what's the point...

Well I didn't realise there were no arranged marriages, that's better than I thought.

Then, after a suitable period of engagement (usually 6 months to a couple of years depending on the finances available) and if the two people are happy with each other then they may decide to get married. Of course, they may also decide during the engagement period that they're not right for each other and that's fine. Unfortunately though, in a lot of Muslim countries today, people incorrectly view this as some kind of problem when they really shouldn't.

Would people break off engagements much? Is it common?

the_new_mr

bluewolf wrote:

Experience and finding out what you want in a relationship?

Unfortunately, experience in this sense usually also means some kind of sexual experience as well as emotional experience which carries all sorts of negatives with it such as conscious and sub-conscious comparisons of future spouses with past sexual partners usually leading to some kind of disappointment, people getting bad reputations (especially girls), massive foundations for unnecessary jealousy when someone's ex shows up after someone gets married and says they "just want to remain friends" and that's not to mention the possibility of STDs or people having children outside of a marriage etc etc. Most of those actually apply to emotional experience as well actually.

And what's wrong with forming your experience with someone else who's in a relationship for the first time as well? Of course, there are times where you might marry someone who's already been married and there's certainly nothing wrong with that (indeed most of the Prophet Mohamed's (peace be upon him) wives were widows). In the case of marrying someone who was married before, at least you know that that person had their relationship in keeping with God's laws. And you could also marry someone who's been in a relationship out of wedlock before but has repented towards God.

At the end of the day, it's like I said in one of my previous posts, in that anybody who believes that they shouldn't be in a relationship before marriage for religious reasons doesn't need any reason other than that they know that God doesn't want them to do it. It's just that there clearly plenty of other bonuses that go along with it. After all, God only wants what's best for us. Ask any child who honestly doesn't know who their father is because they were the product of a one night stand or a quick fling or even a few month long relationship that didn't last and you'll quickly see how open relationships are just not worth the risk for all sorts of reasons.

bluewolf wrote:

If you're going to apply that logic, you may as well say all lives end up in death so what's the point...

Not really. Life is a wonderful gift and can be enjoyed. Relationships outside of marriage are an unnecessary action which often (and usually does) leads to some kind of problem.

bluewolf wrote:

Would people break off engagements much? Is it common?

Actually, it just so happens that I found out that a friend of mine broke off his engagement today. He was a little upset about it because he was so excited about it but he's convinced it was the right decision to break it off. I guess you could say that people tend to break engagements more often than engagements in the west because usually by the time two people get engaged in the west, they're sure enough that they can get married anyway.

I know of countless relationships that followed the Islamic guidelines for relationships and I can honestly say that a large majority of them (maybe as much as 95%) are very happily married. If it works (and it really does) then you can't knock it.

moe_sizlak

the_new_mr wrote:

Unfortunately, experience in this sense usually also means some kind of sexual experience as well as emotional experience which carries all sorts of negatives with it such as conscious and sub-conscious comparisons of future spouses with past sexual partners usually leading to some kind of disappointment, people getting bad reputations (especially girls), massive foundations for unnecessary jealousy when someone's ex shows up after someone gets married and says they "just want to remain friends" and that's not to mention the possibility of STDs or people having children outside of a marriage etc etc. Most of those actually apply to emotional experience as well actually.

And what's wrong with forming your experience with someone else who's in a relationship for the first time as well? Of course, there are times where you might marry someone who's already been married and there's certainly nothing wrong with that (indeed most of the Prophet Mohamed's (peace be upon him) wives were widows). In the case of marrying someone who was married before, at least you know that that person had their relationship in keeping with God's laws. And you could also marry someone who's been in a relationship out of wedlock before but has repented towards God.

At the end of the day, it's like I said in one of my previous posts, in that anybody who believes that they shouldn't be in a relationship before marriage for religious reasons doesn't need any reason other than that they know that God doesn't want them to do it. It's just that there clearly plenty of other bonuses that go along with it. After all, God only wants what's best for us. Ask any child who honestly doesn't know who their father is because they were the product of a one night stand or a quick fling or even a few month long relationship that didn't last and you'll quickly see how open relationships are just not worth the risk for all sorts of reasons.

Not really. Life is a wonderful gift and can be enjoyed. Relationships outside of marriage are an unnecessary action which often (and usually does) leads to some kind of problem.

Actually, it just so happens that I found out that a friend of mine broke off his engagement today. He was a little upset about it because he was so excited about it but he's convinced it was the right decision to break it off. I guess you could say that people tend to break engagements more often than engagements in the west because usually by the time two people get engaged in the west, they're sure enough that they can get married anyway.

I know of countless relationships that followed the Islamic guidelines for relationships and I can honestly say that a large majority of them (maybe as much as 95%) are very happily married. If it works (and it really does) then you can't knock it.

the reason theese relationships work is because only one half of that partnership has a say in it

the_new_mr

the_new_mr wrote:

Unfortunately, experience in this sense usually also means some kind of sexual experience as well as emotional experience which carries all sorts of negatives with it such as conscious and sub-conscious comparisons of future spouses with past sexual partners usually leading to some kind of disappointment

I don't mean to be rude, but someone getting too hung up over an ex is their own problem, not a reflection on relationships in general. It doesn't mean relationships should be avoided.

people getting bad reputations (especially girls)

I understand how this can be an issue, but once again, gossip is not a reason to avoid all relationships. And if a potential spouse paid too much heed to gossip, perhaps you would be better off without them in the first place.

massive foundations for unnecessary jealousy when someone's ex shows up after someone gets married and says they "just want to remain friends"

I really don't see the relevance to this, to be honest. If someone is jealous, they're going to be jealous anyway, whether an inexperienced spouse talks to a stranger, or a spouse has an ex.

and that's not to mention the possibility of STDs or people having children outside of a marriage etc etc. Most of those actually apply to emotional experience as well actually.

What's wrong with children outside of marriage? Assuming a happy relationship is already in place...?

And what's wrong with forming your experience with someone else who's in a relationship for the first time as well?

Well nothing if you really want to do it that way and you are comfortable enough in yourself and with them to make it work, but that doesn't mean there should be a restriction on everyone?

At the end of the day, it's like I said in one of my previous posts, in that anybody who believes that they shouldn't be in a relationship before marriage for religious reasons doesn't need any reason other than that they know that God doesn't want them to do it. It's just that there clearly plenty of other bonuses that go along with it. After all, God only wants what's best for us. Ask any child who honestly doesn't know who their father is because they were the product of a one night stand or a quick fling or even a few month long relationship that didn't last and you'll quickly see how open relationships are just not worth the risk for all sorts of reasons.

What about a child whose parents are in an unhappy marriage...?

As for religious reasons, I've no problem with looking at it that way and I'm not going to argue that with you at all. I just picked up on this because of the other justifications you were trying to make.

Not really. Life is a wonderful gift and can be enjoyed. Relationships outside of marriage are an unnecessary action which often (and usually does) leads to some kind of problem.

Sometimes we learn from making mistakes rather than avoiding the whole thing. I don't see relationships as unecessary at all, but we have two different viewpoints entirely so I don't suppose there's a point pursuing this.

Actually, it just so happens that I found out that a friend of mine broke off his engagement today. He was a little upset about it because he was so excited about it but he's convinced it was the right decision to break it off. I guess you could say that people tend to break engagements more often than engagements in the west because usually by the time two people get engaged in the west, they're sure enough that they can get married anyway.

That's what I thought.

I know of countless relationships that followed the Islamic guidelines for relationships and I can honestly say that a large majority of them (maybe as much as 95%) are very happily married. If it works (and it really does) then you can't knock it.

True enough. Another question if you don't mind, if either the husband or wife is unhappy in marriage is there very much pressure to stay in it no matter what? Can they leave? Does that happen?

the_new_mr

moe_sizlak wrote:

the reason theese relationships work is because only one half of that partnership has a say in it

Attacking Islam isn't allowed on this forum. Please read the forum charter. You're allowed to discuss any point you like as long as it isn't in an attacking manner but making such sweeping remarks without anything to back up your argument is not okay. I'm not going to ban you straight away so we'll make this a warning.

bluewolf wrote:

I don't mean to be rude, but someone getting too hung up over an ex is their own problem, not a reflection on relationships in general. It doesn't mean relationships should be avoided.

Someone can't help it if their mind goes away and makes comparisons on its own.

bluewolf wrote:

I understand how this can be an issue, but once again, gossip is not a reason to avoid all relationships.

Nobody likes to be thought of as cheap and this tends to happen all too easily unfortunately because, right or wrong (and it is of course wrong in my opinion), people do talk.

bluewolf wrote:

Well nothing if you really want to do it that way and you are comfortable enough in yourself and with them to make it work, but that doesn't mean there should be a restriction on everyone?

It's not so much a reason for a restriction but more an answer to the idea that you're supposed to get some relationship experience before getting into the "real" relationship or something. I think most people know in their heart of hearts that they're not doing it for experience. They're doing it because they want an emotional tie with someone and/or sexual experiences NOW instead of later.

