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NRARI, Announcement
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01-07-2006 11:48pm#1From: DAVID COMERFORD < irishrifleman@gmail.com>
Date: Jun 26, 2006 11:46 PM
Subject: Fwd: Fw: letter from David Comerford
To: NRA IRELAND < nraireland@gmail.com>
Dear fellow f-class shooters it is with regret that we send the following,
please take the time to read the following, which is corespondences between the NATIONAL RIFLE
ASSOCIATION OF THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND ( NRARI ) and the INTERNATIONAL CONFEDERATION
OF FULLBORE RIFLE ASSOCIATIONS ( ICFRA ).
The first email sent to Mr Paul Monaghan ( chairman of f-class shooting committee at ICFRA) at the
beginning of june 2006.
A reply came from Mr Stan Frost on the 24 June 2006.
The National Rifle Association of the Republic of Ireland ( NRARI ) have no bar to membership.
We feel we are being isolated.
All corespondences between the parties dealing with this matter and our views, will, and are being
released.
We are a genuine organisation, Run by Shooters for shooters.
yours in sport,
National Rifle Association of the Republic of Ireland committee.
David Comerford ( CHAIRMAN )
The following is not in the best interest of f-class shooting sports
Dear Paul,
> Hope you have an enjoyable time in Galway it is a lovely part of Ireland.Unfortunately we feel
August is too late to meet and get this matter sorted as we feel it is very important to us and we would
like to get it sorted a.s.a.p. We are prepared to meet you at your convenience anytime from the 3rd of
June from 9.30am(Saturday) perhaps at Bisley just let us know when it suits you.
>
> You have suggested "that we need to make progress in f-class so that if at all possible Eire can send
a national Team to the F Class world championship 2009. That means we have to sort out the
relationship between Eire and I.C.F.R.A"
> A couple of points to mention:
>
> 1--- We cannot enter the world championship as Eire because Eire means Ireland. We can only enter,
and wish to enter for our own country which is a soveirgn state the "Republic of Ireland." (
R.O.I.).recognised Internationaly with its own goverment, laws, head of state, Garda/police force and
army,. A lot of people are confused on this matter. We prefer to be recognised as the R.O.I not as
southern Ireland, which is actually how we refer to counties down in the south of our country, ie Cork
or Kerry.
As for Northern Ireland it does not belong to the Republic of Ireland it is in fact a provincial state
belonging to Great Britan. This identity problem is common.
> We will be competing in 2009 representing our Country the Republic of Ireland (R.O.I) in this
wonderful sport of ours.
>
> 2--In 2001 at an AGM in Dublin for the S.S.A.I (of which we were a member),we put forward a proposal
for a fullbore association to promote and represent fullbore shooting within the SSAI. To our
astonishment we were refused and turned down. What were we to do? Turn our back on fullbore
shooting, I think not, we had all worked too hard to let that happen! so instead, we worked even harder
without the help of the S.S.A.I (at that time known as the N.R.P.A.I)
>
> We are the only organisation in the R.O.I that have a range for such shooting, fully authorized by the
Irish authorities to function as a range and to facilitate fullbore shooting. We have been the only ones to
compete in long range shooting such as f-class at national and international events and long may we
continue to compete.
> We have recently shot f-class at the phoenix and we will shoot at the imperials in f-class as we did last
year, hopefully not alongside this time. We are also representing R.O.I next August in Canada ,Surely
this is evidence of our seriousness, dedication and commitment to our sport.
>
> We have already applied to I.C.F.R.A successfully as an NGB for the R.O.I
> We quote paragraph four of an e-mail sent to us on the 4 september 2005 by Mr Stan Frost, SHORTLY
AFTER THIS WE PAID OUR AFFILIATION FEE TO "ICFRA" FOR WHICH WE HAVE A RECEIPT.
The DCRA does not require ICFRA membership to compete at Ottawa, but we would recomend that you
support the international organisation. This opens the door to compete in the World Championships and
other international events. ICFRA is the International Confederation of Fullbore Rifle Associations and is
an organisation made up of fullbore shooting bodies.
We ( DCRA and ICFRA ) have had some difficulties in the past when two organisations from a single
country have asked us to recognise them as the national body.
We do not want to get involved in internal, national politics and make it a policy to recognise only one
national body.
Hence, we would welcome you into ICFRA as the national fullbore rifle govering body for the Republic of
Ireland.
If there are competing organisations, we would appreciate it if you could sort that out internaly.
What we fail to understand is why the NRAUK or anyone else wants to get involved in our internal
affairs. As for the SSAI we do not wish to discuss their internal affairs publicly but we will do so if we
have to.
>
> If you believe the SSAI are a canditate as a NGB for f-class could you point out to us where they have
ever shot f -class or any other long range events in the ROI or the world .Have they ever shot in any
long range international events? We know they have no ranges for these events or even had a desire to
compete in these events.
But suddenly you are saying to us that the SSAI have an interest in what we WANTED THEM TO DO IN
2001 at that AGM in Dublin mentioned above????
>
> I personally feel the reason we were turned down by the SSAI to promote centrefire in their
organisation is that we had a facility for it which they had not, and they feared we were too large in
membership and too financially independent for them.
>
> We are an organisation that do not bar membership and we are the only organisation that are
facilitating and promoting centrefire in particular f- class and other long range shooting disaplines.
