Revenue Winding up <insert El club oh its Cork this time>

KdjaCL

THE HIGH COURT 2006 No. 222 COS IN THE MATTER OF CORK CITY INVESTMENT FC LTD. AND IN THE MATTER OF THE COMPANIES ACTS, 1963-2003 NOTICE is hereby given that a Petition for the winding-up of the above-named company by the High Court was on the 21st day of June, 2006, presented to the High Court by Gerard Harrahill, Collector General, Sarsfield House, Francis Street, Limerick, a creditor of the above-named company, and that the said Petition is directed to be heard before the High Court on the 17th day of July, 2006, and that any creditor or contributory of the said company who wishes to support or oppose the making of an Order on the said Petition may appear at the time of hearing by himself or his Counsel for that purpose and a copy of the Petition will be furnished to any creditor or contributory of the said company who requires it by the undersigned on payment of the regulated charge of the same. FRANCES COOKE, REVENUE SOLICITOR, DUBLIN CASTLE, DUBLIN 2. Solicitor for the Petitioner. NOTE: Any person who intends to appear at the hearing of the said Petition must serve on or send by post to the above-named Petitioner or his Solicitor notice in writing of his intention to do so. The notice must state the name and address of the person or, if a firm, the name and address of the firm, and must be signed by the person or firm, or his or their Solicitor, (if any), and must be served, or, if posted, must be sent by post in sufficient time to reach the above-named Solicitor or the Petitioner not later than 5 o'clock in the afternoon of the 14th day of July, 2006.

...........

I really do wonder how many tokens our clubs collect with their Cornflakes to get a UEFA licence......is it 6 or 8?


kdjac

bohsman

Hehe Cork fans on foot more or less refused to believe it when some Bohsfans in the know told them yesterday that this would be in todays papers.

Ronan|Raven

Tragic times indeed

Anto McC

bohsman wrote:

Hehe Cork fans on foot more or less refused to believe it when some Bohsfans in the know told them yesterday that this would be in todays papers.

Why should they believe it,did you not know everything is rosey in Cork,they dont have the same troubles we have in Dublin!!

If it is true it's probably the Dublin clubs working together to kill them off :rolleyes:

KdjaCL

Anto McC wrote:

If it is true it's probably the Dublin clubs working together to kill them off :rolleyes:

Ummm does the wording of the Notice not look familiar? Its from a newspaper.


kdjac

Anto McC

KdjaC wrote:

Ummm does the wording of the Notice not look familiar? Its from a newspaper.

Fair enough,my mistake,keep your pants on!

John_C

Myself and the lads got word of this as we were driving from Dublin down to the game in Turner's Cross but when we got there we couldn't find a Cork fan who would believe us. What made it all the more funny was the fact that there was no program for Friday's game, paralleling what happened in Shel's recently.

gimmick

Morons. Every single club has a revenue problem, but unlike others, CCFC will actually pay theirs, on time, and not have to borrow to do so. It has been known for a few weeks that this was going to crop up, so dont think like ye heard an exclusive or something, or that your 'inside' knowledge is actually worth anything.

Re the program the other night, dont read into it if you would pardon such an awful pun. I know for a fact there is no problems with money there, it was simply an error made at the printers. For those of you who dont know, programmes are done at a very very tight deadline, and this just went wrong. First time this has happened as long as I have been a fan of the club.

So quit your pathetic gloating. If ye are happy to see Irelands clubs in trouble, you really have to question are ye fans of the league, or just pathetic muppets who glory in seeing others in 'trouble'.

Enjoy your medocrity.

KdjaCL

gimmick wrote:

So quit your pathetic gloating. If ye are happy to see Irelands clubs in trouble, you really have to question are ye fans of the league, or just pathetic muppets who glory in seeing others in 'trouble'.

Bohs had their NTL cut off on thursday for non payment of bills, so guess the internet is their only avenue of entertainment for a while.



kdjac

Draupnir

gimmick wrote:

Morons. Every single club has a revenue problem, but unlike others, CCFC will actually pay theirs, on time, and not have to borrow to do so. It has been known for a few weeks that this was going to crop up, so dont think like ye heard an exclusive or something, or that your 'inside' knowledge is actually worth anything.