The thing is, with the situation as it is with people not having to get married to have sex etc, men are having a sweet deal. They get to go around sleeping with whoever they can (not that I agree with that of course) and if they get into a relationship, they get more or less guaranteed sex off the same person for a period of time but they're not committed so they can leave any time even after getting the woman pregnant. Women, on the other hand, have to be very careful with the number of partners they have or risk being labelled a slut and when they finally do land a man in some sort of relationship they are essentially at his mercy as he may get up and leave while he's looking for what he thinks is a better deal while she has to start all over again and this may well be after he's gotten her pregnant so then she has to go looking for a partner in that state which any woman in that situation can tell you is exponentially more difficult.

I mean, is it right that a man should be allowed to stay in a relationship with a woman in the boyfriend-girlfriend state but not want to commit to an engagement? Isn't that him sort of saying "I'm staying with you for not but I'm not sure you're the one but you'll do for now I suppose" and if she mentions marriage at all then she risks being called a nag and could push him away.

Is it fair? Not at all. Marriage is the best answer really.

bluewolf wrote:

What about a child whose parents are in an unhappy marriage...?

There's always divorce if it comes to that but, as far as I know, it's a lot less psychologically damaging to a child to have their parents split up rather than for a child to not even know who is father is or to have ever have known him.

bluewolf wrote:

As for religious reasons, I've no problem with looking at it that way and I'm not going to argue that with you at all. I just picked up on this because of the other justifications you were trying to make.

Yeah, I understand that. I don't expect for you to agree with me on the religious side of it if you don't want to.

bluewolf wrote:

True enough. Another question if you don't mind, if either the husband or wife is unhappy in marriage is there very much pressure to stay in it no matter what? Can they leave? Does that happen?

There's no pressure at all. If it's not working out then that's that really. It is said that divorce is the most disliked of things that God has made permissible and a couple should try their very best to work things out if they can especially if they have children. But, if there's no use then staying in the relationship does more harm than good really so divorce is the better solution.

There is a hadith (tradition of the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him)) that talks of a woman who wanted to divorce her husband. I can't remember the details so may God forgive me for paraphrasing as best I can. A woman came to the Prophet and said that she didn't want to stay married to her husband any more. The Prophet asked some questions like "Is he bad to you?", "Do you not like the look of him?" "Is he not fulfilling his duties?" and things like that to which the woman replied that there wasn't really anything wrong with him but it was just that she couldn't stand to live with him (the first occurrence of the "It isn't you, it's me" speech? ). The Prophet commanded that the wedding be annulled.

So, like I was saying before, the Islamic guidelines work and tend to produce happy marriages a large majority of the time. These days, the divorce rate in the west is 50% and I know that there are some marriages in the Islamic world where the couple probably should get divorced but, in my experience, this is rarely the case. And not only that, but following Islamic guidelines removes the problems of STDs, fatherless children etc etc.

Doesn't it seem like the perfect system?

Orion

Medina wrote:

When I try to explain this to him, he simply tries to prove that Islam is the right religion by going through the scientific proofs etc in Islam.

I know I'm quoting a very old post but the thread was on the front page and piqued my interest. This particular line made me blink a lot and say "you what!" There is no scientific proof for any religion - if there was there would be no religion.

Some people who've already posted here know me for the card carrying atheist that I am but I never disrespect any religion to a religious person (in private with family or friends I do regularly ofc )or attempt to 'convert' anyone to the true athiesm so don't take this as a troll post. Islam is one religion I know very little about apart from it being Abrahamic and I did study some Islamic philosophers (they were the ones who re-discovered Aristotle after all and pissed off Rome by doing so). But philosophy is not religion. Am I rambling? Yes I am - I'll stop now

the_new_mr

the_new_mr wrote:

Someone can't help it if their mind goes away and makes comparisons on its own.

Then they can make it productive and work on improving whatever needs work in the current relationship.
There's nothing stopping someone with no experience thinking "I'm not happy, things could be better". Same thing. Either way, it would boil down to a problem in the current relationship.

Nobody likes to be thought of as cheap and this tends to happen all too easily unfortunately because, right or wrong (and it is of course wrong in my opinion), people do talk.

To be honest, none of my friends gossip like that about the others unless there's something wrong.
There's a point where it's just someone else's business and as long as they're happy in it, it's up to them.
Gossip may happen, but it certainly doesn't always, and it really isn't a reason to avoid relationships. Perhaps of course since they're not done in east, there would be far more talk, but in my experience here there isn't.

It's not so much a reason for a restriction but more an answer to the idea that you're supposed to get some relationship experience before getting into the "real" relationship or something. I think most people know in their heart of hearts that they're not doing it for experience. They're doing it because they want an emotional tie with someone and/or sexual experiences NOW instead of later.

Well yes, but you asked the point of that if it was possibly going to end and I was saying experience is involved.

The thing is, with the situation as it is with people not having to get married to have sex etc

- if I may take this line on its own.
Does it not seem to you that people might get married with a heavy influence on wanting to have sex? A relationship based on it isn't exactly ideal, but one doesn't need to be having the sex for the relationship to be based on it.

men are having a sweet deal. They get to go around sleeping with whoever they can (not that I agree with that of course) and if they get into a relationship, they get more or less guaranteed sex off the same person for a period of time but they're not committed so they can leave any time even after getting the woman pregnant. Is it fair? Not at all. Marriage is the best answer really.

That seems a little unfair to men in general, don't you think?
And to women who can't tell if a man is committed in their relationship or not?
It's not necessarily flings we are talking about here. There's a lot invested in a long term relationship, emotion, time, etc. If the only thing keeping a couple together is being legally bound, I think there are far more problems there already. I'm not married, but I can't imagine getting that ceremony makes you an entirely different person. Nor could it lay a whole foundation of trust if there's none there already.

And of course someone can still walk out the door on a spouse - there's seperation as well as divorce.
No, I think it's highly unfair to say people who are not married are not committed.

There's always divorce if it comes to that but, as far as I know, it's a lot less psychologically damaging to a child to have their parents split up rather than for a child to not even know who is father is or to have ever have known him.

I wouldn't necessarily agree, though personal experience makes me biased. Time to look up studies or something, maybe.

...

So, like I was saying before, the Islamic guidelines work and tend to produce happy marriages a large majority of the time. These days, the divorce rate in the west is 50% and I know that there are some marriages in the Islamic world where the couple probably should get divorced but, in my experience, this is rarely the case. And not only that, but following Islamic guidelines removes the problems of STDs, fatherless children etc etc.

Doesn't it seem like the perfect system?

The divorce rate quoted in America is 50%+, I'm not sure it applies anywhere around here.
And any system can seem perfect on paper, but I would be hesitant to believe it always works out in practice.

the_new_mr

Well, that's what I keep saying, it does work in practice, not just on paper. I've seen it time and time again. Sorry, but there's just no faulting it.

bluewolf wrote:

To be honest, none of my friends gossip like that about the others unless there's something wrong.

Are you male or female bluewolf? I'm just asking because I know how males gossip. I remember hanging out with friends after they'd been out clubbing the night before and about 50% of their talk was who went with who and how a few girls would "sleep with anyone because she's gagging for it". It's not right but it's true and that's how most guys talk.

bluewolf wrote:

Does it not seem to you that people might get married with a heavy influence on wanting to have sex? A relationship based on it isn't exactly ideal, but one doesn't need to be having the sex for the relationship to be based on it.

I think you'll have to give people who don't have sex before marriage a little more credit than that. I'm a little offended by that I have to say. It's as if you're saying that the sexual desire will completely override any sort of emotional feeling or common sense.

bluewolf wrote:

That seems a little unfair to men in general, don't you think?

Honestly? No I don't. It's what happens. Look around you. Marriage provides an extra level of commitment because it actually binds people legally and financially. The guy can't just get up and leave without there being consequences so he won't get into it in the first place unless he's sure he wants to. Isn't that better too? Isn't it better to have someone in a relationship that you're sure they want to be in it because they went that extra mile and got married which shows the extra commitment?

the_new_mr

the_new_mr wrote:

Well, that's what I keep saying, it does work in practice, not just on paper. I've seen it time and time again. Sorry, but there's just no faulting it.

While I appreciate your personal experience, I suppose it's still on a small enough level. Same for me as well, really.

Are you male or female bluewolf? I'm just asking because I know how males gossip. I remember hanging out with friends after they'd been out clubbing the night before and about 50% of their talk was who went with who and how a few girls would "sleep with anyone because she's gagging for it". It's not right but it's true and that's how most guys talk.

Come now - I really don't think you can speak for most guys. Particularly if you're not including guys who aren't interested in clubbing and random scoring. Of course some do, but I'm saying that not all do and getting to know someone gives you a fair idea.
Oh, I'm female.
Incidentally, if the girls weren't sleeping with just anyone, it hardly matters a whit if a few young lads are gossiping. Anyone genuinely interested in her would see through it quickly enough.
And if they would just sleep with anyone, that's a different story.

I think you'll have to give people who don't have sex before marriage a little more credit than that. I'm a little offended by that I have to say. It's as if you're saying that the sexual desire will completely override any sort of emotional feeling or common sense.