> As you are aware we held a very successful f-class competition in April which we all enjoyed immensly
We look forward to our next one in 2007 and we hope to see you there.
>
> We the NRAI promote f-class and other long range shooting events in the ROI .No other organisations
do so.
I hope you have a better understanding of the situation now and I look forward to speaking to you
soon.
all the best,
David
>
> The following is the reply from Mr Stan Frost at ICFRA
>
Forwarded message
From: "Stan Frost" < shottist223@yahoo.co.uk >
To: <austinguerin@yahoo.co.uk> national rifle association of republic of Ireland
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 01:38:05 +0100
Subject: ICFRA Membership
Austin,
Last year when I said that ICFRA would welcome the
Republic of Ireland to join, I emphasised that ICFRA
wanted assurance that your organisation was the single
organisation representing fullbore shooting in
Ireland. Since then soem other groups have appeared
saying that they actually represent fullbore shooting
in Ireland. In my original message to you, I said that
ICFRA did not want to be put in the posiiton of acting
as arbiter for several groups seeking recognition.
ICFRA wants these issues settled internally within the
country.
Under the circumstances I think it is important that
we meet to discuss the situation. I shall be at
Bisley, staying in the Canadian Pavilion from June 30
to July 24, with the exception of a few days off camp
July 8-10. Will you be coming to Bisley at any time
during this period? I know that some of your
countrymen were staying in the Pavilion last year
during the Imperial Meeting.
Until this matter is settled, I don't see that I can
allow Ireland to act as a Council member and vote on
ICFRA matters. If you wish, while your membership is
being resolved, I can ask the DCRA to refund the money
paid.
Please let me know if we can meet. I think that would
be more productive than a continuing exchange of
e-mails.
Best regards,
Stan
>
> WE AND OUR 450 MEMBERS WISH TO REPRESENT OUR PROUD NATION IN F-CLASS AND OTHER
SHOOTING SPORTS.
>
--
N.R.A.I
Tel. +353 (0)506 54643
Mobile: +353 (0)86 823 2641
Email: nraireland@gmail.com
Web: www.nrai.ie0
Comments
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So, if I read that right, the NRPAI are now claiming to represent long range rifle shooting in Ireland and undermining the NRAI at international level?
What about the LRRAI? Are the NRPAI after absorbing them without an AGM to ratify it?
Also - why can't the NRAI choose their team from all 32 counties the way ISSF shooters can be chosen? (NI shooters can declare for the ROI team or the GB team depending on the match).0 -
What sensible people these UK people are. How wise to avoid getting involved in our squabbles. Perhaps now the interested parties in Ireland might get together and hammer out a national solution which does not depend on any single club, range, or self interest group winning out to the general detriment of the others.0
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Wasn't that already done?Leupold wrote:Perhaps now the interested parties in Ireland might get together and hammer out a national solutionsuetoniuscometh wrote:In 2001 at an AGM in Dublin for the S.S.A.I (of which we were a member),we put forward a proposal for a fullbore association to promote and represent fullbore shooting within the SSAI. To our astonishment we were refused and turned down.0 -
Sparks wrote:Wasn't that already done?
The meeting referred to was a strategy development meeting, I was one of the delegates at the meeting, while it was facilitated by the NRPAI it was run by the delegates there from all assocaitions and several shooting clubs, there were representatives from the MRC, however from recollection the following was the state of affairs:
Para 2. ref 2001 is misrepresentation of what actually happened, the NRAI did not exist in 2001 so how could they claim to be a member? From recollection while they made representation at the meeting, no substantial association existed (certainly not the NRAI), no rules , no constitution etc, it was a discussion point no more, we discussed the possibility of the full bore (no mention of f-class) being included in an existing association because the Sports Council were not in favour of more associations, this was the sentiment, no one was refused anything because nothing substantial was applied for, simply put it was one of many aspects of strategy development that was discussed and indeed from further discussions with members of the NRPAI there is no record of any further correspondence on the matter.
Seems a bit rich that after 5 years the reference to the strategy meeting is used an an excuse for the NRAI to feel left out, looks like it takes a long time for them to ramp up. Then again such an incident happening more than 5 years ago can hardly be blamed for them feeling they needed to go it alone!0 -
Go long or short it always comes around to the right place!!
Leopold I couldnt agree more with what you have said.
Sparks its time you got over it the NRPAI are now called the SSAI (GROW UP )
Just because the Midlands have a range for fullbore does not mean they can become a NGB automatically.The SSAI have been here longer than them and we represent all shooting sports in Ireland with success.
As for fullbore Nicholas Flood has represented successfully Ireland and the SSAI in fullbore without any thanks to the Midlands he achieved his goal ;that in itself says a lot.
Obviously ICFRA and the NRA(UK) have copped on to the Midlands and are now recognising a proper democratic and a non profitable organisation the SSAI.
As for the ranges in Ireland we are always welcome in Ballykinler (fullbore range)so now its time to leave the Midlands and NRAI where it belongs in the bog.They can now have all that to themselves .
The SSAI does not a need or depend on them never did or never will!!
The LLRA are the genuine long range shooters under the SSAI for Ireland.
I believe you to be correct Bob the shooter that using the meeting in 2001 as a refusal for a fullbore association is a farce!! They had no grounds or solid reasons for it.There are enough associations in the SSAI to promote F Class we are not dependent on a commercial outfit like the Midlands it is not in the best interest of our sport.They dont come close to the standards maintained at Ballykinler Range its time they got off their high horse.