Re the program the other night, dont read into it if you would pardon such an awful pun. I know for a fact there is no problems with money there, it was simply an error made at the printers. For those of you who dont know, programmes are done at a very very tight deadline, and this just went wrong. First time this has happened as long as I have been a fan of the club.

So quit your pathetic gloating. If ye are happy to see Irelands clubs in trouble, you really have to question are ye fans of the league, or just pathetic muppets who glory in seeing others in 'trouble'.

Enjoy your medocrity.

Will ye go back to being Cork Hibernians now to dodge the Tax bill?

The Rooster

gimmick wrote:

Morons. Every single club has a revenue problem, but unlike others, CCFC will actually pay theirs, on time, and not have to borrow to do so. It has been known for a few weeks that this was going to crop up, so dont think like ye heard an exclusive or something, or that your 'inside' knowledge is actually worth anything.

If Cork were paying their Revenue bills "on time", then it wouldnt be in the papers. It has to be very very late to get to the stage of a court petition, with numerous warnings in place.

I don't know much about the eircom league, but I do know that paying tax bills late is poor financial management. Revenue are legally entitled to charge over 10% in interest plus potential additional penalties on late payments. Not clever to be paying those type of interest rates.

gimmick

Draupnir wrote:

Will ye go back to being Cork Hibernians now to dodge the Tax bill?

Just shows how little you know with a ridiculous attempt at humour. The very fact that alot of this bill comes from the previous boards mismanagement nullifys your attempt.

The Rooster wrote:

If Cork were paying their Revenue bills "on time", then it wouldnt be in the papers. It has to be very very late to get to the stage of a court petition, with numerous warnings in place.

Poor wording on my behalf, but I know for a fact that the club have been in talks with the revenue for the last few weeks regarding this matter. The only reason the RC have issued this petition at this stage is to hurry up the proceedings, and obviously get their monies. City were obviously looking for some sort of a break, much like the one Rovers got last year. It seems the effort was in vain, so the bill is to be paid today.

I don't know much about the eircom league, but I do know that paying tax bills late is poor financial management.

You see what this highlights is that even after a fairly wildly successful season for the club, it can still have financial problems. And this is even with a very conservative transfer and wages policy. City made plenty money from winning the league, excellent gate reciepts for the latter half of the season, cup final run, UEFA run, gates and prize money. What it serves to highlight is that without government assistence the domestic product can at best just exist, without ever making any progress. And by assistence I dont mean a small bit of tokenism, I mean proper tax breaks, ideally the same as for artists, musicians etc, but at least tax relief of pro wages, infrastructure etc. This can only benefit every club in the league, and would possibly make it more appealing to SL teams to try and make the step up to professionalism.

Fact is, if it can happen to Cork City, it can happen to anyone in this league. Now rumours are stating that Bohs and Drogs are next on the list, and I have no doubt that after those, should that come to pass, someone or two others will come uunder scrutiny.

Im just releived that this isnt a problem, and it certainly isnt this highlight news that people are making it out to be.

johnos

Soul-destroying.
All of this simply points to the need for a serious, strategic, Marshall Plan investment in football in Ireland. It's simply never going to progress if it's left to the market and television executives.

KdjaCL

Lennox in the Star " We provice young footballers with jobs" part of his point on why they should get tax breaks.

Hes spot on.


Also bill paid as of today i think he said.



kdjac

therecklessone

KdjaC wrote:

Lennox in the Star " We provice young footballers with jobs" part of his point on why they should get tax breaks.

Hes spot on.

I have no problem with professionally run clubs getting assistance from the taxpayer to help with the development of the club and the game in general.

I have a real problem with the taxpayer bailing out every club thats run by a gang of shysters. Lessons will not be learned, the clubs will be back for more in the future.

gimmick

Are you saying Lennox is a shyster?

Sleepy

I'm not usually one for classism but doesn't it seem more than a little off that football clubs, a sport which virtually every person in this country is interested in don't get tax breaks whilst horse-racing which, Galway Races and the National aside, has a marginal (wealthy) following is almost entirely tax free at this stage?

therecklessone

gimmick wrote:

Are you saying Lennox is a shyster?