But your phrasing of "people getting married to have sex" brings that to mind.
I'll take your answer as a simple no, then.

Honestly? No I don't. It's what happens. Look around you. Marriage provides an extra level of commitment because it actually binds people legally and financially. The guy can't just get up and leave without there being consequences so he won't get into it in the first place unless he's sure he wants to. Isn't that better too? Isn't it better to have someone in a relationship that you're sure they want to be in it because they went that extra mile and got married which shows the extra commitment?

I think it's better to be in a relationship where the person stays because they want to, not because they have to.

It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive, but that's my answer to your question.

moe_sizlak

the_new_mr wrote:

Attacking Islam isn't allowed on this forum. Please read the forum charter. You're allowed to discuss any point you like as long as it isn't in an attacking manner but making such sweeping remarks without anything to back up your argument is not okay. I'm not going to ban you straight away so we'll make this a warning.

Someone can't help it if their mind goes away and makes comparisons on its own.

Nobody likes to be thought of as cheap and this tends to happen all too easily unfortunately because, right or wrong (and it is of course wrong in my opinion), people do talk.

It's not so much a reason for a restriction but more an answer to the idea that you're supposed to get some relationship experience before getting into the "real" relationship or something. I think most people know in their heart of hearts that they're not doing it for experience. They're doing it because they want an emotional tie with someone and/or sexual experiences NOW instead of later.

The thing is, with the situation as it is with people not having to get married to have sex etc, men are having a sweet deal. They get to go around sleeping with whoever they can (not that I agree with that of course) and if they get into a relationship, they get more or less guaranteed sex off the same person for a period of time but they're not committed so they can leave any time even after getting the woman pregnant. Women, on the other hand, have to be very careful with the number of partners they have or risk being labelled a slut and when they finally do land a man in some sort of relationship they are essentially at his mercy as he may get up and leave while he's looking for what he thinks is a better deal while she has to start all over again and this may well be after he's gotten her pregnant so then she has to go looking for a partner in that state which any woman in that situation can tell you is exponentially more difficult.

I mean, is it right that a man should be allowed to stay in a relationship with a woman in the boyfriend-girlfriend state but not want to commit to an engagement? Isn't that him sort of saying "I'm staying with you for not but I'm not sure you're the one but you'll do for now I suppose" and if she mentions marriage at all then she risks being called a nag and could push him away.

Is it fair? Not at all. Marriage is the best answer really.

There's always divorce if it comes to that but, as far as I know, it's a lot less psychologically damaging to a child to have their parents split up rather than for a child to not even know who is father is or to have ever have known him.

Yeah, I understand that. I don't expect for you to agree with me on the religious side of it if you don't want to.

There's no pressure at all. If it's not working out then that's that really. It is said that divorce is the most disliked of things that God has made permissible and a couple should try their very best to work things out if they can especially if they have children. But, if there's no use then staying in the relationship does more harm than good really so divorce is the better solution.

There is a hadith (tradition of the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him)) that talks of a woman who wanted to divorce her husband. I can't remember the details so may God forgive me for paraphrasing as best I can. A woman came to the Prophet and said that she didn't want to stay married to her husband any more. The Prophet asked some questions like "Is he bad to you?", "Do you not like the look of him?" "Is he not fulfilling his duties?" and things like that to which the woman replied that there wasn't really anything wrong with him but it was just that she couldn't stand to live with him (the first occurrence of the "It isn't you, it's me" speech? ). The Prophet commanded that the wedding be annulled.

So, like I was saying before, the Islamic guidelines work and tend to produce happy marriages a large majority of the time. These days, the divorce rate in the west is 50% and I know that there are some marriages in the Islamic world where the couple probably should get divorced but, in my experience, this is rarely the case. And not only that, but following Islamic guidelines removes the problems of STDs, fatherless children etc etc.

Doesn't it seem like the perfect system?

where exactly did i attack anything , i made a point and did not even include the word islam

donaghs

the_new_mr wrote:

There is a hadith (tradition of the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him)) that talks of a woman who wanted to divorce her husband. I can't remember the details so may God forgive me for paraphrasing as best I can. A woman came to the Prophet and said that she didn't want to stay married to her husband any more. The Prophet asked some questions like "Is he bad to you?", "Do you not like the look of him?" "Is he not fulfilling his duties?" and things like that to which the woman replied that there wasn't really anything wrong with him but it was just that she couldn't stand to live with him (the first occurrence of the "It isn't you, it's me" speech? ). The Prophet commanded that the wedding be annulled.

So, like I was saying before, the Islamic guidelines work and tend to produce happy marriages a large majority of the time. These days, the divorce rate in the west is 50% and I know that there are some marriages in the Islamic world where the couple probably should get divorced but, in my experience, this is rarely the case. And not only that, but following Islamic guidelines removes the problems of STDs, fatherless children etc etc.

Doesn't it seem like the perfect system?

Yet again, this sounds nice in theory, but seems to go against what goes on for many families in practice - i.e. in the real world. For example, two of the reasons why honour killings occur among people of Islamic upbringing is the refusal of a woman to enter an arranged marriage, or a woman leaving a marriage against the wishes of a husband or his family. There are of course other reasons like rape and so on.

I agree with you that this is more a cultural issue than a strictly religious issue. But in real life its harder to separate the two.

Certainly as you point out there's almost no evidence in Islamic teaching to justify this. But, yet there is tolerance of it in those societies.

In years gone by in Ireland I'm sure many relationships were held together by Cultural/Religious fear of retribution for leaving. I'm sure this is far rarer now, and of course this is no justification.

Playboy

Im sorry the_new_mr but I disagree almost entirely with what you are saying. Im not going to respond point by point because Im on a m8s crappy laptop and it would take me an age (my own pc isnt working).

I have had 3 long term relationships in my life.. Im 28 years old now .. and Im glad that I didnt marry any of those girls. I loved all of them dearly and still have a friendship with 2 of them .. 1 very close friendship. I learned many things from each relationship .. about myself and what I want and need in a partner. My last relationship was practically a marriage. We lived together for 6 years and shared our finances, credit cards etc. It didnt work out for many reasons .. reasons that will enable me to have a much more fulfilling relationship with someone else. I was committed in all my relationships to a certain extent .. I wasnt ready to marry but I was open to the possibility. The reason I didnt marry was because I wanted to be sure that I was making the right decision not because I was using someone for sex or company till someone better came along.

I learned an invaluable amount from this relationship and the others I have been in. It makes me I believe a much better person ... kinder and more considerate .. not jealous, sensitive to my gf needs .. open, honest .. but most of all I know what is required to make a relationship work where both parties are happy and fulfilled. All of these things I learned in my other relationships. I was crap at relationships when I started out .. selfish, jealous, inconsiderate etc etc. I cant imagine getting married to my first partner without ever having lived with them or slept with them. Relationships are complex and multi faceted entities which require a lot of reflection, thought and most of all experience in order for them to work. I cant imagine how this perfect system in Islam works. How do you know a person is right for you when you only know them for 6 months before you marry them and all contact is supervised and you never live with them. To me the idea is almost laughable and I would believe that Islamic society is rife with uhappy marriages. I only know what I have been told though .. but what I am told is of many many unhappy marriages which stay together because of societlal pressure or the presence of kids. Now I would say that you are verging on being deluded if you think that this system i perfect. Imo it is a system designed to protect the male. Protect him in all aspects because he is viewed as a rather underdeveloped being who is incapable of change.

All this talk of jealousy, gossip, single parents etc on your part would indicate this. Jealousy is borne out of insecurity and it is you and your partners responsibility to work this out for yourselfs. It is such a destructive emotion and we shouldnt be slaves to it. Learn to deal with it instead of letting it rule your behaviour. Muslim men what from Im told and from what I have experienced are extremley jealous when it comes to women. This seems to be accepted as normal and leads to all sorts of problems for women. Women not allowed out without their partner or some kind of supervision .. confined to the house for large parts of their life etc etc. Where is the trust in this scenario? The most important thing in any relationship is trust but yet there seems to be very little trust of your partner in mainstream Islamic society. Im not saying all relationships are like this but it is the norm .. I have seen it first hand and I have many male and female muslim friends from saudi arabia, egypt, syria, lebabon, pakistan, algeria, the maldives etc etc. (I live in east london ) and they have all confirmed this as the case. The men dont see it as a problem but it makes all the females extremeley unhappy. Some of the guys even have a big problem with me dating a muslim girl even though they are not that religious and they dont know her particularly well. There seems to be some kind of ownership idea floating around .. that muslim girls are for muslim men and thats it .. and its not a religious thing, its cultural. The same guys have no problem sleeping with or dating girls outside of their own society or faith. Yet they have the cheek to approach my girlfriend and reprimand her for dating me and it wasnt just one of them but many. All from different parts of the muslim world too from egypt to india so it seems to be quite common. Men dont see women as equals in Islamic society imo and this is the first ingredient for disaster. How can you have a fulfilling and loving relationship with someone you dont consider your equal?