They are not even affiliated to any organisation belonging to the SSAI ,nor should they be on account of their actions.0 -
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As for the ranges in Ireland we are always welcome in Ballykinler (fullbore range)so now its time to leave the Midlands and NRAI where it belongs in the bog.They can now have all that to themselves .
The SSAI does not a need or depend on them never did or never will!!
Attitudes like this tell me reconciliation is a long way off.0 -
As for the ranges in Ireland we are always welcome in Ballykinler (fullbore range)
Thanks for the update , I didn't realise that Ballykinler was a range in the Republic of Ireland ..They can now have all that to themselves .
Apart from Visiting F-Class teams from Scotland and the UK I guess.
Who were on one of our national tv programs praising the high standards and facilities on the "range in the bog" .As for fullbore Nicholas Flood has represented successfully Ireland and the SSAI in fullbore without any thanks to the Midlands
Yes well done to Nick for all his success, I wish him well.
The odd thing is , I've seen Mr Flood practice on the midland range , he was shootin beside me .
It's best to be sure of one's facts .0 -
I have read the e-mail. It is the most ungrammatical, poorly spelled, factually erroneous, confused, bombastic and excruciatingly overblown piece of writing I have yet seen from these people. ("....REPRESENT OUR PROUD NATION IN F-CLASS" and "... our Country the Republic of Ireland (R.O.I) in this wonderful sport of ours). Apart from this type of embarassing twaddle there are a minimum of 40 (a very quick reading) spelling, punctuation, grammatical and factual errors in it.
The writer is completely confused about the official, literary and popular usage of the name of his country. "R.O.I." is not a term that appears on any official documentation that I am aware of. The name of the country is "Saorstát Éireann" which translates as "Republic of Ireland"; ( "Éire" is the traditional usage). His reference to Northern Ireland as a "Provincial state that belongs to Great Britain" seems specifically designed to inflame Northern Ireland shooters. Northern Ireland is part of Britain; it is not a “state” and is definitely not a "Provincial State", whatever that is. For a man arguing against politics in sport he manages to do a good line in inflammatory political rhetoric. I suspect he has been reading and is attempting to ape the literary style of Colonel Jeff Cooper in "Guns and Ammo"; hence the overblown, bombastic, pseudo-patriotic style which would be funny if it were grammatical and were properly spelled but is embarrassing when presented in this context by a man who is clearly out of his depth. Our writer's multiple appeals to patriotic sentiment and the capitalised subject line about politics will, I fear, be seen as insulting by a British recipient. His main point seems to be that I.C.F.R.A. are being political and unreasonable in questioning the credentials of an organisation whose only mandate is self-awarded and which is not recognised by established National Governing Bodies, which has appointed officers, not elected ones, no constitution that I am aware of and which selects teams with out even a nod towards fair and transparent selection processes.
Then there is the matter of a bar to membership. The fact is they HAVE barred people. They are not hard to find. I know several.
At a personal and professional level I am embarrassed by this communication and its author. Given our image problems in the world at present I fear it reinforces racial stereotypes of the Irish and shows us in an abominably bad light. It contains factual omissions, lies, confused thinking and faulty logic and is of a literary standard that would earn a severe reprimand from the employer of any clerical employee that produced it or a zero grade if presented by a Word-Processing student.0 -
[FONT="]Apart from this type of embarassing twaddle there are a minimum of 40 (a very quick reading) spelling, punctuation, grammatical and factual errors in it.
BTW... The correct spelling is [/FONT][FONT="]embarrassing[/FONT]
[FONT="]
In exchanges such as these, we can all make typing errors .
I suggest we stick to a debate based on the content, rather than the form.
[/FONT]
Without knowing the full circumstances of each case, it is difficult to comment on this statement, perhaps there were breaches of range safety policy. That would result in a request to leave quickly…. and rightly so. If you know and shoot with many banned shooters, I suggest that you should be more careful of the company you keep.they HAVE barred people. They are not hard to find. I know several.
Have you been barred yourself? .. I would be interested in hearing the details.
[FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT="]To be honest, if I had no knowledge of the MNSCI range and the people involved with it , I would imagine it to be some kind of hell hole in a bog, run by ego crazed idiots. My personal experience has been of a collection of dedicated, helpful people , who are willing to give freely of their time and effort to assist newcomers and to promote the sport of shooting in Ireland in all it's forms. By their own efforts they have built a world class shooting facility.
For the record , I speak as an ordinary member of the club and I am not an organiser or spokesperson for the club , any opinions expressed ..are my own.
[/FONT]0 -
jaycee wrote:To be honest, if I had no knowledge of the MNSCI range and the people involved with it , I would imagine it to be some kind of hell hole in a bog, run by ego crazed idiots. My personal experience has been of a collection of dedicated, helpful people , who are willing to give freely of their time and effort to assist newcomers and to promote the sport of shooting in Ireland in all it's forms. By their own efforts they have built a world class shooting facility.