I'm saying as a general comment that EL clubs are poorly run, and until clubs learn to control spending and manage their finances, then I am opposed to taxpayers bailing themout every time they make a balls of things.

I don't believe the Revenue Commissioners should be expected to write off tax liabilities unless there is an undertaking that the El and its constituent clubs get their houses in order.

And I include my own team Shels in that.

p.s. my use of the word shyster was ill advised, as not all clubs are run in that manner. Perhaps incompetent is a better term to use?

gimmick

Sleepy wrote:

I'm not usually one for classism but doesn't it seem more than a little off that football clubs, a sport which virtually every person in this country is interested in don't get tax breaks whilst horse-racing which, Galway Races and the National aside, has a marginal (wealthy) following is almost entirely tax free at this stage?

Aha, but you never hear of a minister driving on the wrong side of the road after a Cork City Vs Shels game, do you?

therecklessone wrote:

I don't believe the Revenue Commissioners should be expected to write off tax liabilities unless there is an undertaking that the El and its constituent clubs get their houses in order.

I agree with you, and that was a point I was trying to make, albeit quite unclearly. The RC should get their monies, as they are owed in, and monies should not be written of retrospectively. But once the clubs who are in arrears are paid up to date AND have their houses in order, thats when tax breaks come in. Means test it if you like. If a club meets financial criteria etc, they get the breaks, if not, screw them. That then is an incentive to strive toward professionalism, rather than merely existing. Means test every year, much like clubs need to have the grounds to a certain standard in order to get a licence (and I realise I am somewhat over-simplifying how one achieves a UEFA license).

As I have said above, domestic football needs every break it can get. Clubs are trying/have tried and things gone against them - Bohs, Pats, Shels, Drogs, Derry, Cork City. Others are merely happy to exist.

If the government could help the game in this country, it should. But the fact that our government, and our Football Association would prefer ship players to the UK en masse in the hopes a percentage comes good enough to compete at an international level, than try and expand and develop game which despite the apathy from the halls of power (and money), has made serious progress in recent years, basically says that they couldnt care less as long as they get their day out in Old Trafford/Celtic Park once a season.

therecklessone

gimmick wrote:

If the government could help the game in this country, it should.

And I've already said I've no problem with aid to clubs who are properly run, I just don't see the point in throwing good money after bad.

If the clubs themselves can't get their house in order, then they'll be back in another few years, cap in hand. It is obvious that EL clubs are living beyond their means, if the government has any role to play it should be in providing coaching and playing facilities at juvenile level, not in propping up badly run businesses (make no bones about it, thats what clubs are).

gimmick

Ive edited my last post to add a response to your last comments.

Re badly run businesses, well I can only speak for CCFC, but I cannot see how the club could be run much better. As I have already mentioned, there is a very (and believe me, frustratingly, but now understandable) conservative transfer and wage policy within CCFC. However, Lennox probably speculated to accumulate. It has been successful on the pitch, but unfortunately/bizarrely, the crowds are hugely down in The Cross this season. Now CCFc are in a position to pay off their arrears. So thats suggests, to me at least, competent book keeping. As for the tax bill, well as I have mentioned Lennox thought by bargaining he could get a few quid shaved off it - no one goes to the RC and hands across a cheque book and tell them go nuts.

therecklessone

Posted that last one before you edited your's, seems we're in agreement.

KdjaCL

Clubs badly run businesses????


Just as a point can anyone name 5 profit making clubs?


kdjac

gimmick

^ In Europe, or Ireland?

Apparently the only eL club to turn profit in 2005 was Finn Harps, and even at that it was something like €5k or €6k.

therecklessone

KdjaC wrote:

Clubs badly run businesses????


Just as a point can anyone name 5 profit making clubs?


kdjac

In Ireland or worldwide?

Only Chelsea and Fulham reported operating losses in the PL for season 2004/05

finnpark

Finn Harps turned a profit in every season for the past few seasons.

KdjaCL

I found a fiver today so finished the day on a profit doesnt make my 300k mortage debt any different

Most clubs are in debt and some PL clubs at a massive amount (man utd 700, pool 70 million, everton 20 , man city 25 etc) because they finish one year with more out than put in doesnt make it a profitable business to be in.