So extremely jealous, untrusting and unequal relationships with someone you know for 6 months under supervision is a perfect system? It takes a long time to figure out if your partner is the right one for you. You have find out if you can live with them .. knowing someone outside of a living arrangement is completley different to knowing them when living together. What a person is like in company is different to how they are when they wake up in the morning. What if you arent sexually compatible .. some people arent. Its a big part of a relationship. All of these things it is important to learn before you commit to a marriage. otherwise you are asking for trouble.

People need to grow up and stop thinking about people in terms of reputation .. who is or isnt a slut .. I mean thats school yard talk not the talk of mature adults yet you mention it frequentley in your posts? Why? The single parent problem .. is it a problem? Why not just use birth control .. again among mature adults you dont get a lot of accidental births .. more like teenagers or irresponsible adults. Your system seems to be designed to protect people from jealousy, bad reputations, single parenting etc.. and by doing this it encourages people to stay emotionally immature. If I get jealous I control it .. I dont take it out on my partner because its my problem not hers. I dont talk or gossip about peoples reputations because Im not a teenager anymore and I have learned to see past that kind of idiocy. I use birth control when Im having sex with someone hence preventing me from having children that Im not ready for. I also use condoms and Im not promiscious hence preventing me from ever contracting an std. I dont compare my partner with my other partners in the past and If I did by chance think that my last gf was better than my current one then I would think thats it time to get out of the relationship because it obviously isnt right for me .. this has never been a problem for me however. Unlike you I belive relationships outside of marriage are a necessity if a marriage is to have any chance of working ... by this i mean a realtionship where 2 people are happy not just 2 people who stay together. All of your so called problems really arent problems at all unless you arent very mature or smart.

I like your post playboy, the last paragraph is what I was trying to say.

the_new_mr

Sorry for not replying until now. My internet connection was cut off through no fault of my own. Long story really. Aaaaanyway.......

Macros42, the picture in your sig certainly has some whit to it and I found it comical enough to cause a slight smile come to my face but I thought you might be interested to know that it doesn't comply with the Islamic outlook on the matter. A verse from the Quran:

Al-Kahf:29
"And say: "The truth [has now come] from your Sustainer: let, then, him who wills, believe in it, and let him who wills, reject it...""

bluewolf wrote:

Come now - I really don't think you can speak for most guys...

It's the sad truth. Sorry to break it to you but most guys do talk like that. It's just the way it goes. How many guys in Ireland aren't interested in clubbing and random scoring? Very few is the answer to that. And, as it happens, I've heard a fair few girls talk like that too but admittedly not as much as guys.

bluewolf wrote:

I think it's better to be in a relationship where the person stays because they want to, not because they have to.

It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive, but that's my answer to your question.

I think you misunderstood me there. I didn't mean that someone stays in a relationship because they have to and not because they want to. What I meant was that someone won't get married unless they really are committed to the relationship in the first place. It's like saying "I'm so committed to you and this relationship that I'm willing to get married so that we are legally and financially bound to each other because I believe we're going to stay together" whereas if two people aren't married, whether they like it or not, they may be thinking in their sub-conscious that "I'm in this relationship and I'm committed but I'm probably not committed enough to go that final step so let's leave it like this because somewhere in my mind there's some doubt about the future of this relationship".

I saw an episode of Dr. Phil there recently (I don't watch it really but was channel flicking and it seemed interesting) and there was a couple of who had been bf/gf for about 7 years or something and the guy was just so reluctant to get married that he was crying before their wedding. Eventually, they got married and he said that he was doing the marriage on a trial basis and she was in shock etc etc. Anyway, the point is that he had her tied down in a relationship for 7 years but clearly wasn't committed enough to her to feel that he wanted to marry her. Not only that, even though he said that he loved her, he also said at one point in the program something like "[Her name] is nicer than a wide majority of women I've met". Dr. Phil made note of the "wide majority of women" bit. I mean, why think like that?

moe_sizlak wrote:

where exactly did i attack anything , i made a point and did not even include the word islam

I won't even dignify that with an answer.

donaghs wrote:

Yet again, this sounds nice in theory, but seems to go against what goes on for many families in practice - i.e. in the real world. For example, two of the reasons why honour killings occur among people of Islamic upbringing is the refusal of a woman to enter an arranged marriage, or a woman leaving a marriage against the wishes of a husband or his family.

And, yet again, I'm forced to tell you that none of this is part of Islam. You're asking me to answer issues you have with people who do these actions despite them not actually being part of Islam.

If people believe that a particular action (such as arranged marriages) are part of Islam then for sure there is a responsibility on the scholars to make that clear but unfortunately some people can be so stubborn that something is part of Islam that they just won't hear otherwise. They've mixed culture and religion to such a point that they honestly believe not doing what their fathers did would make them a bad Muslim. The most responsibility and blame lies on these people who aren't willing to educate themselves about their own religion. It makes me sad.

donaghs wrote:

In years gone by in Ireland I'm sure many relationships were held together by Cultural/Religious fear of retribution for leaving. I'm sure this is far rarer now, and of course this is no justification.

I think it's clear from my posts that this is not okay in Islam.

Playboy wrote:

have had 3 long term relationships in my life.. Im 28 years old now .. and Im glad that I didnt marry any of those girls. I loved all of them dearly and still have a friendship with 2 of them .. 1 very close friendship. I learned many things from each relationship

That's fair enough.

Playboy wrote:

I was committed in all my relationships to a certain extent .. I wasnt ready to marry but I was open to the possibility. The reason I didnt marry was because I wanted to be sure that I was making the right decision not because I was using someone for sex or company till someone better came along.

I think that maybe my posts may have come across as a bit harsh so please allow me to clarify what I meant.

I'm not trying to make out that men are evil and consciously making the decision to just have a good time with whoever they are with now until someone better comes along but, you have to admit, it must exist on some subconscious level. You said it yourself when you said "I was committed in all my relationships to a certain extent". That says that you weren't fully committed. And, of course, your statement of "I wanted to be sure that I was making the right decision" does show some consideration on your part with respect to your partner because you don't want to be unfair to her and involve her in a marriage that you might not want to be in. But, at the same time, it also means that you're keeping her in this state of limbo where she's neither married nor completely free to pursue another relationship with someone else for marriage.

Of course, there are plenty of women who will say "I don't want to rush into marriage either" and I think that there are a couple of reasons for this. One possible reason is that, somewhere in the back of their mind, being a divorcee seems a lot worse than just being on the rebound from a break-up both psychologically and emotionally as well as in the eyes of society and other future potential partners.

I think that probably one of the main reasons that people don't want to get married is due to the negative associations involved with the idea of separation/divorce. Although people get divorced all the time now in modern day Ireland, there's still some negative connotations associated with it. The church doesn't recognise it and some people may look down somewhat on someone who gets divorced. And I guess that with the current generations who are of the marrying age at least, the stigma associated with the Church's view on divorce is probably a huge factor deep in their sub-conscious. People want to be 100% sure that they're making the right decision because the idea of divorce/separation just seems so wrong (if only in their sub-conscious).

That's a new thought I had today and wasn't in my mind before and I guess it goes a long way to explaining how people might be thinking or feeling without even being aware of it so I guess it defends the idea of people living together first before getting married in modern day Ireland. However, it would be a little ironic if in attempting to avoid the sin of divorce, people actually live in sin first.

Playboy wrote:

I learned an invaluable amount from this relationship and the others I have been in. It makes me I believe a much better person ... kinder and more considerate .. not jealous, sensitive to my gf needs .. open, honest ..

That's all fair enough but does someone have to end the relationship they're currently in and start a new one to improve as a person? Can't it be done while you're married to them?

Playboy wrote:

How do you know a person is right for you when you only know them for 6 months before you marry them and all contact is supervised and you never live with them. To me the idea is almost laughable and I would believe that Islamic society is rife with uhappy marriages. I only know what I have been told though .. but what I am told is of many many unhappy marriages which stay together because of societlal pressure or the presence of kids. Now I would say that you are verging on being deluded if you think that this system i perfect. Imo it is a system designed to protect the male. Protect him in all aspects because he is viewed as a rather underdeveloped being who is incapable of change.

Most unfair. Jumping the gun a little there, aren't we?

I would hazard a guess that your girlfriend is from the Pakistani community where arranged marriages are commonplace. Even if she isn't, you've already stated that arranged marriages exist in the society she lives in. If so, it's no surprise to me that there are unhappy marriages. What do people expect? For two people who don't know each other at all to be completely compatible on the emotional and intellectual level just like that?

As for your idea of it being "laughable", let me suggest the following.

If two people spend large amounts of time together for 6 months (for example... it's usually more), don't you think that's plenty to get to know someone? Especially if you know why you're trying to get to know them. Granted, it's never like actually living with them but you can at least get to know the kind of person they are, their opinions on certain matters, their sense of humour, their likes, their dislikes, whether or not they're kind to animals, whether or not they're kind in general, their religious views, their views on upbringing etc etc etc. For me, that's enough to say "Yeah, I think know enough now to decide on whether or not I'd like to marry this person".