For the record , I speak as an ordinary member of the club and I am not an organiser or spokesperson for the club , any opinions expressed ..are my own
[/FONT]
I have to agree, and John-Paul is one sound guy!0 -
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Tasco, they can call themselves whatever they want. The inescapable fact remains that the people involved changed the constitution of the NRPAI without the amount of notice of this that the constitution of the NRPAI stated was required. Thus the AGM was invalid, and the namechange is invalid. Would you care to see the relevant section of the NRPAI constitution? I can have it scanned in and posted here by tomorrow if you wish.tasco wrote:Sparks its time you got over it the NRPAI are now called the SSAI (GROW UP )
And just because the NRPAI is an umbrella body comprising four bodies purely for the sake of accomodating the Irish Sports Council and which is not a National Governing Body and which is prohibited from becoming one, doesn't mean they get to undermine those trying to set up an NGB, especially when they wouldn't allow the people involved to try to work within the system.Just because the Midlands have a range for fullbore does not mean they can become a NGB automatically.
"We"?The SSAI have been here longer than them and we represent all shooting sports in Ireland with success.
Was that a coming out?
Certainly does say a lot - Nick trains in the Midlands.As for fullbore Nicholas Flood has represented successfully Ireland and the SSAI in fullbore without any thanks to the Midlands he achieved his goal ;that in itself says a lot.
Excuse me, but that's daft.Obviously ICFRA and the NRA(UK) have copped on to the Midlands and are now recognising a proper democratic and a non profitable organisation the SSAI.
1) It reads as the NRPAI undermining an NGB internationally, not an international body making inquiries.
2) The NRPAI is neither democratic nor a non-profit organisation. No shooter gets a vote in the NRPAI's policies. Shooters elect their NGB personnel within the NTSA, the NASRC, the NSAI and the Pony Club tetrathlon association, and those four bodies nominate members of their committees to go to the NRPAI committee. At the first meeting of the NRPAI after the NRPAI AGM, those nominees then decide who's the secretary, chairman and so forth. That's not a democratic process, it's two steps removed from it. And the NRPAI is not a non-profit organisation, it's a private club. Non-profit organisations have a different set of operating rules and run under specific legislation.
So you want to run Irish fullbore shooting from a UK military base, whose civilian shooting is run under NRA (GB) rules and where you'd never be more than a guest?As for the ranges in Ireland we are always welcome in Ballykinler (fullbore range)so now its time to leave the Midlands and NRAI where it belongs in the bog.They can now have all that to themselves .
Excuse me, but when was the NRPAI AGM where the four members with votes voted to add the LRRAI to the NRPAI?The LLRA are the genuine long range shooters under the SSAI for Ireland.
I was there. They did. And there were no grounds to refuse them. And you now obviously agree with that, if you're now adding the LRRAI to the NRPAI.I believe you to be correct Bob the shooter that using the meeting in 2001 as a refusal for a fullbore association is a farce!! They had no grounds or solid reasons for it.
Neither is the IPSA. Are they next on the list after the Midlands?They are not even affiliated to any organisation belonging to the SSAI0 -
The NRAI might not have existed, but the Midlands Rifle Club did and that's who the lads in the room said they were representing. They weren't saying "we're the NGB, play with us or else", they were saying they needed an NGB and could they work with the NRPAI. They were turned down on the grounds that the ISC wouldn't recognise another NGB. Which was misleading, as the ISC only dealt with the NRPAI and didn't care how many NGBs were contained within the NRPAI. And as the NRPAI seems to have now taken the LRRAI under it's wing, it would seem they agree with that analysis, no?BOBTHESHOOTER wrote:Para 2. ref 2001 is misrepresentation of what actually happened, the NRAI did not exist in 2001 so how could they claim to be a member?
Sorry, wrong. I was there, I heard what was said, and they were most certainly refused. Or does the word "No" not mean what it used to?no one was refused anything0 -
Its because of BULLSH!T like this that has IRISH Shooting in disspar,
speaking for myself, I dont want A@@holes like them speaking for me and telling people/state what i want!, The midlands has done alot for Fullbore shooting in ireland more then anyone else!
BTW that club is ran and funded by members! its managed by shooters for shooters!
Some SH!T needs to be done, If ireland is to get its own inte-Teams for F-Class, IPSC"Pistol,Rifle,Shotgun" etc, something needs to be done to clear house! ATM most of the partys are ran by people out to make a few euro and not for the shooters of ireland!0 -
Sparks wrote:The NRAI might not have existed, but the Midlands Rifle Club did and that's who the lads in the room said they were representing. They weren't saying "we're the NGB, play with us or else", they were saying they needed an NGB and could they work with the NRPAI. They were turned down on the grounds that the ISC wouldn't recognise another NGB. Which was misleading, as the ISC only dealt with the NRPAI and didn't care how many NGBs were contained within the NRPAI. And as the NRPAI seems to have now taken the LRRAI under it's wing, it would seem they agree with that analysis, no?
Sorry, wrong. I was there, I heard what was said, and they were most certainly refused. Or does the word "No" not mean what it used to?
Mark is right! They were refused on the spot!0 -
Originally posted by mifyah1"they HAVE barred people. They are not hard to find. I know several."
Just in the interest of fair play and in the spirit of transparency,
I believe in hearing both sides of any story.