Point is football clubs are not going to rake in millions certainly not in ireland where on average it costs 1 million per year to operate with a team, ground and club workers. They need to make a million just to break even Cork would be about that level as they won the league and Euro run, setanta etc:( which i guestimate at 2.5 million), other clubs like Shels /Drogs req 2 million to operate, how do they break even?.

So every EL (pretty much all clubs every where) club starts the year in debt Pats 300k or thereabouts atm in Debt.
The tax breaks would lessen the blow and if they were means tested wouldnt the RC say just "shut up shop" as no way in hell your gonna make that monewy back.


kdjac

gimmick

KdjaC wrote:

The tax breaks would lessen the blow and if they were means tested wouldnt the RC say just "shut up shop" as no way in hell your gonna make that monewy back.

Im not sure I follow what you are saying, but if you are against means testing, what do you suggest? Surely not debts being written off? What lesson does that teach anyone, and what incentives does it give anyone to get beyond simply existing, and actually try to progress.

therecklessone

KdjaC wrote:

I found a fiver today so finished the day on a profit doesnt make my 300k mortage debt any different

Most clubs are in debt and some PL clubs at a massive amount (man utd 700, pool 70 million, everton 20 , man city 25 etc) because they finish one year with more out than put in doesnt make it a profitable business to be in.

Its a while since I studied commerce (or business studies IIRC ), but I think profitable businesses are allowed have debts, if it manageable and can be offset against projected future earnings.

In the case of EL clubs, projected earnings are too unpredictable. There can only be one EL champion (and one potential CL run), one Setanta champion (and they could be from t'other association). Spending money based on a possible league win and subsequent Euro win is business suicide.

KdjaC wrote:

Point is football clubs are not going to rake in millions certainly not in ireland where on average it costs 1 million per year to operate with a team, ground and club workers. They need to make a million just to break even Cork would be about that level as they won the league and Euro run, setanta etc:( which i guestimate at 2.5 million), other clubs like Shels /Drogs req 2 million to operate, how do they break even?.

So what, we leave things as they are and write off millions in taxes every couple of years? From what I've heard, the wages being paid by certain EL clubs are simply unsustainable. Wekid ourselves into thinking the likes of Alan Moore and Neil fenn are back home for the European football when the truth is they're here for the salary.

This will be an unpopular opinion, but if the EL can't afford to be run full time professional, then it should revert to semi-pro. Why should the taxpayer pay the wages of professional footballers?

KdjaCL

gimmick wrote:

Im not sure I follow what you are saying, but if you are against means testing, what do you suggest? Surely not debts being written off? What lesson does that teach anyone, and what incentives does it give anyone to get beyond simply existing, and actually try to progress.

What would means testing prove? Actually better question.... Is football in ireland a profitable business to be in? Will it ever be? Do you ever see a time when clubs will actually make money?

There is an answer that involves investment taking Pats as an example for Pats to generate more in that out it would req 10 million investment most of which wouldnt be seen again.


kdjac

KdjaCL

therecklessone wrote:

This will be an unpopular opinion, but if the EL can't afford to be run full time professional, then it should revert to semi-pro. Why should the taxpayer pay the wages of professional footballers?

I dont think Pats should ever go pro again altho we were so close to achieving full financial sustainability with a successful team and succesful off the pitch team, some bad decisions were made and we went from League Champions with 1 million in the bank to dethroned league champions in debt 1 million (Shels and Eamon Collins and Pat Dolan and some people who have to remain nameless due to libel) .

Tax breaks actually no tax on teams who are semi pro, if they have a bar tax that but not on the clubs income which would be gate and tv and some sponsorship. There is room for some Pro teams but dont think many will stay that way unless some form of tax break.


Btw i think you mean amnesty rather than tax break, i mean if a club is fully paid up and meets certain semi pro level they shouldnt pay any tax. Not clearing debts.


/also all semi pro players should be tax free too and GAA players but thats a different thread


kdjac

gimmick

KdjaC wrote:

What would means testing prove? Actually better question.... Is football in ireland a profitable business to be in? Will it ever be? Do you ever see a time when clubs will actually make money?