You think it's laughable but you haven't even tried it. And, like I said (and seem to find myself repeating a lot seeing as people seem to be missing it in my posts or ignoring it), I've seen countless happy marriages stem from this kind of method and only the odd bad one. You don't have to believe me if you don't want to but that's the truth. And by happy marriages I don't mean people just staying in the marriage. I mean people actually happy in the marriage who are still completely in love with their partner and can't think of living without them.

Playboy wrote:

Muslim men what from Im told and from what I have experienced are extremley jealous when it comes to women. This seems to be accepted as normal and leads to all sorts of problems for women. Women not allowed out without their partner or some kind of supervision .. confined to the house for large parts of their life etc etc.

Stereotyping. Some truth mixed with falsehood there.

And, by the way, I wasn't saying that we should give in to jealousy. But, it is a human emotion believed even by evolutionists who don't believe in God as a natural and necessary development for people to feel protective about their partners etc.

Playboy wrote:

Some of the guys even have a big problem with me dating a muslim girl even though they are not that religious and they dont know her particularly well.

Well, that's quite a big topic actually but I'd say that these guys should probably reflect upon themselves first and foremost.

Playboy wrote:

How can you have a fulfilling and loving relationship with someone you dont consider your equal?

That is most unfair. Who ever said that Muslim men don't consider women their equal? Any Muslim man who thinks this is not in compliance with Islamic teaching has got it completely wrong and I would ask you not to make such sweeping statements. If you want to make such comments with respect to Islam then you must back it up with fact rather than just going on what you have seen from individuals you have met. Comments like that are very damaging to peoples' opinion of Islam and to make a judgement on a religion based on the actions of people who don't follow it properly is a severe error.

Playboy wrote:

What if you arent sexually compatible .. some people arent. Its a big part of a relationship.

I've head this argument before and, with all due respect to yourself, I think it's rubbish. Any couple can improve that side of their relationship together if they so desire. It takes a little effort like anything else and what better way to do it than with the person you love and plan to spend the rest of your life with?

Aren't there books sold for that kind of thing anyway? That shows that there are plenty of sex therapists who agree with me.

Playboy wrote:

The single parent problem .. is it a problem?

Yes it is. There are plenty of single mothers who wish they weren't and plenty more children without fathers who wish they had one. If you ignore that, it doesn't make it any better.

Playboy wrote:

Why not just use birth control ...I also use condoms and Im not promiscious hence preventing me from ever contracting an std....

Is this a joke? Putting aside for a moment that the main reason that a good Muslim/Christian/whatever won't have sex before marriage isn't because they want to prevent childbirth out of marriage, birth control in all it's forms never guarantees 100% certainty that there won't be an accidental pregnancy or transmission of an STD. Condoms are only 97% effective I think. You're kidding yourself I think. You're like Joey from friends... you didn't read the label

Playboy wrote:

Unlike you I belive relationships outside of marriage are a necessity if a marriage is to have any chance of working

I shall say once again (and hopefully for the last time) that a massive majority of the marriages I know are all happy ones and they followed the Islamic guidelines. Out of all the marriages in my entire extended family, I can only think of one which could be considered a bit shaky. I think you'll find that that's a much better statistic than the average marriage in, say, America. The way you are going on, if everyone had relationships before marriage then we'd all have happy marriages... guaranteed. Well, it's not like that.

I hope I don't seem too aggressive there. I just re-read my post there and it might seem a little aggressive but I guess you could say that I'm just a little frustrated at the fact that so many people are so adamant that pre-marital relations are the best way forward when the statistics speak for themselves really.

Playboy

the_new_mr wrote:

It's the sad truth. Sorry to break it to you but most guys do talk like that. It's just the way it goes. How many guys in Ireland aren't interested in clubbing and random scoring? Very few is the answer to that. And, as it happens, I've heard a fair few girls talk like that too but admittedly not as much as guys.

Im sorry to disagree with you again here but this is a sweeping and unfair generalization. Some guys do talk like this .. some guys dont. You will find if you look hard enough that there are many guys who do not talk like this and are not interested in random scoring. You do find this type of behaviour common in school kids and maybe the first or second years in University. After people mature (some dont!) you will find I think that this type of behaviour more or less disappears. It has in my experience and I would consider myself someone who has been around the block quite a bit. In my experience guys are quite private about their sex lives, giving very little if any information. Just because in your experience you have come across some guys who talk like this doesnt make it true Im sorry to say.

the_new_mr wrote:

I think you misunderstood me there. I didn't mean that someone stays in a relationship because they have to and not because they want to. What I meant was that someone won't get married unless they really are committed to the relationship in the first place. It's like saying "I'm so committed to you and this relationship that I'm willing to get married so that we are legally and financially bound to each other because I believe we're going to stay together" whereas if two people aren't married, whether they like it or not, they may be thinking in their sub-conscious that "I'm in this relationship and I'm committed but I'm probably not committed enough to go that final step so let's leave it like this because somewhere in my mind there's some doubt about the future of this relationship".

I think you are being quite simplistic and presumptuous here. There are many reasons why people dont get married. Some people like to be sure before they get married and that means living together for a portion of your lives in a situation similar to marriage to see if it works. I think it is quite foolish to jump into a a commitment such as marriage unless you are 100% sure because a divorce is a traumatic event esp if there are kids involved. There is also a number of other reasons why people dont get married .. for instance I want to be ready to get married and that means finishing my studies, securing employment and being in a position to support my children when I have them. Until then I dont see the point in being married because it is a life step that you have to prepared for finacially and emotionally. But I do believe that you and your partner can have a fulfilling relationship until ye both get to a place in your lives where ye feel like ye are ready for it .. in my experience it has nothing to do with a lack of commitment. Weddings are also expensive events and people want to have the perfect one and it takes time to put yourself in a postion where you can do this.

Also you seem to talk quite a lot about what goes on in peoples conscious or subconscious .. its kind of pointless (unless you are a mind reader) because you dont know and should not presume for the sake of argument that you do.

the_new_mr wrote:

I saw an episode of Dr. Phil there recently (I don't watch it really but was channel flicking and it seemed interesting) and there was a couple of who had been bf/gf for about 7 years or something and the guy was just so reluctant to get married that he was crying before their wedding. Eventually, they got married and he said that he was doing the marriage on a trial basis and she was in shock etc etc. Anyway, the point is that he had her tied down in a relationship for 7 years but clearly wasn't committed enough to her to feel that he wanted to marry her. Not only that, even though he said that he loved her, he also said at one point in the program something like "[Her name] is nicer than a wide majority of women I've met". Dr. Phil made note of the "wide majority of women" bit. I mean, why think like that?

Dr. Phil is a complete hack and is an embarassment to psychology in the sense that he claims he is one. His shows have nothing to do with psychology .. he is just a bad life coach and I dont think we can use an example from his show (which are obviously set up for certain reasons) to prove any kind of point

the_new_mr wrote:

I won't even dignify that with an answer.

While I think it is important to distinguish between Islam and culture in Islamic countries I can understand why people get confused. Many countries with a majority Islamic population have by western standards a very repressive attitude to women such as Saudi Arabia. I am reading the Koran at the moment and I am confused about certain passages regarding women and the equality of women. There is certain bits that are great in regard to the dowry and how women can keep their own finaces seperate to their husbands .. but there are surahs where in inheritance women get less than men, men are told to beat their wifes and quite unequal punishment in regard to lewd behaviour. Also why are men allowed to have many wives and women not allowed to have many husbands. Now Im prepared to accept Im wrong on all of these issues because I realize I might not be taking the context into account. Im reading the Koran with quite a solid foundation in Islamic history but I dont know if I am making mistakes in regards to my interpretation. But as it stands it does seem that the religion of Islam is biased towards men in my opinion. It seems it is a strongly patriarchal religion so I dont think that moe sizlaks comment is that out of order. Maybe he is making the comment in ignorance of the Koran but I am not so could you dignify me with a response?

the_new_mr wrote:

If people believe that a particular action (such as arranged marriages) are part of Islam then for sure there is a responsibility on the scholars to make that clear but unfortunately some people can be so stubborn that something is part of Islam that they just won't hear otherwise. They've mixed culture and religion to such a point that they honestly believe not doing what their fathers did would make them a bad Muslim. The most responsibility and blame lies on these people who aren't willing to educate themselves about their own religion. It makes me sad.

Ok in my experience this is what I understand. Marriages are not exclusively arranged as in certain Indian and Pakistani societies but there is huge pressure on girls to get married to the right sort of guy. A guy has to be from the right kind of family and marriage is encouraged at what is considered in the west at a very young age. While in principal the girl and the guy agree to get married they probably would choose not to if it were not for the pressure from the families and society in general. Its not as if guys and girls are free to take as long as they want and can marry whoever they want .. while this might be cultural to a certain extent it is common practice in many Islamic countries. I would consider this to be an arranged marriage of sorts while still complying with the rules of Islam. I mean in 7th centrury Arabia attitudes to women were quite different and women to an extent were verging on been treated as property .. marriages were there to bind families together and make tribal alliances .. this practice has not completely died out.

the_new_mr wrote:

I think that maybe my posts may have come across as a bit harsh so please allow me to clarify what I meant.