You say several people have been banned, if that is the case, can you name them and give us some details of the incidents which lead to a ban being applied?0 -
In an earlier post, I suggested that the way forward was for the parties involved to get together and sort out the issues. It is not hard to see a shape for a solution which would enable the SSAI,LRRAI,MNSCI etc. to define a structure meeting the Sports Council's requirements, which uses the existing organisations strengths and facilities and thus put forward a united front to the international bodies concerned. Unfortunately all I can see in the above debate is the voices of the most entrenched of the individuals, digging deeper in their trenches with encouragement from the moderator who does not know the meaning of the word. We will not solve this by looking backward . It is all too easy to attack and complain when you are not sitting opposite the people you are writing about. How about a little vision and generosity of perspective?0
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The fact is sparks the NRAI are put to bed , finished. We can go on and on about it its not going to change the fact that the SSAI are the NGB pure and simple.
Jaycee I know of at least one who was banned a well known journalist for shooters on this Island who wrote on many occasions about his views on shooting politics.This particular man was not afraid to express his views about anything concerning shooting and all our ranges belonging to the SSAI. He promotes the SSAI its club and its ranges!!Guess what he is banned makes you think doesnt it ??
We all saw the resignation letter of the PRO of the SSAI where he expressed about the hostile treatment that he received in the Midlands and this is another man who puts in a lot of work for shooters in this country!
As for John-Paul being a sound guy I wonder? "Shotgun John" more like it! or maybe "ban them all John" would be a better name so then he can be king of all bogmen in the Midlands. For what its worth if any one gets banned by this man (which he has no right to do on his own) make sure it is in writing as to the reasons for the ban.
John-Paul is one of the instigators of the Midlands and the NRAI (that is no longer a NGB)he is thicker than he looks Like the old saying goes "You can take the man out of the bog but you cant take the bog out of the man"!!!0 -
DDLR wrote:Mark is right! They were refused on the spot!
AGM 2001 Correct, refused correct, well if people were actually there who heard that the MRC were refused (refused what exactly though) then one cannot deny this and I will not.
That aside, attached are the proceedings from the NRPAI Strategy Development Meeting 2002, 5th October, at Seven Oaks in Carlow. One will note that this is indeed a very detailled document that was put in place to develop a strategy for the development of all shooting sports in Ireland, one should note that there was considerable variety of clubs assocaiations and individuals represented, none the least the MRC by Jim Griffin and John-Paul Craven.
Now it is really hard to understand that given the forum and given the focus of the meeting "Strategy Development" it seems to me very difficult to understand why there was no specific reference in the detail of the strategy document to consider the development of an NRAI like assocaition, given that the two principals were there from MRC.
It is clear that this is a smoke screen to give crediability to the position taken by the NRAI in trying to justify going it alone. However it is hard to see how it would hold water.
Leupold is quite right, the past should be put exactly where it is, lets get on with the development of the sport, if a more cohesive approach can be agreed it should be agreed, however it appears that the expulsion of members from the MRC is becoming a real issue, I understand from football that at least you get a yellow card, in MRC it appears that the red card is being used a little hastily. If one trangresses what appears to be safety policy it is good practice to correct the issue in the first instance and not expel individuals, this I hear is happening as recently as this week-end.0 -
It's funny isn't it how we get a new user called Tasco, who immediately launches into a personal attack. I'm curious if there might just be an agenda perhaps.
I will remind all users, keep it civil.0 -
I normally abstain from getting involved in the "discussions" on this website , but after reading the Statement made by the NRAI , I find myself embarassed and compelled to post a reply .
The Spokesperson for the NRAI or NRARI or what ever they decide to call themselves , should be ashamed of himself. The mail posted above , sent to an international governing body for shooting sports , has embarrased the whole Irish shooting community internationally . The Mail is both agressive in its tone and ignorant in its statements . This comming from a body here in Ireland that claims to represent the interests of shooters and who are trying to affiliate to ICFRA , write a mail that is so insulting to ICFRA and so agressive toward them , it is hardly surprising that they will not entertain the affiliation .
Furthermore the members of this public website fail to see the damage that this mail could do to Irish shooting , and just snipe at eachother and our own NGBs . It is about time that we "copped on" to ourselves and stopped sniping at eachother , perhaps to get on with the important tasks ,like shooting to our best ability and representing Ireland as we should , without making stupid embarassing statements and by trying to co-operate with each other and our existing NGBs .
Maybe some of the damage can be repaired , His statement about the difference between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland was unnecessary and insulting to Northern Irish shooters who have every right to represent either ROI or NI as they see fit .
I have noticed that he has not made any reply to his statement , perhaps this is a wise move as removing one foot to put the other one in is a delicate operation , perhaps better left to someone better qualified to speak for Irish Shooting . :mad: :mad: :mad:0 -
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I find it equally funny how many new users seem to be unable to spell [FONT="]the word "embarrassed "civdef wrote:It's funny isn't it how we get a new user called Tasco, who immediately launches into a personal attack. I'm curious if there might just be an agenda perhaps.
Posted by [/FONT]appauled
Posted by TascoI normally abstain from getting involved in the "discussions" on this website , but after reading the Statement made by the NRAI , I find myself embarassed and compelled to post a reply .
Well it makes me count to one .. We were told here that several were banned.Jaycee I know of at least one who was banned a well known journalist for shooters on this Island who wrote on many occasions about his views on shooting politics.This particular man was not afraid to express his views about anything concerning shooting and all our ranges belonging to the SSAI. He promotes the SSAI its club and its ranges!!Guess what he is banned makes you think doesnt it ??
So what were the events that led to this ban..?