What the means testing would prove is that everyone starts with a clean slate, and certain guidelines should be put into place to ensure that clubs do not fall below a certain level financially, by taking advantage, or flahing the situation as it were, with regard to their tax exempt/tax relieved situation. This way it puts pressure on clubs to keep their houses in order. However thats not going to happen anyways, so I dont know why I am giving it so much time.

In answer to your question - no, I can never see a time when the eL will be profitable in the sense that you would get more money back from your investment than what it initially was, but I do not see why clubs cannot be stable. Very very few clubs in Europe turn profit, I would go as far as saying that I reckon not a single one in any top division is.

Again, i will ask, what would you suggest? Meander along, and stagnate, happy with existence, or what?

KdjaCL

gimmick wrote:

Again, i will ask, what would you suggest? Meander along, and stagnate, happy with existence, or what?

Gimmick no offence but i stand in the same spot (muckhill to bit of rock wooo progress) in Richmond for almost 22 years now.... what can i say i have seen good games, good players, been top of the league, been bottom, been in harolds cross, been in cup finals, been in CL, drew 0-0 away to celtic, lost 10-0 to Zimbru....

In all that time people have said we need this we need that ...different teams have been top their fans have said this and that...Top clubs like Rovers Dundalk Cork Shels all wanting this and needing that.... what has changed?

At this moment say someone with 20 million to spend on an El club chose Pats with these intentions:

Build Richmond into a 6k All seater.
Buy McDowells and give it to the club as a gift to ensure income.
Get Kerr in an director of football (mainly youth)
Ensure any player who doesnt make it in England has the choice of a job in ireland as a player.
Create a centre of excellence independant of the FAI

Would that be the way forward or a massive waste of 20 million?


kdjac

gimmick

^ none taken, but i really do not see how your 22 years of being a Pats fan changes anything. Perhaps this is just a wishy washy thread to begin with?

Regarding your hypothetical situation, it would be great for Pats, not for the rest of the league, much like the Chelsea situation in England.

What Im trying to say is that, if clubs were put in a position whereby having their houses in order financially would work out beneficial to them, surely it would be seen as progress. Leaving things just the way they are is too indicative of too many club boards in this country. Unless something is sone, and done soon, all the progress made in recent years will count for nought, and we wil be back in a situation like the mid 90s, with John Graces Fried Chicken sponsoring the league, with small numbers supporting it. For the first time since I started with City (1989 for the record), massive strides are being made on the pitch by various Irish clubs. But this progress is coming at a price, €400k for Shels, €160k for Cork City, that we know of etc etc etc.

I feel as if Im repeating myself at this point, but if the government offered a decent tax incentive like they do for the geegees etc, it might encourage investment from people who just see the eL as too damned expensive to go near right now. As well as the benefits mentioned throughout, of having well run clubs,a nd stability.

KdjaCL

gimmick wrote:

^ none taken, but i really do not see how your 22 years of being a Pats fan changes anything. Perhaps this is just a wishy washy thread to begin with?

Regarding your hypothetical situation, it would be great for Pats, not for the rest of the league, much like the Chelsea situation in England.

No the thread was based on the winding up notice. Exactly good for Pats but not for the rest of the league. The point of the 22 years thing was nothing has changed, what you call progress now Rovers/ Dundalk called it then with crowds you can only dream off.

gimmick wrote:

we wil be back in a situation like the mid 90s, with John Graces Fried Chicken sponsoring the league, with small numbers supporting it. For the first time since I started with City (1989 for the record), massive strides are being made on the pitch by various Irish clubs. But this progress is coming at a price, €400k for Shels, €160k for Cork City, that we know of etc etc etc.

In the mid 90s Pats had 6k at their games and 11.5k when we played you in Cork. There are 2 others to be targetted by the revenue rumours say Bohs and Drogs, afaik its actually Longford who are now struggling to pay wages and have a big tax bill coming.


Personally i dont think it will ever change, clubs will try but without the goverment/fai to back them up its not going to happen. As Cork are proving it cant be done on their own.


kdjac

gimmick

KdjaC wrote:

In the mid 90s Pats had 6k at their games and 11.5k when we played you in Cork.

Sorry to be a pedant, but that game was January 99.

I see your point, but disagree that an attitude of "its always been so" is good enough,