I'm not trying to make out that men are evil and consciously making the decision to just have a good time with whoever they are with now until someone better comes along but, you have to admit, it must exist on some subconscious level. You said it yourself when you said "I was committed in all my relationships to a certain extent". That says that you weren't fully committed. And, of course, your statement of "I wanted to be sure that I was making the right decision" does show some consideration on your part with respect to your partner because you don't want to be unfair to her and involve her in a marriage that you might not want to be in. But, at the same time, it also means that you're keeping her in this state of limbo where she's neither married nor completely free to pursue another relationship with someone else for marriage.

Of course, there are plenty of women who will say "I don't want to rush into marriage either" and I think that there are a couple of reasons for this. One possible reason is that, somewhere in the back of their mind, being a divorcee seems a lot worse than just being on the rebound from a break-up both psychologically and emotionally as well as in the eyes of society and other future potential partners.

From your posts I feel like you think that all women are desperate to get married and if they are not desperate to get married then you also know the sub conscious reason why they dont. My ex gf didnt want to rush into marriage just as much as I didnt. She was keeping me in limbo as much as I was her which was not at all! Neither of us felt like we were in limbo .. we just were both mature enough to realise that we were not ready .. emotionally, financially and the fact that we were not 100% sure that it was the right decision. If we had met under your system we would have definetly been married but imo that would have been the wrong decision. This is the point I am trying to make .. I would have been married to all 3 of my ex gfs if I had met under your system .. all of these would have been wrong decisions for me and eventually the marriage would have been very unhappy. This why I dont think your system can work well .. because once you commit and have children then its very difficult to leave the marriage so people just stay together and try to make the best of it which isnt very fufilling (I have tried it).

the_new_mr wrote:

I think that probably one of the main reasons that people don't want to get married is due to the negative associations involved with the idea of separation/divorce. Although people get divorced all the time now in modern day Ireland, there's still some negative connotations associated with it. The church doesn't recognise it and some people may look down somewhat on someone who gets divorced. And I guess that with the current generations who are of the marrying age at least, the stigma associated with the Church's view on divorce is probably a huge factor deep in their sub-conscious. People want to be 100% sure that they're making the right decision because the idea of divorce/separation just seems so wrong (if only in their sub-conscious).

That's a new thought I had today and wasn't in my mind before and I guess it goes a long way to explaining how people might be thinking or feeling without even being aware of it so I guess it defends the idea of people living together first before getting married in modern day Ireland. However, it would be a little ironic if in attempting to avoid the sin of divorce, people actually live in sin first.

The reason why I think I want to avoid making the wrong marriage decision is because I want to avoid the trauma of a divorce and having to possibly drag children though that. I want to make sure I make the right decision because I believe marriage is for life.

the_new_mr wrote:

That's all fair enough but does someone have to end the relationship they're currently in and start a new one to improve as a person? Can't it be done while you're married to them?

Yes ofc it can but in my situation it didnt work out like that. We realized we were wrong for each other. People should grow together but also individual growth outside of the relationship before you come together gives you a greater chance of success. Having a few relationships in my experience is a great help on the road to finding the right person and helping you understand what you need in a partner.

the_new_mr wrote:

I would hazard a guess that your girlfriend is from the Pakistani community where arranged marriages are commonplace. Even if she isn't, you've already stated that arranged marriages exist in the society she lives in. If so, it's no surprise to me that there are unhappy marriages. What do people expect? For two people who don't know each other at all to be completely compatible on the emotional and intellectual level just like that?

She is actually from an upper class egyptian family who are quite westernized in large areas of their lives. While there are some what are very close to being an Indian style arranged marriages in her society most are done in the style I described earlier. Girls have to be married by a certain stage and they know who they can and cant married .. they can pick but in a certain pool of people within a certain amount of time. The concept of meeting someone and falling in love is an alien idea. Marriage is for kids in her own words and she had accepted her fate to marry some guy who her family think suitable. They will of course court as in your description for a certain period and she can say no if she really doesnt like him but as long as he is a nice guy then she will accept him. To me this is practically arranged and this is the common practice. I think it would be impossible to realize if you are compatible on an emmotional and intellectual level in your system. How do you know if you are emotionally compatible if you havent been through anything emotional together apart from supervised dates!

the_new_mr wrote:

As for your idea of it being "laughable", let me suggest the following.

If two people spend large amounts of time together for 6 months (for example... it's usually more), don't you think that's plenty to get to know someone? Especially if you know why you're trying to get to know them. Granted, it's never like actually living with them but you can at least get to know the kind of person they are, their opinions on certain matters, their sense of humour, their likes, their dislikes, whether or not they're kind to animals, whether or not they're kind in general, their religious views, their views on upbringing etc etc etc. For me, that's enough to say "Yeah, I think know enough now to decide on whether or not I'd like to marry this person".

You think it's laughable but you haven't even tried it. And, like I said (and seem to find myself repeating a lot seeing as people seem to be missing it in my posts or ignoring it), I've seen countless happy marriages stem from this kind of method and only the odd bad one. You don't have to believe me if you don't want to but that's the truth. And by happy marriages I don't mean people just staying in the marriage. I mean people actually happy in the marriage who are still completely in love with their partner and can't think of living without them.

I think you can get to know someone to a certain extent in supervised conditions for periods of 6 months to a year but I dont believe you can get to know them well enough to decide if they ae right for marriage. The nuances of a persons character can sometimes be what make or break a relationship. All of my ex gfs seemed like perfect candidates for marriage when I first dated them. When we moved in together was the real test. I didnt break up with any of my partners because of their opinions on political issues, their kindness to animals or their sense of humour. It was all down to emotionally compatibility when faced with everyday living and the problems people face .. something I would never have found out if I had not decided to live with them.

the_new_mr wrote:

Stereotyping. Some truth mixed with falsehood there.

And, by the way, I wasn't saying that we should give in to jealousy. But, it is a human emotion believed even by evolutionists who don't believe in God as a natural and necessary development for people to feel protective about their partners etc.

I did indicate in my post that I was aware I was stereotyping to a certain extent but from my experience it was quite common. As for jealousy I dont think anyone is in doubt as to whether or not the emotion exists. Evolutionary Psychologists (Im training as a psychologist) believe that it exists in order that a male protects himself .. by making sure any women he cares for is carrying his child and not anothers and so he ensure he is passing on his genes. Being overly protective and jealous aids this .. women are jealous in a different way supposedly. According to studies they find emotional betrayal worse than sexual because they are fearful of losing the male as a provider .. her genes already sure of being passed on because she is the one having the child.

My point in regards to jealousy though was that it if we create a system where there is miminal jealousy by making sure our women have very limited contact with other men especially making sure they are not alone with them then we never learn how to work through the emotion and create real trust which is the basic foundation for any successful relationship. In Islamic countries jealousy is avoided by men so when they are in a position where they feel threatened or jealous they react badly .. like a young male in this society .. but the difference is that usually in a western or more open society men have to work through the jealous emotion because society wouldnt allow certain treatment of women and overly jealous guys are not appriecated or generally tolerated. Muslim men from my experience (I know Im stereotyping:p ) dont go through this change and stay emotionally stagnant to some extent .. unable to deal with certain situations regarding women maturely. This makes life for women very difficult and affects their freedom.

the_new_mr wrote:

That is most unfair. Who ever said that Muslim men don't consider women their equal? Any Muslim man who thinks this is not in compliance with Islamic teaching has got it completely wrong and I would ask you not to make such sweeping statements. If you want to make such comments with respect to Islam then you must back it up with fact rather than just going on what you have seen from individuals you have met. Comments like that are very damaging to peoples' opinion of Islam and to make a judgement on a religion based on the actions of people who don't follow it properly is a severe error.

Well I have dealt with this earlier I feel there is certain contradictions within Islam regarding women and equality. While certain surahs say to treat women with kindness and euqity .. others imo are very obviously biased towards men such as the ones I metioned earlier. Im open to being corrected here in my interpretation though

the_new_mr wrote:

I've head this argument before and, with all due respect to yourself, I think it's rubbish. Any couple can improve that side of their relationship together if they so desire. It takes a little effort like anything else and what better way to do it than with the person you love and plan to spend the rest of your life with?

You are entitled to your opinion of course but presuming you havent sinned and had pre marital reliations (I dont mean to pry or be rude .. you sound like a very devout guy ) I have more experience than you here. For me this was a problem and I did try to work on it for a long time. There are books of course to help and there are sex therapists but talk to one or two and you might find that it is big problem or they wouldnt be in employment.

the_new_mr wrote:

Yes it is. There are plenty of single mothers who wish they weren't and plenty more children without fathers who wish they had one. If you ignore that, it doesn't make it any better.