Posted by appauled
I have friends north of the border , In the UK , Scotland , Wales , America and you know what all these places have in common ...?His statement about the difference between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland was unnecessary and insulting to Northern Irish shooters who have every right to represent either ROI or NI as they see fit .
None of them are in the Republic of Ireland !
What's insulting about that ... Do you think If I phone a pal in Ohio and tell him he's not living in Ireland ..he'll be shocked , Insulted ..upset with me..
Hardly .. !
We are discussing the development of shooting in this part of Ireland , the Republic ..The 26 counties ..Because forthcoming legal changes to our CJB aren't going to really affect anyone else. Before anyone thinks that I've gone off topic .. consider this .. Shooting in Ireland is only getting back on it's feet after a long pause , we need to build up the home grown ranges and shooting venues.
If someone else in Ireland want's to get themselves organised and build another 600 meter range , or a 1000 meter range .. good luck to them , I wish them every success .. But do it in the 26 .. Our bit . I welcome visiting shooters with open arms and nothing would make me more proud that to represent my country .. Ireland .. If I'm ever good enough or lucky enough.
I expect that people from other countries would feel the same about their native land. Where's the insult in that ....?
He would hardly be likely to reply .. to himself..!I have noticed that he has not made any reply to his statement
Posted by Bobtheshooter
If one transgresses safe conduct rules .. it is best practice to remove any risk of danger Immediately . BE SAFE FIRST whatever anyones views here on how shooting in Ireland should progress .. this one is written in stone.If one trangresses what appears to be safety policy it is good practice to correct the issue in the first instance and not expel individuals, this I hear is happening as recently as this week-end.
This weekend ..?
I was present on the range both Saturday and Sunday , I heard nothing of this .
On Saturday I spoke to people involved in the formal 50meter target shooting event , I spoke to people shooting fullbore on the 100meter , 200meter , 300meter and the 600meter ranges . I spoke to some of the people involved in the Hunter proficiency testing , which was very busy all day long . I also spoke to many people shooting .22 and full bore pistols on the Pistol range. Nobody mentioned a problem Saturday.
Sunday was pretty much the same ..except warmer. Because of this I made a number of trips into the clubhouse for either a coffee and a snack ..or a cold can from the fridge. I was there all day ..both days .. most enjoyable.
So if you were there and witnessed a problem .. please explain.
I notice a lot of references to "the bog" in some posts , I don't find that a bad description , bogs are very fertile places full of life and all sorts of interesting things grow very well there and nowhere else .
At the moment we have a lovely crop of shooters coming along nicely.
It also strikes me as funny how a place can be so bad ,so badly run.. and so popular at the same time.0 -
Actually, it would be hard. The NRPAI doesn't meet the Sports Council's requirements for an NGB and I would guess that it's only accepted with it's current rules as it is an umbrella body and thus a bit of an akward comprimise at the best of times.Leupold wrote:It is not hard to see a shape for a solution which would enable the SSAI,LRRAI,MNSCI etc. to define a structure meeting the Sports Council's requirements
Personal experience says otherwise Leupold. I've found that people find it remarkably easy to discard civility face-to-face, just as much as online.We will not solve this by looking backward . It is all too easy to attack and complain when you are not sitting opposite the people you are writing about.
I think that given the past events, there would have to be a fairly serious gesture made by the NRPAI before that could happen, and given that this thread shows them stating that they've chosen sides and attacked the NRAI at the international level, I don't think that'll be forthcoming.How about a little vision and generosity of perspective?0 -
Oh dear. Tasco, the NRPAI's constitution prohibits it from being an NGB. And until someone else comes up with a long range fullbore range, I think the NRAI's claim carries a lot more real weight than anyone elses.tasco wrote:The fact is sparks the NRAI are put to bed , finished. We can go on and on about it its not going to change the fact that the SSAI are the NGB pure and simple.
Was this the same columnist (use the right word Tasco) who wrote on one page that the DoJ and Gardai had "lost it" and on the next was posing in a nearly full-page photo with his bayonet collection? And who in this month's issue identified a shooter in the Midlands and claimed this shooter was using a sound moderator illegally (which is libel, by the way).I know of at least one who was banned a well known journalist for shooters on this Island who wrote on many occasions about his views on shooting politics.This particular man was not afraid to express his views about anything concerning shooting and all our ranges belonging to the SSAI. He promotes the SSAI its club and its ranges!!Guess what he is banned makes you think doesnt it ??
I think we've got a whole thread or two on that topic, and can leave further discussion of it to there.We all saw the resignation letter of the PRO of the SSAI where he expressed about the hostile treatment that he received in the Midlands and this is another man who puts in a lot of work for shooters in this country!
And that's in full breach of the boards charter. That's your only warning tasco. Once more and you'll be banned for a week.As for John-Paul being a sound guy I wonder? "Shotgun John" more like it! or maybe "ban them all John" would be a better name so then he can be king of all bogmen in the Midlands. For what its worth if any one gets banned by this man (which he has no right to do on his own) make sure it is in writing as to the reasons for the ban.
John-Paul is one of the instigators of the Midlands and the NRAI (that is no longer a NGB)he is thicker than he looks Like the old saying goes "You can take the man out of the bog but you cant take the bog out of the man"!!!