Two sides to this coin my friend .. plenty of people who are very happy to be single parents and plenty of happy, beautiful, well adjusted children who dont know their father. I know many of both.

the_new_mr wrote:

Is this a joke? Putting aside for a moment that the main reason that a good Muslim/Christian/whatever won't have sex before marriage isn't because they want to prevent childbirth out of marriage, birth control in all it's forms never guarantees 100% certainty that there won't be an accidental pregnancy or transmission of an STD. Condoms are only 97% effective I think. You're kidding yourself I think. You're like Joey from friends... you didn't read the label

No its not a joke .. Crossing the road isnt 100% safe but you still do that. 97% is a pretty good stat to me. If you are sensible and use condoms, birth control and are careful about who you have sex with then this really isnt a problem. Of course there is still a chance but its a very slim chance and life wouldnt be worth living if we didnt do anything that wasnt 100% safe.

the_new_mr wrote:

I shall say once again (and hopefully for the last time) that a massive majority of the marriages I know are all happy ones and they followed the Islamic guidelines. Out of all the marriages in my entire extended family, I can only think of one which could be considered a bit shaky. I think you'll find that that's a much better statistic than the average marriage in, say, America. The way you are going on, if everyone had relationships before marriage then we'd all have happy marriages... guaranteed. Well, it's not like that.

Yes .. the majority of marriages you know .. you are one person. I know at least 10 Muslim people from all parts of the Islamic world who tell me differently. The stats about divorce rates dont really tell a story here. Divorce is an accepted part of everyday life in America. It is frowned upon in Islam although it is allowed. In most countries it is much easier for a man to get a divorce than a woman. Just because marriages stay together in a society where divorce is frowned upon and it is difficult for a woman to obtain one .. and a man can technically have more than 1 wife as a rule of religion .. it doesnt mean that the marriages are happy. All it means is that is easier to get a divorce in the US than it is in an Islamic country and its more accepted.

the_new_mr wrote:

I hope I don't seem too aggressive there. I just re-read my post there and it might seem a little aggressive but I guess you could say that I'm just a little frustrated at the fact that so many people are so adamant that pre-marital relations are the best way forward when the statistics speak for themselves really.

Not at all .. I hope you dont find my posts too aggresssive. I am interested in seeing these statistics and seeing what they prove. There are of course problems with pre marital relations if people are immature but there are also positives. Education is the way foward not prohibtion. Look at Holland as an example .. sex education from a very young age and extremely low teenage pregnency rates and std contraction even though is a open and liberal society.

the_new_mr

Playboy wrote:

Im sorry to disagree with you again here but this is a sweeping and unfair generalization. Some guys do talk like this .. some guys dont. You will find if you look hard enough that there are many guys who do not talk like this and are not interested in random scoring. You do find this type of behaviour common in school kids and maybe the first or second years in University. After people mature (some dont!) you will find I think that this type of behaviour more or less disappears. It has in my experience and I would consider myself someone who has been around the block quite a bit. In my experience guys are quite private about their sex lives, giving very little if any information. Just because in your experience you have come across some guys who talk like this doesnt make it true Im sorry to say.

No need to be sorry for disagreeing with me

I have to say that, for me anyway, you said it all when you said "If you look hard enough". From my own experience, a wide majority of guys talk that way. Anyway, it's not really what this thread is about but it is a relevant point.

Playboy wrote:

I think it is quite foolish to jump into a a commitment such as marriage unless you are 100% sure because a divorce is a traumatic event esp if there are kids involved.

Well, "fools jump in" as the saying goes. I'm not suggesting that anybody makes a hasty decision but, at the same time, it's really quite impossible to 100% certain before a marriage. Take all the people who do get married after living together. Whether or not they were 100% sure doesn't seem to be helping the rate of separation that much.

I totally agree that bringing kids through a divorce should be avoided and usually in the Muslim world (from my experience at least), people tend to divorce early on if they feel they are in a shaky marriage and so decide to break it off before kids come into the equation.

Playboy wrote:

here is also a number of other reasons why people dont get married .. for instance I want to be ready to get married and that means finishing my studies, securing employment and being in a position to support my children when I have them. Until then I dont see the point in being married because it is a life step that you have to prepared for finacially and emotionally.

Agree with you on that.

Playboy" wrote:

But I do believe that you and your partner can have a fulfilling relationship until ye both get to a place in your lives where ye feel like ye are ready for it .. in my experience it has nothing to do with a lack of commitment.

Disagree with you on that. Obviously, as I've already said, the main reason I won't have a pre-marital relationship (which answer your question ) is because I believe God doesn't want me to and that it would be a sin if I were to be involved in one. However, I'm managing just fine so far without being in one. Of course I'm looking forward to it but I know I'm not ready in my head yet so I'll wait.

Playboy wrote:

Also you seem to talk quite a lot about what goes on in peoples conscious or subconscious .. its kind of pointless (unless you are a mind reader) because you dont know and should not presume for the sake of argument that you do.

Yeah, I guess I tend to do that a lot. I guess you could say I'm a bit of an amateur psychologist/sociologist (the worst kind eh? ). I know it's all theories but they do, from my point of view at least, seem like they could be true enough.

Playboy wrote:

Dr. Phil is a complete hack and is an embarassment to psychology in the sense that he claims he is one. His shows have nothing to do with psychology .. he is just a bad life coach and I dont think we can use an example from his show (which are obviously set up for certain reasons) to prove any kind of point

Well, my sister (who has a minor in psychology) told me the same thing about him actually but my point was the situation between the couple really and not the show.

Playboy wrote:

While I think it is important to distinguish between Islam and culture in Islamic countries I can understand why people get confused. Many countries with a majority Islamic population have by western standards a very repressive attitude to women such as Saudi Arabia.

I agree and it sucks. It's unislamic and completely unfair (which is, in itself, unislamic).

Playboy wrote:

I am reading the Koran at the moment and I am confused about certain passages regarding women and the equality of women. There is certain bits that are great in regard to the dowry and how women can keep their own finaces seperate to their husbands .. but there are surahs where in inheritance women get less than men, men are told to beat their wifes and quite unequal punishment in regard to lewd behaviour.

Well, these topics have been covered at great length on this forum so I'll have to summarise a bit. You can check the other threads on the forum but with the lack of the search option, you might find it a bit difficult. I must make a sticky some day with links to the threads with these discussions.

With regards to inheritance. Women are only given less than a man in some cases, not all cases. Say in the case of the children of a father who dies, the son gets twice the daughter's share because the son is financially obligated to provide for his family/pay dowry if he wants to get married whereas the daughter is not. Taking a simple example: Say a man dies and leaves his son 10,000 and his daughter 5,000. Then, maybe the son pays 5,000 as dowry to get married and the daughter receives 5,000 as dowry to get married (not to each other mind!! ). Then, with what's left of the 5,000, the son is obliged to provide for his family along with whatever he earns whereas the daughter isn't.

The "beat them lightly" topic is much more complicated. Essentially, there are two opinions. The first states that this is nothing more than a symbolic tapping on with a small dental hygiene tool that could never hurt anyone at all. Just a tap tap to signify that this is the final stage before things get so bad that we may have to think about divorce.

The second opinion (and the one that I personally am convinced with) is it's not beat at all and that the word is translated incorrectly and actually means to leave the home. There's a loooong explanation to it but essentially, it explains that it makes more sense as it complies with something said in another verse somewhere else in the Quran.

I'm not sure where you got the unequal punishment for lewd behaviour thing from. If anything, it's tighter on the men because if they slander a woman without 3 other eye witnesses to back them up, it's 80 lashes (not to be sniffed at!).

Playboy wrote:

Also why are men allowed to have many wives and women not allowed to have many husbands.

Once again, very big topic that has already been discussed. In general, although it's allowed, it's not that common. And it used to happen at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) under certain circumstances. For example, an old widow needing someone to support and care for her (all but 2 of the Prophet's wives were widows) or a young widow after a battle claimed the lives of Muslim men who left behind their wife/wives and children.

Other situations where it might happen nowadays is if a woman is barren but the man doesn't want to divorce her because he loves her but also wants to have his own kids. I know of a lovely story actually where the first wife actually went out and found a second wife for her husband and they are both bringing the child up so he kind of has two mothers.

Playboy wrote:

Now Im prepared to accept Im wrong on all of these issues because I realize I might not be taking the context into account.

Context is very important. Both historical and textual. I can't stress it enough really. Even a Muslim may find it difficult to understand particular verses without understanding the story behind the reason for the revelation of that particular verse or the situation in was revealed in.

Playboy wrote:

Im reading the Koran with quite a solid foundation in Islamic history but I dont know if I am making mistakes in regards to my interpretation.

Well, two things here. One is that your solid foundation in Islamic history may be biased against Islam. It may not too... I don't know but I'm just saying it might. Secondly, who can truly claim to interpret the Quran perfectly anyway? The last person who could do that died over 1400 years ago (I'm talking about the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) of course).

Playboy wrote:

But as it stands it does seem that the religion of Islam is biased towards men in my opinion.

A common misconception not helped by the media in the slightest.

Playboy wrote:

I dont think that moe sizlaks comment is that out of order. Maybe he is making the comment in ignorance of the Koran but I am not so could you dignify me with a response?

moe_sizlak's comments had an attacking nature. As I had already said:

the_new_mr wrote:

Attacking Islam isn't allowed on this forum. Please read the forum charter. You're allowed to discuss any point you like as long as it isn't in an attacking manner but making such sweeping remarks without anything to back up your argument is not okay. I'm not going to ban you straight away so we'll make this a warning.

I hope my response was satisfactory enough. I would suggest though that if you want further clarification that you try and look for the older threads first and, failing that, start a new thread for each topic (but one at a time please ).

Playboy wrote:

Ok in my experience this is what I understand. Marriages are not exclusively arranged as in certain Indian and Pakistani societies but...

The situations you describe are purely cultural and it is unfair to blame Islam for the actions of some unfair parents. I admit that it is quite widespread (especially in Pakistan and India) but it's not right. Although it's true that you're supposed to get the consent of your parents for marriage (although I'm not 100% sure if this is a condition... must check), it's an absolute must for your parents to get yours. If you say yes but you really don't want to because you feel pressured then they are to blame for pressurising you but you are also to blame for not exercising your right.

Playboy wrote:

we just were both mature enough to realise that we were not ready .. emotionally, financially and the fact that we were not 100% sure that it was the right decision.

That's fine really. A lot of my friends are like "So, when are you getting married man?" and I respond with "Not yet". But, if you're not ready then why not just wait and not have the pre-marital relationship?

Playboy wrote:

If we had met under your system we would have definetly been married but imo that would have been the wrong decision. This is the point I am trying to make .. I would have been married to all 3 of my ex gfs if I had met under your system .. all of these would have been wrong decisions for me and eventually the marriage would have been very unhappy.

I see your point there but, and please don't be offended, don't you think there's the possibility that you might be a little too fussy? Marriage is always a compromise. Meeting your perfect match is for holywood

Playboy wrote:

The reason why I think I want to avoid making the wrong marriage decision is because I want to avoid the trauma of a divorce and having to possibly drag children though that. I want to make sure I make the right decision because I believe marriage is for life.

That's all fair enough. "Fools rush in" as we already said but sometimes mistakes happen. And, as I said, I know plenty of marriage who followed Islamic guidelines that are genuinely happily married (not just content with "their lot" as it were).

Playboy wrote:

Marriage is for kids in her own words and she had accepted her fate to marry some guy who her family think suitable. They will of course court as in your description for a certain period and she can say no if she really doesnt like him but as long as he is a nice guy then she will accept him

Sorry but that's her fault if she says yes. Her family shouldn't be trying to get her into a relationship she doesn't want to in the first place but if she says yes in the end when she doesn't really like him then it's her fault.

Playboy wrote:

I think it would be impossible to realize if you are compatible on an emmotional and intellectual level in your system. How do you know if you are emotionally compatible if you havent been through anything emotional together apart from supervised dates!

Well, what can I say? It works! The main thing is that you "think" it would be impossible. I assure you, it isn't. By the way, sorry for prying but does your reading of the Quran have anything to do with your relationship with this girl? Is she hoping you'll become a Muslim so you can get married?

Playboy wrote:

When we moved in together was the real test. I didnt break up with any of my partners because of their opinions on political issues, their kindness to animals or their sense of humour. It was all down to emotionally compatibility when faced with everyday living and the problems people face .. something I would never have found out if I had not decided to live with them.

Although you have a point to a certain extent, as long as someone has a good base to work from then you're well away in my opinion. If there is a problem then it can be worked on. If there's a solution then fine but if there's isn't, there's the option of divorce which usually happens within the first year if it's that bad.

With respect to the jealousy thing, I agree with you that Muslim men (to be more accurate, men from the middle-east and Pakistan/India) tend to be a bit overly jealous but, in my opinion, the west expect people to have almost no jealousy at all and you're supposed to be "okay" and "secure in yourself and your relationship" when your partner gets a peck on the cheek from their ex.

And why all the focus on men? I never once said that the jealousy is to be avoided for men only. That was an assumption on your part no doubt brought on from the media and the stereotypes that you have been exposed to. Women can get jealous just as much as men can and sometimes it can be worse. I wouldn't want my wife to feel all awkward if my ex was to show up wanting to "go for a coffee" or something. I agree that trust is important but how far should this go? Like the middle east or like the west? I'm planning to aim for the middle when I'm married God willing.

Playboy wrote:

You are entitled to your opinion of course but presuming you havent sinned and had pre marital reliations (I dont mean to pry or be rude .. you sound like a very devout guy ) I have more experience than you here. For me this was a problem and I did try to work on it for a long time. There are books of course to help and there are sex therapists but talk to one or two and you might find that it is big problem or they wouldnt be in employment.

Well, you're right. I don't have any experience in this area so I'm only going on what I've been told and what I've read but I think that the fact that there are sex therapists who stay in employment means that they are successful. I'm sure you've read the testimonies. Like any other part of a relationship, it can (and absolutely should) be worked on.

Playboy wrote:

No its not a joke .. Crossing the road isnt 100% safe but you still do that. 97% is a pretty good stat to me. If you are sensible and use condoms, birth control and are careful about who you have sex with then this really isnt a problem. Of course there is still a chance but its a very slim chance and life wouldnt be worth living if we didnt do anything that wasnt 100% safe.

Well, let's look at it more closely, shall we? How many times have you crossed the road in your life? Tens of thousands of times I would say. How many times have you been hit by a car? But, the laws of probability suggest that if you have sex 100 times then the condom will fail three of those times leaving you to chance which is pretty bad odds when you think about it.

Also, it's not completely necessary to have sex before marriage but it is necessary to cross the road.

The "it's okay to have sex" is always the weakest part of any of these discussions that I've ever had as far as I can see it and I think it's just people wanting to feel better about doing it because they want to do it so badly.

Playboy wrote:

Yes .. the majority of marriages you know .. you are one person. I know at least 10 Muslim people from all parts of the Islamic world who tell me differently. The stats about divorce rates dont really tell a story here. Divorce is an accepted part of everyday life in America. It is frowned upon in Islam although it is allowed. In most countries it is much easier for a man to get a divorce than a woman. Just because marriages stay together in a society where divorce is frowned upon and it is difficult for a woman to obtain one .. and a man can technically have more than 1 wife as a rule of religion .. it doesnt mean that the marriages are happy. All it means is that is easier to get a divorce in the US than it is in an Islamic country and its more accepted.

I'm not talking about divorce rates. I'm talking about knowing people who are honestly happily married as in they look forward to seeing their partner when they come back from work, share plenty of laughs etc etc. It's not just about who stays together and who doesn't and I think I've been clear about that in my previous posts. You've already said that the Muslims you know seem to have had the semi-arranged marriage thing and, even so, it's only about 10 which isn't as many as I know.

We don't really want to get into a "I say, you say" match here but you get the picture I think. It's clear as day to me that relationships that follow the Islamic guidelines are more successful according to what I've seen both in non-Muslim countries (non-Muslim relationships as well as Muslim relationships) and Muslim countries.

Playboy wrote:

Not at all .. I hope you dont find my posts too aggresssive. I am interested in seeing these statistics and seeing what they prove. There are of course problems with pre marital relations if people are immature but there are also positives. Education is the way foward not prohibtion. Look at Holland as an example .. sex education from a very young age and extremely low teenage pregnency rates and std contraction even though is a open and liberal society.

Well, I'm sure you can probably already guess that what goes on in Holland makes me sick. Legal prostitution!! X-rated magazines in full view and reach of children old enough to walk in the airport!! I ask you, is any of that right? Honestly!! It's nuts really. And, who says they are having happy marriages over there anyway? That's what this is about, isn't it?

the_new_mr

the_new_mr wrote:

With respect to the jealousy thing, I agree with you that Muslim men (to be more accurate, men from the middle-east and Pakistan/India) tend to be a bit overly jealous but, in my opinion, the west expect people to have almost no jealousy at all and you're supposed to be "okay" and "secure in yourself and your relationship" when your partner gets a peck on the cheek from their ex.

What's wrong with that? People stay friends with exes.

Bottle_of_Smoke

bluewolf wrote: »

What's wrong with that? People stay friends with exes.

Jealously is a horrible feeling, men feel it when their partner's ex kisses their partner & it's not nice to go through/can lead to arguments.(insecure or not btw) Women feel it too but tend to get the feeling more when they're threatened by an emotional relationship.

I'd never kiss an ex even on the cheek if her boyfriend was present.

Bottle_of_Smoke

the_new_mr wrote:

Once again, very big topic that has already been discussed. In general, although it's allowed, it's not that common. And it used to happen at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) under certain circumstances. For example, an old widow needing someone to support and care for her (all but 2 of the Prophet's wives were widows) or a young widow after a battle claimed the lives of Muslim men who left behind their wife/wives and children.

Other situations where it might happen nowadays is if a woman is barren but the man doesn't want to divorce her because he loves her but also wants to have his own kids. I know of a lovely story actually where the first wife actually went out and found a second wife for her husband and they are both bringing the child up so he kind of has two mothers.

Yes these are reasonable situations where it happens but you're not giving any explanation as to why it's only allowed for men.

That would suggest a bias as playboy was pointing out.

I'm not against polygamy myself, I think it makes a lot of sense, but I'd be dead set against it if I was a woman & only men could practise it.

I personally think it's because men are far more possessive than women & it would result in chaos. Though that's not fair on women then having to share which could be percieved as a bias