I wouldn't have thought so, given the reports I heard back from the NTSA representatives at the meeting such as it starting off with the NTSA chairman being told he had no place there and after some argument, being relegated to taking minutes. The general impression of the meeting was that it did not live up to its well-minded stated purpose.BOBTHESHOOTER wrote:It is clear that this is a smoke screen to give crediability to the position taken by the NRAI in trying to justify going it alone.
Bob, the very first post in this thread, and the follow-ups, clearly state that the NRPAI has undermined a legitimate NGB and taken sides in a dispute between the LRRAI and the NRAI and once again abused the NRPAI constitution in adding a new member body to the NRPAI without an AGM! How can that be called the past? Are we meant to forget anything that didn't happen in the past ten minutes or something?Leupold is quite right, the past should be put exactly where it is
I strongly agree. So let the NRAI and LRRAI settle their dispute by competition as to which does the more good for the standard of the sport in Ireland, not by who knew who better and who wrote the more devious letters to the authorities!lets get on with the development of the sport
A quick email reveals that an estimated total of one person has been banned from MRC, and that another left in a fit of pique because the committee there didn't do what he wanted them to do. And so far, noone else seems to have contradicted this.it appears that the expulsion of members from the MRC is becoming a real issue
I think you'd better be more specific Bob. Calling a fullbore rifle/pistol range lax on safety would be a pretty good way to shut it down, so if you're going to make the accusation in public, I think you should make it specifically instead of casting aspersions.If one trangresses what appears to be safety policy it is good practice to correct the issue in the first instance and not expel individuals, this I hear is happening as recently as this week-end.
I'm a part of that community, and I don't feel ashamed. I don't even feel involved and neither will any of the airgun or smallbore shooters, I'd bet.appauled wrote:The mail posted above , sent to an international governing body for shooting sports , has embarrased the whole Irish shooting community internationally .
The email suggests that it's the NRPAI doing the sniping on behalf of the LRRAI, rather than the shooters at the NGBs.Furthermore the members of this public website fail to see the damage that this mail could do to Irish shooting , and just snipe at eachother and our own NGBs .
To make the point for the record, sock puppets (that is, duplicate accounts used by one person to make it seem like there's a discussion going on when there isn't) is against board rules, and that's why your other account was banned.not surprised wrote:I'm not surprised at being banned for my last post , it makes me feel as if i was in MNSCI ,( Being banned for speaking your mind )
You weren't. We've even withheld from enforcing the clear and easy-to-read charter in the past rather than ban people for being uncivil when we felt it important to get both sides out.I thought that this forum was a place where Irish shooters could express themselves openly , on important shooting topics . I must have been mistaken .
No post on this site borders slander. All of them border libel. But so long as none cross that border, then they aren't defamatory. And frankly, it's a bit more complex than that, and yes, boards.ie admins have done considerable legal research into this in the past and no, nothing in here's come close to the line yet. As opposed to, for instance, the above-mentioned article in the latest Digest by Cal.I have seen posts on this site that blatently border slander
Calm down. Only your other duplicate account got banned. You can still post as your original., and the poster was not banned , but when I state some serious facts , pertaining to a post on this site in this thread, I get banned for life
Consider yourself informed as to the contrary.As far as I am aware , I have not broken any of the Boards.ie rules but I have been Banned.
Why on earth would he do that when the NRPAI is clearly the one at fault?In my opinion Mr Commorford should immediately write a letter of apology to ICFRA and all the Governing Bodies here in ROI and those in NI , to try to limit the damage that he has caused , then he should resign from his position in NRAI .
Frankly, were I Mr. Commerford, I'd be writing to the Irish Sports Council demanding that the NRPAI be held accountable, not the other way round.
Banned for life from your duplicate account for faking a discussion you mean. And I note that your original posts are still up here for all to read.I am sure that as soon as the administrator sees this message that I will be banned again , but if nothing else comes of this post , other than we all getting our good reputation back within the international shooting community , it will all be worth while .
Signed by , Appauled ( Banned for life , for stating the facts ):rolleyes:
BTW, did the NRPAI give you such an avenue to express your opinions?0 -
Sparks wrote:Was this the same columnist (use the right word Tasco) who wrote on one page that the DoJ and Gardai had "lost it" and on the next was posing in a nearly full-page photo with his bayonet collection? And who in this month's issue identified a shooter in the Midlands and claimed this shooter was using a sound moderator illegally (which is libel, by the way).
Considering the posts you made in the sandbox regarding FLAG doesn’t the above statement have a touch of "the cat telling the dog it's got a hairy ar*se"?appauled wrote:The Spokesperson for the NRAI or NRARI or what ever they decide to call themselves , should be ashamed of himself. The mail posted above , sent to an international governing body for shooting sports , has embarrased the whole Irish shooting community internationally . The Mail is both agressive in its tone and ignorant in its statements . This comming from a body here in Ireland that claims to represent the interests of shooters and who are trying to affiliate to ICFRA , write a mail that is so insulting to ICFRA and so agressive toward them , it is hardly surprising that they will not entertain the affiliation .
You all have to admit that email was unreal, like something a child would write.
Does your mammy know your out Mr Comerford?0 -
Not really. I said I'd seen a letter that wasn't flattering to Declan and refuted a point he made; Cal said he knew that an identified someone was committing a criminal offence under the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990 (s.7), punishable by a fine of up to £1000 and up to five years in jail, not to mention the loss of your firearms for another few years after that, your job, and possibly quite a few other things as well.sidneyreilly wrote:Considering the posts you made in the sandbox regarding FLAG doesn’t the above statement have a touch of "the cat telling the dog it's got a hairy ar*se"?
It's a different kettle of fish to be honest sidney.
You know, I'm getting a tad tired of comments on spelling and grammar. We could sit here and say, yes, the spelling was awful in that letter. But given that the only people complaining about it so far have all shown a poor grasp of constructing arguments in english themselves, I think it wouldn't do much about the substance of the arguments on either side. Spelling and grammar count, especially in a press release or funding proposal. They don't, however, qualify as a reason to select one body over another as the NGB for a sport.You all have to admit that email was unreal, like something a child would write.0 -
Why do most threads descend into backward looking slanging and dissection fests? Is Shooting unique or all the other fora the same? The opening post on this thread, although unintended, was a wake up call to sort out the impasse on full bore shooting. I understand that the extreme entrenched views on both sides come out and that the "hurlers on the ditch" like their say but, if we can ignore the slanging and look at the arguments , then it is not difficult to see a way forward.
1. NRARI position:
a) We have the best range.
b) We are active in full bore shooting nationally and internationally
c) We have achieved international recognition-now withdrawn.
d) The NRPAI turned us down when we wanted to work with them.
2. NRPAI position:
a) We are the recognised governing body for rifle and pistol shooting in Ireland.
b)We are active in full bore shooting nationally and internationally.
c)We helped the MNSCI get set up with advice etc and were surprised when they wanted to go it alone.There was no real debate on this and a remark at a meeting was used as an excuse to go it alone.
3. LRRAI position:
a)We set up because the MNSCI attitude was insular and they did not appear to want to work within established structures.
b) We are the most experienced full bore shooters in Ireland having competed internationally for many years before the NRARI existed.
So if you add all of this up, and remove the duplication then the solution is as follows:
1. The NRPAI/MRARI/LRRAI get into a room.
2. They agree to set up a full bore group, called whatever, which is taken into the NRPAI structure, via an AGM or EGM
3. This group is officered by people from all sides-selected for experience, energy and commitment.
4. Shooting venues are selected and a competition schedule agreed, especially for the selection of international teams.
5. The appropriate letters are written to the International bodies sorting out the recognition issues.
Before the "hurlers" jump in to say that this is naive, they may be right but ,if you think about it, it has to happen this way or the problem will never go away. All it takes is for the main players to recognize this and for all of us shooters to make it clear to them that this is what we want. So get talking now to whoever you know, in whatever group.0 -
That seems like a very sensible solution Leupold. Something tells me that other than the very entrenched views held by a couple of prominent people, the vast majority of shooters just want to shoot, ansd would be glad to get rid of all this stupid political scutter which bedevils the sport.0
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Leupold, it's a fairly solid analysis, but I think that the data you started from was missing a point or two - namely, where in all of it does the NRPAI's support of the LRRAI, and the undermining of the NRAI internationally, fit into it?
Because when you consider that, what you see is a different sequence of events, namely that:- the MRC went to the NRPAI and asked to set up an NGB within the NRPAI
- the NRPAI refused them (and it wasn't a mere comment in a meeting, it was a request that was turned down flat and with more than a bit of condesencion)
- the MRC went away and formed the NRAI and the MNSCI and started shooting and got recognised by the international body
- then the NRPAI got annoyed as they weren't in charge and then someone wrote to the international body with a formal complaint.
So your course of action requires a valid and legitimate NGB, one well liked by the shooters from everything I hear, should be sidelined and badly treated - and that bad treatment forgotten - in the interests of expediency and pragmatism, merely because the NRPAI is now willing to take over from them.
Look, I'd prefer it if all the problems in shooting admin just went away as well, but if the people in the NRPAI are behaving in that fashion, then simply saying you'll forget the past and let them run things (especially when they're not a national governing body), that's just foolish and asking for more trouble further down the line. Look how badly poor management has affected ISSF target shooting in Ireland - scores are down, the attendance at the nationals was very low and pretty much dominated entirely by one club, we've seen precisely one shooter from up North come to a match down South in the entire year, and shooters are in general pissed off with how they've been treated. That's not how you want the sport to go, believe me, especially when fullbore shooting of this type is so young.0 -
I had hoped that , in trying to be as objective as possible, I might draw out some non partisan comments. Thankyou for your's Civdef. But I see that you Sparks are still trying to rake over the past. Your hatred for the SSAI( and I suspect any body that attempts to organise anything, especially shooting, in a way you do not like), is all too plain to see, every day in this forum. If I go back to my earlier question about what makes this forum as political and divisive as it is, then it appears that you set the tone. How about stepping back from this thread and letting the full bore shooters have their say?0
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I'm a part of that community, and I don't feel ashamed. I don't even feel involved and neither will any of the airgun or smallbore shooters, I'd bet.
Sparks if you dont feel ashamed by that email that represented a so called 'national body'and shooting in ireland then what would make you feel ashamed? You do however state that you dont feel involved therefore why are involving yourself - maybe you should leave this one to those actually concerned with these issues. Of course it does give you another chance to snipe at your favourite body the SSAI and your fav. columnist.Why not do us all a favour and move on but then when you are a compulsive obsessive it is probably impossible (Now I'm probably barred!!!!):rolleyes:0
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